notesfrompoland.com/2024/05/16/warsaw-bans-display-of-religious-symbols-in-city-hall/
Warsaw bans religious symbols in city hall and require staff to respect preferred pronouns
NewsPolish is already gendered language and I don't think gender neutral unpronounceable written forms like "robiłxm" will ever be common - usual reaction is similar to Latinos reaction to "Latinx". This topic is not even worth media attention.
This action is pretty much electorate mobilization before EP elections. Turnout is forecast to be low so everyone is pretty much going full polarization as only next election matters.
Next year Trzaskowski will probably hide this topic as in presidential election he woul need to convince church goers or once caring about symbols.
The only thing I can imagine not sounding too awkward to me is second person plural - e.g. "co robiliście" - but it has it's own downside of echoing PRL ("co robiliście, towarzyszu" was literally "what were you doing, comrade").
Even here you have a "problem" - "robiliście" is already masculine/default while "robiłyście" is feminine (aka Latino/Latina problem).
It's not even worth attention - it's just a dumb copy paste of English language problem to other languages.
Well, I would argue that since for a mixed-gender group you would also have "co robiliście", then it's the proper one when you don't want to explicitly assume gender – but yeah, I can see how people could argue against that.
Oh well.
Everyone except few activists knows proper one and has no problem with it - it's just ridiculous problem which is used as campaign material - low turnover expected so they need to mobilize hardcore voters.
PiS/Konfa will be angered, "silniczki" will buy anything KO sells, rest of voters will facepalm looking at behavior of both as correct grammar is the last thing we want to discuss.
It's not an English language problem though, English is not a gendered language so it avoids this issue completely. It's only a problem for gendered languages.
In Silesian we used plural to people we wanted to show respect to. It's like German Sie/sie thing. I can see myself using this plural form towards nonbinary people.
Same in Ukrainian. To show respect, we say "Ви" ("Vy") when talking to higher-ups, elderly and ppl who are not friend/acquintance.
In Polish this is now regarded as a mistake and a "rusycyzm" - copying rules from Russian anf applaying them to Polish. Since it has a strony corelation to Russian most ppl wouldn't want to use that form.
For real? It's also done in Czech. If you're talking to an "elder" and/or a stranger you use "vy" instead of "ty". I don't think it's "Russification" specifically. It's also done in German and used to be in Scandinavian languages as well
We jus use Pan/Pani as honorific for unfamiliar ppl. Could be translated as miss/mister. That's also how kids adress teachers etc.
And verb in the singular 3 person.
Czech uses pan/paní as well. My wife refers to our cats that way haha
Unfortunately, our (Ukrainian) lang has a deeper and longer connection with russian, like, going back to Kyivan Rus' connection.
It's not a russicism, it's the correct form of address in most Slavic countries. Before WW2, most of us were using wy as the polite form of address, the Pan/Pani form only became mainstream after the end of the war. It would sound old timey as fuck today, though (eg: Jak mogę Wam pomóc, dobry człowieku?).
I see no problem with that lol. I already talk with people like that for funnies
Robiłxm sounds like Polish Roblox
I don't think gender neutral unpronounceable written forms like "robiłxm" will ever be common
Wait, there are pronounceable words in Polish?
"Robiłom", maybe?
new gender: Silesian
Is Kashubian a gender too? We might have the first non-binary prime minister if so
I don't think it'll ever work.
Rule for Polish - sounds like village language...it won't ever stick as we are grammar and pronunciation nazis.
it's grammatically correct
Polish is already gendered language and I don't think gender neutral unpronounceable written forms like "robiłxm" will ever be common
On the contrary, genderless forms were quite common, and likely still are - just, only within certain organizatuons, like public healthcare. Forms like:
- No już, idzie sobie.
- Nie widzi, że kawę piję?
These forms sound kind of rude and dismissive though.
They do, very much.
I find it funny.
Pronouns are the least troublesome thing to gender in the Polish language (like most Slavic languages, we gender even Rocks).
(like most Slavic languages, we gender even Rocks).
That's nothing exceptional. The only Indo-European language that I know of that doesn't do that is English.
My understanding is that Afrikaans uses gender very similarly to English
It has only two articles, die and 'n, where Dutch has three: de, het and een, and die is a demonstrative pronoun.
