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Anyone else feel like we just passed the point of no return?
Low-effort - Rule 6I believe that we need to hold two perspectives at the same time:
We need to allow people the space to express gloom and doom, because that is the most authentic emotional reaction to the devastating Christian Nationalist attacks against American democracy. We are in a very bad spot right now, and to pretend otherwise is fantasy. Denying people the space to express their panic is disrespectful and will drive people away.
We need to show people a path out of the gloom and doom, because atheists don't believe in any kind of divine destiny, whether it's a negative doom or a pie-in-the-sky utopian future. The future will be made by us, and there are things we can do.
The Congress of the USA can pass a constitutional amendment that abolishes presidential immunity. This would overrule the outrageous Trump v. United States ruling yesterday, and restore full American democracy.
In order for this to happen, we need as many progressive Democrats in the US Congress as possible.
Don't just wait until Election Day to vote. It's time to stand up and be the kind of American you believe you ought to be. Embody democracy. Get out and canvass for your House and Senate Democratic candidates. They need your help!
Congress isn't going to pass any Constitutional amendments anytime soon. Best to pack the SCOTUS and retry all these cases.
We'd also need 3/4 of the three states to ratify it, and there's no way that's gonna happen.
Still waiting on the equal rights amendment.
it's insane that that gimme amendment has been so hard to pass.
The Congress of the USA can pass a constitutional amendment that abolishes presidential immunity. This would overrule the outrageous Trump v. United States ruling yesterday, and restore full American democracy.
In order for this to happen, we need as many progressive Democrats in the US Congress as possible.
We need a filibuster proof majority in the Senate which is 60 votes. Even if there are sane moderate Republicans that haven't resigned yet they won't stand up to Trump and destroy their career. They like having a important job with all the prestige and perks that go with it.
Trump may be a fucking moron but his reptile survival instinct is very strong. He immediately started weaponizing the new power he's been granted. He understands that he has won YUGE and knows that some of the moderate Republicans might balk at him becoming a dictator.
Trump Amplifies Calls to Jail Top Elected Officials, Invokes Military Tribunals
And to impeach SCOTUS justices we need 67
A impossibility in today's world.
The framers were somewhat idealistic. They envisioned leading government as a honorable and noble endeavor. They understood that human nature might interfere with stray individuals but they didn't build the constitution to withstand the treachery of a widespread and powerful political party who's loyalty is not with America but with their own greedy and corrupt party.
We had a good run. Hopefully history books will continue to tell the tale of the greatest democracy in the world and it's downfall far into the future.
that's why we need to pack the court instead, only need 50 for that.
Stop calling it " packing the court". What we really need to do is have 1 justice for each circuit (13) split the 9th circuit (29 judges when most circuits have 16) in half and add a 14th circuit and have the chief justice represent the federal circuit. That way we will have 15 justices and equal representation under the law for all circuits as they will have an assigned justice for stays, and other immediate matters that come before the court.
You don’t. An emperor can do as he wishes by decree. It will take decades to litigate while you rule unfettered
People have been saying this same thing for years. yet here we are. No, it’s time to start throwing tea into the bay.
There’s no more trusting the system. The system is rigged in the enemies favor. We are going to have to literally fight for our freedoms
This is the exact reason why I hope it keeps getting worse, much worse. I hope it's worse than all these people complaining think it will be. See I really don't understand how much worse it actually has to get before enough people are ready to fight again, not just complain, no lt just protest, but actually fucking fight. I'd vote for the worst possible outcome for each election just to speed this process up and enjoy the show. But it's all just fantasy, complacent slaves are unfortunately the majority nowadays.
Yes, people have been saying that more people need to get involved in the democratic process for years. That's because it's a good idea.
If we try to literally fight for our freedoms, we're going to lose badly.
Donald Trump in office will have military drones to rain hell down from the skies. He'll have government spies. He'll have the infrastructure of law enforcement at his disposal. He'll also have half the American population on his side - the people much more likely to own high-powered guns.
We would have a disorganized bunch of people spread loosely throughout the country with some rifles and kitchen knives.
Armed insurrection is not only poorly conceived (who do you attack, and how does attacking them restore democracy?), it will almost certainly fail.
I agree. Don't trust the system. Atheists are always skeptical. Also be skeptical, however, of the urge to violence.
I’m imagining a civil war, not a rag tag insurrection. You think blue states are just going to roll over and let trump put people in camps? Send in troops to put down protests?
I don’t believe all of the military or all of the police etc will just fall in line behind Trump. Blue states and blue cities have the economic and numbers advantage. They have much better odds than you think
The bigger the weapons that are involved, the more suffering they're going to cause. War is the opposite of freedom. It kills people simply for being on the other side of a conflict. It's the seizure of power without regard for human rights. Fighting for freedom is an oxymoron.
