If you can lose your salvation, doesn't that make God's love conditional?

Question on my mind.

Edit: I ask because if humans don't love unconditionally, and not even God does, why do I have the desire to be loved so? If it doesn't exist anywhere, what's the point? Why do I live? I guess I'm just working through some difficult and discouraging feelings. if I'm responsible for keeping my faith intact like everyone is saying, I don't see a point in living because I know I will fail. "Do this." "If I fail?" "You suffer torment for eternity." Lord forgive me but this does not seem like an easy burden. I would much rather have never been born.

in TrueChristianby FooreSnoopReformed Baptist

77%

30d

29d

Truth-or-Death1988

Jesus Is Lord

30d

“As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love. - John 15:9-10

EnKristenSnubbe

Christian

29d

"So Jesus again said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. ⁸ All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them. ⁹ I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. ¹⁰ The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly. ¹¹ I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep. ¹² He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them. ¹³ He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep. ¹⁴ I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, ¹⁵ just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. ¹⁶ And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. ¹⁷ For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. ¹⁸ No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”

-John 10:7-18

^" Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, ²⁶ but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. ²⁷ My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me,^\)^a^\) is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”"

- John 10:25-30

fakeraeliteslayer

Roman Catholic

29d

👉🏻IF👈🏻 you keep my commands, you will remain in my love,

Key word there is IF...many osas believers bypass the word IF.

Buick6NY

30d

You don't lose your salvation by making a mistake or by accident. You lose your salvation by turning from God and never coming back.

Affectionate_Mix4587

30d

“And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” John 10:28

Jesus promises us that we will never perish once we believe on him and are gifted with eternal life.

Saturn_dreams

30d

But if you decide not to believe in him any more God is a God of consent he won’t force himself on you

Affectionate_Mix4587

30d

I agree he does not force you to believe, but being born again is not something you can undo.

AsianMoocowFromSpace

29d

Mark 4 says otherwise.

‭Mark 4:16-17 NIV‬ [16] Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. [17] But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

Affectionate_Mix4587

29d

That verse does describe a believer however the parable talks about believers who bear fruit and those who do not. Bearing fruit represents leading lost souls to Christ by sowing. They face persecution for the word and do not sow or proclaim the word because of it, bearing no fruit.

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

The rocky soil and the thorny soil are never saved. They accepted the gospel joyfully, but never really believed. Their belief was an intellectual belief; they never placed their trust in Jesus Christ.

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
1 John 2:19

FistoRoboto15

Baptist

29d

This! We can rarely ever say with utmost certainty if someone is in a period of disobedience, but typically if someone completely walks away from their faith, as I have recently witnessed, you begin to put the pieces together and realize they were never born again. They just blended in like a chameleon, wanting all the blessings of Christ without worshiping him or revering him as Lord.

Saturn_dreams

30d

So if someone accepts Jesus and later deicides to serve satan literally like witch craft to the max human sacrifice all of that. I’m going to see them in heaven?

Slainlion

Born Again

29d

I would beg to ask were they truly saved to begin with

Saturn_dreams

29d

Only the lord knows that

generic_reddit73

Christian (non-denom)

29d

I'd make it simpler: parable of the sower. All those who accept the message of the gospel are saved. But some only for a short while (Satan snatches away God's words from their hearts). Some could be saved, but their worldly worries start overgrowing their faith. So yes, salvation is conditional on the believers participation.

God bless!

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

Someone who God saves will not later decide to serve Satan. That person is a new creation indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

Saturn_dreams

29d

This is a lovely idea but from the beginning of time till now God has always given us the choice of whether or not to choose sin over him even when we are in relationship with him. You can wake up tomorrow and not follow Christ if it is not your choice it is not salvation.

People fall to temptation that’s a fact.( David and Bathsheba) Denying those people can stay there because God won’t let them, is negating what God tells us through scripture about free will.

In summary if we want to sin we can and we can continue in it those who live in sin are not saved. We aren’t forced to have a relationship with Christ, we can all turn back any day.

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

God certainly has given us the choice. But, as John 6:37, 44 demonstrates, no one will choose Christ unless the Father Gives them to the Son. Unless the Father draws you, you will not choose to come to Christ. And, as both these verses demonstrate, Christ will not lose any of those who the Father gives him.

Yes, people fall into temptation. No one is saying that Christians don't sin. What did David do when he sinned so agreivously? He repented. He did not turn away from God.

If you are going to continue arguing against this, you are going to have to deal with the passages I presented which teach that someone with true saving faith will not lose their faith.

generic_reddit73

Christian (non-denom)

29d

Well said. Also, why would Jesus have advised us to be cautious, and to pray not to be led into temptation and be protected from evil, if all was settled at conversion, and the road ahead cannot possibly have any influence?

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

First, Christians are not immuned from temptation. We are not sinless. That is a far cry from losing our faith.

Second, warnings in Scripture against apostacy are one of the means that God uses to preserve his saints.

Affectionate_Mix4587

30d

We are punished on Earth as well for our sin, God’s wrath would be upon that person. To answer your question though because of God’s mercy their sin would be covered under the blood of Christ and therefore they would still go to Heaven. Christ died for all past present and future sins of a believer.

