Wikipedia says that 1 million Uyghurs are detained in Xinjiang, but I've seen WAY too many people on Reddit who deny it's happening and don't believe in it, calling it Western propaganda, and it's not like they're a fringe minority, there seems to be a significant portion of people who don't believe China is persecuting Uyghurs
Objectively, Who's telling the truth?, who can I trust?
I like how the answers in this thread are alternating between 'yes it is a genocide and it is real' and 'do not trust any answers in this thread, they're all Chinese bots denying the genocide'
(Having not read 300+ comments)
So all the comments are saying "it's real" or "don't trust the deniers", meaning they're all in agreement and there are no comments actually doing the denying?
There are those comments for sure, but they are usually heavily downvoted
One of the multiple percent owners of reddit might have something to do with that, too.
Lol...That's essentially correct, except they aren't people.
Tell me about it. I've been permabanned in three subs for discussing casting choices in TV shows.
Depends on what you've said about those shows. Saying the Bosch lead actor is an odd choice is one thing that should not get you banned. However, if you're bitching about the black Hobbits and elves in Lord of the Rings: Ring of Power, then yeh, you're likely to get slapped with a ban.
I love the black and asian elf entries in fantasy, they scan in my mind. I know exactly why I was banned and it doesn't change my opinion.
And Titus is awesome. :)
Especially when there’s a situation where we (as laypeople) don’t know all the facts. In 50 years time we might know the answer, but it’s too soon to say right now
…Where should he look for answers then?
Regular media at least has lines to read between. They have money to lose, a reputation to uphold, and the power to know what's actually going on.
Social media on the other hand - we could be anything bro, I could be a 14 year old tankie, I could be an 80 year old lead addled KKK member, I could be an antivaxxing hippie tripping balls on shrooms - we have nothing to lose from lying to you, nothing to gain from telling you the truth, zero credibility or provable qualifications, and yet for some reason still feel compelled to answer shit anonymously for internet points? That's psychopath behavior. We'll say the wildest shit because saying wild shit makes us feel excited, connected, important, like we know something. And wild shit gets engagement, so the wild shit gets pushed to the top.
That said, I think social media is fine to see what people are thinking but you just gotta remember there's a high likelihood each commenter is dumb, or malicious, or both, and because of the anonymity there's really no way to tell.
Well now I want to know- are you the tankie, Wizard, or hippie?
Damn ain't that the truth
The best possible response.
I shall offer my perspective as a Chinese (though not a Uighur and not too familiar with the Xinjiang area).
They are actually doing cultural erasure for sure. I live in Yunnan, and the local forces that be has forcibly converted the local mosques into a really drab 'new Chinese' style for the past year. Check out the BBC's report on Shadian Grand Mosque, I can vouch for its accuracy as I've recently been there to be sure about that.
Personally, it's really hard not to see the irony of the Chinese government doing to the muslim minority essentially what they've been bashing Imperial Japan and IJA for doing to Manchuria back in WW2. I am not saying the atrocities done by the IJA is in anyway justified, but it's really hard to get behind any policy that bears resemblance to the IJA.
I can vouch for this person. Live in China for a long time, lots of things we see locally, and I've heard from people that lived there...
Something happened for sure. Things are still happening. And the citizens living in those regions now have more restrictions upon them than the rest of the country.
Outside perspective since the recent misfire of one of your rockets over there near a town, the majority of locals seemed not to know about the missile silo at all. If some people know about the uighur disappearing do you think there's a fear of repercussions if the common people spoke up about it?
I'm sorry I don't support what china is doing but as far as I know Manchuria was on a whole nother level of horrible.
You may think it’s irony, but it’s also a country implementing something which they have seen first hand to work. Same with the Israeli government using the exact same propaganda tactics Germany used to get people to hate Jewish people.
What the hell is this comment, care to share some examples? You're also applying the same standard for any country at war I'm sure.
Hypocrisy is the way of the world, just like how Israel genocides Palestinians despite the Holocaust.
Hypocrisy and diplomacy always go hand in hand
Stop with the Holocaust comparisons.
It is not even remotely the same. You're talking about the same Palestinians during 1936 that publicly supported the NDSAP policies before WW2 even kicked off.
You forget the Brits had to literally squash a rebellion in mandated Palestine when the war started because they wanted to back the actual Nazis?