No, not ALL members of the military and police will fall in line behind Trump. Most of them will. I don't think the odds of a military victory against that are good at all.
The moral high ground of opposition to Trump will be lost if Trump opponents become violent.
Violence is the most crude, ineffective means possible of settling a political dispute. Let's be better than that.
Well I hope you can take solace in the fact that you maintained the moral high ground with a jackboot on your neck.
Yes, I'd rather go down the right way, than to become the same kind of violent jerk that I oppose.
If the government of the United States of America becomes fascist, there will be no stopping its jackboot from stomping on my neck or yours.
The idea that you can stop the US military and law enforcement with your little handgun is absurd.
I’ll take as many of them with me as I can
Beautifully said. Many thanks.
Republican presidential candidates have lost the popular vote and been elected President. TWICE.
As a teen, when I found out USA doesnt use popular vote, I was dumbfounded. And lost all care for the system ever since
Twice this century.
Twice in 16 years. The last 2 Republican presidents didn't even get a majority. That means the dick bags on the Supreme Court were appointed by presidents with only minority support
It is insane....minority rule.
Tyranny of the minority, that's America.
Yes, I’d like someone to explain to me how that works in a democracy. Let me get comfortable…….
Those of us who know how to live without a make believe “magic man” in the sky have to lead the way!
Time for DOING! Not wishing! (Praying)
I've been thinking of what I can do, but I'm in Florida and in a 70% red county. There is zero chance we will get a Democrat elected for anything. I'm focusing on our local school board to fight against the book bans and them wanting to force kids to stand for the pledge, but it is an uphill battle.
What you're doing with the local school board matters! Standing up to the bullies at all levels is important. Thank you!
If anyone has skills with art and video and media, we need people to go to work making this message spread far and wide. We need to plaster the consequences and the way out of them All over everyones feeds.
I mean, we couldn’t even get Congress to pass the recent bipartisan Schumer amendment for transparency due to blockage of Republicans, the very same ones who will be going all-in on fascism and getting Trump back. Hoping Congress does the right thing isn’t something I’d bank on, majority of them only care about themselves not us. Asking them to magically find a heart is like praying that priests will stop molesting children. Highly unlikely.
We also can’t flip any of these seats even if we turn up due to gerrymandering. Even if every liberal showed to vote if their district is drawn to have more conservatives they are pretty much handed the win.
The problem is there is corruption at every level and too many safeguards to keep the corrupt in power which is by intention.
Thank you for this, that was wonderfully said.
They can also pass legislation to castrate the SCOTUS. Congress should have the power, our decline is because the Republicans in Congress won't vote for anything that would actually better the lives of citizens. They are nothing more than elected lobbyists.
I don't think you realize just how near to impossible passing an amendment is in the foreseeable future.
It becomes even more difficult if we don't take action to get more members of Congress who think progressively.
Once the grief is done, there will be fury.
There already is, it's time to arm up if not already.
And from the basements of their parents they will rise, wielding the mighty axes they purchased at the local renaissance fair. Firearms are no match for these noble warriors, their battle-tested experience from countless hours of WoW will carry the heroes to victory. The fury will be real, and the enemies shall be bloodied and defeated.
Just kidding, you nutsacks aren’t gonna do shit :D
How's the weather looking?
Lol
Yeah, I think we're at the point where we need to take "whatever you think you would've done in pre-Hitler Germany, you should start doing now" pretty fucking seriously. Project 2025 is their hit list, they're not shy about who they're going after. I don't know what number atheists are on the list, but we're definitely on there. We need to hang together now (with all whom they seek to oppress), or we shall surely hang separately.
Just vote- every election every time. National, state, and local. Vote
Exactly. People think the presidential election is the be all end all, but EVERY election needs to be treated that way and participated in, from local school board all the way up. The christofascists know this, and THAT is why they are kicking America’s ass and edging us to fascism.
Yes this!
Joe Biden isn't my man but I'll take him and his assembled team of experts over Trump and his Christian nationalist
No, not at all. We need to fight this fight and put liberal judges in. The only way to do it is to elect a democrat as president and senators. We have work to do but this is far from over. Let’s get the shit done.
We need to stop with the gloom and doom and actually coalesce around the one candidate we have right now. This isn't over yet and now is the time to actually start working together to turn out large numbers of people to vote along the lines of our ideals and vision for what the future should be.
I was pretty shell-shocked by the vast implications of yesterday's ruling myself, and it's hard to find a silver lining or see how this can be turned around any time soon.
But I agree with you that at some point, it is time to pick ourselves up, dust ourselves off, and keep fighting for our democracy. Everyone takes a different amount of time to reach that point and I foresee the "doom and gloom" posts to continue for at least another few days to a week.