Time-For-Argy-Bargy

29d

So I can go sin all I want and be good?

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

If you are born again, you won't want to sin. You have been given a new heart and new desires. You are indwelt by the Holy Spirit who produces fruit in you.

Time-For-Argy-Bargy

29d

Why then does Paul say:

”For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.“ ‭‭Romans‬ ‭7‬:‭15‬-‭25‬ ‭ESV‬‬

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

I didn't say we won't sin. I said we don't want to sin. That is Paul's struggle expressed in this passage. Paul doesn't want to sin, he hates his sin, but he still does sin. He has the desire to do what is right but finds that he can't do it. He's exaggerating in that he doesn't sin all the time. It's not that he never does good. But, because he is so aware of his sin, it seems like it to him that he sins all the time.

Continue thread...

Saturn_dreams

29d

Even Paul didn’t believe this…

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

Yes, Paul did believe this. Romans 8:29-30

Continue thread...

Right-Turnover8588

29d

because of God’s mercy their sin would be covered under the blood of Christ and therefore they would still go to Heaven. Christ died for all past present and future sins of a believer.

‭Romans 6:1-2 KJV‬ [1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

‭2 Timothy 2:19 KJV‬ [19] Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Affectionate_Mix4587

29d

We are no longer slaves to sin and should never sin, but sinning doesn’t make us lose salvation. We are punished, chastised, corrected, etc in other ways by the Spirit.

Right-Turnover8588

29d

but sinning doesn’t make us lose salvation.

If you Reject Christ & live in Sin, then it does. God knows those who are his.

Affectionate_Mix4587

29d

Nowhere in the Bible does it say you can lose salvation. Those who believe shall never perish John 10:28. Nowhere in the Bible does it support what you just claimed, which is heresy.

Continue thread...

DoctorVanSolem

Christian

29d

Technically you can. It is the parable of the house on sand.

Build your house well, based in Christ and you will never fall away, but build it poorly and you will fall away once you face trials you cannot overcome since you don't know how or don't think about relying on God.

Affectionate_Mix4587

29d

What makes you think the house represents someone’s salvation? It represents trials in life.

DoctorVanSolem

Christian

29d

The storm represents trials. Whether the house stands or falls is based on how you build it.

Build it on Christ's foundation and it will stand. But if you don't, then when trial comes, how long do you have the faith to be patient with God? or will you lose faith?

I know someone this has happened to. Accepted Christ, started of fine and became my brother in Christ. Decided they had learned enough before even getting a quarter of understanding, fell away when they began to struggle.

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

He doesn't force himself on you, but he removes your heart of stone and replaces it with a heart of flesh. He makes you a new creation. When God does this, you will never decide not to believe in him any more. See John 6:27, 44; 10:27-30; Romans 8:29-30; Phil 1:6

Saturn_dreams

29d

But what about those who fell away from faith in the scripture?

ilikedota5

Christian

29d

And yet, many, many verses warn about falling away.

"If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and are overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them."

2nd Peter 2:20-21

generic_reddit73

Christian (non-denom)

29d

You're thinking too seriously about this. Let's just all ignore any verses that paint another picture, and remain safely and calmly in our glamorous Calvinist bubble, what a grace it is!

taste_the_biscuit_

Follower of Jesus

29d

"give diligence to make your calling and election sure"

2 Peter 1.10

We have to make sure

[deleted]

30d

amen.

krash90

Reformed

29d

John 15:9-10 clearly says otherwise.

Affectionate_Mix4587

29d

Rightly divide the word of God (2 Timothy 2:15)

Before Jesus died on the cross is Old Testament, they were still under the law. Everything changed when he died not when he was born. No one can obey his commandments perfectly, the gospel is that we are wretched sinners and yet Christ was the propitiation for our sin and our belief is counted as righteousness.

Schrod1ngers_Cat

Christian

29d

But what if you stop believing?

Affectionate_Mix4587

29d

You are sealed by the Spirit, no man can pluck you out of your Father’s hand, eternal life lasts forever, gifts from God are not something that can be taken back, that’s not how gifts work, God will never forsake you even though we will forsake him daily when we sin. In that scenario they’d still be saved if they truly were born again however I think you underestimate the spiritual birth. A real believer wouldn’t just stop believing, God dwells inside them unlike unbelievers.

Djh1982

Roman Catholic

29d

Exactly. It’s a deliberate thing.

CodeMonkey1

Christian

30d

I love my kids unconditionally, but they can still refuse my love and go their own way. I can't force them to accept me.

Der_Missionar

Christian

30d

I was gonna say the exact same thing

blahblahsnickers

Baptist

29d

And if kids turned out to be drug addicts and career criminals it won’t mean I would stop loving them but I would stop associating with them.

Willing_Regret_5865

Christian

30d

You can't lose it, but you can reject it.

[deleted]

30d

good thing we cannot.

we did not do anything to earn it, then how can we do anything to lose it? We're saved by His grace, and His grace alone.

