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Is the MLS Specifically Targeting Expansion to USL Cities?
Soccer WarzThis is definitely the answer.
I think it’s less about “let’s kill USL!” And more “Oh shit, look at Indy getting 10k fans for a USL team… They can definitely sustain an MLS one then.”
MLS wants to control all of US Soccer. This is why they've created Next Pro. They want to take lower division from USL and then turn all the lower division teams into the G League.
I mean, there are indie clubs in MLSNP (Chattanooga) with more on the way. So it’s not really the G League. They’re just trying to recreate the USL of the past decade if we’re all being honest.
I don’t think MLS cares if USL lives or dies, they just want to build out a D2/D3 league of their own. Monopolies are bad imo, including USL having one over D3.
Maybe they don't want to take it. Maybe they want to devalue lower leagues by flooding the division with a bunch of empty stadiums.
I don't think MLS is even thinking about USL much.
MLS rn
how can you complain about MLS trying to control all of soccer when USL is basically controlling 3 men’s divisions and 2 women’s
100% agree. MLS will not stop until it controls and profits from all us soccer clubs. US Soccer is weak and happy to go along with the flawed system MLS wants to set up.
It’s just a reserves league with a few independent teams. It’s not going to overtake the USL
Charleston would embarrass them MLS teams anyway 😤😤
Look out Rowdies
Garber has said they aren’t expanding anymore than San Diego. But he could change his mind.
No he hasn’t. He said they haven’t discussed it yet (a while back).
As long as a large enough market has someone willing to pay the expansion fee and provide a suitable venue, expansion is on the table.
I don't think talent dilution is as much of a problem with sheer number of soccer players in the world. The MLS gains fans with teams in markets. Soccer fans in non-MLS markets are following teams outside of the US.
Correction according to the Star he told ESPN in 2023 that at that time there was no plan for more expansion. “When the league added San Diego as its 30th team in May 2023, Garber told ESPN there were no immediate plans for growth.” https://www.indystar.com/story/sports/2024/04/25/indianapolis-wants-an-mls-team-heres-how-the-expansion-process-works/73459697007/
Doesn't help when a good chunk of the owners within USL have MLS in mind. Hopefully now they realise that MLS doesn't owe them entry or respect because they were the existing team. I love this league but the narrative that is painted can be false at times. Take the loyal for instance. The owner fails to get a deal as the MLS team and gets all emotional on social media. Just a couple of days ago, the Indy eleven owner was basically begging to join MLS on live television. Heck, the sacramento owner has been trying since forever. So yes whilst MLS is sparking an interest for markets with existing teams, the owners of those existing teams are practically inviting MLS unless it doesn't favour them.
Most USL owners can not afford to be majority MLS owners. It takes 1 billion dollars in cash now to get all the pieces up and running. They can afford to be minority owners and that is likely all the Indy owner will be if he moves up. Lets be real, that guy is trying to hold onto to his property development and if he was offered a minority MLS stake and the majority of the property deal, he would take it in a heart beat.
USL - MLS are not at war this is a money game. If it takes a BILLION bucks to go MLS a lot of things need to fall in line and Indy might have the dominos because of that vote. So of course MLS is going to say hey.... you guys are flirting with the line.. why not just get some more money and come over.
There are plenty of cities or minority level owners that want MLS but there are not plenty of people lining up with a billion dollars. You either get a very very very rich person or your taxpayers spash that cash in the case of Indy.
I wouldn't necessarily say that it isn't a war. Nextpro exists for a reason. But MLS isn't losing sleep over USL. Either way, usl has plenty of markets such as a forward madison and an Omaha that they can grow freely.
I just mean MLS isn't attacking USL's best markets to stop USL. They go after a market if it can actually front the cash required and if it makes sense for their growth plan.
If you find a major city willing to front money and build a 20k seat stadium.. the billion dollar bar just got much easier for someone to buy a MLS team than starting from scratch elsewhere.
Every USL market except Sacramento lmao
They tried but couldn't find a whale to save it. I'm surprised the Kings owner didn't want in.
but didn’t Sacramento want to be a part of MLS, but their funds were low???
The MLS investor backed out
I know very little about this issue, but I don't think this would kill USL Championship league. It makes sense that big pro sports cities that have shown they can support a pro soccer team would have an MLS team as soccer grows in the US.
I've always thought of the MLS as needing to be in the bigger pro sports towns in the US, and the USL being in the medium size cities around the US. The same way Atlanta (6.3 million) has an NFL team while Birmingham (1.3 million) has a successful UFL football team.
It seems to me the real Soccer Warz is USL vs MLSNP.