Much like Scandinavian languages with neuter and "common gender"
Yes, Dutch language is like that. Afrikaans indeed doesn't really have grammatical gender just like English
It's not like we use pronouns that much - compared to other Slavic languages we often can and should skip them. Gendering stuff is not a problem.
It's just neutral gender seems offensive so we have ridiculous spelling parkour with forms like "robiłxm" etc.
Don't worry tell me you adopted the weird X thing. I speak Czech and Slovak and pronouns are almost nonexistent.
The gender neutral language was really jarring in the “Fallout” show. Like I don’t care what gender that character is, don’t make it a mystery with your bad grammar.
I have seen it twice and haven't noticed anything non gendered on English huh.
In Polish the forms like "robiłom" were used by Maximu's friend. I eatched with Polish subtitles and bearly noticed it, it really wasn't complicated or hard to understand at all.
To be fair i can understand that, as it is cultural heritage.
I dont really care what a person would like to be called (just give me your name ffs) it does not matter to me at all.
I mean, so Hungary also has Christianity as its "cultural heritage", so our coat of arms includes a cross and is visible in all areas, but putting up crosses in public buildings is crossing a line, though I'm fairly certain lots of rural public buildings just has a cross and people think it's OK (even though it shouldn't be, because we have iconoclastic protestants as well, who are just as part of our cultural heritage as the catholics).
Why? Burns your eyes? It’s nothing more than divide and conquer. Who gives a fck. It’s enough if they stop stealing.
What do you mean why? I just wrote that it's giving unfair and unlawful privilege to one group of people arbitrarily. Also, stealing is one thing, but they also should be prosecuted for being pedos (because only pedos protect other pedos).
They have forbidden employees from displaying their personal crucifixes. It appears to be a violation of religious freedom.
Don't lie, they specifically didn't ban personal symbols.
However, the ban does not apply to “religious symbols for personal use worn by people working in the office, for example in the form of a chain, tattoo or armband”
The ban applies only to wall and desk stuff.
So, someone can put Star Wars memorabilia in his desk, but not an icon of the Virgin Mary. How is it fair?
I don't know, don't ask me, I can say only what's written in the article. I'd probably put a model train there or something.
However, the thing with Polish left (ruling power in Warsaw) is that they are generally against the church sticking their hands into politics (which it sometimes does), and this might be a some kind of an "f u" directed at the church.
Wait WHAT?! They banned RELIGIOUS SIGNIFIERS ON PEOPLE??? Like they're shooting themselves in the foot threefold - the rightists will rage at the ban on Christianity while the leftists will rage about banning Muslim skullcaps and head coverings, and the politically homeless will be infuriated by what it can mean to Jews and Hindus.
Which is likely to result in a reversal come next election. All the left had to do was leave cultural heritage alone and yet it's the one thing they won't do. No crying when the right takes back power next election.
Wasn't Poland just crowned as worst country to live for LGBTQ+ people?
So how do custom pronouns work in Polish? Because they confuse me in English even to this day (skill issue I guess)
They don’t work. The entire language is gendered, so when people tried to come up with custom pronouns they’d have to come up with new forms for every single verb.
Usually when we talk about preferred pronouns it’s about trans people wanting to be referred to by the pronouns of the other gender. Some (rarely) prefer the neutral pronoun, but it’s really awkward to use, even for the person themselves, because the neutral forms of our verbs work exclusively when you use them in 3rd person. We don’t have 1st person neutral form.
So this is essentially just another version of latinx? Attempting to force a global leftist standard irrespective of local particularities? Seems very lazy.
Pretty much.
One can use genderless forms (they exist in limited scope) such as:
- Poda mi
- Przyjdzie tu
- Idzie sobie
BUT - these sound awful as fuck, as if you order sb + belittle/dehumanise
Thats the kind of language that was common at the beginning of century (or even middle ages) when nobility/rich folks were ordering around the lower class. The emphasis is on 'IM SO MUCH BETTER THAN YOU THAT I WONT EVEN ACKNOWLEDGE YOU AS MY PEER/ANOTHER HUMAN BEING.
It was also used back in the good old communist days...usually by a person in position of power.
These days you can very rarely come across it from burnt out/rude and jaded customer service personnel such as train station clerks/healthcare/grocery shops cashiers - provided they are 50-60 yrs+🤣
But its been like 20 years since i last heard those forms irl.
Id rather mispronoun sb then use that genderless form.
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16d
Right, they just organically came up with the very same thing that was cooked up in US universities.