Right-Turnover8588

29d

Peace be with you Friend ❤️ Yes, we are saved by grace through faith, not by our works (Ephesians 2:8-9), but our works should display the reality of our salvation (James 2:17-18).

Genuine saving faith will always produce works; a faith that is perpetually without works is no faith at all and saves no one (James 2:26).

[deleted]

29d

absolutely. works are a testament of our faith, fruits of the Spirit.

Falelord

30d

Amen

salt_and_light777

Evangelical

30d

Amen.

mtelesha

29d

Wait explain your way of salvation. People say this and they aren't pre-destination so I am.always asking how someone becomes saved?

FistoRoboto15

Baptist

29d

Amen!

KushGold

30d

Hebrews 3:12 says once saved always saved is garbage theology

Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God.

[deleted]

30d

please read the Bible in it's context. do not spew verses out of context to justify your unbiblical stance.

Once again, the context makes it clear that salvation is not at stake. The Promised Land is not a metaphor for heaven—Israel's rescue from Egypt is the symbol of salvation. God's wrath against the Jewish people in the wilderness was not to send them back to Egypt (symbolizing a return to an un-saved state). Rather, it was to deny them the blessings of the promised inheritance. Parts of chapter 4 will further support the idea that the author is speaking of sin in the life of a saved believer, not the potential loss of salvation.

KushGold

30d

If you need more I'll get you more.

Galatians 5:4 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

James 5:19-20 19 My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth and someone brings him back, 20 let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

2 Peter 2:20-22 20 For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. 21 For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them. 22 What the true proverb says has happened to them: “The dog returns to its own vomit, and the sow, after washing herself, returns to wallow in the mire.”

1 Corinthians 10:12 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 John 1:7 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

[deleted]

30d

yes. but neither of them support your false claim.

KushGold

30d

Explain to me the point of these verses? What was the author trying to convey to the intended audience?

User deleted comment

30d

KushGold

30d

These all say you can lose your salvation.

User deleted comment

30d

KushGold

30d

Then please explain each of these verses to me like I'm a 6 year old.

Continue thread...

KushGold

30d

Hitler was baptized and saved as a youth. Is he still saved?

[deleted]

30d

this discussion isn't about baptism.

KushGold

30d

He professed Jesus as Lord and was baptized as a youth

Continue thread...

Better-Profession-43

29d

So you can’t explain it? Lol

John628_29

30d

You can fall away, but we are still Gods children once saved. It would be like saying if you had a kid and he left you and didn’t call, isn’t he still your kid?

Right-Turnover8588

29d

we are still Gods children once saved

We are God's Children through Yeshua. If we Reject Yeshua, we become the Children of Satan(John 1:12).

KushGold

30d

Galatians 5:4 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

1 Corinthians 10:12 12 Therefore let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall.

1 John 1:7 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin.

If you need more verses to show once saved always saved is garbage I'll give you more

John628_29

29d

Let’s talk about them one at a time. I would be happy to go over all of them with you. Galatians 5:4. Falling away from grace is different from falling away from salvation. Falling away from grace means falling back under the law.

KushGold

29d

Where do you find that in the Bible? That falling away from "grace" means falling "back under the law"? Anyone "under the law" wasn't saved. It was one or the other. The law never saved once. Are you implying that people who fell from grace and were put back under the 613 laws of Moses are in heaven? How? To be under the laws of Moses and not be under grace is to be without Jesus.

I don't think I need you explaining to me any more verses

mtelesha

29d

Why approach scripture with a philosophy question?

Can I pleas challenge you that you are looking at this through Philosophy and Systems of the Bible that are called Systematic Theology. It was started in officially 400 years ago during Pre-destination arguements. The first person to have a systematic approach to the Bible was Origin and he is not a church father and is not Orthodox with his hidden meanings of the Scriptures.

A Biblical Approach is to not look through it as something to be looked through an philosophy. Reformation Theology was a reaction to Catholic errors and not based on reading of scripture. That was why Martin Luther calls James the epistle of straw and desired it to not be cannon. Roman road of salvation says we have a choice. The Old Testament says we have a choice, "Chose this day whom you will serve."

Moderator removed comment

29d

pm_me_judge_reinhold

29d

Removed. Not every doctrine you disagree with his heresy. This is a warning

AquaMan130

Eastern Orthodox

29d

What's up with y'all? You're telling me that something that is completely against what the Bible says is just something I disagree with?

pm_me_judge_reinhold

29d

Something that is completely against what the Bible says is your interpretation. Do you think Reformed Christians don’t read the Bible too and defend their position with scripture? You don’t have to agree with it even like it, but you will be respectful towards those who hold different views within the circle of Christianity.

crippledCMT

Christian

29d

yes, for the hyperreligious. We like to do but it is done, it's finished.

AquaMan130

-2

Eastern Orthodox

29d

What does "hyperreligious" mean? Is that a term which soft "Christians" use to cope with their ignorance, arrogance and sinful behavior?

crippledCMT

Christian

29d

yeah, and thinking it can be covered with works of religion.