The power balance shifted now yes, but you're talking about a people who a target of extermination vs a people that wanted to support their extermination despite probably also being a future target of NDSAP policies.
Hypocrisy is victimizing a bunch of concertt goers and playing victim as soldiers without uniform.
That's not really a good example of hypocrisy at all, nor does it justify the murder of thousands of innocent women and children.
Murdering people at a concert is disgusting and reprehensible. Murdering thousands of children and traumatizing many more for months on end is equally deplorable. There is no justification for murdering children.
Hypocrisy is caring about some people's children dying pointlessly but not others, in case you wanted a better example. You are the hypocrite.
Same way Hindus are being genocided in Pakistan and Bangladesh but no one talks about it
Not something sponsored by the government or army, done by local mullahs. If you are a rich Hindu, nobody can touch you. If you are poor regardless of religion, you will suffer, though some communities suffer more than the other.
Sincere question: How is it you get online with services like Reddit? Is the Great Firewall just that lax or are you really working hard to not get caught?
VPNs will still work.
??? what is this bullshit?
i didnt know the IJA was converting mosque or any building to become more Japanese style. if they did , people wont even be remotely pissed.
the IJA is flat out killing people in the most sadistic manner. Thats a far cry from "converting local building to new architecture style"
So many times in history there are examples of a group having injustices done to them only to turn around and commit the same crimes on others. Israel and Palestine. Former U.S. slaves and Liberia.
From the About page on that website:
The initial phase of this research project is supported by the US government’s State Department, but we are actively seeking further funding to continue this research project.
lol
You can find many first-hand accounts of the Uighur genocide. You can find many independent journalists reporting on it. You can find NGOs reporting on it.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
https://www.colorado.edu/asmagazine/2020/05/14/uighurs-china-detention
You've got a British news source, a Qatari news source, and a reputable American college magazine. I can get you more if you want.
Of course the USA is trying to bring attention to the Uighur genocide. It fits US policy goals to paint China as a cruel, genocidal regime. It forces SE Asian nations to cozy up to Uncle Sam for protection. However, that doesn't mean it isn't true.
I see no credible evidence that there ISN'T a massive police state in Xinjiang, or that the concentration camps don't exist, or that a campaign of ethnic cleansing is ongoing. Should we be suspicious of the words of the US government? Of course. Should we also apply the same standards to the CCP? Yes.
both the bots, but also people from the west who will say and do anything in opposition to their own country because they hate their own country, and they put China on a pedestal as an ideal way a country should be.
You think the US doesn’t have “armies of bots”?
You don’t see much US glorifying content these days bro
I don't really want to start a fight but every action film produced in America is glorifying america. Every tv show with action or positively biased police related content is glorifying america. Every rule of law show or film produced in America is glorifying America. Every time a journalist doesn't question Donald Trump about his mendacity, that's the media glorifying America. Every time Joe Biden isn't held to account for his behaviour, that's the media glorifying America.
So you're basically saying that every piece of media produced in the US that doesn't explicitly critique the United States politically is automatically glorificiation of the US in your eyes?
I thought the entire established media industry, Hollywood etc were largely left-leaning compared to the rest of US citizens? How does this work in practice? Is everything, like, run by the CIA? That just seems super farfetched.
Please do me a favour and explain your rationale and provide some evidence for it.
Sincerely, a humble eurotard yokel
The Pentagon has actually funded a ton of movies since 9/11
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military%E2%80%93entertainment_complex
I'll say that the us government def has sway in hollywood in regards to what gets greenlit. There’s countless stories of directors getting cucked because of scenes that are critical of the US which forces the studios to not make the movie or edit it out. It makes sense if you think about it: if you’re making transformers or top gun 2, you need the cooperation of the us government for jets and military equipment and advisers. You can lose that if you make a critical piece of art as coppola did - https://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2005/03/holl-m14.html
the idea that hollywood is left leaning is just some good ol propaganda. They’re liberals who will do anything for money, not because it’s right. Just look at Israel. Most of Hollywood is backing a psychotic country and not batting an eye at genocide. Theyre not leftists because they hire gay actors, they’re capitalists.
as for the first point, I agree with the poster you are replying to. You can enjoy movies, sure, but America is inherently a fascist nation. Not pointing that out and only creating entertainment based off the same tools and systems that oppress people is glorification. Cop shows and movies are a great example. It’s even worse when the cops get a say in how they are portrayed, continuing the cycle.
im a dumb ass so feel free to ignore.
