Around 95% of the playerbase don't actually know how to do Riven legit, so literally all you would really need to do to make it "tough" is simply just block the ability to use the cheese, forcing you to do the fight properly
Considering the fight normally is one of the hardest and lengthiest fights in the entire game, it'll be a really funny way to make the fight "hard" without even changing anything at all
I met a crew that believed this and we did a legit run. Tbf if you know what to do it's not too bad and we cleared in 1 "phase". At -20 I bet teams only take 2 runs to get to the end.
I think riven is been pretty powercrept, add the surges and the modifier which'll probably be shot caller, she'll still get 1 phased next week.
Tell that to the 12 tormentors who are gonna spawn when you have to dps her heart. Im joking and apologize if this actually happens
saving this comment for when it drops with 12 tormentors
HOW DARE YOU! Jk lol
6 behemoth titans would make it a cakewalk.
People definitely forget how insanely hard last wish was without riven cheese and around when it launched. Now it's a pretty trivial raid overall
I honestly think it's such a good piece of content that it deserves a balancing pass to make it more challenging, including getting rid of riven cheese
Yes but we have so much more cheese now. All we need to do is figure out how to do it legit consistently and riven will get farmed
I'm fine with her being farmed, that's intended, I just don't like such a good raid ending with cheese no matter which group you go in with because that's the meta strat. It's basically on the level of knocking atheon off the cliff and they fixed that
I don't know how you fix riven cheese without drastically increasing her health (like, triple) which could cause issues even for teams doing it legit who just aren't amazing at damage rotations, or completely reworking her mechanics from the ground up. So much of her stuff is based on doing constant chip damage throughout all mechanics, so anything that can burn her down will always be able to do so.
Just make her feet immune, or take way less damage
You can still one-phase with Prospector today, feet are just part of a much larger problem.
Even then people will use ways to do the cheese with only shooting her mouth like we used to do.
All they have to do health gate her
At least that's slightly better, I think you just make her take way less damage without the mechanics being complete, probably tuned so that really well organized teams could still cheese but otherwise I won't work, but make her feet basically immune
I actually hate cheesing her because the raid is so good done properly imo, one of the best
If she takes more than X damage in a phase, she automatically moves on immediately (wiping you if you failed to do the thing you needed to do)
Any legit strat isn't doing more than 1/4 of her health MAX when she's in a room because there's fewer than 6 people on a side
Or make her immune from damage in the first room/floor but none of the others
Or make there be a precondition to her spawning in a room, like people on each side killing a first wave of adds
Or make it so if there is one side with more people than the other, she will always spawn on the "wrong" side for the cheese
Or just hide which side she's going to spawn on, so it can't be predicted
Or fix the section where you will get teleported back to the main room from the side room (these last two don't 'fix' the cheese, but make it take at least twice as long on average to do, which would make people want to do it less)
I'm willing to buy that Bungie thinks it's not worth it to fix, or it would take too much time investment to do. But it's just blatantly not true that you have to rework her entirely if you want to remove the cheese
Legit Riven is not that bad at all, but the existence of an “easy mode” means people don’t even try to learn it
Maybe, during the world’s first riven, most of the damage came from popping her pimples in the second part of the damage phase, iirc.
This is correct, which is why if the balance a damage modifier to the pimples to be higher, and lower for the mouth/arms, then it forces the second damage phase. Lower the amount of damage needed to stun her to show eyes, lower the damage taken in her mouth, and up the boil/pimple damage
I think they might remove the joining allies to make it slightly harder
That just makes it a 50/50 chance. Only a mild inconvenience for anyone who isnt trying something insane like flawless.
That's why they haven't fixed that yet, it's a mild inconvenience that won't stop people from doing the cheese, so why waste the dev time.
That’s my point. Doesn’t make it much harder but makes it slightly harder
When you glitch rhulk you get plat no matter what, so this logic doesn't really make sense.
Well yea but that’s because they didn’t intend for you to glitch Rhulk, so the time score multiplier gives u a crap ton. Riven they 100% have known about for years and could just make the time bonus not add that much.
This is correct except there is no “keeping in”. This isn’t new code lol they can’t remove the cheese or they already would have. The cheese was never not being included, it will just be pointless as you said because you won’t achieve plat.