Yeah. A community with the same traits under the same conditions wanting the same change for grammatically similar languages (for gender) will obviously come up with the same solutions.
From what I've seen in the comments, Polish methods of gender-neutral language without neo-pronouns is the same janky stuff as French & German and I highly doubt the average queer or feminist Pole is that invested in the Franco/German language debate.
But sure, keep believing that anything & everything involving queers or women comes from the spoooky underworld of oh so evil US universities. I'm sure that's the real logical explanation for a country known for its lackluster English skills (sorry Poles, I love y'all tho)
y'all
Oh no, I have been taken over by the woke by my use of "y'all" from the most progressive lands in America... the South. Good job.
The problem is that anything neutral is basically equivalent to calling someone "it".
Our whole language is gendered.
For example past tense of the verb „think”
- Ja myślałam - I thought (said by a woman)
Ja myślałem - I thought (said by a man)
Ty myślałaś - you thought (said to a woman)
Ty myślałeś - you thought (said to a man)
On myślał - he thought
Ona myślała - she thought
Ono myślało - it thought
It’s really hard to hide your gender while speaking Polish and to be gender neutral. Gender neutral pronoun “ono” (it) only exists in singular 3rd person, but non binary folks are using some of the lately coined forms like for example:
- Ja myślałom
- Ja myślałxm
- Ja myślał_m
- Ja myślał*m
All these forms mean “I thought” but it’s a gender neutral form (similar to “Latinx” gender neutral form).
Ja myślałom
Ja myślałxm
Ja myślał_m
Ja myślał*m
The first one sounds like off brand Silesian but is doable, how the hell am I supposed to pronounce the rest??
Yeah… this is the main problem with these neo verb forms 😕
I guess we go full Zulu or Khoisan with some of these...
I never heard or even saw anything but the first one used and I know NB ppl. Most of them just choose male or female forms, nobody is using x in real life conversations, it seems like something ppl only use to complain about it.
similar to “Latinx” gender neutral form
Latin people hate that shit and for a good reason. Typical example of LGBT people trying to force their will on a much larger population they know nothing about.
Poles mostly skip pronouns in writing/speaking.
But language is gendered and some written gender neutral forms are Latinx level ridiculous ("robiłxm") - they won't ever be common - first x is not even native Polish letter (used only for foreign words), second they aren't pronounceable etc.
They don't. Only activists care about them and nobody else.
There are two or three ways. None of them good really.
You could use neutral pronoun, but it's pretty demeaning to use it (it's normally reserved to animals, children, objects).
Dukaisms - invented by one of our best writers to write non-gendered AI speak. But those suffer from the problem of bad recognition and were also invented to represent AGI so again - pretty dehumanizing.
You could speak in plural form, but that makes you kind sound like an asshole.
You could be completely bonkers and try to use `x` forms which fit polish language like punch fits the face.
Europe should stop importing North American culture mindlessly, without filter, and actually think about it first.
American cultural imperialism is a nasty blight on <checks notes> everything.
Europe isn't so much importing American culture as American obsessions are being forced upon it.
I think it's a natural osmosis since most of social media is US-centric. It's bound to happen. This site included.
That's true, as well.
I can't see any bald eagles, maple syrup or tequila being mindlessly imported to Poland.
Forget the bald eagle. Tequila and maple syrup are much more essential.
I'd take some poutine as well. We could use the variety.
Forget the tequila, which was largely shaped for the American consumer. Mezcal is better.
Ex dee, laughing emoji, maybe even crying emoji.
The Idea of separating state and religion is absolutely not "North American" and had been around in Europe for ages.
And about the pronoun thing: I wouldn't really call referring to people by the gender they identify with "North American Culture", it's just basic politeness.
If I identify as a king, do you have to kneel before me? Respect my gender, which may or may not change in a few days, or else.
Completely Stupid and unrelated argument. Trans people don't change their gender "every few days".
I just can't fathom what's so hard about calling someone pronouns that they identify with. Someone identifies as a woman -> she, someone identifies as a man -> he.
Like seriously, I don't see any problems in that.
Trans people are not exclusive to North America though.
Unless you mean the whole thing with putting "x" at the end of words to make them gender-neutral, which most trans people would also agree is stupid. I remember Antena 1 making a segment about this a few weeks ago because some random guy proposed it and most of the comments on Instagram were death/violence threats against LGBT people from the finest specimens of cocalari imaginable. It was a non-story, but stories that make LGBT people seem crazy get a lot of traction sadly.