After a while, it turns into defeatism and only blocks the path to change.
Young voters need to vote. They feel disenfranchised because no one listens to them but they don't vote so that continues.
It's basically a self-reinforced own goal. And as much as they hate it, young people will need to become a consistent voting block before they are heard. The reverse will never happen.
ehh...i've been voting all along, and I'm no longer "young people" and they still don't listen to me. They listen to the boomers, no matter their age.
Those rulings are set in stone for years to come, possibly. But much like Chevron and Roe, they got overturned. We can’t be afraid to set things straight, even if we don’t experience it in our lifetimes. Republicans had a decades long game plan of marching into autocracy, now it’s time for people to coalesce around the only viable party that stands up for the Constitution and individual freedoms.
The problem with that is that even in the best- case scenario, Democrats win the House and the Presidency, and a slight majority in the Senate. The Senate will still have enough Republicans to completely gum up or stop all major business (including Supreme Court nominations) in Congress for 2 more years, which will lead to blaming Democrats for not getting anything done. We need a blue wave in 2 years on top of a win this year for any real hope, and then another win in 4 to start putting things back together with any sort of actual seriousness. We have every right to be doom and gloomy, we just have to get gritty along with it. We're going to have to claw our rights back, and it won't be fun. Get involved.
We need to be gritty because the worst outcomes are dystopian. But sitting around and saying it’s all over and all is lost is complete horseshit and does none of us good because nothing has come to pass yet.
A Biden 2nd term doesn't address this problem. It band aids it. The court needs to be packed or this ruling reversed. Biden could attempt to do that right now while he's still in office.
this ruling, and chevron, and dobbs...and so many others (i really can't overstate how apocalyptically catastrophic the chevron ruling last week is in the long term)
Indeed. The opposition party should do something about it. AOC just suggested impeaching justices. Biden needs to get his ass in gear.
Unfortunately stupid people only being willing to vote for do nothing liberals makes it impossible to win the long term. Even if we coalesce in 2024 it won't matter because if you don't gain ground you are losing it. You can't have weak people willing to let others abuse the system while doing nothing.
Biden will be a death knell for democracy. Whitmer is probably the only real hope and that assumes before 2028 the entire Clinton-nite class is removed from all leadership rolls. All of this is impossible without a serious shift in the intelligence of the electorate which there is no reason to think they will have. Voting younger doesn't matter unless the moderates move out of the way, the moderates would rather have fascists than fix this and that is the crux of why we are where we are.
You can't motivate people with the threat of eternal suffering forever, eventually finding they'll just give in and that is what the moderates expressly are proposing. Give them everything or we will yield to the fascists, you get nothing forever.
I'm voting against it but people need to accept the reality liberals are fascist enablers at heart and without a shift in their ideology progressives don't have the power to save this country.
There are things that we can do. For instance Expand the supreme court and start to undo the rulings of the current evangelical tyrants. If they can undo precedent so can we
Agreed, I think the "Pandora's box" argument is stale. The GOP is distributing Pandora's boxes left and right and opening them without a second thought. Dems need to wake up and smell the coffee.
But there's the more general principle that any form of government can be corrupted when the ones doing the governing act in bad faith. In the long run, procedures and institutions can't protect you from that.
Apart from simply opposing them, there needs to be a strategy for actually defeating them. I think the most obvious thing that needs to be done is to drive an ever bigger wedge between the Cheney conservatives and the MAGAts. Whenever an opportunity arises to do so it should be done.
Also, I think there should be an all out offensive to get (back) as many young voters as possible. Not just to get them to vote but as a long term strategy. If the MAGA idiots can't be brought to their senses, at least they should die out. Every idol, influencer or sports hero that can make a difference should do so.
But most of all people should start thinking out of the box. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.
If they can undo precedent so can we
Exactly.
Also keep in mind that, the argument that "if we do it so will they" doesn't matter, 1. because like...it's already a worst case scenario for us, if we do it, the court is sane till they take power again, that's still better than it being bad 100% of the time and 2. them doing it too still dilutes the power of the crazies by making it harder to tailor cases to specific judges (and likewise makes bribing them ala Thomas and Alito less effective). A larger court benefits us regardless.
Yup. The GOP likes to hold Dems to norms they themselves would break in a heartbeat. Dems should stop playing their game.
My worry is once you open that Pandora's Box, both sides will keep 'stuffing' the court every time they are in charge and it will quickly spin out of control.
Who cares at this point. If they are in power again one more time none of those worries will matter. There won't be a democratic process to argue about.
Look into the history of the Supreme Court, Pandora's box has been open for a long time. Democrats just haven't taken advantage.
Not via stuffing it, the number has been consistent since 1869 (and before that never exceeded ten). Once you open the idea any Congress can just add justices on a whim, both sides will stuff to their heart's content every time they have the majority needed.
