For a whole party's optimization at high levels, is it really crucial that the party Paladin have 20 CHA? That's the sense I've gotten from Reddit. But other forums are telling me that maxxing CHA isn't so important. Opinions?
To put things into perspective, Resilience is a half feat that usually grants a +3 to +5 in one Save, and it's considered strong.
Aura of Protection does that for all 6 saves, and not only for yourself, but also for your nearby allies, mounts, and summons.
Aura of Protection does that for all 6 saves
Don't forget death saves as well.
Death saves are the least important out of the 7. They can easily be ignored by using a healing word, and if nobody on your side is alive to heal you, then you've lost either way.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here because death saves still happen and the aura of protection still works on them.
Healing word works fine most of the time for a downed team mate. However, consider if a monster has downed the fighter with its first attack and hit him again with its second the fighter is now on two failed death saves. It's the fighters turn and they roll a 6. Normally they'd be dead, however the aura has meant they've rolled a 10 instead. The paladin kills the monster next turn and the cleric then brings the fighter back up.
While this is true, thus doesn't discount what they said about Death saves being the least important of the affected saves. The other six stats might keep you from ever having to make a death save anyway. Death Saves happen less anyway at higher levels and the remedies for deaths are fairly simple if you have the resources for resurrection spells as well, which are more common at 20th level.
That doesn't change the fact saying it is least important is IRRELEVANT.
The original comment being replied to is stating "all 6 saves" is incorrect, death saves shouldn't be omitted. And that is completely true in all senses of the statement. Saying it's less important is not a constructive response because it doesn't make death saves any less affected.
The person bringing up that it's least important is just being a pedant, derailing the topic.
Any sensible person agrees there are 7 types of saving throws, upvotes, and moves on.
ok
I'll argue that Death Saves are more important than Strength Saves 9/10 times.
I'm not really sure what point you're trying to make here because death saves still happen and the aura of protection still works on them.
It's not a comment on whether it works, it's a comment on how much value we should assign to aura of protection when there are so many ways to make death saves not necessary.
Counterpoint
You (the rogue) May be dead, the Warrior May be asleep, the Cleric May be paralized but the Druid in elemental form MAY hit a crit on the beholder and kill him
It'd be a better move to wake up the fighter, no?
That was the Plan, Attack the beholder First then use movement to deal damage to fighter to wake him up
Beholder didnt survive the Attack
Oh, forgot about fire elemental's AoE.
I would say that they're not terribly important in the 'make 3 saves before you die' sense, as in most cases you'll either get healing or be on your way to a TPK at that point.
However, I think there is a lot of value to the first death save, which, depending on initiatives, could happen before any healer gets to act. If we're talking about 'hard' combat, enemies should absolutely be targeting people on the ground to prevent healing word bop bag tactics, and a single failed death save is significant at that point, because it means a single crit (causing 2 fails) will put the person down. And since attacks auto-crit against unconscious targets, if you've failed even 1 save, it means that a mook in the encounter can spend a single attack to remove the PC.
This is efficient action economy for the enemies as it means the healer now needs a 3rd level slot, their action, and to be adjacent to bring that target back up.
Your opinion is even more unimportant because they are not saying death saves are more or equally important. The person they replied to said "all 6 saves" and they are doing the right thing by correcting that.
The correct statement should be that Aura of Protect adds its wonderful bonus for all 7 saves.
The point is accounting for all valid saves.
There is no need to delve into which is more important.
You have to see to use healing word right? It is cool that your super duper nice DM never builds, say an encounter in fog or with multiple counterspellers or has the freaking wolf drag the body away behind full cover. Must be nice. You should get them a coffee or something.
Basically D&D is a game of highly variable difficulty- at easy difficulty death saves barely matter, at very hard difficulty ALL the monsters are immediately going for a downed PC and death saves hardly matter... at medium hard ish difficulty they tend to matter a lot. I think we have groups who are playing at different levels of difficulty in this thread.
To put things into perspective, Resilience is a half feat that usually grants a +3 to +5 in one Save, and it's considered strong.
IMO, for non-sorcerer (sorcerers have con save proficiency anyway) casters in the party and the paladin themselves, it's when you combine aura of protection with resilient con that it truly reaches its true potential. That's when you start reaching the "In most circumstances you will never fail a spell concentration check" territory, which is probably one of the most game-changing things a Paladin can easily provide for themselves and for other casters in their party. It's just so huge to practically guarantee that you'll keep your buffs and control spells up and not lose them to chip damage.
Only for your cleric, or at high levels. If your wizard or sorcerer is standing that close to the BBEG your probably going to be dripping concentration when you get knocked down.
There are more casters capable of standing in the front lines than just clerics, and most fights in a campaign aren't against BBEGs - but yes, if you're standing close to the heavy hitters as a backliner that's something we call a skill issue.
The point was that the best way to maintain concentration is to avoid getting into melee, which is pretty hard to do while standing 10ft from the Paladin.
Unless it’s an optimized party with no frontline and the Paladin is blasting with Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Repelling Blast.
Like I said, there are other casting classes who fight in melee that aren't clerics, and all of them like hanging on to the spells they went out of their way to use their actions to cast - from Druids to Bladelocks and everything inbetween.
Some would also say Rangers, but we all know Rangers don't have any spells (jokes aside rangers also benefit even if their spells are worse, they at least do have some good ones)
That's why you only get to paladin 6 (or 7) and multiclass afterwards. A paladin who is concentrating on bless, protecting his allies with aura of protection, and casting a ranged cantrip is doing his job alright.
I had to point out this to my pal player as he was wondering if it's worth it. That it is like having profiency in all saving throws or it's MORE the that of he bumps the CHA. He didn't seem to believe it works like that and Re-read the entry :D
And it stacks with being proficient, too. Now that I think about it this way, it is really good, especially if you have the radius improvement.
I once played an ancients paladin multiclass in a high level game. The team got hit by a meteor . Half of the team saved due to the aura and everyone was resistant to the damage. We were practically unscathed.
Yeah, an additional +5 to all saves is massive. Even if it's only a +2 or +3 that still gives people a bonus to saves they might not have any bonus to.