The USL Championship is not going compete with the MLS..
How this plays out in Jacksonville will be interesting. along whether an independent MLSNP will find success in Cleveland.
PS: Looking forward to A.J. McCarron's Alabama homecoming when my BattleHawks face the Stallions.
We’re starting to see something like that about an hour away with the NPSL side Hickory FC. But I could definitely see them getting boosted to pro status since they’re the only other team between Boone and Charlotte.
I’m a little offended that Louisville has such strong support, infrastructure, and success but we’re not even worthy of mention of being poached. I mean, good. But also, cmon. We’re cool too, man.
Keep in mind the problem isn't spots as much as it is money. Sacramento got a spot and can't get the money and couldn't drum up someone to drop a billion.
I have met and interviewed two Louisville City owners. Your group is perfect for USL but your ownership is actually quite diluted among many parties. None of which are willing to front much more than they already have.
You have the cheapest route though. Training facility is already built, Stadium would need another 100m+ in size and upgrades to match the other new kids. Expansion fee, Stadium, Upgraded roster, doubling the overall club and coaching employees.. I bet you all could do it for 600m or so. Still would require a nice cash payment and a new primary owner which is the real stopping point for most markets.
Now if Louisville had the 600m on a table in front of Garber and no-one else like Indy did.. they might be tempted to take it.
The era of easy expansion is over. It is all going to be who can actually get the cash together now. After that the only way in will be to buy something someone is selling like the MLB, NFL work.
One second, lemme check my couch cushions for change.
Yeah money will always be the reason Louisville won’t have a top flight team. Sorry, Racing. We tried to attract the NBA but fumbled it. No big billionaires want to front the cash in our mid-level city. Ah well. Just wish they’d advertise LouCity and Racing a bit better so we could come close to selling out Lynn Family on occasion.
Also pretty cool about the interviews. Do you have notes/records anywhere of that?
Deep in some Cincinnati podcast archives from back when we were in USL. I'll see what I can drum up
I agree. Louisville should be a not notch choice in terms of stadiums and support but I think the market isn't big enough and the owners may not be rich enough.
There’s markets smaller than us with major league teams. It’s likely just lack of wealthy owners. Doesn’t help every city around us has major teams so any time we’re brought up so is concern over a saturated market. Oh well.
I would think the existence of the University of Louisville sports programs is factor too.
Hard to know if they are popular because we don’t have pro teams or we don’t have pro teams because they’re popular. But football owning the Papa John stadium and basketball getting first dibs on scheduling at the Yum Center (after our nba dreams died) does not do us favors with attracting a major league team. lol
Don’t get me wrong though, I’m a Cardinal til I die.
I really like the way that you threw that out there.
Y’all are cool and have something special going on there.
Mad props!
I mean they've been doing this since the Sounders joined. Almost 1/3 of MLS teams are directly organizations that played under the same name in USL or NASL. Then you've got a partial replacement in St. Louis (one USL owner is part of the new team), and totally new teams that entered into existing lower division markets in Miami/Fort Lauderdale, NYC, San Diego, Atlanta, and Austin, killing off or substantially weakening the market position of the existing teams.
Now with MLSNP and a possible MLS D2 league in the pipeline, it won't be long before they take the market development bit in-house. I'd bet nobody from outside the MLS ecosystem is getting in again, unless they move into one of those leagues first.
Ehh, in some cases if MLS can take or leave your market they have requested you play out in the lower leagues first. Idk if Nashville was told to start in USL but I know Cincinnati was. Kind of a prove it first model but Cincinnati isn't a top 30 media market. But the primary owner was MLS ready from day 1 in terms of wealth. MLS is of course going to actively be looking at any opportunities that arise in a Top 25 market. Saying MLS is coming for Detroit because USL is there is funny. MLS has been coming for Detroit since way before DCFC moved into USL.
I don't hold any grudges to MLS for taking teams up until maybe, Cincinnati.
After FCC left for MLS, I started to get annoyed because those fans made USL look like the next big thing with their insane attendance numbers.
Seattle, Portland and Vancouver were Old USL and USL was D3 when Orlando bolted, and it was way before I started paying attention, so those don't bother me.
The San Diego announcement was when I really lost my shit and threw Garber's face on my dartboard.
Go back and find FCC stuff from 2016 they were "in talks" from day 1. They just couldn't buy their way in from scratch like a Charlotte. So I wouldn't worry about it because they were talking about their MLS goal more than most.
FCC overspent in USL and it worked because the fans rewarded it with plenty of funding but somewhere you can find a quote about how they were going to need to scale something down in the event the MLS bid failed. We certainly wouldn't have got our pretty new stadium. Maybe a lesser version in the burbs.