I guess if you don't consider McConnell's obstruction of Garland and subsequent rushing of Coney-Barett as foul play, fine, but I think there's plenty of reason to pack the court right now. We have 3 justices who've now basically admitted to lying before Congress through their actions on the bench, by overturning laws they said they considered settled law.
These fascists will do it anyway, whether there is precedence or not. They will take away everything you have. This is a fight to the death, not a polite political discussion.
Let's make sure people like this are never in power again.
Fine, let them. The more justices there are, the more diluted the power of each of them. Statistically, the more justices we can get, the more moderate the rulings will be. Let's have a supreme Court justice for every member of Congress as far as I'm concerned
Yeah if we can have 535 congress members why is it so strange to have a few more justices?
No one is going to have confidence in a court that is added to every four years, why not do it to all courts then?
The court system is so backed up, isn't that what we keep hearing?? Yes. ADD JUDGES. Process cases. Stop making people wait for justice
Also, who has any confidence in the court now? It's been bought by a few billionaires. At least if there's several hundred justices they will have to work a little harder to buy a ruling
non-american here: maybe collapsing the supreme court in its current form isnt a bad thing?
Thing is, we must have a Supreme Court because it is mandated by the Constitution, as its purpose is to evaluate laws passed to assure they are up to constitutional muster so collapsing it would be a terrible thing.
im not saying get rid of it, but replace it with a better one. start with how judges are appointed, the current system seems to be easily exploited
I guess the question there is: How to make a better one? Or better yet, how to do so in a non-partisan way? As both parties have it in their interest to rewrite things to favor themselves.
If Biden wants a better Supreme Court, he can stack it with 4 new justices.
With this Senate?
Even if he could, what will stop the GOP from doing it too later just to reverse this and where does it end?
Forget the supermajority. Vote to make it a simple majority. The Republicans did it. Why shouldn’t the Democrats?
The majority is razor thin and based on how these last few years went, Biden is lucky when he manages to get all 51.
Why does it have to end? The larger the supreme Court is, the less power any one justice has. Let's have 600 if that's what it takes to get intellectually reasoned rulings
It's not the point of no return, but it is getting increasingly more difficult to maintain a democracy, and the actions required to return are becoming increasingly harsh. We will soon be at the point where an uprising is the only available action, and I don't believe that our society has the fortitude to go through with it. There is no doubt in my mind that the fascists are banking on people not being willing to take the actions necessary.
As of now we are going back and forth with the fascists, but slowly losing ground.
We passed the point of no return on election night in 2016.
The existential dread I feel today is the same I felt on election 2016. I don’t think it is going to get better.
Me too.
Project 2025 can easily be project 2029, 2033, and so on. Hopefully it will get better before it gets worse but we are all in this experiment together.
All the doom and gloom is about a Trump presidency. TRUMP IS NOT THE FUCKING PRESIDENT. Biden is President and he has 7 months to make MAGA wish they were still living under a rock.
He only has 5 months as November is the deadline. He won't do anything though which is the crux of the issue.
Nope. He is President until the next takes the oath of office. Are you fucking stupid or just a god damned bot?
Must not be very smart yourself because if he loses in November Trump can just reverse anything he does especially since it's basically 100% Republicans get the Senate.
There is nothing he can do in a lame duck presidency that can have any lasting impact and he doesn't have the guts to do anything assertive.
I’m having a ton of issues concentrating on work today. I keep thinking about how during WWII people just went to work like “normal” the whole time and realized our new normal is pretty bleak.
Vote. Get your friends and relatives to vote. Educate yourself on your Secretary of State website about your local voting laws and follow them 100%.
Vote for progressive candidates. No republicans in blue clothing count. Don’t ever trust a republican again. Those days are gone.
Keep participating in the legislative process. Contact mayors, senators, congressional reps, etc about your views.
Don’t give up but don’t wear yourself out either. It’s going to be a long tough slough through this quagmire we have created through apathy.
I do believe we witnessed our country has just passed that threshold and...... I hope it goes back to the way it was before 2015. Before that bastard came down that escalator. And I hope this happens in my lifetime.
If you're scared ( and we all should be), FIGHT!
Look up the eligibility requirements for voting and do whatever you can to get people registered in the next 3 months. 100 million eligible voters did not vote in 2020 and that was the highest turnout ever. We outnumber them if we can help people remove barriers to voting.
We have a small window of time between now and the next election to fix this. I hope the dems don’t squander this chance. Seems like they’re talking a big game today.
We’ll see.
Don't worry they will. The Democrats are experts at squandering opportunity.
I forget who it is that said America is the only country that went from barbarism to decadence without the usual interval of civilization. It HAS been at the stage of decadence for quite some time and is now prime to fall, like all empires eventually do. If you ask me, Rubicon was crossed in 2016 when the country elected a known fraudster, pathological narcissist and sexual predator to the highest office because he was famous on TV.