To add to your point. The majority of the talent in Hollywood are left-leaning by American standards, but the executives are capitalist. The whole bunch of them.
Who they vote for come second to keeping their companies turning a profit.
The US gov bots are designed to bash their strategic enemies such as China Russia and Iran. And their tactics has worked amazingly well.
Not that they’re using in large numbers on English speaking sites to rally patriotism. It’s just not really a current goal. Our bots are doing shady shit in other countries and/or for campaign reasons for sure though.
We have enough bored military drones to do both. We could be encouraging the Philippines to be anti-vax and also constantly telling Americans China bad.
Neither of those examples are rallying patriotism though? One is rallying hatred for another country, which is distinct from rallying love of our own country. I chose my words carefully.
The US bots are just a bunch of Croc wearing, gun toting, flag waving people that have been force fed the myth of “American exceptionalism” their whole life which has morphed into a racist/xenophobic/ethnocentric obedience. The government doesn’t need to invest in bots when they’ve brainwashed entire generations to mindlessly vomit out “patriotism” all over the internet.
Source: I’m American
Hypothetically let's say the US does have an army of bots. How does that refute the comment you replied to *AT ALL?*
That's just the US population and their obsessive sexual love of their flag and constitution.
In most non-dictatorial countries, most people wouldn't give a damn if someone disrespected the flag or insulted the country (unless its the French insulting the British)
When has China ever changed their behavior due to "international pressure"? Least of all ethnic cleansing
Not to join the 'all sides' argument at all, because I hate it, but has any country really changed due to international pressure? Every example I can think of is really just domestic pressure that was assisted by international isolation (e.g. Apartheid), but they sure as shit don't change without more direct action. I might be forgetting somewhere though (this is a genuine question).
In democracies, rarely, if ever, has there been international pressure without some manifestation of internal pressure first. International pressure is usually even slower to coalesce and if effective only really contributes critcal mass but having both does not necessarily ensure policy adoption. This truism does not necessarily hold for authoritarian states like China, though, where public opinion is obfuscated or quashed. International pressure has prevented China from invading Taiwan, as an example, but its worth note that people, even if theyre allowed, dont generally protest to prevent an anticipated action, civil disobedience is usually reactionary.
They just funded movements to distract the west.
I believe this deserves a “oh my sweet summer child”
They stopped because they achieved their goal for the most part.
Which was not "murder all and every Uighur" but "frighten the fuck out of every Uighur so that they are afraid to speak for another generation". Even IF one doubts describing it as genocide, there are more than enough independent, non-Western sources confirming extreme levels of brutality and oppression for a period of about 2-3 years towards Uighur population in Xinjiang. These same sources describe that the large majority of the everyday brutality towards individual Uighurs stopped, but not the general organisational measures towards forcing Uighurs into assimilation.
Basically, the Chinese are pursuing a long term forced assimilation strategy (which is a lesser form of genocide) and the brutalities and "reeducation camps" were a short term measure to break active resistance against this long term plan. They succeeded in breaking the resistance and don't need to expend further resources to continue brutalising individual Uighurs. If they continue the assimilation policies, in two generations there won't be any Uighurs in Xinjiang but just Chinese with some particular family cooking recipes.
All social media, including Reddit, is under control of propaganda farms. Russia, China and all their allies have been brainwashing us. The owners of all these sites are entirely complicit and aware.
American, too, don't forget we're not innocent either.
Great firewall makes it a lot harder to reciprocate propaganda though. The US is more prone to disinformation campaigns by having free speech protections and uncensored internet access.
It seems like people don’t understand this. Our populace is incredibly susceptible to this stuff in a way that Russia and china just aren’t… especially china.
It’s not even close to being comparable. Free speech and an open internet is great, but it’s a gigantic fucking chink in our armor when it comes to geopolitical cyber warfare through social media. This is a large part of the whole “let’s ban tiktok” thing, and we need to get serious about it.
I’m not going to sit here and pretend I have the answers to being able to do this without destroying our free-speech protections, but it’s something we need to be aware of as a society, and something we need smarter people than me working on ASAP (and I’m sure they are).
