St. Louis: A Pleasant Surprise

Just wanted to drop a quick review of our brief stop in St. Louis (from Milwaukee) en route to catch the eclipse. Your city left a great impression!

First off, I have questions: St. Louis style or Milwaukee style—which came first? I couldn't help but notice the striking similarities between the two. Anyone know the true origin story?

Unfortunately I did not get to sample the St. Louis-style pizza so I cannot weigh in.. but blame that on Kimchee Guys – wow! Seriously, if you're in town, do yourself a favor and stop by. Especially if you have never had Korean Fried Chicken. This place was excellent, good prices, and the staff friendly. Hey Kimchee guys - how about opening a shop up north?

Before we ate we made a stop at Forest Park.. I have been to St. Louis in passing before and I have been definitely missing out. We (my wife and I) barely scratched the surface in our short visit. Definitely on the list for a more leisurely exploration next time.

We slept at the Hilton Garden Inn. Look, I'll be honest, the property was a bit worn around the edges, and those "user assumes all risk" signs in the parking lot gave us a moment of pause. But, the housekeeping crew seemed to take pride in their work based on the condition of our room and everything else went off without a hitch. There was not a lot of accommodation to choose from considering the eclipse travelers.

Overall, St. Louis, you've won me over. Despite the brief stay, we are eager to come back for a proper adventure. Until next time!

edit: fixed a word

in StLouisby acrobaticOccasion

553

96%

1mo

bananabunnythesecond

201

Downtown

1mo

Come on down for a Cardinal Brewers game, you will have a blast!

Or come down when the Cubs are in town and we can boo the Chicago fans together!

titan_1010

1mo

As a Chicago fan I embrace this. The rivalry is pretty healthy, but compared to some out of town rivalries in baseball, really good natured.

notfromchicago

1mo

Yep, as a Cubs fan I definitely get shit talked by the crowd for my cubbie gear. But it's good natured. It's all part of the experience. I've never felt unsafe or unwelcome at a cardinals game.

DarkGodRyan

1mo

It is when the talk is better than "other team sucks", that's like 90% of what I hear at any stadium

Drum_Eatenton

Mitchell, Illinois

1mo

I yelled WKRP sucks when Cincinnati was in town about 20 years ago.

DarkGodRyan

1mo

Have some respect kid that show was a banger

Drum_Eatenton

Mitchell, Illinois

1mo

The gloves are off during silly trash talk

Soyoukeeptellingme

1mo

I have a differing opinion when it comes to wearing Blackhawks gear to a Blues game. Those 300 level fans never let up on me lol

kelam_2002

1mo

Yea thats not the friendly rivalry that we have with other baseball teams

Kitchen-Lie-7894

1mo

It's an entirely different vibe. I wore a Blue's jersey in Chicago and I was glad I was in a group of 7. Cubs-Cards is friendly. Blue's -Hawks, not so much.

nomorestandups

1mo

Its another story the other way around.

KlingonLullabye

1mo

Rivals needn't be enemies, something I think gets forgotten too often

stlsc4

1mo

Couldn’t agree more, tho the Hawks make me see fucking red…Cards/Cubs games is some of the most good natured fun in MLB.

canada432

1mo

I'm not even a baseball fan but I adore the Cubs/Cards rivalry. It's so good natured and fun. My dad's a cubs fan living in stl and there's some great friendly ribbing that goes on with friends/colleagues/neighbors. It's such a fun rivalry compared to some of the ones that just get nasty and hostile, and if that's the case then what's the point, it's supposed to be fun.

cubsfan85

1mo

I'm a Cubs fan living here. Inherited from my grandpa. He always said since we lived on the Illinois side we should be Cubs fans but I suspect it had just as much to do with the fact that it pissed off his buddies.

The first time my mom and I went to Chicago we went with a tour group for a Cards/Cubs series to make logistics easier the first time in the city. Didn't think about the fact that it would be a Cardinals tour group leaving from St. Louis until we showed up at the charter bus all in blue. But we had such a good time we booked a second trip with them!