I can't put my finger on it, but it feels like it started well before that. By 2016 it was obvious, and by that I mean the world abroad could tell but I had a friend in the air force back in 2008 tell me about a time he went to like idk Tennessee or something and he met this racist person tell him something to this day that I've never forgotten but now it's so obvious, at the time it made no sense. He had told him this;
"The South is alive, and well"
It was well before 2016.
I agree.
As an attorney barred in the USA, yeah: presidents enjoy absolute immunity in their official acts.
All government agents enjoy some form of immunity in their official acts. Most judges, prosecutors, and legislators enjoy absolute immunity in their official acts.
…but all offices are limited in what their “official acts” are. The Comptroller of Ward 9 enjoys no immunity from any act they do outside of being a comptroller. And they enjoy no immunity as a private citizen doing private citizen shit. They also enjoy no immunity as a candidate; but similarly have no government duties as a candidate. To make an example:
Comptroller 9 is immune from civil suit where - pursuant to their duties as an accountant - they cancel a contract that leaves a business unhappy. If the business sues, their only remedy is breach of contract; which of course our by-the-book comptroller would never suggest.
Candidate for Comptroller 9 does not have to divulge records to the public about their candidacy. As a candidate, Candidate for Comptroller 9 is not beholden to FOIA laws.
As a citizen, Comptroller 9 cannot, say, incite a riot outside of the courthouse where their opponent is being sworn in as the new Comptroller. That is well outside their ministerial and discretionary authority of office, and is not an official act of a Comptroller.
This is the issue at hand. Trump and his cronies are so blinded by bullshit like the Unitary Executive Theory that they forget that the POTUS has a very defined set of authority. And interfering with an election (as a candidate) is not one of them. The idea that fielding a slate of fake electors is a part of the presidency is high lunacy - that authority is directly enshrined in the constitution as being with the states. Trump wasn’t king of the states; he was President of the United States of America. The states have their own authority to do shit. POTUS doesn’t have any part of that, meaning it isn’t an official act.
…meaning he doesn’t have absolute immunity. And - despite what SCOTUS has put here - all the lower courts already considered this. This was a right wing lifeline to make sure Trump isn’t in Pound-Me-in-the-Ass-federal-prison for the election.
Yep. After the Supreme Court ruling and the debate, I lost the last drops of hope I had.
I am in crisis mode from now on. Literally doom prepping now.
Don't despair. Mobilise.
I'm in the UK and although there's a high chance we'll elect a centre-left government on Thursday, I still think this fight has become generational and worldwide.
My advice to anyone living over there:
Be armed, and have supplies in case you need to grab and go, water and any medicine you need especially.
If the proverbial shit hits the proverbial fan, it doesn't hurt to be prepared.
Congress needs to cut the bull and fix this nonsense.
Too many of them are part of it. And the alt right maga ones are doing all they can to thwart democracy.
Part of the problem. The Dems also allowed them to gerrymander voting districts so the GOP will always enjoy a majority in state legislatures. Where courts ruled against them, they found ways to delay or ignore the rulings.
We have. There is only one way back from this and it is resting in the hands of an 80 year old dude who wants to preserve the integrity of the office.
It did, the United States of America just ended with the bang of a gavel.
Gilead here we come…Hail Satan
I agree we passed a tipping point. The political war has gone hot. The country will change from this no matter the winners.
I don't see the outcome forced as of yet. Dems are massively outperforming both the polls and historical trends. There is no favorite until November, and no winner until January.
Yes. It occurred when religion became something that was a personal belief and a political belief.
Thats’s when religious tolerance went out the window and we are where we are now.
Yep. The U.S. as far as I’m concerned is officially dead. I guess it has already has been for a little while but now there can be no doubt. The 250 year project of democracy has ended in failure and we are living in the husk of a failed state.
I don’t think we can look at it that way. we have to keep fighting! I’m pissed my parents immigrated here after World War II. I now know they would have had a better life had they stayed but since they gave everything up, I’ll be damned if this is gonna happen here.
We passed that point a while ago, the fascists just cashed in on their investments they’ve been working on since Reagan. What ya gonna do about it, vote for a candidate you don’t like? Too much effort, easier to just wait for total collapse of a functional government.
What is the nation you are imagining? I guarantee whatever you think is about to happen has already happened to some group of Americans. Go to them and learn how they survived. Times will be dark, but most of this countries history has been extremely dark times for someone.
We’re in a countdown to fascism.
The election must be such a clean sweep that we can right the ship of democracy.
No more minority rule.
This is the answer. Anything other than a decisive win in November will have major consequences
My girl, who has never wanted a gun around the house, told me to skip the extra car payment this month and start looking at handguns for both of us. Shits getting real.