Bonuses to saving throws are one of the more limited things. High level play, especially when it is newer players, can revolve around save or suck spells. Were I the kind of dm who wanted to kill some newer min-maxers, I’d look first to spam them with saving throws. They’ll fail one sooner or later. Then the next one, and so on. Once they all are down, kobolds can finish them with melee autofails. And then my game is ruined. So don’t do that.
It’s kind of busted honestly. I’m playing a Paladin right now and as long as the party stays close it’s rare that they fail saving throws - not to mention that I basically never fail saving throws.
Imagine giving a flat +5 to all Saving Throws. THEN whatever the Paladin's subclass aura is. Its reallly fuckin good.
Seriously, I mean it makes them bunched up but a party huddled around an ancients Paladin has a huge bonus to all saves… and takes half damage from spells. That can turn some of the biggest oh shit moments to no big deal.
My ancients paladin created the situation for the most meh use of meteor storm ever, it was phenomenal. DM spent 20 seconds hyping up the spell, and we ended up taking like 20 damage a piece due to the saves and reduced spell damage.
My Ancients Paladin saved our cleric from a Disintegrate. They survived with 2 HP
That was a huge narrative opportunity to hype the Paladin's powers, too. Like everyone circling them, channeling their faith that they'll be safe there, and the aura visibly knocking away meteors. Could have been epic.
I am just imagining Braum from League of Legends just shouting "Stand Behind Braum" lifting up his shield to the sky blocking the shower of meteors
Braum vs ASol ult
I am just imagining Braum from League of Legends just shouting "Stand Behind Braum" lifting up his shield to the sky blocking the shower of meteors
40d6 = 140 avg, 70 w/ save/resist, 35 w/ save+resist.
Rather smol meteor swaem, about 40% weaker than average.
Thank you for doing the math, admittedly it's been about 6 months so I just eyeballed the damage in my comment (...also I didn't take any thanks to a lucky save and the shield master feat)
Ancients Paladin makes spell math easy. Just add all the dice together by dice type, cut the result in half, consider saving throw, and you're basically done.
how is this a meh moment?? dig in and narrate how your divine energies deflect and shatter a fucking meteor swarm over the whole party
They meant the meteor swarm was meh having been mostly negated
'It was phenomenal'
Me and friends were fighting a vampire family in their own house. The Lady of the house dropped a meteor swarm on us all, and the only one that knocked unconscious was the Paladin. We were spread apart and all got bruised and battered afterwords, but it worked out honestly. He had been stuck unable to take his turn cause of shenanigans, but I was able to pop him back up once he was unconscious, and without any of the pesky shenanigans affecting him anymore. He proceeded to end the fight on his next turn with an unhealthy dose of smiting, at least one crit, and an action surge.
Of course the rogue/ranger in the party was the only one who took no damage at all either, evasion meant even meteor swarm didn’t touch him.
I was just talking about how my ancients paladin shrugged off a meteor swarm for the team. The DM was aghast.
Alternately, just wait until high levels and then you can start spreading out. I used to be able to take advantage of the huddle, but now that the paladin's aura has 30 foot range, it's pretty rare that I get anybody out of range and still can only get some of them in the AOEs.
Imagine a fireball spell dealing 10~15 damage. On a failed save.
Monks get to add their proficiency to all their saves at level 14. Paladin can add their charisma at level 6. Also, they can add it to all their allies. Jesus
Yes but These stack too
Yes. What I am trying to point out is that the Monk feature is considered pretty good, meanwhile all paladins get a better very similar feature 8 levels sooner.
Only if they stay within 10 ft. And I'm mostly wondering if +4 instead of +5 is "enough."
*enough* doesn't make sense as a way of framing the question. There aren't diminishing returns on the value of charisma. Any amount could be considered *enough* but increasing charisma is the strongest choice you can make on a paladin with your ASIs.
As someone who’s DMed for a party who had a paladin from levels 8 to 15, it’s a humongous deal. That ability clearly outshone every other singular ability any one of those other characters had. The ability is nuts with 16 charisma, but stupidly good with 20. If you’re building the ‘most powerful’ party you can, you’d better have someone with 6 levels of paladin.
As a practical matter, Aura of Protection is enormously useful. It's a massive save bump for your party, and saves happen all the bloody time.
Concentration check? That's a save. Dragon's breath? Dex save. Dragon fear? Wis save. Any kind of spell debuff? Save. Missed a jump over a ledge or triggered a trap? Dex save. Decided to do a forced march? An 18 Cha is a +4 to your Con save vs. exhaustion.
Most parties make a lot of saves in practice.
In terms of white-room optimization it doesn't modify your DPR numbers, so it's easy to undervalue it.
Adding to that, death saving throws are saves as well.
To that, it doesn't apply to the paladin because they have to be conscious for AoP. Works for allies though.
its nice being a diamond soul monk thats within your friends AoP
"Have you ever failed a save?"
"Not since level 14."
Even better when I got to be that pally and monk. Pally 6/ monk 14. The Ponk.
Oh god not the Phonk
it's value changes a LOT based on encounter design too. Sometimes you just can't realistically keep the group clumped in the aura well enough to get the HUGE benefit from it. That said, even if it literally only buffs the paladin it's still a good ability.
Also, at paladin 10, aura of courage comes online. Dragon fear save is negated
The Dragon's Breath example is where I think the aura just becomes bait for a trap. Clumping up turns the Dragon's Breath hitting 1-3 targets into hitting all of them, which even passing the saving throw and taking half damage is not gonna feel that great. For the initial fear affect, yeah, you're going to want it, but as soon as initiative is rolled your best bet against a dragon is to spread the hell out.
Had a party TPK against a dragon because they kept clustering for that aura bonus, forgetting that they didn't have the hit points for the aura to matter much either way. You can clump up and pass the save to take half damage, or you can spread out and probably take zero damage because you didn't need to make the save at all.
It isn't worth it to stay in aura range, but it helps when a dragon inevitably breath weapons the whole party at the very beginning of the fight, and after that it gives your PLD a fighting chance on just about any save they're forced to make.
assuming a 60 to 90 ft cone theres a very good chance a dragon is going to hit your entire party anyway, its a massive AoE.
A dragon with a 90 foot cone and 80 foot fly speed to position itself can very often hit everyone with its breath weapon anyway. The AOE is massive.
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15d
They said a missed jump tho. Like a dex save to quickly grab the edge or smth
Pit trap?