That might be the most offensive pun I've ever seen.
Yea I think a lot of the "but America does it too" comments are a knee jerk reaction and trying to come across fair and balanced. It's not like the US doesn't meddle a fuckton in international politics and sow our own disinformation campaigns, it's just that like you said we are so susceptible to online disinformation campaigns in a way China and Russia aren't. I don't know how to solve it either...investments in education would be a good start and banning Chinese owned apps like TikTok are easy wins imo, although just banning TikTok won't come close to solving the problem. I think it's just something we'll have to live with and make our population more aware of.
That isn't true.
(Source: I am one of the bots)
Armies of humans too.
You can make them extra mad with pictures of Winnie the Pooh
Yeah I’ve been banned from /r/LateStageCapitalism for even vaguely referencing near to the topic. Didn’t even know they were a Chinese run subreddit until then.
And anyone who disagree with me and my 2.200 upvotes is a BOT!
China is definitely trying to erase their culture (source https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cxrrkl6ve39o) and is forcibly relocating and detaining them (source https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-59595952). The people on Reddit who deny this are normally the same people who view China as an ideal society because it's supposedly communist, which they view as an alternative to the flaws of capitalism. They brush China's flaws under the rug accordingly.
China hasn’t been even trying to be communist since Mao Zedong died.
they utilize communist authoritarianism and methods of controlling people while adopting the most exploitative aspects of capitalism. Modern China is essentially the hellspawn of the worst aspects of both systems.
yeah it's basically "state capitalism" as a means to communism, or the opposite of what Marx hypothesized
👆this
It's really a one company corprotocracy. It couldn't be more of an opposite to communism if they tried.
It's hilarious how fucking no one has any clue what communism or anarcho-syndicalism actually are.
China is arguably more capitalist than America. Both Russia and China have monopolies which are extremely capitalist traits.
Ideally, any claims of fact made on wikipedia will be supported by sources. You can evaluate the strength of a claim by the strength of the citations behind it.
Conversely, a person (or a chatbot) can log into reddit and say anything, without any responsibility to provide documentation in support.
I know who I'd trust more, and it has nothing to do with how many people seem to be making the claim.
Frankly I would not trust wikipedia at all. A lot of their sources are secondary sources and they are often quite biased. Frankly Wikipedia has become widely unreliable and biased for any topic that is even mildly political.
In fact a major problem of Wikipedia is that a lot of primary sources are rejected under their nebulous "Original research" clause, while those primary sources would be a lot more reliable.
Now the Uhygur genocide is 100% real, but not because wikipedia says so.
Just click on the citation and see if it's legitimate. The linked source should have citations of its own therefore one can verify the info on wiki, or see if it is indeed a poorly cited wiki.
I both trust wiki and I don't. It's a skill to be able to see which sources are presenting the actual facts and not something else. I wish everyone would learn how to check sources in school.
"Hey Reddit! I can't find a consensus on Reddit regarding this topic. Anyways, give me a consensus.".
Partially because not everyone agrees on the definition of genocide. Nowadays, both cultural erasure and human extermination are bundled into 'genocide'. While both are certainly terrible, I think one is quite obviously far worse and I think we should use different terminology for both.
We should all use the UN definition.
To constitute genocide, there must be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to physically destroy a national, ethnical, racial or religious group. Cultural destruction does not suffice, nor does an intention to simply disperse a group.
IMHO, when people start disagreeing what a square is, everyone should be forced to say "rectangle with equal sides" every time.
It is happening.
It’s not something we can stop without getting into a land war in Asia.
It’s tragic, but unstoppable
getting into a land war in Asia.
One of the classic blunders.
If you believe Uyghur genocide = Pushing Mandarin-centric education and culture identity, then yes it's real.
If you believe Uyghur genocide = Detaining people who are deemed as "jihadist", "separatist" or "extremist", then yes it's real.
If you believe Uyghur genocide = Rounding up Uyghur people on the street and sending them to fire squads or slavers, then no it's not real.
In which case how is China behaving any differently to any western country and how they treat their ethnic minorities?
I am not advocating to poorly treat minorities, but treating minorities badly, is not the same as trying to eradicate their entire culture.