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

You can't lose your salvation. Christ saves perfectly.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
John 6:44

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. ²⁸ I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. ²⁹ My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. ³⁰ I and the Father are one.”
John 10:27-30

For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. ³⁰ And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
Romans 8:29-30

And I am sure of this, that he who began a good work in you will bring it to completion at the day of Jesus Christ.
Philippians 1:6

User deleted comment

30d

Sharpest_Edge84

29d

Why do you want unconditional love? Is it not best to be loved on certain basic conditions like you believe in God and truly desire to learn and do his will? That's pretty much the essence of his conditions to bestow his love on you.

FistoRoboto15

Baptist

29d

It’s time for you to walk in Gods grace my friend. John 3:16-17 “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.” ‭‭ Also do not forget Paul’s thorn in the flesh in 2 Corinthians. He pleaded 3 times with the Lord to remove his affliction or temptation. But God said “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” There is a healthy line to be walked between living your life to honor God, but understanding that when you do fail, he doesn’t abandon you.

gagood

Chi Rho

29d

If you could lose your salvation, you would.

arc2k1

Christian Hope Coach

30d

God bless you.

This is a good question.

God's love is unconditional because He will always accept us if we turn to Him and He will never abandon us when we are with Him.

“My dear friends, God loves you, and we know he has chosen you to be his people.” - 1 Thessalonians 1:4

“God doesn't take back the gifts he has given or disown the people he has chosen.” - Romans 11:29

“I am sure that nothing can separate us from God's love—not life or death, not angels or spirits, not the present or the future, and not powers above or powers below. Nothing in all creation can separate us from God's love for us in Christ Jesus our Lord!” - Romans 8:38-39

Jesus said, “I promise you that any of the sinful things you say or do can be forgiven, no matter how terrible those things are.” - Mark 3:28

God won't ever take our salvation away if we stay with Him, but if we walk away from Him, then we will walk away from His salvation.

Jesus said, "Stay joined to me, and I will stay joined to you." - John 15:4

PsalmEightThreeFour

Roman Catholic

30d

No one can snatch me from the Lord's hand, but I can, as sure as hell, jump out of it.

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

30d

That would make you "No One."

Willing_Regret_5865

Christian

30d

Explain Romans 11:18-21

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

30d

Explain how you can feasibly "jump out" when the Holy Spirit pricks at your conscience if you so much as test the bond between you and God. Do you think He just sits idly by as you peer over the edge and contemplate how to jump? The more you try to leave, the harder the Spirit tugs at your conscience.

You can't jump out, buddy. You can quote Bible verses at me all day long, but to suggest that you can "sure as hell" jump out when the Holy Spirit is pricking at your heels smacks of naivete.

Willing_Regret_5865

Christian

30d

Why are OSAS people so aggressive/condescending?
Explain Romans 11:18-21

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

30d

I don't know what there is to explain about Romans 11. It's not clear to me that it's talking about loss of salvation.

My point is that even if you could jump out of his hand, the mechanisms that prevent others from snatching you out also keep you from leaving. Explain to me how you can feasibly leave God without the Spirit nipping at your heels the whole way.

Right-Turnover8588

29d

Explain to me how you can feasibly leave God without the Spirit nipping at your heels the whole way.

Because God doesn't force us to Accept him, the Spirit tries to help us to get back. However, the more we ignore him, the More we Quench he.

John 10:24-30 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. 26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. 30 I and my Father are one.

Who are the Sheep of Yeshua? They are the Sheep that: Believe in Him(John 10:26) Known Him (John 10:14) Hear His voice(John 10:27) Follow Him(John 10:27)

Hence, no one can snatch them away. However, if the Sheep themselves decide that they don't want to stay, then they are Not held in Yeshua's Hand.

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

29d

We're not talking about the acceptance. We're talking about retention following acceptance.

Right-Turnover8588

29d

Yes. No one can snatch us out of God's Hence. However, if we willingly live in sin, or reject Christ, then we are Not held in his hands anymore

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

29d

Those whom God holds onto do not willingly live in sin. That's part of the mechanism for how he holds onto you.

Continue thread...

Willing_Regret_5865

Christian

30d

Why are OSAS people so aggressive/condescending?

Your answer: still waiting. Please go ahead.

2. Explain Romans 11:18-21

Your answer: "not sure," which is fine.

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

30d

Loaded question. Not dignifying that nonsense.

My point was that you're so mired in biblical theory and head-knowledge that you've missed the forest for the trees and forgotten the practical realities.

When you sin, the Holy Spirit pricks at your conscience. If he can't get through to you via your conscience, he starts disciplining you externally (for if you are not disciplined, you are not one of his). And if that still doesn't work, he kills you and takes you home.

Given these retention mechanisms, explain to me how you plan to jump out?

Willing_Regret_5865

Christian

29d

I'll be happy to address your points as soon as you explain why you think its okay to be rude, condescending, and aggressive to a brother in Christ, especially with zero provocation. I didn't insult you or act unkind towards you, I asked you to contextualize a Bible verse that contradicts what you were saying, to get your perspective. Yet, you have been nothing but impolite. Why? Are you just that way with people? If so, you shouldn't be, as the Bible (Eph 4 29-32) has asked us to be kind toward one another.