Aura of Protection is the second best feature in the game, behind only 'spellcasting'.
It is *that* good, the reason is that 5e maths doesn't scale great into tier 3 and especially tier 4. If a Lich casts a spell and you dont have proficiency in the relevant saving throw, you just may not be able to make the save. Aura of protection is like the resilient feat (one of the best feats in the game) for everyone (near you).
If anything, reddit undervalues Aura of protection because it a defensive feature and those are always undervalued, because optimization usually just cares about DPR.
Given that per WOTC's stats, the largest chunk of play is far away from tier 3 and 4, I think focusing on that as an argument for its power plays into 'overvaluing' it.
It's a feature that you only get at level 6.
If you're playing at levels where it's possible to have it, it's very useful.
It wouldn't be useful in T1... but it's not there in T1.
First, it's always worth noting that this oft-quoted statistic was from D&D beyond, they have no way of tracking larger play habits. And since Beyond probably trends toward people interacting with 'official' D&D content, at the time of the survey there was literally only 1 adventure that even went to level 20 (Dungeon of the Mad Mage) and only a very small number in tier 3. So there's an argument that people running higher level games will have to go outside the official ecosystem, and thus are more likely to use other VTTs and not be well-counted in this data. You might have also seen statistical oddities like a lot more people creating level 1 characters just playing around with the software, etc (they claim its 'active' characters but it's hard to grasp what that means).
On the other hand, there was as survey here with 7k+ responses that held tier 3 as the 'highest reached' for most games. I think that probably corresponds better with the notion that people who play the game beyond introductory level (people who play a bit and then quit), the sweet-spot and most common area of game play is probably in the ~5-14 range, give or take. Tier 1 is routinely called RNG-heavy and boring since characters die so easily and may not even have most of their class features, while the very top end is both considered to have a balance breakdown around high level magic shenanigans, but also a dearth of content (not just adventures, but suitable monsters, etc).
Other than that, it's bizarre to treat this as some rare high level feature. It's one level higher than fireball, come on.
Thats fair, however whilst not as good in tier 2/early tier 3 (where most adventures end) it does take say for example the Fighter with 12 wisdom trying to save against a vampire charm at DC 17 needing to roll a 16 on the dice, to only needing to roll an 11, near 50/50. Its still ridiculously powerful
Edit: at very high level it makes otherwise unsavable saves passable, where as in tier 2/3 it takes low chance successes to about even.
to only needing to roll an 11, near 50/50
11+ on a d20 is exactly 50/50.
It comes on at level 6 which, presuming most campaigns are from 1/3 to 10/13 it's about a 1/3rd to 1/2 to 2/3rds through the game. That's still a significant amount of the playtime. Presuming you keep your CHA at a good value that's still likely a +3 to a +5 to all saving throws for yourself and those nearby.
The value increases at higher levels when saving throws eventually hit a point where you might not be able to save at all but a +15 to +25% chance to pass a saving throw is an incredibly potent tool.
AOE passive bonus that comes up frequently and are often important at a very achievable level that can be boosted (cha asi, lvl 18 area increase, enlarged paladin etc) with literally no downsides.
I’m DMing a campaign where the characters are lvl 17 and their strategy revolves around staying close to the paladin because spreading out was too dangerous. Aura of protection has 100% saved their skins multiple times.
You may not notice it being so much of an issue if you only ever play in tier 1-2 and your DM just throws common fantasy trope stat blocks at you, but if your DM is using a lot of especially undead/spellcasters or more varied blocks you will realize that poor saves are one of the easiest ways for your character to become useless in combat. Once you hit tier 3 enemies with very bad debilitations become much more common across the board.
When I first started playing 5e a while back I used to think it was okay to pick some fun feats for flavor and that resilient wasn't really that important despite what I saw others say, until I realized how absolutely useless I would feel if I failed a bad wisdom/con save. Eventually those saves become a multiple times per combat thing you have to deal with. You don't want to have bad wisdom and con saves.
Furthermore, intelligence and charisma saves are usually just as if not more bad than wisdom saves are, they're just a lot less common. That doesn't make them less deadly when they come around, though, and having that paladin with you to make your otherwise -1 dump stat saves into a +4 to potentially be able to pass is really good. At later levels when save DCs are approaching/beyond 20 the aura can take your weak saves from an auto fail to a 20% or so chance to pass (or higher if you have a source of advantage).
So yeah, Aura of Protection is pound for pound (considering how early you get it and how powerful it remains/scales with level) probably the strongest feature in the game that isn't a spell.
This is why I've got my paladin multiclassed into hexblade warlock. Attack with my charisma, I bump that instead of strength. Slap on elven accuracy, and my offense becomes a phenomenal defense
Saves matter more and more the higher your level. If you're lvl 10 and have a +0 to your Wisdom save, you're likely to get screwed by most spell casting NPCs, and many monsters too.
In a high optimization game, paladins are absolutely maximizing charisma. In a low optimization game, people don’t stay in the aura as much and so you can get by with 16-18 cha.
I wouldn’t worry about what is absolutely optimal unless everyone else in the party is.
The martial stat is important for damage. Charisma is important for saves and spells. So if you want damage it's not charisma and if you are against many hazards or using much spells charisma becomes more important again. That said the unbeaten strongest way is still a hexblade dip so that you can max both by maxing charisma.
Yup. But hexblade dips are atrocious. So the question is whether I'm crazy to drop charisma a bit on a martial-focused character to get her a bit better Dex and Con.
Both Dex and Con saves will be improved by Cha, not just for you but your whole group. Do what you want with your stats, but if you're looking for optimal spreading them out is not the way
Don't, paladins damage does not scale well at higher levels while saves scale through the roof.
you should still at least put a 16 in your Charisma, the +3 to all saves will be invaluable
I think that's the choice you are meant to be faced with.
One of the arguments for Charisma is that even one extra +1 to saves is somewhat likely to change at least one save for you over a night, which is probably not quite worth +1 to hit and +1 to damage, but it's kind of close. Throw in the fact that you probably will tilt up to two saves a night by virtue of it being an aura and it becomes probably more effective damage done by virtue of either turning a defensive/healing round into an offensive/control one, or even turning an enemy control round into nothing at all.