MrFixYoShit

1mo

When I worked at Six Flags STL I worked in the games department. I always called out people in head-to-toes Cubs gear. They were always good sports about it lol

ThreeLeggedMutt

1mo

Heck yeah!! We try to make it to at least one Cards/Brewers game a year because Brew Crew fans are lovely!

1979tlaw

1mo

I went to a game in Milwaukee where they played the Cubs and it was great. They know how to tail gate up there! Also I wore my cuck the fubs shirt and got so many free beers from tail-gaiters. Great times!

_NathanialHornblower

193

1mo

St. Louis: A Pleasant Surprise

Should be the city motto.

mrinsideoutski

1mo

I’m getting T-shirt’s made.

jpsoze

1mo

STL Style on Cherokee would make the hell out of these.

kelam_2002

1mo

I'd buy that

STLFleur

NoCo

1mo

Me too!

Wild-Turkey-

1mo

How about this one. St Louis: Pretty Decent

I’ll start printing the T-Shirts.

xentropian

1mo

St. Louis: It’s not that bad

acrobaticOccasion

1mo

St. Louis: Better than I thought

DogsDogsINeedDogs

1mo

😂

Illustrious-Mode3868

1mo

Bring some Spotted Cows when you come back

WindhoekNamibia

1mo

If you haven’t tried their cherry Belgian red, do yourself a favor

jpsoze

1mo

I can’t like this hard enough. It might be a blasphemy (although I did learn it in Wisconsin) but I like to mix them about equally.

manateefatseal

1mo

Oh Lordy these are good! I always have WI family bring some when they visit. Also, the raspberry one is good if not a little TOO sweet. The cherry has a nice tartness to it that aligns with my love of sour beers.

usmc50lx

🍰

1mo

Hell yes! Had a customer we were building a car for at an old job from Wisconsin. Every trip he made into town he brought a bunch of Spotted Cow for the shop

TheG0ldG0pher

1mo

Your comment is almost assuredly wasted on the majority of this thread, but what a reminder of something I miss! Such a cool brewery.

GMACD1

1mo

I have a friend and a sister in Madison I know what spotted cow is 🙂🍺 I’ve also toured the brewery in New Glarus beautiful countryside up there and a fine beer .

lucid_dreams420

1mo

Yes. Definitely go to New Glarus if you ever have the chance. It is lovely.

Also, Madison is one of the coolest cities around, and not all that far from the Lou.

TheG0ldG0pher

1mo

This guy gets it!

CommonNative

Bethalto/ 140&255

1mo

Heh. A friend from Madison, WI came down for the eclipse and brought curds and New Glarus Raspberry Tart. I have a couple bottles in the fridge.

I brought gooey butter cake and some curds from Marcoot. Which she was impressed by, actually. Completely different from the Sconnie curds, but good.

seamhead86

1mo

and Moon Man!

Crutation

1mo

So the thin crust and tavern cut is a Midwest thing. What makes St. Louis pizza unique is the crust is unleavened and usually has provel cheese. It seems to me that a ton of pizza places opened in the 1950's. Provel came later.

So-Called_Lunatic

West KY via Soco via South city.

1mo

Interesting fact, almost all provel is made in Wisconsin, even though it is consumed almost entirely in the St. Louis metro area.

HouseofProvel

1mo

St. Louis style pizza is not unleavened. Its just rolled out thin with a dough sheeter or a rolling pin. Every pizzeria in St. Louis and the surrounding areas uses yeast in their dough. Including Imo's.

That unleavened stuff is just internet nonsense. We don't have a single pizzeria that makes pizza like that.

Crutation

1mo

https://www.dogtownpizza.com/blog/what-exactly-is-st-louis-style-pizza/

https://www.food.com/recipe/imos-pizza-recipe-st-louis-style-pizza-380004

https://www.americastestkitchen.com/recipes/5841-st-louis-style-pizza

https://www.food.com/recipe/cooks-country-st-louis-style-pizza-472285

Top one is local. While you might say the use of baking powder could be called leavening, St. Louis Style Pizza doesn't use yeast.