While I agree that it's often a blow-up of a non-issue and the push-back of the transphobes/religious types is as productive as caveman noises, it's the media, tech giants and institutions adopting it and enforcing it, even if it appeals a very small minority of LGBT. As article stated, requiring city hall staff to respect pronouns in a mandatory fashion seems all sorts of wrong in its implementation and motives.
... informed officials that they must respect the rights of same-sex couples and people’s preferred pronouns.
I don't wanna get all slippery-slope-y but I think blindly adopting anything novel/foreign culturally will yield worse results than letting it infuse through better societal/cultural filters over longer time. Long story short, lets not jump hand in hand towards m2f athletes in Polish women's sports lol. Backtracking it will be much, much harder later on, and might fuel far right appeals even more.
Well it's not like it's the USA or the UK telling Poland to do these things "or else!", this is the decision of the mayor of Warsaw. It's really just telling people to follow the law (in case of respecting the rights of same sex couples) and be civil with your work colleagues. Every company or institution has a certain set of civility rules, because you don't want your employees to devolve into middle school level bullying.
Also, Warsaw is a pretty progressive city for Eastern European standards, definately not as conservative as eastern or southern Poland. Warsaw's culture is already pretty tolerant of gay people, it's not like this is implemented in Ahmedabad.
That's why I said it was imported, not enforced from the outside. Civility rules is one thing, enforcing things that have unclear theory, boundaries and functionality behind it is another. For instance, respecting one for switching the traditional genders (he/she) is a worthy debate and exercise of empathy; if the pronouns/identity can be anything on the other hand, you're deconstructing identity to the point that it no longer means anything. This is a very post-modern stance that I will never agree with. You may say that most LGBT don't agree with it, but if the institution enforces it then your argument for mere civility becomes thin.
Nobody is talking about pronuons being anything, that's not even possibile in Polish. They just mean ppl should respesct the chosen pronuons being he/she maybe neutral, you are arguing against something that is not happening.
trans people are a German invention and separation of church and state is basic modern statesmanship
Another day, another smokes-and-mirrors outrage bait from the ruling party to mask their inactivity.
Meanwhile, the city of Warsaw is still unable to build crucial roads that have been planned for decades, to take care of hundreds of dissipating city-owned tenement houses, or to have any coherent large-scale urban planning.
That's disheartening. I was in Warsaw last month and didn't notice the infrastructure issue, though when I strayed from the central areas I did see some Soviet looking buildings in less than ideal condition. Guess that as long as the areas with tourists and richer people are unaffected they can harp about inclusivity while the lower profile sections of the city falls into disrepair.
Some of those districts are getting revitalized somewhat. I know the Praga district is getting some investment into it but I am not sure how much exactly.
I mean it's better than nothing right?
Yeah definitely :)
My pronouns are Your grace / Your excellence, and everyone who doesn't respect them should be fined.
Ironically, that would have to be acceptable as per the alphabet people demands.
What's the point of the religious symbol ban?
Well, Catholicism is not a state religion, despite being adhered to by 71% of Poles, so it's very debatable if religious symbols should be in government buildings and schools.
despite being adhered to by 71% of Poles
Many Poles claim that they believe in God (because why not?) but then proceed to follow absolutely no guidances of their own religion. Attendance to Sunday Mass is at all time low. If they don't care about that, I think they shouldn't care about cross hanging or not hanging in public institution as well. And obviously those institutions are set to serve non-religious and people of different religion as well.
Yea but if they don't believe why do they even care about that but i agree there should not be any symbols in places like these except the Polish flag
To be entirely fair, Catholicism is a major component of polish heritage/identity. Whether it be the Initial pope approval of Poland to signify its creation as a nation, or a unifying factor during the troubled years when it was split apart by foreign powers. No matter how you look at it, this is a stupid thing to do. If they were really trying to be progressive, they’d approve anyone to show off their religious symbols. But to remove a key part of polish culture(and as you’ve stated, a vast majority of its population is catholic) is such stupidity. It’s like banning the white eagle/white part of the polish flag because it stands for “spiritual purity and nobility”
Secularism?
From enlightenment. Yes, it's a good thing.
Reddit moment.
I don't want government institutions to have any religious symbols as they shouldn't implicitly or passively, via displayed symbols, favor one religion over another.