If you are using dexterity modifiers for attack or defense then, sadly, hexblade is a better mechanical option.
A paladin is easily the class that gets away with dumping dex the easiest. Con is good, but it's nowhere close to how good cha is for paladin specifically.
Plus 1 con modifier gives you 1 HP per level and increases your con saving throw and gives +1 healing from a hit die on short rest. Plus 1 cha modifier gives you +1 to spell attack and spell saving throw, +1 to cha based skills, +1 to every saving throw and +2 to cha saving throw. And it increases the effect and/or uses of a lot of class and subclass features.
It's your choice what you do with your character, but as high charisma as you can get away with is a good idea.
If you want better dex then make it your martial stat. If 14 con isn't enough HP for you then take Tough via background.
Dex on a Paladin is like the third to last stat I’d give a damn about unless I’m dumping str over Dex
For me paladin stat importance is str/cha, con, feats.
If I’m going dex then dex/cha, con, feats. However if I’m not doing strength I’d rather just do caster/Hexblade style
If I’m going caster or Hexblade style, cha, con, feats
Numbers wise my main stats (str/dex, cha) to 20. Con I’m ok with a 14 or more
Fwiw the 5.5e rules currently make Shillelagh an alternative to the Hexblade dip. It's worse cause it'll cost you a feat and your bonus action on the first round, but to me it's worth it to avoid the Hexblade dip.
Wait what feat? Magic Initiate doesn't work because Shillelagh isn't on a Charisma-based "spell list" even though it can be picked up by Tomelock or Magical Secrets.
They changed it in the onednd play tests - now any spell you pick up via magic initiate scales with your current spellcasting stat.
Is it crucial? No, you can get by fine without it.
Is it incredibly powerful and a huge thing you notice when you do have it (especially after the aura range increases to 30 ft)? Yes. It might be the single most powerful ability in the game tbh, and definitely heavily affects any fight.
It's easily the Paladin's most impactful feature throughout a campaign. In a world of bounded accuracy where even small bonuses can make a huge difference, an extra +3 to +5 on ALL saving throws for both you and everyone around you is massive.
I know it feels like a small bump, and doesn't seem as impactful as something like smite (hello massive crit numbers) but sometimes that bonus is the difference between a TPK and sneaking out a win.
I still don't often put Cha ahead of Str, because the best way to keep your party alive is to kill your enemies (also smites go BRRR) but it is always at least my second highest ability score.
Its basically the Resilient feat for every stat and also your party and pets and sidekicks and summons and any other ally. Plus it gets modified by your subclass for even more effects. And it doesnt require any action economy
Aura of protection is the best class feature in the game except for spellcasting. Increasing melee damage is more fun, but if you're playing in difficult combats then bumping saving throws is so much better. 1 level in hexblade and you don't even have to choose.
the only class that is considered "mandatory" on a t3 optimized party is a paladin, because of this single feature. people multiclass 6 levels into paladin to get it more often than not, and that is seen as good
yes, aura of protection is good, and yes the optimization is to get 20 CHA before anything else
Currently running for a level 15 party, planning on going to 20. Aura of protection has come in clutch countless times. The party 100% recognizes the pally as the mvp, especially since we’ve hit higher levels and all the other goodies like improved divine smite come online. The Paladin almost 2 shot an ancient crystal dragon in one of our recent sessions (crit on both attacks, spirit shroud was up, dumped high level smites into both, using a “dragon-slayer” magic weapon). Paladins are amazing. They suffer the usual martial problems early game, but god damn do they start cooking at level 7 and beyond.
No. A 20 CHA paladin in range is an almost auto success for any saves. Save or suck things become a non-issue with a high CHA paladin in the party.
In general terms for leveling abilties I like to keep my damage stat and charisma the same and my con one or two levels below. Say 18 dex, 18 cha, 14 con. Higher con if you're foregoing a shield, but all paladins benefit from shield of faith.
When your DM is frustrated because they can't get any of you to fail a save, you know it's important. When you get hit with four breath weapon attacks in one combat and, with shield master, take no damage, you know it's working. I don't think it's over valued.
I'm not sure if reading these comments proves that it's not overhyped or that reddit very much overvalues it. I agree though that it's quite strong.
Aura of Protection is massive save and a very good class feature. As to whether one wishes to go for a 20 Charisma, that would have more to do with one's vision for the character's progression, but as many of the paladin's core features use Charisma, it makes sense.
I feel like if anything Reddit undervalues it. It’s an insane festure
I think there are two questions here:
Is Aura of Protection incredibly good? Yes, it's great.
Is it going to make or break my campaign if the paladin brings only +4 to saves instead of +5? Probably not. There with be the occasional extra failure but odds are it is not happening on a roll that decides victory and defeat.
Flat bonuses are king in 5e. Bounded accuracy limits bonuses to rolls pretty heavily, so anything that tips that scale is a big deal, and a +5 effectively adds 25% to the odds of success for any related d20 roll.
i played a paladin to level 20. took resilient constitution as a feat.
i never failed a concentration check. also death saves are saving throws. your aura is added to that. also made sure my party didn't die just from me being near them. its a HUGE deal.
I have a paladin with 20 charisma at 19th level. It singlehandedly raised the power level of the entire party by a lot. You can count on PCs to have high AC at these levels, but aura of protection makes sure everyone's got a +5 on every save. That includes death saving throws and concentration saves. And you have your 7th level feature on top of it. We have an ancients paladin, so they've got spell resistance. You'd be amazed on how much high CR monsters rely on spell damage to be threatening.
My party has two paladins, both with aura of protection, both at a +5, so most of the party are protected at all times. Which, paired with their absurd ACs and the barbarian's 200 HP, and it is stupendously difficult to provide the party with varied challenges.
If you have +5 cha you have a buff that will outdo advantage, outdo/equal proficiency in 80% of levels, while also stacking with both proficiency and advantage, for every save, on all allies including mounts summons and familiars at no action or resource cost. It might look not that impactful due to being "just" a numerical buff, but it's a BIG, free, stackable, usable by and useful to everyone numerical buff.
Having a flat +5 to all STs take effectively makes your worst saving stat as good as your best and your best save pretty much a non issue. For higher levels encounters, it’s really the only way a PC can succeed on a 20+ DC save in a stat they’re not invested in.