I must agree I've studied history and never has a Supreme Court shown such distain for president and the constitution before and passing rulings to protect themselves from bribery and collusion charges and no oversight. Then the blatant disregard for women's rights . Why is it only the left keeps playing by the rules?
The fact that almost 50% of voters think this moron, winner, draft dodger never actually had to work a day in his life cheater is worthy of anything but distain is beyond me.
As for democrats grow a backbone stop letting these anti democratic morons destroy our process they deny Obama a Supreme Court pick they deny Trump. GOP fillerbuster dems do shut down government because of pet causes let everyone know why. Call out any GOP member who voted against funding but then takes credit . It's time to step up and tell it like it is . GOP and Christians hate freedom and women's rights only care about tyranny
I am not from the divided states. Someone needs to start educating your citizens of how important this is. Educate them on having the majority of the house and the senate is crucial. Even if they don't like Biden....he will have a team of competent people with him if everyone votes blue down their ticket.
At this point, the fascist coup can't be stopped. America will be a dictatorship under the Trump family.
Yeah, kinda
Like, we can definitely fix this, but...I don't think we will. I think the powers that be so fear taking the kind of action they need to, that they'll just ride it out and hope for the best in november, hope that'll fix it, when it only delays the underlying issue.
Biden HAS TO do something about the court, whether that means directing his government to ignore them entirely, trying to impeach members, nominating a dozen new members to dilute the crazy, or trying to disband it entirely with his newfound kingly powers. But allowing a court acting in bad faith to dismantle all our civil rights and protections because of a bad dice roll is not acceptable, nor is waiting a few decades for retirements to allow us to replace them.
But...I don't think he will, that's a scary rubicon to cross, and I don't think the people leading the democrat party have it in them to try. So instead we'll...just slowly drift down this river towards a right wing theocracy. Winning big in november will help slow it, but it won't stop it, and I fear where we'll be at in 2028, even if we do beat Trump in november, but especially if we don't.
If Trump loses they will reverse everything in a blind panic and it will take another 50 years to recover for another try. Or trump wins and this wonderful experiment dies to an orange toddler who just really really wanted to be the best golfer ever.
I'm in my 7th decade now. My first memory of American politics was Watergate. Gloom and doom always gets tempered by time removed from the events.
This will not bring down the republic.
Watergate was child’s play compared to where we are now. In fact, it would have been legally permitted if this ruling had been in effect when it happened.
Based on today’s decision, Nixon’s direction for the CIA to stop the DNC break-in investigation would have been an official act, Dean testimony + Oval Office tapes would have been inadmissible. "Testimony or private records of the President or his advisers probing such conduct may not be admitted as evidence at trial."
I agree. Too many lines have been crossed. The conservative SC wing are way over the line. Thomas should be gone.
The Supreme Court changed nothing. Presidential immunity has always been assumed to exist. Especially for official acts. They just cemented it into law. This is basically like assuming you flush all turds down a toilet, but at what point is a flush mandatory. They’ve never decided how large an orange turd has to be to be flushed. The Supreme Court just ruled that; “Yes. You should flush all turds. Now we are leaving up to the lower court to decide if this turd is big enough to flush.”
They sent the case back to the lower court to decide if what trump did was part of his official duties. They did not say a president can do anything.
The court has to decide two things, if calling for a rebellion is part of a presidents official duties. And if he did indeed call for a rebellion.
Number one is in my opinion obviously not covered by immunity. And number two is up to the courts to decide. Either way, he should never be president again, though neither should Biden at this point.
The Supreme Court just said that they alone decide if a president’s actions are official. It’s not that they created a dictatorship. They installed a clerical Supreme Court that is the puppeteer of the presidency. This is now about the court, not Trump. We have to have someone who will fight against the court.
No. They did not. They literally sent it back to the lower court to make that decision. All the decision says is the president has immunity for actions done in his official capacity. They did not clear him, that’s up to the lower court as it should be.
Edit: For the idiots that didn’t read the damn thing:
“Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the opinion for the majority. He divided presidential conduct into three categories: official acts that are part of presidents' "core constitutional powers"; other official acts that are outside their "exclusive authority"; and unofficial acts. Presidents have "absolute" immunity for the first category, "presumptive" immunity for the second and no immunity for the third.
"The president enjoys no immunity for his unofficial acts, and not everything the president does is official. The president is not above the law,"”
Roberts did not clearly laid out what’s official and what isn’t. They kicked it back to the lower court, the lower court took time to “sort” out what is “official” and what isn’t. Then Trump challenge the “unofficial” acts, then the SC rule that those unofficial acts were indeed official acts.
It’s all about buying time, kicking the can around until either Trump win the WH, ends the investigation or Biden stays in the WH, the SC ends the investigation.