To attack the rights of religious people. They did the same thing during the french revolution. But they also genocided 200.000 catholics in Vendee.
I think there is still a long way to go between a policy of no religious symbols in government offices, like here, and a policy of mass murder and destruction, like during the French Revolution.
You should've seen the hysteria in right-wing media. Pundits are already calling Trzaskowski authoritarian.
But wasn't that exactly his point? It's definitely action aimed at further polarization as whole KO shtick before EP election is polarizing content.
Is it on the level of the Wisła incident? :D I don't watch right-wing media sooooo yeah.
Warsaw has fallen, billions must suffer in hopelessness
The current mayor of Warsaw is a hypocrite. When it's election time, he hides and denies all of this so he can get religious people's votes.
I was interested in the Warsaw Uni post that discussed "murzyn". What is the issue with this word? It may come from "Moor", but no one who doesn't speak Polish would associate it with anything. Is it particularly pejorative compared to the Polish word for "black"? It's not like Poland has a long history of colonising or enslaving.
What is the issue with this word?
It's considered to be a racist pejorative these days AFAIK. I don't remember the exact reasoning, but it is what it is.
It's not like Poland has a long history of colonising or enslaving.
No, but some people like to try and copy paste issues (not saying that the "murzyn" one is one of those) from other parts of the world even if they don't fit in our discourse or whatnot.
Thanks for answering! It was a genuine question, seeing as Poland doesn't really have the same history with "black people" broadly as, say, English-speakers, and the word doesn't sound like the n-word (like even the Czech equivalent does). So I just don't see who decides that is should randomly be pejorative
So I just don't see who decides that is should randomly be pejorative
I don't either, but I think it started around the time the George Floyd protests were happening some time in 2020. To me, the word "murzyn" is neutral as when I was growing up, it was used to describe a black person without pejoratives and the like.
Now, the word "czarnuch" (think of it as calling someone "blackie" or "darkie") is very much a racist pejorative, no question about it.
Interesting development tbh. I could see the point if it was related to the n-word or had negative historical connotations somehow, but it just seems like picking a fight where there isn't one.
What is a neutral term in contemporary Polish then?
Czarny is prolly the neutral term but i would personally use both czarny and murzyn.
The problem with murzyn began when some people started attaching negative connotations to it under western or rather exclusively American influence so now czarny is more common. The problem i see here is that czarny aka "black" already had some negative literary connotations like villany or something illegal and soon the old murzyn connotations will be attached to the word czarny as well. Will we have to start looking for a new word to replace the old one then too?
And that's exactly what I find stupid. It doesn't have historical connotations, and it's not inherently bad. I'm sure there are people who'd use it in a negative setting towards the few black people in Poland, but those are probably not the ones who'd stop using it because Warsaw Uni or some linguists conclude that it's wrong. I generally tend to use someone's nationality or steer away from skin colour based descriptors, I just also find it stupid to suddenly decide that a random word is wrong for no reason. Anyway, I don't really have skin in the game; I don't speak Polish, I was just wondering because it seemed so random for a country like Poland (i.e one without the history and inherited guilt of the countries to her west). Thanks for talking about it!
it just seems like picking a fight where there isn't one
That's my opinion too but if using the updated term means less hassle for me & another person, then I will use it lol
What is a neutral term in contemporary Polish then?
A quick search came up with "czarny" (black) or "ciemnoskóry" (dark skinned) but there could be other ways ("Afrykańczyk" - African, "Nigeryjczyk" - Nigerian etc.) when it comes immigrants. That said, I am not 100% sure on this so take what I say with a grain of salt :)
Not all religious symbols. Just Christianity's.
just allow all those symbols and allow abortion too.
Freedom is not a competition in issuing forbiddings for everything the others like. If you do that you all will feel like being imprisoned with your enemy in the same cell, in no time .
Why can't everybody have some more air to breathe, instead of making it a zero summ game.
Weird to see Poland fall for that stupid porous shit, but I did not expect they.
I'm happy.
Before both wars and leaving Europe maps, Poland has been the most tolerant country in the world probably with biggest multi-culti era ever seen in our history. And then our neighbours decided they don't like it because it's too cool. Till today Poland constitution respect EVERY religion but somehow it was forgotten.