HouseofProvel

1mo

All of Dogtown's pizzas are made with yeast. Its on the package ingredients list. I've spoken to one of the owners of Dogtown pizza, Rick Schaper, about that article and he said he didn't write it and would have it removed. That was a while a go so I'm sure it will be corrected at some point if they get around to it.

Here is a quote from Rick Schaper when I asked the Pizza Connoisseurs of St. Louis Facebook Group if anyone knows of any pizzerias in St. Louis not using yeast in their dough. "Only out of town stories say no yeast in St Louis dough. It's all BS. 99% of all pizza dough uses yeast, including STL . Some knubskulls think that because STL crust is thin is uses no yeast. Stl dough needs to rise/proof , it rises just like any pizza dough, stl just rolls the risen dough out thin, this allows for it to cook up crispy, not airy.. Stl crust doesn't rise more in the oven because all the air has been rolled out."

I've called and Facebook messaged around 30 different pizzerias in the area that make a St. Louis style pizza and everyone of them uses yeast in their St. Louis style pizza dough.

Do you know of any actual pizzerias in the area not using yeast?

Crutation

1mo

Well, according to their website, Dogtown Pizza. Also, America's Test Kitchen isn't some mommy blog , but a decades long company that makes it's reputation on researching recipes, and duplicating them. Their Cook's Country episode on St. Louis included St. Louis style pizza, where they specified no yeast. They also showed how to get close to provel. I have also used the King Arthur's Flour recipe (another well respected company) to make several times, and it tastes like Roberto's, Angelo's, and Pirrone's crust. So I don't know what to say.

HouseofProvel

1mo

According to the ingredients list on their pizzas that they sell, Dogtown Pizza uses yeast in their dough.

America's Test Kitchen has never operated a St. Louis style pizzeria. They don't even claim their recipe came from a first hand source. They are just parroting other recipe blogs/magazines. Its just some nonsense "Make this in an hour!" type of garbage recipe they slapped the name St. Louis on.

I've made the America's Test Kitchen recipe and the King Arthur's Flour recipe and neither of them are close to Roberto's, Angelo's, or Pirrone's. I've spoken to Roberto's, Angelo's, and Pirrone's and all 3 of them use yeast in their dough.

Have you ever bothered to check with the people that make St. Louis style pizza for a living about how they make their dough? Or are you just getting your info from recipe blogs/magazines that are written by people that have never even eaten the stuff?

acrobaticOccasion

1mo

Very interesting! I need to find some Provel to try. I never heard of Provel cheese. Good info.

Take a peek at u/HouseofProvel's profile. This guys pizza's. I am willing to take him on his word. In fact, I am going to try his recipe!

HouseofProvel

1mo

Good luck in the kitchen!

If you can't find Provel locally I have a recipe to make it at home. The only special thing you might need to order is the Sodium Citrate. I've gotten some good feedback on it so it should work out great if you want to give it a go. https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/10ds45p/homemade_provel_recipe/

itinerant_gs

1mo

What would you say is the best pizza in the area? I live in Shiloh, IL and I'm highly disappointed in the lack of great pizza east of the river. I worked at Shakespeare's in CoMo for a few years back in college and to this day the only place I've ever found that I like more is Cogan's in Norfolk, VA.

I'm not a fan of provel or STL style, unfortunately, at least so far.

HouseofProvel

1mo

If you're not a fan of Provel or thin crust I would recommend Pizza-a-Go-Go, Nick & Elena's New York Style Pizza, Blackthorn, La Pizza, Union Loafers, and Pie Guy.

match_

1mo

And that is why they are shite. I love provel but that type of crust has no character. (And that top article is just plain wrong. There is nothing about unleavened dough that makes it superior at supporting toppings, they probably just cheaped out and had neither the time or knowledge to make the dough correctly)

Trancezend

1mo

Thin crust tavern style is a Chicago thing and other Midwestern cities have taken their own approaches to this style. Deep Dish is actually secondary in Chicago... tavern style came a decade before.