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

29d

I was blunt, not rude. You interpreted that as rude. You twisted the Scriptures with your "but I can, as sure as hell, jump out of it" comment, so sorry I didn't sugarcoat my response.

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

29d

Your "I can jump out" snip was a blatant twist on a passage that was supposed to be reassuring of our salvation. It was a blasé and disrespectful way to treat that verse.

And yes, it was also naive. The idea that God is so apathetic about your soul that you could "sUrE aS HeLL jUmP oUt" says a lot about your life experience with God. Even if I agreed with you that losing one's salvation is possible, can we not at least agree that it isn't so easy??

Good God, man! Have a little respect for the Scriptures!

Continue thread...

moonunit170

Maronite

29d

The Holy Spirit and his gifts can definitely be rejected.

Fundamentalists teach that when God gives a person the grace that enables him to come to salvation, the person always responds and never rejects this grace. For this reason many have called this the doctrine of irresistible grace.

This designation has the drawback of making it sound as though God forces people against their will to come to him (like the Borg warning, "Resistance is futile! You shall be assimilated!") The designation also sounds unbiblical, since Scripture indicates grace can be resisted. In Acts 7:51 Stephen tells the Sanhedrin, "You always resist the Holy Spirit!"

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

29d

This designation has the drawback of making it sound as though God forces people against their will to come to him

No it doesn't. That's a misrepresentation of OSAS, in which God's grace is irresistable because it operates natively on our will. Making us want or "will" to come to him is how his grace is irresistable.

moonunit170

Maronite

29d

Except God never forces anyone to do anything he always leaves a way for the person to make his/her own decision.

Thinslayer

Reformed Baptist

29d

OSAS don't believe he forces anyone either. Force isn't part of the equation. I don't know why people keep acting like OSAS is about "force."

Gry-s

29d

Hmm I'm not sure I agree with this "The more you try to leave, the harder the Spirit tugs at your conscience." We are warned not to grieve the Holy Spirit, and the more we ignore it the less it is heard, until eventually we hear it no longer. Look at Saul, or even Judas who performed miracles. If we hold to a certain sin, or continue to do something that we know is wrong, we are distancing ourselves form God.

I think it all comes down to choice and free will. God gives us a choice to choose Him, or not. He doesn't want preprogrammed love, but conscious love and obedience by choice. In the same way once we are saved we always have a choice to turn away. 1 Peter 5:8 tells us to "be sober be vigilant." Just as Adam and Eve were in the garden with God, they had a choice to be faithful, or to disobey and try the fruit of the tree of knowledge. If we could not fall away that poses two issues - 1. we loose our choice if we are unable to leave, 2. people still sin daily, and yet they would have no reason to repent.

Paul talks about finishing the race, being diligent and persistant. This is our continual surrender to Christ, coming before Him every day and acknowledging that we need him. Paul says "I die daily" 1 Corinthians 15:31.

The tough issue about OSAS is that it seems to debate more the issue of whether or not someone is truly saved for if one turns away the claim can simply be made that they never truly gave their heart to Christ. Judas had the Spirit of God when he went out with the other disciples and they healed in Jesus' name though.

Willing_Regret_5865

Christian

29d

Absolutely. Ive noticed that OSAS seems to inspire a "no true scottsman" mentality, as well as a boatload ot arrogance. It makes sense - if you don't need to repent, and there's nothing you can do to forego your reward, of course you'd become a spoiled, petulant child.

slickshot

30d

No one is asking you an important counter question. How do you suppose you'd lose your salvation?

International_Fix580

Lutheran

30d

You only loose your salvation if you throw it away.

SatanbeBound

Christian

30d

Love and salvation are separate. God will always love you. You have to love him if you want to be with him.

Jesus said if you love me then keep my commandments

JimiTrucks1972

29d

For us to strive to live here and now. But He is not saying if you break one of these you’re going to hell and lose your salvation. Jesus also said if you love one another you fulfill the whole of His law. God is not capricious. He isn’t sitting there watching us excited to see us slip up. He is our Father. He loves us and Jesus said He would never forsake us. When I am faithless, He is Faithful! Thank you Jesus!

John628_29

30d

Look, brothers and sisters, why live a tortured life in fear that you could lose your salvation? There is nothing in the Bible that says you can lose your salvation. If we become children of God, where does it say we can be rejected as children? Would you disown your own children if they didn’t like you? You definitely would not. Bible says we are stamped with the Holy Spirit, that sounds permanent to me.

“In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God]. [John 7:39; Acts 2:33]” ‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭1‬:‭13‬ ‭AMP‬‬

harpoon2k

Roman Catholic

30d

.."sounds permanent to me.." This is why Church Authority is important or we run the risk of erroneous interpretation.

John628_29

29d

What makes someone a church authority?

harpoon2k

Roman Catholic

29d

It's a long read. I suggest start reading church history from the Apostolic age to third millennium

IshHaElohim

Christian

29d

—-First some thoughts. Based in 1 Corinthians 15:28

First, salvation, ultimately culminates into eternally dwelling in the presence of God as delight much like the garden but better, with all the Holy Ones, praising God enjoying his presence and glory forever..