And why you didn't expect US? People barely go to churches and baptism their kids only because "their family wanted" and then they don't give a shit about praying or teaching kids what religion is. Most of Christians in Poland are fake. Like me - was baptised and all this shit but always hated anything close to church, today full atheist - but my church doesn't know about it so they still claim I'm Christian. Many people I know got same story.
Before both wars and leaving Europe maps, Poland has been the most tolerant country in the world
The PLC was getting more and more xenophobic during the last centuries of its existence. One of the main pillars of sarmatism was xenophobia against foreigners.
Chryzostom Pasek literally explains why he believes that Danes are inferior in one of his works from sarmatism era.
Not to mention the forced expulsion of Protestants.
probably with biggest multi-culti era ever seen in our history.
A random princely state in India was probably more diverse than the PLC or Interwar Poland.
And then our neighbours decided they don't like it because it's too cool.
I think they didn't really care about that. They were more interested in land.
Tragic. Sad state of Europe.
We're all doomed because there's slightly fewer idolatrous symbols on walls?
The moment western world decided to turn it's back to christianity - religion that made western civilization great to begin with, western world started its collaps.
Europe is already a dead man walking, I'm afraid to even thing where it's going to be in 50-100 years.
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16d
Catholicism is the definition and beautiful and awesome. 🇻🇦🩷
Catholicism is a few symbols that people like to display, and a huge amount of rules that nobody actually follows. Virtue signalling without the virtues.
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16d
It's sad really, to so passionatly hate a religion you obviously don't know much about.
I hope you'll find your peace and get rid of that anger you've bottled up in you.
western world started its collaps.
But it's not collapsing because of that?It's collapsing because of politicians who keep bringing more and more millions of immigrants every year despite the official statistics that in few decades the Swedes, Germans, British will be minority in their own countries
And why are they bringing in those migrants? 👀
Low birth rates caused by high taxes and cost of living
Low birth rates, yes. Caused by high taxes and cost of living - no.
Surely, there's atleast one rich country in the developed world with good living standard where they're popping kids like crazy, no? Norway, Switzerland? How are their birth rates doing?
Japan and China are both conservative countries,feminism isn't popular there,yet their fertility rate is still low,ppl just can't afford. 100 yrs ago ppl had kids because they had their own farms and grew their own food and they needed labor
Buddy Japan, China, Russia, etc. aren’t really conservative. Women there have the same rights as in Western Europe. And they aren’t very religious. Which is why they also have bad birth rates.
Warsaw W
Strongly agreed!
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16d
No, they have not swapped anything. They just become secular by law and put emphasis on respecting everyone while causing absolutely no problems to anyone. What's the problem with that?
What's the problem with that?
There is no guarantee that liberal secular humanism will fill the vacuum created by the defanging of Christianity.
There is no guarantee the sky won't come down tomorrow. Take a chance, live a little!
That's the fun part. There's no need to fill-in with anything. Even if you think there's something to replace, which there isn't, secularism is a good intent at it and it's better than any religion. Period.
There's no need to fill-in with anything.
This is why Europeans are sleep walking into disaster and ultimately irrelevance. Vacuums will always be filled by an ideology whether you like it or not. There is no such thing as neutrality. Whether it's religion, nationalism, or something else...the vacuum always gets filled, and not necessarily by something "better".
Right. You're a clear example of this. Cool story, though.
Europeans have been moving away from religion onto secularism since the enlightenment whether you like it or not.
Doomer, everything else in your comment is your problem. Not mine so please go bother somebody else.
"everything else in your comment is your problem" haha what ?
You are bashing him because he doesnt want to call men a "madam"
....no? Maybe improve your reading skill before había a strong opinion about a topic you're not putting an effort to understand? Also, please be respectful (because you're not). Thanks.
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16d
Again, what?
BATMAN_UTILITY_BELT is arguing that secularism is bad and that the state should basically take catholicism as a state religion dude. Maybe you agree with him, but I'd bash someone for wanting to enforce their religion on the whole country.
He did not say that lmao
"There is no guarantee that liberal secular humanism will fill the vacuum created by the defanging of Christianity."
When someone said that christianity's vacuum doesn't need to be filled in
"This is why Europeans are sleep walking into disaster and ultimately irrelevance. Vacuums will always be filled by an ideology whether you like it or not. There is no such thing as neutrality. Whether it's religion, nationalism, or something else...the vacuum always gets filled, and not necessarily by something "better"."