I’m playing a level 7 paladin with 20str and 16cha. If I could redo my ability scores/asis I would definitely swap to 16 str 20cha. The saving throw bonus is sooooo good in actual play. Making it better is easily the best thing I could do to make my party stronger. A little less damage on weapon attacks is nothing compared to avoiding nasty spell effects.
If you're doing a high-optimization whole-party build, then maxing CHA is critical for the reasons everyone else has already gotten into.
If you're running a more casual game where the party isnt necessarily going to be working together well, then it's not so critical. AoP works in a 10' radius, which requires you to stay in a pretty tight formation to benefit the whole party. As a result it comes up less often in real games than it does in a theoretical optimization setting.
A flat bonus to saving throws for the whole party is REALLY useful, especially once you start facing monsters with save DCs over 20
wonders if Reddit overvalues Aura of Protection
asks Reddit
🤔
It is too powerful, and game changing good
In my very recent games, players were saved from Hold Person, being poisoned, crown of madness all because of Aura of Protection. It was huge in changing the tide of battle in favor of the players.
Some of the spells and effects you'll face at higher levels are nasty! Missing a dex save and eating a fireball for some damage is one thing, but missing a wisdom save, and getting freighted, confused, or charmed? Best case you're out for a round or two, worst case you turn around and start smiting the wizard! Ask your party what they'd prefer.
At the very least, higher level paladins are immune to fear with Aura of Courage, and even higher level ones can dispell charm effects from spells...but yeah, charm effects suck once you start burning spell slots to smite the party XD
I'm going to guess you haven't played a lot of high level campaigns, high level characters are insanely resilient, save or suck spells and abilities are some of the few things that keep being terrifying as a player, a well positioned paladin removes a lot of that threat
See it this way, if your dm gives you an item that gives you an extra +4 or +5 to all your saving throws, no concentration, It doesn't need to be held in a hand, no charges ni uses per day, would you consider that to be a good or bad item? How about two or three at the same time?
I've lost count how many times it's saved my party in just this one campaign I'm running.
No, the ability is extremely good.
The party Pally doesn’t NEED 20 charisma but its the most optimal.
I don't see many people mentioning this is a 10ft aura for a while. There are very few times our casters get this benefit, and the fighter and paladin are consistently shuffling around all combat to stay 10ft within each other. But it's very strong when you get the benefit.
It's stupid strong and the reason why I don't let paladins multiclass into warlock
In my experience no other class feature has changed the course of the game quite like this one.
Personally, I feel it’s a bit too good, but not to the extent that I’d contemplate home brewing any change.
Most of the time, especially in tiers 1 and 2, the save DCs characters face are, usually, eminently achievable. Whacking a freebie +5 on them all can almost trivialise things.
That said, common approaches to building characters means certain saves can be trickier — mostly it’s Int and Cha, but this can vary of course for each group. This is where a party with a paladin that has a 20 Cha will do a whole lot better than a party that doesn’t.
well, spellcasting probably has affected your games more, but you probably just didn't consider it a class feature
That is true. You are quite right.
I think it's overvalued but still very strong. In my experience every paladin I've played with usually only gets themselves and an ally with the aura, at most. Players never seem to want to group around the paladin, lest they be hit by an AOE for doing so.
It's not a bad feature. It's very good for the paladin, especially for holding concentration. And if you're in a situation where you can't spread out against AOEs, it's very good again.
If you get to 18 and get the 30 foot range on the aura, it's insane. But this is level 18, not anything to build around.
I think around a 16 in CHA is the minimum, but I don't think you have to rush to 20. In my experience most players who play paladins want to do damage with a big weapon and won't have fun playing optimally with a hex dip to sit near the casters and protect them with their aura while spamming EB and other spells.
On average, advantage gives a +5 to a d20 roll. So a 20 CHA aura of protection is giving the entire party advantage on every saving throw.
Put another way: say you have a 10 in a score and you have to meet a DC 10 save. Normally you have 50% chance to succeed or fail. Aura of protection increases your chances by 10% of what they were for every modifier point. It increases your chances to 150% of what they were at 20 CHA. The same increase youd get by being proficient at level 13. It's massive.
In my super high optimization game, our paladin has 22 charisma due to a stat book. My bladesinger is incredibly unhittable, which is great, but I go out of my way to end my turn within ten feet of the paladin every turn. I went through a lot of trouble to protect my saves, and arguably the most important save-protecting feat I took is Mobile, so I can easily get into position, hit somebody, and then return to the aura.
Yes, it’s that good.
A potential +5 to saving throws for anyone with 10ft (30ft at L18) is huge, consider 5e's focus on save or dies, having a +25% better chance to make a save is huge. And it's any save. Good saves, bad saves, doesn't matter.
It's an incredibly strong ability though the main downside is grouping the party up into a 10 ft radius to stay in the paladin's aura. This means exposing the whole party to area attacks and limiting mobility.
overvaule? Wouldnt say that
Crucial? Debatable.
But its very noticable difference
Aura of protection would still be A tier if it only affected the paladin. Having a primary stat added to all your saving throws in perpetuity for no cost is just so much better than any other defensive ability.
A difference in +4 and +5 isn't huge, but its still a 5% difference in your odds of success. And unlike attack bonus / AC, there's no upper and lower limit on your chance of success to saves. A total bonus of +9 is much better than +8 because it means you can't fail DC 10 saves (such as the default concentration saving throw).
In general, there's not much better you can do after maxing out your Str (or Dex, if you're that kind of paladin) then maxxing out Cha. Unless your starting Con is very low for some reason, you will probably gain a lot more effective HP from +5 Cha than you will from +5 Con.
I'm sorry
at high levels a plus 5 to saving throw can be an extra 20% chance the following things don't happen
your high level barbarian gets dominated and turns on the party
you die instantaneously from a litch's scream
hold person, one of the most devastating spells for pcs
your wizard has his intellegence set to 1 permanently, and loses the ability to cast spells or even speak words
saving throws are very important, and when you consider that paladin is kinda a bad class (optimization speaking) and the literal only reason you play a paladin is for the aura, yes you should be maximizing your aura
25% not 20%
Paladinpilled auramaxxers
Here's the rundown, DCs get more common, more debilitating, and more difficult to pass as you gain levels. Paladin is the most effective way to deal with that, and at higher tiers is the only way you or your party will have a chance of passing saves you aren't proficient in. At lower tiers, boosting your other stats is fine, but you will really want it as high as possible going into Tier III and IV.