I wouldn't say China is eradicating Uyghur culture, more like reforming. What China wants to accomplish is forming an unified identity based on nationality rather than ethnicity or religion. "You are Chinese first, then Han/Uyghur/Manchurian/Muslim/Buddhist" is the narrative the government is pushing on every ethnicities/religious groups.
That's exactly the narrative that Western nations use - "you are French first and must abide by French laws".
They are cracking down on extremism which is valid. Nobody wants jihadists running around trying to blow shit up. They are.not taking away their culture or religion and are trying to integrate them into society
Article 9: The following words and actions under the influence of extremism are extremification, and are to be prohibited:
(15) Other speech and acts of extremification.
So in other words, "extremist" can mean anything.
As for not taking away their culture;
Article 4: De-extremification shall persist in the basic directives of the party's work on religion, persist in an orientation of making religion more Chinese and under law, and actively guide religions to become compatible with socialist society.
And on.
They are telling the Uyghur that they need to follow Chinese laws and not Islamic laws. Again - I don't see how this is any different from what France or Australia does.
France is banning headscarves in schools etc right?
Australia is incarcerating black people above the rates at which america incarcerated their black people.
Indigenous Australians are so over represented in prison its appalling how bad we treat our indigenous
France also bans Christian symbols in schools or any other religious symbol as they are hyper secularist.
They will not torture you or put you in re-education camps for being muslim though.
I don't claim to be an expert on Chinese policies regarding ethnic minorities, the following statements are just some observations I have as a Han Chinese citizen:
There are two kinds of ethic minorities in China. One kind of minorities are not very different from Han people except for languages and traditions, which is the case for most ethnic minorities in China. The main concerns central government has for these minorities are economical disadvantage, because people from these minorities often live in poverty and lack education. The policies are often about providing financial aids, advantage in higher education and job opportunities.The other kind are minorities that currently have almost no similarities to Han people, from social structures to moral standards. Uyghur and Tibetan people belong to this kind. The main concerns central government has for these minorities are national security, because they are currently a major source of regional instability, foreign interference and terrorism in China. The policies are often about reducing religious influence and culture assimilation.
Um, it is pretty different, I would say, compared to every western country I have ever visited.
France bans headscarves in schools.
Australia arrested a Muslim Imam who was performing "Islamic divorces".
How is it any different to what China is doing?
Article 9: The following words and actions under the influence of extremism are extremification, and are to be prohibited:
(15) Other speech and acts of extremification.
So in other words, "extremist" can mean anything.
That's why I put them in quotation. I know the definition of "jihadist" "separatist" "extremist" can be vastly different and I'm not gonna go into that.
Keep in mind that the country doing the genocide has a very state-focused, collective action society and a population of roughly 18% of all humans. It is relatively easy for them to astroturf ideas on the internet.
The way this is worded makes the Chinese population sound like single minded drones who all work for the state. Statements like this make me think twice about believing anything on the subject, one way or the other
Thats not necassarily 1 mil at the same time. But 1 mill over 7 years with presumbaly different sentences. Just as a clarification.
One the main issues with the debate is people taking extreme stances of them either being genocided or completly fine. When the truth is in the middle. All evidence suggests they are persecuted by many citizens and officials. But they arnt just being murdered in the streets as some people would imply. Their stories both from the CCP government, whistleblowers and journalists are very similar to what was happening in Australia to many of the Aboriginal peaople during the stolen generation. Essentially a cultural genocide where the government enforces it's culture and laws on their nations, largely through re-educating their youth and imprisoning adults that fight it or reject it publicly. Of course in idividiual encounters malicious people will use this as an excuse to be violent, especially those with authority or power over them.
Official population figures indicate a sharp decline in birth rates in XUAR from 2017. Data from the 2020 Chinese Statistical Yearbook, covering 2019, shows that in the space of two years the birth rate in Xinjiang dropped approximately 48.7 per cent, from 15.88 per thousand in 2017 to 8.14 per thousand in 2019. The average for all of China is 10.48 per thousand. ... Uyghur-majority areas represented the bulk of this decline, with two of the largest Uyghur prefectures especially affected by it. In Hotan, which is 96 per cent Uyghur, birth rates went from 20.94 per cent in 2016 to 8.58 per cent per thousand births in 2018. Similarly, the birth rate in Kashgar, which is approximately 92.6 per cent Uyghur, dropped from 18.19 per cent in 2016 to 7.94 per cent per thousand births in 2018. Even taking into account the overall decline in birth rates in China, these figures remain unusual and stark.