Again, DReese lived it, firsthand.
So I usually let whatever he’s serving marinate. Food for thought…
Even if I decide to not eat the entire meal, I got nothing but massive respect for the chef.
Question in good faith:
Is USL targeting expansion in NISA cities? And NPSL/UPSL, etc?
If so, have they continued to do so on the women’s side with DC?
As a long time USL follower, it seems very similar to me.
The best market research is done by the success and failure of businesses in the same market as you.
It just makes sense to go where there's a proven market.
Yeah, it’s obvious. San Diego’s and Indianapolis developments leave no doubt as to the reality of that.
Plus their next targets are Detroit, Tampa, Phoenix, and Vegas. Like come on, what have they gotta do to convince people, change the logo to a cartoon oil derrick taking a shit on the Charleston Battery badge?
I believe that MLS has plans to own their own lower divisions in the future, with the aim of creating a strong Second Division and possibly even a third. This could potentially involve buying out USL or convincing stronger USL teams to switch to MLS for a reduced franchise fee, despite the existence of a clause in the current USL agreement.
While USL has the potential to rival MLS, they would need significant financial backing and a full commitment to being a lower division league. Attempting to become a D1 league, in my opinion, would be a risky endeavor, though stranger things have happened.
If MLS does indeed overhaul their roster rules as promised in the upcoming winter, the gap between the two leagues will only widen further. Additionally, MLS could also choose to withdraw from the US Open Cup, which would have a detrimental effect on other lower division leagues.
I say all of this as an MLS fan, with USL being the only lower division I follow.
Why would their withdrawal hurt lower leagues?
MLS is going to go where there is a strong fanbase.
And if there is a USL owner there that can't afford to pony up the expansion fee, then MLS will just find a rich foreigner who can and give HIM the team.
I wouldn't put it past them to do this to their own Next Pro teams either.
They don't care about soccer. They care about money.
I know I'll get heat for this,but I just wish the MLS just stay in their own league and just exsist in their own bubble. If fans would like their offering of the game,fine. They can do what other sports leagues do and play amongst themselves and not worry about any other league. They have the money to do so, and they got the big names (albeit past their prime) to garner the world's stage.
For other leagues like USL, I hope the growth continues, the new markets continue, and the opportunities for the different divisions can offer opportunities for younger players (men and women) to grow. I'm very hopeful for the USL Super League to develop and be successful too!
Hey BigEd,
Please stop being a heat magnet. Leave some for the rest of us.
You don’t want some of the smoke that’s been coming my way lately. Lol.
In all seriousness, agree with you.
Like your pro wrestling analogy: Sustainable alternatives outside of WWE offer more options for performers, other workers and fans.
I dig that.
MLS is a Ponzi scheme.
You don’t know what a Ponzi scheme actually is
Except for NISA, I cannot think of any US “pro” soccer league that doesn’t use a model different to MLS.
Including USL.
It’s a pretty popular model.
The vast majority of MLS size markets that don’t already have teams are in USL. MLS is more likely to look at the cities that already have a decent number of soccer fans.
What major metro areas have no soccer at all?
As a minority owner of ocsc I hope we make it to mls too
Pretty much. They want to know the city will actually support a team
I know there is a lot stopping it but I’d like to see them come together like the European countries and have promotion and relegation.
Yes, maybe Indy, Detroit, Sacramento and Oakland
Don't you put that evil on me
The ultimate goal of MLS is to rebrand all teams to
FC City or United
Post
not trying to be a downer, but soccer in america is not a public trust, USL MSL etc are all private entities. Free market capitalism at its finest.
There is an obvious overlap of cities that each league would and should target. The cities listed early in that article among them.
I think MLS making reactionary moves due to the actions of USL seems like it would persist only in the imaginations of us usl fans. Is it to stop a usl franchise from getting 8k fans a game in a market or is it a $500,000,000 expansion fee split amongst the owners?
Not impossible. Unlikely. But not zero.
I’m pumped that Indy is making a run at a team.
Yes
No more MLS expansion. There are already too many teams.
There needs to be a USL vs MLS cup if this is the case where first teams have to compete against one another.
Like the Marvel vs DC comics
Well, there's the US Open Cup ...
But MLS doesn’t play their first teams
well, also there's a reason why the second biggest soccer league in the States has the largest non-MLS cities represented. They definitely are using USL support as a barometer for expansion and manifest destiny-ing the soccer landscape, but they aren't randomly plucking cities like El Paso and Charleston that don't fit the usual mold of a major league city.