OTD geirim and BTs: do you think if you picked a different hashkafa you’d still be frum?

Question/Discussion

For a variety of reasons I converted Orthodox in an out of town yeshivish community that had a Lakewood style kollel. A kiruv rabbi whose Hebrew classes I went to said he saw me more in a yishuv in Israel, following that derech. I remained yeshivish until I started pushing the envelope and ID’d as modox because I wanted to wear short skirts and sleeves. I eventually stopped keeping Shabbos and view myself now as traditional.

Sometimes I wonder if I always started out modox or even open orthodox, would I have remained frum to some degree. I basically quit organized Judaism for a few years unless spending time with my OTD’s partner’s frum family and have recently been branching out to explore Reform and open orthodoxy.

Having gone through what I did in the yeshivish community and seeing all of misogyny, hypocrisy, and everything else…I don’t think I can buy back into frumkeit even if it’s more liberal this time. But as I meet more open Orthodox Jews who don’t subscribe to the BS parts (I know you can’t entirely separate the good from the bad) and still keep Shabbos, TH, kosher, etc I envy the sense of community they have. I do miss the community and the fulfilment I had from Shabbos sometimes but it feels tainted now.

Anyone else relate? I had other people who chose Orthodoxy come to mind in asking this but of course totally welcome FFB perspectives too. Also would love to hear how other OTD geirim now ID. I still consider myself Jewish, partly because my paternal grandfather was Jewish despite not ID’ing as such, but more so because I’ve spent more time in the Jewish world than non Jewish at this point.

in exjewby little-rosie

95%

26d

Accurate_Wonder9380

26d

I was constantly told that modox Judaism was evil, not according to the Torah, and basically one step away from being irreligious. So I didn’t exactly have the opportunity to be modox and was pressured to be very frum.

Honestly a lot the same crap that happens in chareidi circles also happen in modox ones, just to a lesser intensity. There’s still rampant misogyny and homophobia because that’s what the religious doctrine calls for. I have no idea about open-orthodoxy and what it’s like.

Also, those of us who became frum and then went OTD are constantly told that if we never became “as frum as we did” then we would have never went OTD at all. But becoming frum as a BT/ger isn’t pick and choose at all. You’re constantly pressured and judged to be more frum or else you’re accused not taking yiddishkeit seriously and not accepted within the community. BTs/geirim have insanely high and often unrealistic standards and expectations placed on them by people born into it.

At the end of the day, being more modern within orthodoxy is still being in a high demand religion within a somewhat close community, even if you don’t get told how fun gehinnom will be for you because you showed your knees every once in a while or that you have a TV in the house.

clumpypasta

25d

"Also, those of us who became frum and then went OTD are constantly told that if we never became “as frum as we did” then we would have never went OTD at all."

So I'm not the only one that heard this? My hell years were in Lakewood and I often heard that if I moved to Passaic or Baltimore, I would have stayed frum.

What the hell? I didn't leave because I wanted to indulge in "taivos" that modox/less yeshivishe varieties of frumkeit would allow me. I didn't want to use the eiruv, wear shorter skirts, let some of my hair show, use less strict hechsherim, eat fish in a restaurant, do fewer bedikos for hilchos niddah.....What an offensive suggestion! How belittling of our values.

I left because I came to the conclusion that the whole thing isn't true. If it isn't true, it isn't true. If there is a god that has a fit if I eat meat he doesn't approve of, are you suggesting that I bargain with him so that he will tell me I can eat OU meat which is cheaper than Satmar shchita? I chose the version of this nutcase god that requires mikvah but is less into bedikos?If he's not there, he's not there. If this is all a fantasy, then what are we doing?

Forgive the rant. And thank you for bringing this up.

Remarkable-Evening95

26d

First off, when I was ready to leave, I got far away from any frum community.

Secondly, I typically don’t allow myself to consider the “woulda coulda shoulda” because at the end of the day, I didn’t.