That’s what I meant (tho I can see what you mean with my wording). Only way they could really do anything to prevent cheese is the score (which wouldn’t matter for those not going for plat) or somehow add something that you HAVE to do, but none of the others have really done anything like that.
its riven? I thought it was nezarec
It’s both (not kidding btw)
Bungie said "fuck you guys, here's TWO more bosses for the final week"
doubt itll be super hard atleast for nez, he was pretty easy during contest mode and pantheon isnt as bad as contest mode esp with surges and other modifiers
I'm guessing there's gonna be some tormentors around, that would need to be killed asap, and they miight just make it that Nez is doing the booping thing again while also chasing someone around.
Some people have theorized the change might be that standing on a plate makes you take damage.
Unless they're bosses they're a complete joke though because you can just perma blind/suspend/whatever them
Actually yeah
You say that about Nez but many had issues getting plat on planets. Yeah Nez is probably gonna be an easy fight but depending what the "change" is whether its a tormentor spawns every time you break shoulders, or you have to activate two safe zones in order to no wipe , well see.
All they have to do is make it so you can’t camp a plate and are forced to do the encounter with him as a roaming boss like was originally intended and Nez will suddenly be a lot harder.
I've always kinda liked Nezarec anyways. Yeah there's not many mechanics but it's nice to have another mobile boss fight like Rhulk.
Nezarec Sublime adds Riven and Nezarec.
Literally just give her even just one health threshold, that's all they'd have to do.
I don't think they'd even need to do that. You're 20 under powered. I wouldnt think you could do enough damage to 1 phase her
You can currently solo her with ease due to the artifact, 6 ppl at ~50% regular damage output due to scaling will most likely achive the cheese either way
Innnnteresting.
A stasis titan can solo her in normal so you could definitely cheese her still.
Is that glitch even still a thing
Not really a glitch its just forming a bunch of stasis crystals under the huge hitbox of riven's arm
Is there any set up involved? Like do I need to tractor cannon her first? Might give this a try today
look up a video of it. you should have tractor and i think the fragment that makes shatters do more damage
And also Syntho’s for more super damage
Maybe, but me and my team were practicing legit a month ago, and our first damage phase we reached final stand. Keep in mind with legit there were only three of us doing damage. So if you were cheesing you’d have twice that damage, which I think would make up for the -20.
Wasnt d1 oryx only damged via Setting bombs off Killing his shadow in the Thunder Dome?
Lock platinum score behind killing enough adds which can only be done if you do riven legit. Boom. Easy fix. Can you beat it by cheesing? Sure. But you won't be able to get platinum by cheering. I can just about guarantee that.
I think that's probably the reason she's before nez and launching on the same week, so you won't get the wacky bonus for the final boss.
It would still be like the second or third easiest boss in there.
You just save the behemoth titan supers for the top floor while you kill adds on the way. You don’t even have to worry about damage on the middle floors so you just kill adds and immediately shoot eyes. Without having to do damage those first 2 floors don’t have a ton to do. Maybe that’s all they want though, just to force people to learn it, even if it is easy.
They’d basically have to remove her arms or drastically increase her health for behemoth titans to not be used to kill her.
There's ways. Pervading Darkness debuff if you stand in the paw-swiping area, having her react and close her mouth (or do the eye wipe mechanic) if 50% of her health bar goes away on one floor, that sort of thing.
She actually is doing the eye wipe mechanic when you're cheesing her and that's the time limit to burst her down because you obviously don't know the eyes. Unless you're saying everyone should just instantly wipe the moment she takes 50% damage which seems kinda weird.
I'm saying that eyes should be reworked to prevent the cheese as it stands. For example, my thought previously was that the countdown to eyes going off should be cut short if 50% of her health is depleted in a single floor, but there's almost certainly better ways of doing that. For example, maybe she doesn't automatically retreat if the right eyes are popped, instead waiting to retreat (or wipe) until a chunk of her health bar is taken away (taking a page out of Caretaker's book).