And there is also discussion about sterilization efforts;
The same applies to the figures regarding sterilisations and IUD placements in XUAR, with official data indicating an unusually sharp rise in both forms of procedures in the region during 2017 and 2018, in comparison with the rest of China. For example, in 2018, sterilisations in XUAR stood at 243 per 100,000 inhabitants, whereas the overall figure for China was a fraction thereof at only 32.1 per 100,000 inhabitants.
Book a flight to Xinjiang and see for yourself
Not a good place to ask. Read news sources from countries with opposing political views and form your own opinion. To be frank though, only china and its closest allies are denying the existence of a genocide or “systematic cultural erasure”. The rest of the world has condemned it as such and there is no serious source in the world denying this as the largest scale persecution of an ethnic minority since the holocaust.
Depends on what you consider "genocide."
There is a rather convenient definition which is: "If anybody is killing a group that I don't like, it is their culture to kill that group. If the group being killed tries to stop the people killing them, that's GENOCIDE! And committing GENOCIDE just proves they're evil and deserve to be hated and why everybody should kill them!" So, you start off with the premise that they should die and then you end with the conclusion that they should die, which is known as circular reasoning. A cute way to try to justify your racism.
The Uyghurs fell for right-wing Islamic radicalization and started killing non-Muslims. The Han at first tried to only target the terrorists doing the killing, but that wasn't a great solution because the terrorists always got to attack first (which is what identified them as terrorists) and stopping one terrorist didn't stop another one from being formed. Eventually the Han got sick of it, they swooped in, stopped the radical Imams from spewing their hate, and they rounded up everyone who exhibited the slightest hint of favoring irrational Islamic religious practices over being a good practical Chinese.
The Han did round up millions and put them in camps and made it VERY CLEAR that Islamic terrorism was not going to be tolerated.
Then the Han decided to earmark $250 billion to the region for economic development on the theory that being economically left behind was one of the reasons they were so susceptible to right-wing propaganda.
The terrorism stopped and the Han removed the camps.
Is that "genocide," or just very effective policing of a social cancer?
While i have no outright answer to your question, I think it is important for everyone to understand how modern propaganda works. Fabricating outright lies is a difficult strategy guaranteed to fail. The goal is to bombard the media machines in each nation with so much contradicting information that eventually a populous eventually believes they gave us by their own volition. Meaning your very question is this mechanism effectively working. When we shrug our shoulders and realize that nobody can tell who's right anymore, the propagandist has succeeded and your organization can move effectively without little to no concern about popular opinion. The sad part is that this is used by every country out there for various reasons including the United States.
Ask yourself why does china censor it's internet? Why does china have those large prisons or retraining facilities? How can china mass produce the goods that other third world countries can not even attempt to compete against in their own country? Example needed: Colombia can not produce many items imported in for lower cost, and yet the workers are paid nothing. How can china mass produce, ship and make money on these items? Is china using the Uyghurs for slave labour and discarding them after? Work them to death for example.
Yes and no. The Chinese are conducting an operation in the Xinjiang region to root out the separatist movement. Many of the suspects are rounded up and put into ‘reeducation’ camps for indoctrination to the CCP ideology. That much is true.
What is not true is that there is a “genocide” of the Uyghurs, they are one of the recognized ethnic minority group by the CCP and have political representation.
The Chinese may be heavy handed in their approach to rooting out Islamic terrorism but it’s a stretch to call it genocide
After the US realised it couldn't incite the uyghurs to rise up against the Chinese government they pivoted towards painting the Chinese response as a genocide which is not treated as such by any Islamic countries while the gaza invasion by Israel is treated as genocide by Islamic countries.
If the Muslims agree with China here and will stand up to Israel and the US on the other hand I think its telling on which one is more concerning to them
When I was 14 my eccentric uncle who had a habit of picking up random people brought a Uyghur woman to our thanksgiving celebration. She told us the terrible treatment she had endured before immigrating and confided that her dad and brother were still in work camps with no chance of her seeing them ever again. I couldn’t fully understand the extent of that tragedy at that age but it’s always stuck with me. It’s very real, and it still makes me so sad how little people acknowledge it.
too many people on Reddit who deny it’s happening
“people”
50 cent army
A good rule of thumb I’ve noticed is that the more aggressively Chinese media denies something, the more truth there usually is.