Third, while I was exposed to other flavors of orthodoxy, of which there are many in Israel, my personality does tend toward certain approaches more than others, typically more extreme or bi-chromal. On top of that, I spent many hours thinking and studying and looking for the “most” true version of Yiddishkeit, which is exactly where I ended up and is exactly what gave me the worst, most deadening experience I’ve ever had. In fact, in my particular path, our rebbe said he wanted “chassidim metuganim”, literally “fried chassidim/followers”, in other words the experience of being his follower was meant to be maximally unpleasant.

AdministrativeNews39

25d

Curious why you still consider this Rebbis path “the most true version” of Yiddishkeit.

Remarkable-Evening95

25d

I don’t currently. I’m not even sure I remember my birur process. It’s hard to put into words.

Upbeat_Teach6117

ex-MO

26d

For many years, I was convinced I'd have stayed frum consistently if my parents had kept me at the local MO school rather than transferring me to Bais Yaakov (which, admittedly, was hell for me).

After going back-and-forth with religiosity in my teens and twenties, I lived and believed in Modern Orthodoxy for the first half of my thirties.

As time went by, though, I realized that being frum - any kind of frum - wasn't right for me. My problems with Judaism didn't go away as a result of living a more "open-minded" lifestyle. In fact, I felt horribly trapped because the MO philosophy produced constant and obvious cognitive dissonance.

Princess-She-ra

26d

I (60sF) try not to play the "what if" game. I understand why we do - but in the end, you don't know what might have been, you can only guess.

I was raised MO, a more lenient in some ways, but those same people I grew up with mostly went yeshivish ... So I didn't encounter the hypocrisy, gossip etc from home but I definitely encountered it in a MO community.

But my disillusionment stemmed from a basic belief (or lack thereof). It didn't matter to me if people were hypocritical or mean or whatever. It was entirely about my relationship with the religion/god etc.

Honestly, there are many good folks out there -jewish and non Jewish. There are communities, volunteer groups, gyms, work, etc where you can find purpose and meaning.

Low-Frosting-3894

26d

I’ve tried it all (or at least most of it). You have to ignore some part of your logical brain for any form of Orthodoxy.

randomperson17723

ex-Chabad

26d

I grew up Chabad. It is entirely possible that i would have still been frum had i been raised modox or something. It's hard to know.

SilverBBear

26d

I should have picked a hashkafa that doesn't see protecting its own prestige as more important than protecting the vulnerable they always claim they have committed to care for. Oh shit there isn't one.

magavte_lanata

ex-MO

24d

I converted "left wing" modern orthodox. They were still sexist, homophobic, and racist. I could not have stayed. The "community" and "warmth" was all chauvinism and superiority.

These-Dog5986

26d

I don’t understand why people convert in. Like I get why frum people believe all the crap but why would someone from the outside be like “yep, that seems true and not at all extreme” I suppose it’s like joining a cult, no one does it on purpose.

little-rosie

26d

A lot of the resources potential converts use to educate themselves about orthodoxy come from kiruv orgs because they’re the most accessible. We all know how good kiruv orgs are at explaining things in ways that don’t show how extreme they are or play it down. Looking back, yeah I’m shocked I didn’t realize how extreme the community I was joining is. But it was all explained away to me to be more palatable

Accurate_Wonder9380

26d

From what I’ve heard from geirim, I agree with you about how the religion is presented in a really specific and palatable way. Also the fact that converts (who aren’t in it for marriage) truly believe in everything and truly feel this is the life path meant for them to connect to god.

I also noticed that the community can treat converts like total and complete crap under the guise of testing their sincerity and everybody will nod along and justify it. But because converts believe it’s the truth, they just go along with it and are gaslit into thinking it’s all a test hashem and they should actually be thankful they aren’t just completely shunned out and ignored altogether. Again, from what I’ve noticed maybe your experience was different.

BTs don’t get it as bad in this department, people want to mekarev us already so of course nobody goes the route of testing our sincerity and instead they pretend everything is actually perfect up-front to rope us into their beliefs. The double standards are insane and unfair.