The Holy Spirit is the person power and presence of God and he convicts of sin=missing the mark, Jesus is the mark of the glory of God humans were designed to image.

The demons believe and shudder, perfect love cast out the type of fear they have because this is a fear of judgement which is why they prefer darkness because their works are wicked.

In this world, if peoples identities are composed of pride in their sin, when they feel conviction it is condemnation, they are set up to view love as hate and the works of God as works of enmity.

God is a consuming fire, when all darkness is filled with the light of the true Son of Man and Son of God, when the prideful wannabe gods are surrounded by the presence and glory of God being all in all, which is the goal and end of all things, for them this would be hell, a fire of judgement prepared for the devil and his angels.

The presence of God would be torment for all who want to hold onto imaging what is in opposition to him, and for all who view conviction as torture.

Like the inexperienced person you want to help but their pride makes them run from assistance in attempts to establish their own identity and their own way, only to be humbled or double down on their ignorance..

This is the way man responds to infinite wisdom and grace of God

For we who have a fear which is awe, and love God and are not trying to establish righteousness apart from him but realize he IS Good, he IS Love, his standards ARE Truth, this is paradise.. ——————

As to your question..

God is love, he is the condition, you remain in him and keep his word if you love him you obey his commandments.

This modern idea of unconditional is self centered garbage.

Gods love is not subject to conditions because it is self existent in his being, but if you love your soul and self , then when you pray it will not be in the will of God, and you will find yourself praying to your own desires, demons, and false gods.

People act as if salvation is all about them, or as if it’s a teaching they agree upon and now have immunity because they agreed .

Remember God said to Nineveh you will be destroyed, they repented of that evil and were spared, if God says you will not be destroyed and you repent of good what do you think happens (repent=hebrew turn around, Greek=change in your mind)

It’s never about the mistakes you make on the way, it’s about the seed level in the mind, the mental and spiritual disposition, who is your shepherd who is your teacher, your practicing righteousness the focus cannot be self or you will fail in either direction, it must be a pursuit of who you Love , God.

Salvation is not merely a doctrine, it is salvation, God says Ezekiel 3:18When I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; and thou givest him not warning, nor speakest to warn the wicked from his wicked way, to save his life; the same wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 19Yet if thou warn the wicked, and he turn not from his wickedness, nor from his wicked way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. 20Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. 21Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

The modern mind has turned salvation into a doctrine a feeling a moment or an affirmation to agree in something they don’t experience or understand , they have turned faith into an affirmation to arrogantly bluff .. none of these things are The Faith…. (the word comes from the word for faithful.. )

That’s not salvation, salvation is following Christ, forsaking your life for his sake and finding it in him, salvation is carrying your cross humbling yourself and crucifying the ego , that Gods will may live in us his body because we love him, salvation is beholding the glory of the Lord and being transformed from glory to glory.

It’s not about I made a mistake and lost it, it’s not about I am saved and now can live for self, the gospel is not a sales pitch it’s a declaration of the victory of God, and to follow the lamb wherever he goes is our union with God, and we offer ourselves as living sacrifices to inherit the Kingdom.

When we are in a I made a mistake in going to die mindset, we are still living for self..

Wholly being submitted to God and surrendered to his mercy and spirit involves an awareness of our sin beyond our actions to the cause, this awareness brings greater grace, not grace as license to sin but grace(charis=gifts) as the power to overcome..

God can walk us through the assumptions the culture of this world or our upbringing has placed into us, our prayers are according to his will ,not for things, but for becoming, to build qualities through revelation of his nature, to exchange our weakness at the cross, to be molded by the potter, to behold him and keep our eyes fixed on Jesus, to walk in wisdom for his own name sake.

Gry-s

29d

God's love is complete, and everlasting, upon the just and the unjust. Just because you choose not to receive His love doesn't mean He stops loving you.

1 john 4:19 "We love Him because He first loved us."
Romans 5:8 "But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

A parent will love their child even if that child turns away or disobeys them. "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth." 1 Tim. 2:3,4

FistoRoboto15

Baptist

29d

You don’t lose your salvation. That’s a silly idea. “Whom God foreknew he also predestined.” Jesus has either forgiven your sins or he hasn’t. He didn’t die on the cross for “some” of your sins, or just the small ones. People struggle so hard to grasp the simple concept that in Christ we will all be more or less like him depending on our current walk, but it is not our ability to uphold our end of the “bargain” that makes us worthy of entering heaven, that’s a false gospel. Now SHOULD good works result from genuine faith and serve as evidence that our faith is true? YES! But these works do not make us worthy, nor do our sins undo what Christ has done.

To any point that argues you can “lose your salvation” that would just put us back at square 1 again, hoping to be good enough and trying to obey the law to a perfect standard that we aren’t capable of. No Christian is perfect, but by the power of the Spirit, God grants us the ability to glorify Him!

JimiTrucks1972

29d

Well said!

DelightfulHelper9204

Christian

29d

You can't lose your salvation. Who lied to you and told you that you could.

Do you have any Bible verses that say you can lose your salvation?