When these things happen we can complain.
Right now the case is back in the lower courts hands. They get to decide what is and isn’t official. And whichever side loses will try to take it to the Supreme Court again.
At which point the SC will either choose to hear the new complaint, or choose to let the verdict stand.
What would you prefer? Someone just decides what’s legal or not, and then that’s just it? That sounds like what trump wants, so I assume you don’t want him to be the arbiter of what’s official.
The SC decision clearly stated there are acts that are not official, and not covered by immunity. THAT is what they were asked to rule on. Not what those acts are. I almost can’t believe it took over 200 years to get to this point. But most of our leaders haven’t been as morally bankrupt as Trump.
Now the case goes back to the lower courts and they sort it out. That’s how it happens. That’s how it should happen.
Now the prosecution gets to explain why insurrection is not an official act, which should be easy. And I’m sure the court would agree.
Then they have to conclusively articulate that what trump did was an attempt to cause an insurrection. Beyond a reasonable doubt.
And that’s the sticky wicket. He made statements that can be read both ways. And he’s enough of an idiot that I can see him making the statement he did and not realizing exactly what would happen. Or what it could sound like to his supporters.
Well duh. The SC has the final says. Why didn’t it just laid it out what is what what isn’t. Why wait until the lower court (someone as you said) decide, just so the losing side get to appeal and waste more time?
Because that’s not how the SC is set up to operate.
They are supposed to rule based on the article of law brought before them. And be as concise as possible.
Pistol brace rule: They didn’t say it was constitutional or not. They ruled that the ATF violated the law when they promulgated the rule. Would either side like a real up or down? Yeah. But that’s not how they act.
Row vs Wade. They didn’t strike down abortion or legalize it. They reversed precedent, even though they promised they wouldn’t. Would either side like a real yes or no on abortion? Certainly. That’s not how the court works.
They rule based as narrowly as possible.
At least that’s how it is supposed to be.
They may not pick up the appeal, if they think the ruling was just, they won’t reverse it or agree to even hear it.
The real problem is there are no other rulings on this. Generally the SC doesn’t get involved until there are multiple rulings from different district courts. Obviously this is more serious so they jumped in, and may do so again. However they may wait until another judge ruled a different way to hear the next case and settle the law.
I don’t think they will. As this is so important. But they have their way of doing business. You sound like my wife. And I understand. And it would be nice to “get on with it”, but this is how they set it up.
Supposedly. But they haven’t. They haven’t been ruled based on the rule of laws for a good while now.
They are just kicking this down to the lower court and hope that the lower court would find a way to not let those further or drag this out. They are Trump puppets.
So please tell me, what rule of law did the Supreme Court violate or ignore in this ruling? They were specifically asked if the president had total immunity and they ruled that he did not.
Yes, I agree that this Supreme Court has made bad rulings. But I don’t believe this is one at this point.
Do you understand how the Supreme Court is supposed to rule on things, or much like your penchant for down voting opinions and facts you don’t like, do you want them to rule based on emotion?
Edit: Here’s the reply he made before deleting it and also not forgetting to downvote:
“If you can’t see that the Trumpers are kicking this down to the lower court just to drag this out, then there’s nothing else I can say. Everyone knows what this is going to be months from now, and it will go back to the SC again.”
And here is my reply:
And again: please point to the law or procedure the SC. ignored with their ruling. They were asked if he had total immunity, and ruled he does not. That’s all they were asked to do.
Both sides have intentionally prolonged this. They had the material to charge diphead several months before they did. They attempted to time the trial thinking the “party of law and order” would actually stick to that.
But that doesn’t matter here, it’s a red herring. You claimed the SC intentionally did something wrong. What was it,
If you can’t see that the Trumpers are kicking this down to the lower court just to drag this out, then there’s nothing else I can say.
Everyone knows what this is going to be months from now, and it will go back to the SC again.
That’s how I concluded yesterday’s ruling. That presidential immunity is a thing, always has been
Yes. That ship has sailed, and is in the rearview mirror.
No one can predict the future, so dont be miserable trying.
We need to be realistic about what lies ahead if Trump gets re-elected. Project 2025 will end our freedom as we know it. .
Or we fight
There are no points of no return.
Does anybody know of any safe places to go speak in case Reddit gets censored or something like that? Just curious
My family of daughters and grand daughters are quaking inside.
I have to admit I did and there was a sense of hopelessness about it
Yes, the country is knew is no longer. The Roberts Court has destroyed America. It’s fucking sickening. I’ve had massive anxiety since yesterday’s immunity ruling.
I refuse to believe that.
Now that Biden has presidential immunity he should throw Trump in Guantanamo Bay or some other over the top act but of course he won't. The Republicans play the game by just changing the rules and the Democrats are always caught flat-footed. Crazy nut jobs on one side and weak ass tea on the other.