Chicago tavern style origins have been traced to a handful of South Side establishments sometime in the 1930's. It wasn't offered on any menu's but was available. Vito & Nick's which opened in 1923 has been said to be the first to serve it regularly sometime around the early 1940's.

Amedeo Fiore (creator of STL style pizza) who is originally from Chicago. Influenced from Chicago's tavern style and from trips to Italy he created his pizza. Fiore started serving his pizza in late 1946... a few short years after moving down to St. Louis.

Amedeo and Elizabeth Fiore opened a small Italian restaurant at 204 N. Sarah which they called the Melrose Cafe. Fiore ordered an oven and developed a special recipe; St. Louis style pizza were born. The Fiores were serving pizza at their restaurant by November 8, 1946.

The Fiores changed the name of their restaurant from the Melrose Cafe to the Original Neapolitan Pizzeria. However, since the new name was a mouthful, they soon changed it to the Melrose Pizzeria.

In a classic 1947 St. Louis Post-Dispatch article, Fiore demonstrated how to make "pizza, a new arrival in St. Louis." This was the first documentation of what we today call St. Louis style pizza.

MRG_1977

-6

1mo

It’s trash. Not sure if it is the worst local pizza because there are some weird ones out there in the US but Chicago tavern style pizza done well is good pizza.

Astralwinks

1mo

Our group was surprised as well. We kept remarking that the housing/neighborhoods had cute architecture. We went into many restaurants/bars that Google said were "as busy as it gets" and never had much if any wait for service. We're from mpls/st Paul and kept asking "are we from like, a way bigger city? It does not feel crowded at all." Perhaps it was just this weekend, or somehow we were in the quieter areas. We were at Cherokee St, The Grove, and downtown.

Also, without trying most every bar we went to (in 3 different areas) were gay bars or at the very least very openly LGBT friendly. We know now the Grove is one of the gayborhoods, maybe Cherokee street too?

Everywhere felt safe even though we saw some people saying to exercise some caution in the Cherokee street area. Don't really get that, but we were only here for a few nights.

For a place we all had kind of written off, we all now would happily return to explore more in the future. The skyline and arch were gorgeous. Thanks for your hospitality!

raceman95

Southampton

1mo

MPLS is a bit bigger, as a metro area, but everywhere you were in South City is still fairly dense and populated. The "never having to wait in line" thing is actually kind of a meme here. I've never really noticed it as a transplant from Atlanta. But maybe its a bit true. Some really popular places do still have lines.

And I can see how people say to be careful in Cherokee street. The neighborhoods around it have been historically higher crime, but its changing fast, and Cherokee itself is a big tourist/commercial street. So its always been more lively and safe than the surrounding neighborhoods.

Psychological-Map516

1mo

Yeah tower groves literally has rainbow flags on the street lamps. Politically I feel like we are very mixed, even though Missouri is a red state and it's not that it would be hard to find some Trumper in the city, but the city is much more liberal leaning and so are the suburbs nearby. There are a few nutty trump signs sure but there's as many pride flags and black lives matter signs.

The best part of STL in my opinion is that you get city and nature within like 30 min of driving. I have friends who have small farms. And still spend a lot of time in the urban jungle as well. It's not too big not too small. We could use better clubs.

Oh and you have to see the City Museum!! It's just so much better than I can describe and not at all overrated. Every person I've taken is just blown away, even the ones who were not sold initially. Go.

LadyCheeba

Tower Grove South

1mo

cherokee during the day is fine and is usually fine at night too, but there are definitely semi-frequent incidents like carjackings and unfortunately a homeless man was literally set on fire in an alley a few months ago. i still go and many others do too but ya just gotta keep your head on a swivel 🤷‍♀️

mjohnson1971

1mo

Milwaukee and St. Louis really are sister cities in a lot of ways.