IndependentCloud3690

30d

Whether is conditional or not is kinda stupid. Nowhere in the bible it says it's unconditional

NateHasReddit

29d

God's love is conditional.

Not sure why we say it isn't.

choketheserpent

Christian

30d

There are already some good answers in this post that explain your question. If you're interested in more, there's a testimony of a man who died as an atheist, and met Jesus before entering into Hell. He explains things about God's love that will give you understanding: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SZPZyYvgoM

AB-AA-Mobile

Christian

30d

Here is an analogy: Let's say you're a parent and you love your son. The best you want for your son is to let him have freedom to make his own life choices. You do your part to teach him, you warn him of all the consequences of his actions, and you provide him with all the tools he needs to succeed in life, but ultimately, you let him decide what to do with his own life because you love him and you don't want to control him. Eventually, your son leaves you and joins a gang. He then goes on to commit several heinous crimes. Coincidentally, you are a high ranking government official with a lot of power and influence. Because you love your son, you take a plea deal with the court of justice to ask them to punish you instead of your son. But your son refuses to talk to you or accept your deal. What do you do? Do you pay off the cops to cover up your son's crimes? Or do you let the justice system hand out the necessary punishments?

GardeniaLovely

Christian

29d

‭Romans (Rom) 8:38-39 CJB‬ [38] For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor other heavenly rulers, neither what exists nor what is coming, [39] neither powers above nor powers below, nor any other created thing will be able to separate us from the love of God which comes to us through the Messiah Yeshua, our Lord.

I'm "any created thing" I am powerless to seperate myself from the love of God.

Only taking the mark can send you to hell once saved, as we have been warned.

K-Dog7469

Christian

29d

No, but it makes salvation conditional.

Jesus wasn't tortured for salvation to be conditional.

SelkoBrother

Christian

29d

God loves everyone, but everyone has free will. Look at the prodigal son. He was with the father, but rejected him and then did what he wanted and was lost. He then chose to repent and come back to him, but he could have as well not have done that.

The branches in the vine that don't produce fruit are cut off, if they don't abide in the vine.

There were 5 foolish virgins who knew about the bridegroom, but didn't care and weren't prepared.

Judas did miracles and cast out demons, none of the other deciples expected he would be the one to betray Jesus.

If you were lukewarm and God still wantes you, he wouldn't spot you out of his mouth.

Ananias and his wife had the Holy Spirit and still tried to fool God and were killed.

Paul talks before the second coming of Jesus, the great apostasy will take place.

In the old testament people who were anointed and had the Holy Spirit and turned against God, God let them do their thing. King Saul for example.

Salt can lose it's saltiness.

drunken_augustine

Episcopalian (Anglican)

29d

I'm not going to get into all of the reformed theology and non-reformed theology arguments around this. For me it's simple: love God, believe in Jesus, try your best to be loving to your neighbors, confess when you mess up and then try again, and trust in God. Emphasis on that last one. I'm sure there are plenty of good and Godly people who can make super detailed arguments dissecting Scripture. I don't have the energy for that at the moment, so I'm going to say that no, God's love isn't conditional, but our salvation is. If God's love saved us, there would have been no need for the Crucifixion as God has loved humanity fully since He created it. We have to agree to being saved, because God loves us enough to allow us freewill. Even the freedom to choose destruction. To borrow from Augustine: "the God who made us without our help will not save us without our consent".

Zhou-Enlai

Christian

29d

God loves everyone, even those who are damned. If you accept the gift of salvation from Christ and then throw it away, you can always come back and the Lord will be waiting for you.

SeekSweepGreet

Seventh-day Adventist

29d

God's love is not; His covenant is. Communion requires that conditions are set to continue a relationship. Unconditional love does not mean you're free to do as you please outside a relationship without consequences.

Leaving God, effectively breaking the covenant you made to live for Him, or by His ways, can lead to doom. At any time before said doom, you decide to return, He will, because of Love, accept you back.

🌱

fakeraeliteslayer

Roman Catholic

29d

Deuteronomy 30:19 God gives everyone a choice to make. If you choose to walk away from God he isn't going to stop you. Love has to be a choice from the heart. You can't force someone to love you. Otherwise it would not be true love. God gives every man a choice to make.

realKingCarrot_v2

Christian Anarchist: render unto God what is God's

29d

Yes, that's how we know you can't lose your salvation.

Frost_Walker_Iso

29d

No, because he never stops loving you. God won’t force us to love him, and he won’t force us to worship him, so if we choose to rebuke him, then our punishment is on us.

God will punish us for our wrongdoings if we remain unforgiven. The only way to be forgiven is to ask for forgiveness from Jesus.

SoGratefulForJesus

29d

Salvation does not equal love.

Willanddanielle

Christian

29d

I am not a OSAS person. I think that God's love is not conditional....infact, while I was a sinner God sent his son to due for me....but, I can choose to give away his grace.

Andrew_J_Stoner

Lutheran

30d

God in his wisdom has determined that it is a greater love to offer us salvation but not force us to take it, than to take away our free will. His love is unconditional, but salvation is conditional

steadfastkingdom

29d

God always loves, it is us who denies it.