Fight like hell - even an atheist understands that.
I'm literally debating whether or not I should start going back to church now or wait until November. It will have to be a conservative church, Southern Baptist or adjacent. Churches that fly the rainbow flag will be the first to be raided and shut down by the government, and their congregants arrested.
I'm giving up cannabis because I don't want to be forced to after Trump takes power and it's decreed illegal in all 50 states again.
I'm trying to accept that I'm going to be single for the foreseeable future, possibly for life. Hopefully whatever society arises from the ashes of Trump's dictatorship is more tolerant of differences than this one is. I'm not counting on it though.
Chill out with consuming the news . The more you watch and read the far worse you'll precive the negatives . https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200512-how-the-news-changes-the-way-we-think-and-behave
We cannot let America to die or the West. It is what our enemies want. We need to go back to being a force of good. We must not collapse but unite. Don't give in.
If we have passed that point it was back when the Republicans held up a supreme court justice under Obama. So technically we passed that point when Republicans took the Senate when Obama was president. People are noticing now is all.
It was always this way. We just couldn’t see it.
Im incapable of holding that mentality.
As the great uncle Iroh said: “You must never give into dispair. Allow yourself to slip down that road, and you surrender to your lowest instincts. In the darkest times, hope is something you give yourself. That is the meaning of inner strength”.
For those saying it started in 2016…It didn’t start in 2016…it started with Reagan and went into overdrive when Obama got elected in 2008. This has been building for 50 years. All those decades of people taking our democracy for granted, not paying attention and not bothering to vote paved the way for Republicans to seize control. Our only hope is to get majority congress and Biden re-elected to counter act
I figure my future could involve being burned at the stake or hanged as a witch, because I’m a very outspoken atheist in the Deep South. Don’t care though. The fuckers are gonna know exactly what I think of ‘em.
I'm so glad I'm not from the US. I'm so sad the US is so important in the world.
Here's a way forward:
- We vote Dem en-masse (up & down the ticket) and handily, and decidedly win in November. Both Houses & the Presidency.
- With a clear enough majority, we skip/change/end filibuster rules.
- Change the judiciary to ~13 SCOTUS judges and appoint jusges to change the balance in favor of sanity.
- While reformed SCOTUS fixes their errors (who's to stop them?), we add DC and Puerto Rico (and possibly Virgin Islands & Guam) as states - all of which are leaning Dem.
- Finalize ERA, pass more thorough voting rights, pass women's bodily autonomy, expand healthcare, reform immigration, improve regulation of guns...
- Appoint expanded judicial positions.
- Encourage states to agree to compact bypassing electoral college problems.
- Have president sign massive executive orders rolling back remaining trump-era damage
- Provide enough assistance to those in need of a better safety net that they are emboldened to vote next time, etc
- Revisit campaign finance/PACs, lobbies, corporate freedom of speech
- Solidify treason & domestic terrorism laws.
- Continue on to other longer term issues (amendments, climate change long range eco-security force).
- Work on strategy to improve dem turnout in Red as well as Purple states, with 365 no state left out strategy.
- Prepare for another backlash fight in 2028...
I completely agree. Yesterday felt like the earth moved under our democracy and the path to a white Christian nationalist state is clear. Doddering Biden and the toothless democrats don’t have the balls to fight for democracy and have forgotten their are no rules in a street fight.
Biden could use his imperial power to pack the Cort, set trial/sentencing dates for Trump facing a judge of his choosing, pass a raft of legislation feeding goodies to the public and drop out of the race all at the same time.
It’s clear lawyers can’t solve this
We are experiencing the same horrors that women have been going through when Roe vs Wade was overturned.
Unnecessary deaths. America is on a bloodlust.
I feel like that. Anyone know of the Resistance and whether it’s recruiting?
No - I felt that way in 2016.
Yes
The threshold was crossed in 1492
It’s been dead for a while, but it took this for it to sink in for you. Start mourning I suppose.
Biden needs to go full Dark Brandon: step up and take advantage of this opportunity. To defend the constitution he should fire the illegitimate justices Barrett and kavanaugh, replacing them with young progressives. For extra credit fire Alito and Thomas for taking bribes. Step 2 force the justice department to crack down on the MAGA politicos and the Federalist Society as terrorists/treasonists. Tap their phones, find their weaknesses, publicize their corruption, etc. Now a POTUS can commit crimes as long as they can be construed as part of the job.
When they go low, we go dark.
As soon as drumpf was elected I knew we were fucked.
You're worried about the Christians, but what you should really worry about is Islam.
What are talking about
Well think smart it protects your savor Biden
Do you know what you’re even trying to say or does your troll farm only teach English phonetically?
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