CreativeEarthling

1mo

Love reading posts like this! We get a bad rap and I don’t think it’s warranted. Glad you enjoyed!

guomo107

1mo

I'd have to agree! I wasn't thrilled when my wife said she had booked an Airbnb in STL for a long weekend last month. I was pleasantly surprised though. It was a nice time. Only complaint would be that the roads were terrible! Potholes and metal covers everywhere.

nikmac76

1mo

We are also coming out of an icy winter-it wreaks havoc on the roads.

Longstache7065

1mo

We're currently undergoing some major water infrastructure replacement that has a lot of streets torn up with metal covers, thanks to the infrastructure act. When the pipe replacements are done we're supposed to get full replacements (hopefully!)

guomo107

1mo

We stayed close to the botanical gardens. I’m not that familiar with the city. I just remember S Kings Hwy being a mine field for the metal covers.

SeaPreparation2382

1mo

The more you can avoid Kingshighway in general the better for a myriad of reasons lol. I live/work right by it and never get on it unless i absolutely have to.

guomo107

1mo

Noted for future visits

Other_Chemistry_3325

1mo

And the lines aren’t lit up when it rains

sickofmakingnames

1mo

I call it off-roading on pavement.

notfromchicago

1mo

I think I need to try Korean fried chicken now.

MaskedGambler

1mo

You do.

MaskedGambler

1mo

Shhhhh, go back to Milwaukee and talk of all the crime and gang violence you saw.

markwms

1mo

Second most glowing review of the year after this one: https://www.reddit.com/r/StLouis/comments/199klrj/new_to_stl_and_it_isnt_that_bad/

jcrckstdy

1mo

Nice now tell me about your Oktoberfest and the museum with wings.

StaceysAbsenteeDad

1mo

What if I told you there were an even better Korean fried chicken place for your next visit?

nomorestandups

1mo

Well come on now, lets hear it.

StaceysAbsenteeDad

1mo

Chicken 7!

keepurcool

1mo

I've got some bad news 😭😭 they're temp closed!!! I just tried to order some the other day and was so thrown off guard

Senior-Emu8894

1mo

Cafe Grenada on S Hampton are the same owners

Thuggish_Coffee

1mo

From MKE myself and have lived in STL for close to 10 years. It's quite the pleasant surprise!

WillLiftForBeer

1mo

Same!

washed_up_golfer

1mo

I was starting to wonder if positive posts were even allowed in this sub.

SomethingClever2022

1mo

You have to go to the zoo and the botanical gardens!!! STL is an absolute GEM!

DesperateJudgment899

1mo

Glad you enjoyed your visit and hope you come see us again! 😊

Psychological-Map516

1mo

You have to see the City Museum!!! Impossible to describe. Sort of as if a child designed a seemingly neverending palace of whimsy. There's planes half in and out the building, beautiful mosaics everywhere. You just have to go. My favorite place on earth. Not like a kid museum, although kids love it. It's really for everyone. It's an art expirience.

Also city museum is not free, but the zoo and art museum are! Big zoo fan.

mrinsideoutski

1mo

Milwaukee and St. Louis are sister cities to me. Milwaukee is a better Midwest city than Chicago now.

raceman95

Southampton

1mo

Both medium sized cities in the midwest with giant national breweries.

International-Fig830

-4

1mo

Chicago is a zoo.

Goin_Commando_

1mo

At my friend’s house growing up they had a rule that anyone who said the word “walk* had to take the family dog for a walk because he’d just go absolutely nuts when he heard the word. We were pretty sure he was part wolf because he came from a farm up north where they’d reintroduced them. Point being you couldn’t ignore him when he got rolling. And it didn’t matter your excuse. If it was long lost Aunt Edna who’d stumbled through the door after 30 years and five minutes later she uttered the word “walk”, Aunt Edna was taking that dog for a walk. So during the Cardinals-Brewers world series the dog kept going nuts and nobody could figure out why. We finally realized of course he was hearing Mil-WALK-ey. 🤣

HouseofProvel

1mo

For a St. Louis pizza history this site has a lot of good info https://losttables.com/pizzerias/pizzerias.htm.