I don't know what do you think he's saying if it's not "Christianity should be an integral part of people's lives because otherwise it'll probably be something worse."
This is how people argue in Afghanistan and Somalia. But believe me, secular societies are better to live in. Very few people would flee from Iceland to Afghanistan because Iceland has become too secular.
What vacuum? Religion should not play any part in society. It's your own beliefs treat them as such
Neither should "prefer pronouns" lmfao. You should be referred to as male when you are male, or female when you are female
Thats not even remotely comparable, people can have preferences as to what they are reffereed to
And I believe that people are either male or female, and I will refer to them as such :)
(And dont try to jump "what if there is someone with 1 in billion genetic deformity...")
Then that just makes you an ass. Must be so proud of yourself
Why ? I didnt say i will call you a cunt. If a woman wants to be called a "madam" sure, if a man wants this, I obviously wont. Simple as that.
Not having basic human decency and going out of your way to hurt other peoples feeling shows you have a lot of growing up to do in life, good luck
I think that's the joke that respect is also make believe. But idk, that's how I read it.
With that logic everything is make believe. We created all language, so it's make believe. We created money, so it's make-believe. We created government, so it's make-believe.
So what?
Yes, that's the joke. For all you know, I too am make believe!
No, joke is that they cancelled religion because you are in "state institution and not church", yet you force people to use pronouns in state institution, even tho polish has proper grammar to refer to male/female
Why respect everyone ?
You are in state institution, you should refer to people by their real gender, you know, the thing they have on passport/ID. You know, as you mentioned, it is the state LAW - and you are in state institution.
Why dont you respect people who want to refer to male as male, and female as female ? :)
If I was a rightwing politician in Poland I'd start identifying as an attack helicopter now that it's required to recognize one's pronouns.
Attack helicopter is male.
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16d
Switched to none religion, but of course the priest will complain if the state does not force the religion on people, they might need to actually work. Nobody stops the priests to visit you and tell you about Jesus, but they never do anything for free, they do their Sunday stuff and when you need them for something you have to pay.
I bet that removing a cross from a building will have no significant effect, the religious people will not lose their faith because of that and that symbol would not have scared some non believer into going to church.
Bet you they'll put a rainbow flag there, still no replacement? People always will believe in something, be it God or other Propaganda. There will be no peace, in good times, people will create new issues to fight over them.
Bet you they'll put a rainbow flag there,
I bet you would not bet your hose on this.
The rainbow flag is not just the "gay and trans flag". The rainbow flag is supposed to represent diversity, the fact that you can be an equal and respected member of society regardless of your identity. The Cross is a Christian symbol, exclusive to Christians, which are not 100% of the population of Warsaw. Hence it would make more sense to display the gay flag than the Cross.
I'm not necessarily against displaying the Cross, as long as Christians would accept the display of other symbols alongside it if the administration wishes so. But the Church still wishes to be the one and only moral authority in the country, so their words come across as highly hipocritical.
It's the symbol of a new religion with its own martyrs and fanatics. It's hard not to see it if you have eyes. I'm not a religious person, so I treat it as any other religion.
What religion mate? Gay and trans people are only asking society and governments to not trample on their rights and to not consider them as deviant freaks. If that is too hard for you, I don't know what to say.
The rainbow was an icon of supporting NHS in UK during COVID.
I always wonder why they are so triggered by simple rainbows but they are the same people who laugh at Islamist burning US flag. It's exactly the same syndrome I guess.
Based Warsaw!!???
Nah man. I left the church but not for you to take historical symbols away. Cross is part of our heritage like it or not. Especially if they are historic, symbolic and have been there for years don't change it. I'm not even officially a Christian but I still think that is just idiotic
Good
Wow that’s actually so based
There is a long tradition of Communists in Poland rejecting religion in general, and Catholicism in particular.
What does the whole issue have to do with communism?
You SHALL live as WE tell you to!
Finally some progress after the mess of the former shit government.
Finally I can say...
BASED POLAND 🇵🇱 ♥️ 💪
Doesn't sound too bad.
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16d
Relevant username if I ever seen one lol
Rarely am I seeing someone so open about their political affiliation. Even if their nick was "IloveJaroslaw" I would have some doubts (troll?). But this one really wanted to be open about it. Brave.
a sad day indeed
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People are FAR more outraged about taking off the Catholic crosses from the city hall than the pronouns requirement.
Poland in a nutshell