I mean for pantheon most people suspect you will need to do it legit for the high score. In terms of changing the encounter to force it to be done legit I mean the most straightforward and obviously solution to me seems to be just to have health gates before top floor. I mean shuro chi from the same raid has six of them to force you to do mechanics so it doesn't seem like much of a leap and it doesn't require programming new behavior for riven.
In essence, I'm proposing soft health gates, like Caretaker, or Spire's Harpy boss. The difference being that you need to pop eyes before that health gate runs out, or you wipe.
Aren't people only able to do enough damage to bypass mechanics due to having the entire raid team on one side?
Behemoth Titans don’t need the entire team to accompany them. 2 on the same side + Tractor is likely enough.
I doubt 2 will be enough at -20
It probably will, it barely takes any effort in normal.
Normal is 40 power above next week’s pantheon though.
The difference between being overleveled by 20 (as we normally are) and being under-level by 20 is a 50% damage drop (technically 48.8%). It might still be doable with 3 behemoths on a side if it’s Stasis surge and you get a good chunk of that missing damage back.
Maybe one side has to do the mechanics and have a guy shoot the eyes, and then the other side kills her.
I think it’s going to be a score issue doing that. But even then you just do the mechanics, ignore damage on the floors killing adds and then up top you go all out with behemoth titans. That would be in the top 3 easiest bosses in there still.
Yeah, I’m curious to see what they do to change the encounter because just forcing the legit mechanics alone probably won’t be enough to make it truly hard like you note.
I assume in keeping with the theme so far Tormenters will probably show up at some point — having them appear when someone starts to look through the glass would be an interesting way to disrupt that part of the fight since you’d then be forced to handle the Tormenter with just two people or kite it with one while the other actually goes to the symbol, which could put some interesting time pressure on that part of the encounter.
I think no matter what Riven won’t be a hard DPS check even if they somehow patch out Behemoth damage entirely, so it’s going to come down to how hard they make the mechanics phases I think.
Yeah all I can think of is them covering up her hands, so you can’t behemoth there? But they haven’t seemed to modify and encounter spaces yet so that seems unlikely.
You can 2 behemoth titan kill her regularly pretty easily. I don’t see how 5 and a well (just for survival) wouldn’t do it.
Even if they force you to separate sides, then you just do 2 and 2 with 2 warlocks to give you a well and shoot eyes. Worst case you kill her first damage phase second floor. You’d probably have to do one floors mechanics though, so maybe they will consider that enough.
Maybe they make it so the timer isn’t enough and you have to wait to burn her for the top floor just to get enough adds, but even that doesn’t sound hard.
I mean all they really have to do is make the cysts phase a required part of advancing the encounter and it completely fixes the whole thing. And it’s not like they haven’t been adding/messing with mechanics and triggers for pantheon.
The funniest part is Riven Legit is actually not even hard. It’s just shoot the eye you are told, stand in one spot and cleanse, and DPS.
It’s really just that last wish callouts kinda suck ass
Pretty much yeah, I have never learned their real names I just have done “bird on branch looking left” or “Down Bird”. I think “8 snake” and “Cloud Snake” are pretty universal
What real names? I don’t think there is a real reading, unlike Vow that gave us a room to learn the dictionary.
Not a clue and I have a Petra’s run completed. So yeah
My clan totally knows how to do it legit….
Fuck it, 2 Rivens
A Shadow Rhulk on each floor
My brother in the light, 95% of the playerbase has never done ANY raid at all. Out of the 5% that have done one only a small portion has done a full run of Last Wish, and out of that portion only an even small portion has done legit Riven
My first experience on d2 was literally a friend showing me the riven cheese.
I'd love to see some invulnerable claws.
Riven will 100% be the widow maker for teams. Especially if the cheese isn't possible, which I have a suspicion it won't be.
Did around 15 legit runs for that bitch. I'm ready for her
I'd reckon the number is higher than 95%, more like 97%. It's a fun fight to do legit it just takes a while to get the hang of and man, at -20 it'd be tough.
I really don’t think it will be that bad. Just kill adds all the way up, so the relatively simple mechanics and shoot eyes pretty much immediately. On the top floor all titans pop supers and burn her. The middle floors are difficult because you are trying to do some damage as well. If you can ignore damage there the only challenge is the add clear on the top floor, but that’s manageable, maybe even assign a roaming super to it.