Just to let you know, you may see stuff online about St. Louis style pizza being made without yeast. It isn't. Its made, more or less, the same way as Chicago and Milwaukee pizzeria make their thin crust pizzas. Made with yeast but rolled out thin.

Conscious_Honey5685

1mo

We just moved to STL from MKE! We miss it a lot!

Atheist_Alex_C

1mo

Nice compliments, glad you liked it. Next time try Riverside Diner for breakfast.

lucid_dreams420

1mo

Mmmmm, Riverside Diner. Southwest Diner is really good too.

acrobaticOccasion

1mo

thanks - saved your comment so I can remember to check it out next time.

lunafromthegrave

1mo

Kimchi Guys is my go-to when I'm studying on campus, so I don't blame you at all haha

centerneptune

1mo

My trip to Milwaukee was 25 years ago, but I loved your city; too. I went to a friend’s wedding…and the reception was on paper one of the simplest in a church gym: cheese, crackers, sausage…but it was also the best of each I’ve ever had. Very walkable downtown. Beautiful churches and homes near the Lake. I’d love to catch a symphony concert up there sometime.

User deleted comment

1mo

centerneptune

1mo

I'm sure it has. I just had to make mention of something being ostensibly simple...but the highest quality. I've been meaning to get back there, but just haven't yet.

hjka12907

1mo

STL is the best! Glad you enjoyed our city.

Emotional_Lock3715

1mo

I’m glad you had a great time! I have not had the opportunity to spend time in Milwaukee but I have been to Wisconsin and loved it.

STLTLW

1mo

Awww, thanks for visiting and posting to our sub, this is the kind of post we love to see! Please come back anytime!!

sunlightandair

1mo

I was recently in Milwaukee and had great Korean Friend Chicken at TODD, FWIW!

Any-Ad-3071

1mo

So happy you enjoyed your visit.

amsggb1979

1mo

Next time you visit you should try and stay at the 21c hotel downtown. It’s safe and I’m pretty sure you guys would love it.

acrobaticOccasion

1mo

I considered asking that question - I appreciate you. Thanks. Saved the info for our next trip.

Trix_Are_4_90Kids

Which high school did you go to?

1mo

I love Kimchee Guys.

Gurtonimus

1mo

Come to Steve's Hot Dogs and hang out next time you're in

acrobaticOccasion

1mo

I don't eat hotdogs anymore. I could make an exception for Steve's. Hickory smoked is all I needed to know. Looks like a great spot.

MNPhatts

1mo

From Minneapolis and stayed for the eclipse, completely agree. We'll definitely be back.

sirhellaz

1mo

I lived in Pewaukee for work and frequented those locals eateries as well as Milwaukee eateries. Fire pizza up there as well

Sufficient_Friend_

1mo

IMOs is snot on a cracker

Stl-hou

1mo

*cardboard (not cracker)

Mellow_Mushroom_3678

1mo

Imo’s is not the best example of St. Louis style pizza, by a long shot. I’m a north county girl, so Faraci’s and Pirrone’s are in my DNA. Both are miles better than Imo’s.

jenafren

1mo

Glad to see someone say this. It's the first thing my family had to eat when we moved in. We were all on the floor because we had no furniture. Crackers would have been better and cheaper than that pizza. 😬 We've never eaten it again. 😬 I just smile and nod when people rave about it. 😅

VioletMcGuire

1mo

I love seeing that Korean Fried Chicken is a thing in the Midwest! So many good things I enjoyed 20 years ago on the West Coast are everywhere now.

Goin_Commando_

1mo

Milwaukee style? Milwaukee has no style.😄

User deleted comment

1mo

PublicBrief6907

-2

1mo

Lol because it was an eclipse. The ONE time STL isn't on some hood shit.

Come back any other 364 days this year. Then post

You-Asked-Me

-28

1mo

I'm so glad you did not get shot, hit by someone running a red light, or distracted by all of the "what's on fire" posts.