Let's be honest, probably everyone in your party except the artificer has a weak intelligence save, +1 or +2 tops. If you fight a single mindflayer, everyone will get hit by Mind Blast and has much less than a 50% chance of passing on a minute-long stun. Add even one Intellect Devourer and you are losing a player.
What's the average Charisma save? You and a couple classes have proficiency, but a Druid? A Monk? First time you fight a caster with Banishment (especially if it can be upcast), someone's losing a turn.
Mind Flayers don't have a lot of hitpoints, and Banishment is Concentration, so these early examples have some workarounds to failing saves, but things get much worse, and you can't afford to boost all of your stats.
Even a well prepared character will only get proficiency in 3 saves, so your chances of losing multiple actions in combat (or outright dying/getting dominated) by failing a save get higher and higher. Paladins give everyone in their aura at least a fighting chance. Artificers have to use a limited resource and a reaction to add a similar amount and Flash of Genius is still one of their strongest features.
Put simply, yes, it's really good. In mathematical terms, every +1 to a die is adding ~5% chance to succeed. So a maxed CHA bonus gives a +5, with grants a 25% increase in succeeding saves. And that's all saves, including Death Saves. So now your party members only fail a save on a 1-4. And adding a +5 to a save could be the difference between someone being able to succeed at all. So yes, it's a very useful thing to have online if you want to play a more supportive role.
Now, I will say a +3 or +4 is still really good, so if you're more concerned with increasing your strength for melee attacks then that's fine, but you should atleast consider having more Charisma.
It’s hard to rate unspecified other forums’ positions because we can’t see them, but I’ll say we are far from the only ones who suggest Aura of Protection is a Pallys most important feature.
I definitely Max Cha before I max Str on a Pally (if I even max Str which I don’t always).
It’s just such an outstanding defensive feature
It's not just the +5 to literally every save (including death saves) on top of individual proficiencies and stats.
It's having that much more of a boost on the caster half of your half caster class. Being able to tell someone to stfu and get on the ground is almost as important, or for whatever your channel divinity does (Devo channel adds cha to attack rolls), as saving your party from everything that will kill your whole party if someone screws up.
I think it's good, but I'm also of two minds with this.
It's good to have it. But also, standing within 10 feet of the Paladin for most of your career probably puts you in more danger than simply being further away would. When it hits 30 feet it's fantastic (if not overtuned)
But half the time, I'd rather just be standing out of an immediate danger zone. That also depends a lot on your class though. Like for a Paladin? Might as well strap the Paladin to your back. Wizard? Eh, could probably go either way.
Non-Swashbuckler Rogue? Oh no, baby what is you doing?
No it's one of the best features in the entire game lol, probably top 3
I'd say aura of protection is the second best thing about being a paladin after smite. It's one of the reasons hexblade paladin is so good, you can focus on boosting charisma instead of worrying about strength
Not crucial. Paladins’ auras in general are great for the team unless one plays Oath of Vengeance. OoV subs are less likely to be close enough to their party and the reason for my comment.
Obviously Aura of protection is very strong.
But playing D&D is not all about minmaxing your character like an MMORPG.
You should play your character for who your character is first, not for "the most power i can possibly squeeze out of the system".
The DMs job is to balance around your party. So it SHOULDNT matter too much how strong you are or aren't.
If you are overpowered, you will just fight against larger groups of enemies to compensate.
And if you are weaker, you will fight smaller groups to compensate.
In the end, its not about how strong you are. It's about how to choose to solve problems and survive risk.
monster spell save dc scales,
however unless you are taking resilient feat you are very likely be proficient in only one common save, so 4 out of 6 saves (in those 2 common) don't scale at all
so the best option to not be screwed by saves is to either take 2 feats or to have somone with high charisma and 6lv in paladin
No. If anything, it's undervalued. Flat 3-5 to all saving throws is one of the most if not the most powerful class feature in the game, and it only gets stronger the later the game goes, where saving throws become more and more common and with nastier and nastier effects. Having a paladin and sticking near him can easily double most of the party's chance to succeed against saving throws they're bad at, or even straight enable them to possibly succeed at all, and makes good saves much more reliable, enabling different tactics.
Reddit overvalues a lot of 5e features, aura of protection is 100% not one of them.
It is insane, and it's the reason dipping hexblade on paladin is also insane to just go CHA/CON focused.
If you don't dip Hexblade, I'd probably aim for STR/CON/CHA instead, likely having ~16 con. A less optimal build, but still very good.
Resilience increases a single saving throw bonus by 6 and is considered one of the most optimal feats. Aura of protection can increase all your saving throws for multiple party members as well as death saves
Yes, and then I'll remind you that it works on death saves.
Aura of Protection is especially strong at the higher levels where DCs easily go past 20. Lacking proficiency bonus in a save can be the difference between chance to pass and certain failure, a glaring weakness that AoP can cover very easily.
What else are you going to sink those ASIs into if you’re supposedly optimizing? You’re taking the Belt of Giant Strength so extra points into STR or DEX are going to be useless to you anyway, never mind the hexblade dip route.
Aura of Protection is easily the best ability in the game other than Spell Casting. It’s arguably stronger than any defensive spells and it costs no slots, actions, reactions, and can’t be turned off by antimagic field.
Yes, it's insanely good. Source: DM with a paladin with 20cha. He's failed like one save in the past 5 sessions and the others pretty much always save too
At high optimisation levels the paladin's job is literally just to aurabot for the casters, maybe fire some eldritch blasts starting level 8
Put it this way, it’s entirely possible RAW to be targeted by a save that you physically cannot succeed at.
Say the creature hits you with a spell and you’re concentrating, but you ate 60HP damage on the save. That’s a DC30 Concentration save right there, which is functionally impossible for all but the most CON heavy casters WITH proficiency at near endgame level. And even then, you still need 19+ on the roll.
Those kinds of rolls are often asked for, but impossible to succeed on, and your DM may not even know it until the DC is verbalized, but Aura of Protection takes it from an impossibility to a modest chance of success outright.