Sure people will have to learn the mechanics during it but that’s really not too hard.
Will almost certainly suck for LFG though.
I think the ads will be the LFG killer if Explicator is any indication. I can teach the mechanic fairly easily.
This is impossible unless they change the mechanics
The riven cheese is just doing a crazy amount of damage in a short time
The most they can do is get rid of the turn back zone
Even then you'd just 50/50 it until she shows up in your room first then do the cheese anyway. That being said, legit Riven isn't even that hard to begin with so it probably won't matter much anyway outside of LFG.
This aged poorly. It turns out they can just give her a 90% damage reduction for 2 floors.
Well well well
Those mfers really just patched the cheese and called it a day. That's hilarious. Literally nothing changed mechanics-wise, only 1-2 new enemy spawns and the the cheese being impossible to do even with brute force
Grow up
I hope the cheese is impossible. Players and LFG will melt down. It will be glorious
Bruh it's already insanely bad as is.
I know, and it's only -15, hilarious. Next it'll be even harder with more bosses including one 99% of the community doesn't even know how to fight properly in an 7.5 year old raid. It's going to be crazy next week.
I think they change it so she has way higher health but damaging the warts on her back deals way more damage, meaning you have to do at least a full cycle to get the kill. Personally I can't wait to see people crumble.
Best fight in the game and people don't play it cos it's easier to cheese it. Imo cheesing is one step removed from cheating, there's still no satisfaction you've actually achieved anything. Buck up and do it right people
Imagine we don't fight her at all , we're just doing the queens walk :5650:
Youre gonna need to kill tormentors to activate elevators, and you'll need to do her legit to get platinum. I'm pretty sure thats all.
After watching some tutorials (most dattos 2402 riven one) i have some good sense of how riven works, but i still need to do it in person to fully get a grasp. Plus tbh im actually excited for legit riven, I understand why people do the cheese, its a time saver, but man its boring.
This title honestly made me think this was the League of Legends sub or something
riven legit is one of the easier final bosses in the game currently the mechanics are dungeon levels of simple
I just learned last week how to do legit it’s not bad.
The change is that you can only hit riven in the mouth for damage, so in a roundabout way you’re absolutely correct
Not really a cheese, Bungo confirmed that 6 years ago, but if they could just simply change something that forces doing legitimate mechanics would be pretty cool, if not easy.
This is one of those times I'm confused by not looking at the subreddit first.
I've been reading a lot of League of Legends stuff today, lol.
As a guy who’s done every single week in lfg all plat timed and high score with no team im already impressed I got this far
If they let the Rhulk glitch go through, which people were saying was going to be the most troublesome boss, I don't think they care about fixing the riven cheese.
Legit Riven is not as hard as it used to be, we are so much stronger than previously. I think you might be able to shit out enough damage to kill her 20 under, but getting the platinum score is absolutely going to require doing the fight legitimately.
There should be a Rhulk inside of her waiting for you at the end of it, guarding the blight.
It took me 50 clears of Last Wish to get 1K. I never even learned how to do riven the right way. And to this day, I still don't
What if the change was that you had to do riven + queenswalk back to back
Fun Fact: Riven has no cheese
You're forgetting supers. They can't make the tentacles immune for everything unless they make it only damagable with supers. Overall, I agree that the majority probably don't know how to do the fight legit.
That's what i suggested earlier XD just make doing the cheese cause a wipe and then sit back and laugh as the "pantheon isn't for learning raids" group have to do the very thing they want to degrade everyone else for XD
Or, you could just learn to do riven legit in Last Wish, it even gives you a free checkpoint with the wall, just saying.
Same thing?
Learning in Last Wish and in -20 while in Pantheon is most certainly not the same thing, you do you do, not like I can stop anyone.
I would like it if they just made it a 50/50 thing like normal (so you can cheese it if you want, only extinguish is on, so more people would just do it properly because running the entire raid over again for a chance isn't worth it at all (cps would have to be turned off though, like a gauntlet ought to be tbh)
Who would know what changes they've made as we don't know how it goes anyway
Part of me thinks they may actually keep in the cheese, but the score needed to actually get platinum won’t be possible with the cheese as there may not be enough ads.