Ksi1is2a3fatneek

29d

No. Because we all have Gods love. But some choose to reject it.

moonunit170

Maronite

29d

No. It has nothing to do with his love. It has to do with your obedience.

Cepitore

Christian

30d

In that sense God’s love is conditional either way.

patmanizer

-2

Christian

30d

God loves you - but doesn’t mean you’re saved. It means that He love you so much that He sent Jesus to die for your sins. Anyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life.

God’s love is unconditional. Salvation is conditional.

patmanizer

Christian

30d

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jmac0585

Church Of Christ

30d

No, it makes YOURS conditional

amishcatholic

Roman Catholic

29d

Same argument would apply if anyone was not saved. So no. The sun continues right on shining even if I block it from myself with an umbrella. God keeps right on loving me, but I can choose to separate myself from this love.

VoiceIll7545

Roman Catholic

29d

God doesn’t stop loving us but we can stop loving him.

Nintendad47

of the Vineyard church thinking

29d

You are saved because you have faith in Jesus as God and saviour.

”And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.“ ‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11‬:‭6‬ ‭ESV‬‬ https://bible.com/bible/59/heb.11.6.ESV

So to loose your salvation is to loose faith.

Light1209

Christian

29d

God is love. You have salvation if you seek and want God, you lose it if you willingly go against him and choose something other than him so his love is unconditional. He'll love you even if you turn away from him but if you choose against him and don't accept that love, that's totally on you.

Djh1982

Roman Catholic

29d

I think it’s more a matter of free will than a question about God’s love.

rapitrone

Christian

29d

It makes salvation conditional, but it always was.

BeTheLight24-7

Disciples of Christ

29d

People lose their salvation by their own choices. Jesus says pick up your cross every single day, not go, live for the world, like you have some kind of license to sin. God will always love you but through our own free will he gives you the choice are you going to follow him or are you just going to use him as a crutch while you live your selfish greedy life nowhere near walking with Jesus.

Upon death, God will see right through you, your intentions, your motivations, and what kind of heart you truly did have.

⁠⁠⁠Depart from the faith (1 Tim. 4:1)
⁠⁠⁠Wander away from the faith (1 Tim. 6:10)
⁠⁠⁠Swerve from the faith (1 Tim. 6:21)
⁠⁠⁠Abandon our faith (1 Tim. 5:12)
⁠⁠⁠Make shipwreck of our faith (1 Tim. 1:19)
⁠⁠⁠Fall from grace (Gal. 5:4)
⁠⁠⁠Desert him who called you and turn to a different gospel (Gal. 1:6)
⁠⁠⁠Receive the grace of God in vain (2 Cor. 6:1)
⁠⁠⁠Swerve from the truth, upsetting the faith of some (2 Tim. 2:18)
⁠⁠⁠Drift away from the truth (Heb. 2:1)
⁠⁠⁠Have an evil, unbelieving heart, leading us to fall away from the living God (Heb. 3:12)
⁠⁠⁠Be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Heb. 3:12-14)
⁠⁠⁠Fail to reach the promise of entering into His rest (Heb. 4:1)
⁠⁠⁠Fall by disobedience to enter His rest (Heb. 4:11)
⁠⁠⁠Fall away and impossible to restore unto repentance (Heb. 6:4-6)
⁠⁠⁠Deliberately go on sinning and no longer have a sacrifice for sins (Heb. 10:26-27)
⁠⁠⁠Shrink back (Heb. 10:38)
⁠⁠⁠Fail to obtain the grace of God (Heb. 12:15)
⁠⁠⁠Wander from the truth (James 5:19-20)
⁠⁠⁠Forsake the right way (2 Peter 2:15)
⁠⁠⁠Become entangled and overcome AFTER having escaped them (2 Peter 2:20-21)
⁠⁠⁠Be carried away with the error of lawless people and lose our stability (2 peter 3:17)
⁠⁠⁠Commit a sin leading to death (1 John 5:16)
⁠⁠⁠Stop abiding in the teaching of Christ (2 John 1:9)
⁠⁠Keep your servent from willfull sins. May thay not rule over me, then i will be blameless innocent of great transgression-(judgement) (psalms 19:13)
⁠Surely we don’t need to start again with the fundamental importance of repenting from evil deeds (hebrews 6:1)
⁠1 Timothy 4:1 Some will depart from the faith due to evil spirits
⁠1 corinthians 6:11-13 11And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. 12"Everything is permissible for me"-but not everything is beneficial. "Everything is permissible for me"-but I will not be mastered by anything. 13"Food for the stomach and the stomach for food"-but God will destroy them both The body is not meant for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.

JimiTrucks1972

29d

Not a single verse is about a true NT Believer “losing” their salvation. We didn’t earn it, and there is nothing we can do to keep it. It’s not hard to understand. This causes so many people to suffer in their walk needlessly

BeTheLight24-7

Disciples of Christ

29d

Once saved always saved, is not sound doctrine

JimiTrucks1972

29d

To be secure in the finished work on the Cross is incredibly sound doctrine. But it’s something I won’t argue over. I respect you brother, I just disagree with you. And that’s ok!

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