So yeah, it’s pretty darn huge, and that’s ignoring everything else the Paladin has going for it. It’s the benchmark for all classes for very good reason.
Let me tell ya a story kid, back when I ran my first 5e campaign, I had 2 Paladin players. No big deal right? Wrong
My dumb ass didn't realise the fact that the Auras can't stack (in my defence back then it was not really adressed / erratad). So what eneded up happening was that I had 2 high level Paladins, all the way up to level 20, with +5 and +6 charisma respectively.
Try throwing any spell at the party when they have a flat +11 bonus to saves, fun times lmao.
Half the damage you’ll take is from saves. And the truely terrible effects are also saves. To which you have a 60% chance to not have good stats. With a paladin you can actually pass high level saves. I don’t think it’s crucial but the save system right now is kinda bad. Eventually it just outscales you.
Zerxus: "are they within 10 feet of me?"
Honestly, Reddit might undervalue it, especially at higher levels where it is not just good, but close to mandatory to have a chance at many of the saves, which are what cause something like 97% or all of the worst effects.
If aura of protection was printed today, it would be considered more broken than silvery barbs.
Seriously. Peace cleric, a famously overpowered subclass's strongest effect is half an aura of protection, and it's limited in the number of people it can affect, and it's limited in duration, and it takes an action to use. (although it does come with 1 attack bless, but the saves are the more important part).
Easier comparison - resilient is one of the best feats in the game. For a half feat, you get proficiency, a lower bonus than +5 for most of the game, to one save, on one character.
Compare it to aura of protection.
Depends on your theme really. But for the most themes the Aura means a lot. I often play Crown Paladin/Elo Bard in campaigns set in Faerun, I rarely maxed cha to be honest but I think majority of the time it was at least 16 from the beginning.
I wouldn't max it for a dwarf paladin/war or forge cleric.
I definitely take at least 18 or max it for a War(Red Knight)Cleric/Conquest Paladin(or Banneret) for theme purposes rather than just the Aura.
Either way Cha is a crucial ability score for most Paladin builds not just functionally but also thematically.
Or maybe I am biased as I have played 2nd edition for more than a decade. Either way to me a pally with low Charisma seems off. But I don't think you gotta go for 20 cha. Unless you rolled and placed an 18 to it right from the get go. I don't remember getting 2 ability scores in my entire gaming experience in 5e. With any class.
If you are building your paladin as a leader/commander theme though it simply is expected of you to have high if possible max Charisma. People follow or take example of paladins for multiple reasons, and primary reason is Charisma after all...
No.
Nah Aura of Protection is basically a must have at high levels, otherwise any given save from a mini boss or boss is impossible to pass for atleast half a party.
It's so important that it's worth it to go paladin just for it, or take paladin 6 in other builds for it.
Eh, having like a 16 in cha is a solid bonus for anyone. I prefer to Max it myself but it's really up to how you want to play. A plus 5 to saving throws is phenomenal for sure, but the paladin is pretty diverse and if you feel like your guy is less magically inclined, or just doesn't care much about his allies, you could show that by going strength heavy instead and and doing less with cha altogether.
Idk why people are arguing so much for deaths saves to be of so much importance at high levels. Healing word, revivify, and all the resurrection type spells make death saves less important. As someone who has run several high level campaigns, spells that just flat out remove players from the battlefield are far more effective. Any type of charm/mind control spell on martials are big problems. Not to mention in my experience, higher level spells that just remove death saves like finger of death, disintgrate or monster abilities that result in instant death are far more likely and dangerous than trying to make 3 death saves.
Hell, last session of the game I run, the level 16 party almost lost their cleric to an intellect devourer because the paladin was out of range because he failed the first int save. If he would have failed the second saving throw no one would have been able to bring him back as the other casters don't have the higher level resurrection type spells. In the past, I have had high level characters die to those type of spells and abilities. I can't ever recall a high level game where someone died from 3 death saves unless it was on a multi-attack where a PC went down on the first hit and the enemy made sure they stayed down afterwards. In those cases, death saves are irrelevant as well.
I don't think I can count all the times that the paladin's aura of protection has saved another character from going down/failing an important save/etc. It's just so so much value all across the board.
Aura of protection pretty much allows a high-level party to stay bunched up with the pally and coordinate attacks.
Imagine a barbarian with +5 to WIS saves to prevent "dominate person" while he goes toe to toe with an evil wizard.
Or the Cleric having a +5 to a dex save & the sheild master feat, just before the ancient red dragon unloads his breath weapon.
Aura of protection at high levels could literally mean the difference between life and death for the party, with you as the cause.
Thanks to roll for stats, was able to make my Ponk Multiclass (paladin 6/monk 14). Prof in all saving throws PLUS Cha mod is VERY fun. I say is because Im still playing it :3
At around 12th level the enemy tactics tend to change from attacking to saving throws to be disruptive to players. If your game is ending at or before 11th level - your Paladin might want to burst damage smite enemies into oblivion to keep the party safe. However, once the party is getting banished or eye beamed by beholders or suffering dragons breath weapons as the main party threats the Paladin that has focused on defensive aura will be far more valuable than the heavy hitter is. So likely no it’s not an over evaluation but there is a shift when you notice that the real threats are failed saving throws instead of being hit hard.
Affects that force saving throws can be horrendous to fail and any bonus possible to succeed them is amazing. Like the Artificers capstone gives them +6 in every saving throw, but Paladin can do +5 to all nearby allies which is arguably better. But for the Artificer and Monk they have +11 to every saving throw now plus whatever their stat is making them about 55% more likely to succeed every throw that could be the difference between life and death. And if the Artificer is an Artillerist they can give everyone another +2 to dex saves which is one of the most important and often one Paladin lacks so them combined are amazing
To the extent that the Paladin absolutely needs a +5 to Charisma? Debatable. To the extent that the Paladin should have at least a +3, or by higher levels, a +4? Probably not overvalued. Insofar as it's approximately as important a feature as Extra Attack, when considering when to multiclass, if that's in question? No.
You might think the area is too small. One thing to note is that the dominant reading of '10 foot radius from your character' is that this means '10 feet from the edge of your character'.
If your character is a medium creature, then you take up a 5foot square, so 10 feet around you is 2 squares in any direction. So this nominal "10 foot radius" aura is not 20 feet across as expected, but 25 feet across, which means it covers 9 more squares, which is ~50% more area than a actual 10foot radius area would.
(Many tables treat diagonals as not being longer as per the PHB, but if you use the optional DMG rules for treating diagonals realistically this might change the maths do this will change the maths a bit, but still gives a similar idea because it is actually still 9 more suares than you'd expect from a 10foot radius.)
One thing to note is that the dominant reading of '10 foot radius from your character' is that this means '10 feet from the edge of your character'.
That is because the rule in no way mentions radius.
creature within 10 feet of you
Maxing that is nice but you can get by with 16 cha.
Aura of protection is a strange ability because it band-aids the poor save system of 5e if you have access to it, and prevents a lot of no-win save circumstances if played with.
It's a very strong feature because saves in 5e are a bit botched and it helps those benefitting from it (you and the team) from suffering endgame botched save scaling.
I wouldn't say reddit overvalued it, but they do overhate its existence. Which can be said about a lot of things d&d related.
Actually It depends on the party Comp in my opinion, if you are the only melee or the party does not actually happen to be around the Paladin consistently, since in this situation you can keep the mobs away from the caster/ranged but It would mean to not have them in the aura of protection range since of they are within 10 feet of you the mobs would probably be able to attack them. If your party have more melee and High mobility characters that can use the aura much freely It's pretty much the strongest or One of the strongest ability in the game. However the ability Is insane for the Paladin itself the aura can be considered icing on the cake. When the aura expands at 18th It gets insanely strong but at that point the others classes get also abilities are not that much weaker (Wish, foresight, shapechange or endless spells and so on)
Interesting. I'm theorycrafting the whole party, so I'll definitely have to keep this in mind as I decide the other party members (probably mostly Cleric, Artificer, and Warlock).
Even if the cleric is the only one in this party that reliably gets the buff it's going to be insanely useful for Concentration checks(con saves). It's going to reduce the amount of damage they take from spells many times (reducing the DC of the Con save) and then it will give them a bonus to that same Con save. You literally double dip on it.
If the Artificer/Warlock/both end up being melee builds it is going to be extremely useful.
I would swap Warlock for any wizard (exept divination) simply because It Is the "baseline"spell caster no fancy metamagic, limited slots and without a cantrip that Is better than most 1st and 2nd level spells (damage wise). At least if you want to go with an average party i don't know if you have anything in mind
High level you would want max cha as dc for higher monsters are super high and if people are not proficient in it likely they will fall. You can always get str increasing magic items to boost your martial stat like gloves of orge power or any of the belts.
It isn’t important as in that your character will not suddenly suck because your cha is 18 and I would rather have an 18 cha pally in the party than a monk in terms of optimization any day of the week.
However, there is no way from an optimization perspective to justify the choice. Failing saving throws is literally how TPKs happen at higher levels, reducing that chance is VERY powerful and VERY importan. Not to mention all else charisma does for a pally.
it's helped out a lot in the game i'm currently in :)
I've been stuck at 16 CHA for a while now, even a +3 with AoP is amazing at level 10.
I’d argue it’s probably the best single ability/feature in the game. Resourceless, helps multiple people at once, doubles down on the Paladin’s saves as well. At least in tier 2, i can’t think of anything better other than maybe portent.
It's mainly a question of party composition. If you're the only or one of 2 melee in a party of 6 where everyone else tends to be at least 60-90ft from you then it isn't really worth it. If you are one of 4 melee combatants in a party of 6 where most of you are always going to be in the thick of things and in aura range it is invaluable.
DM for a while with and without a paladin 18+ in your group. You'll see
Perhaps a little overvalued. Even if so, it's still overpowered in the sense that it is highly, highly effective but makes combat less interesting. It turns a lot of the most engaging stuff into non-events without any action on the players' part. You are simply unaffected by things instead of counterplaying them. Definitely a case of "players will optimize all the fun out of the game."
That being said, you're asking about maxing charisma. In practice, 18 vs 20 charisma is significant but hardly crucial. I tend to play dynamic battles on large maps with a lot of creatures on the board, so the aura has limited coverage. And keeping people within its radius entails risks (having a bonus on your save against dragon breath isn't as good as not being in the dragon breath). As the group moves around, you're unlikely to have them all inside the bubble at a given moment. It's very dependent on the situation. YMMV
I mean... Bless is one of the best from 1 to 4lv spells.
Aura is like a half of this spells, but twice as good at the same time. It's good.
It's a really good feature, but I do think it's overvalued, yeah. I see people acting like it will apply to the whole party, which might be reasonable when the aura goes to 30 feet, but before then it's just not realistic.
It's a defensive buff for you, and an occasional one for your party. Particularly strong on an ancients paladin Vs casters.
It's not imperative to have it, but every 1 point of charisma is a 5% increased chance of making a saving throw.
It is huge, and a bane for DMs, but no one has the right to tell you how much CHA your paladin must have.
No, because Reddit paladins are all hexadins with max charisma.
Aura of Protection usually lands in the bottom of top 5 things to bring to the table. It's not as good as the Bless buff, guaranteeing advantage for your rogue, or high AC for example, but at some point you will gotten as high AC as you can reasonably get and then can start looking at buffing other things like Saves.
guaranteeing advantage for your rogue is not anywhere near Top 5, considering that requires bringing a rogue in the first place
There's no objectively correct answer here. Unlike an MMO or other setting in which all participants are on equal footing, DnD is a game where every group is going to have a different experience with what does or does not work. Aura of Protection's value to the party depends heavily on how often the DM causes the party to make saves. In a vacuum, it's one of the best features in the game, drastically improving the resiliency of the paladin and their party members. In practice, if the DM is mostly just throwing martial enemies at the party, it will go largely unused.
Given that charisma also improves the power of paladin spellcasting and the number of spells they can prepare, as well as impacting several subclass features, it's always a good stat to have regardless of how good Aura of Protection is in a given campaign. Whether or not it's a better ASI investment than strength, or better than feats like GWM, PAM, Sentinel, and other similar options, will be up to your own evaluation of your campaign.
Aura of protection IS a huge deal, yes. Like, much more than you think in the moment. Pound for pound it will save your party so much anguish.