Depends if the person your asking is Chinese or not.
I've had conversations on here with Chinese people that refute not just the internationally verified genocide with actual satellite images of concentration camps. But they claim that Tiannimin square never happened and that famous photo was a CIA inside job.
Proper 1984 shit where what the government says goes, even against fact and history. When you've been brought up from birth in a school system that teaches you your objective truth they were pretty convinced.
Kind of a warning for the West being honest.
Wikipedia is pretty vetted in the sources used. An open Internet platform, like reddit, isn't vetted and just anybody with an internet connection can say what they want.
When you read something online, consider the source of that information, who is saying it.
There are photos and video of it. China uses bots a ton to deny it.
Can you share these photos of videos of organized mass killings
No they can't because that is not what is happening at all. Nobody is being killed, extremists are being educated on how to not be extremists and otherwise the government is trying to improve the lives of uyguurs so they have no reason to turn to extremism
There are photos of prisons. But the USA has a higher prison population than every other country on earth.
What has the USA to do with this? LOL
And If you want to talk about over representation of racial minorities we can bring them up but all must bow before the masters, australia and how indigenous Australians are incarcerated at a rate far beyond their overall representation in the population
All I know is the main reasoning for their detainment is that many of the Uyghurs want independence and form East Turkestan.
It's generally a good idea to just believe the opposite of whatever China vehemently says isn't real.
China is committing genocide at worst and ethnic cleansing/slavery at best. However, China works hard to censor information about it, and mandates that media outlets and tech companies that wish to do business in China help them keep their atrocities on the downlow. Because China’s consumer base is so large and valuable to corporations wanting to do business there, they help not only turn a blind eye to it, but attempt to blind everyone else’s eyes that bother to notice.
Short answer, yes. Long answer, yyyyyyeeeeeeeeeees
You can trust Wikipedia on this one for sure. People on Reddit are not trustworthy when it comes to this issue, either because they're on the take, have been fooled by someone who is, or are politically motivated for their own reasons.
Completely bonafide, 100% authentic genocide taking place in Xinjiang. Some mainlanders & CCP sympathizers are hellbent on getting you to think this is Western propaganda - there are plenty of cases where this is true, but this isn't one of them.
Censorship complicates the issue, as well as blatant racism. Many Chinese are very intolerant of the minority ethnic groups in China, as they view them as having an unfair advantage for schools & jobs (there is a policy in China whereby folks belonging to minority ethnic groups are not subjected to the same stringent criteria for their Gaokao & such).
I'm not fully convinced either way, but here's an explanation from a pro-china POV that I found interesting. It seems pretty well sourced. Everyone has their biases so like I said I'm still not 100% sure, but it's better to read about the "not happening" camp from a decently thought out argument rather than from a bot
PS to any comment debaters, if you're going to do that, take it up with the sub it's from and not me. I just shared it because I think it's best to analyze the strongest arguments from either side.
Look into the creator Laowhy86 on YouTube. He lived in China for 10 years and used to be a huge CCP shill until he saw what it was really like there. Or try Chris Chappel's "China Uncensored."
If your only source is US state department propaganda ( you know the guys funding and supporting an actual genocide in palestine right now) you just wanna live in your fantasy world.
It's as real as the french genocide of occitans. China and france have a ton of similar policies with regards to linguistic and religious minorities.
Yes it's happening. But lose social media as any good source of information. And yes, it seems as if no one cares. Very disturbing
That is going on, Tibetans were also in the list, as well as kashmiri Hindus, and the people of Sudan and south Sudan these are just a few off the top of my head.
You cannot do genocide in secret. There's just too much death by too many people over too long a time for that to work. Like, compare it to the actual genocide against Palestinians that is happening right now. It is very easy to find all manner of crimes against humanity if you look for them. It does not take much work to find people celebrating the death and destruction either. And the denials and obfuscations by the establishment are all very transparent.
The whole secret Uyghur genocide was thought up by the far right German, Adrian Zenz who claims to be on a "mission from God" to take down China for being spooky scary communists. The Western Establishment eats it up because China is seen as a geopolitical rival, so sinophobia is useful to have among the populace. Fear of the other is the 5th filter of the propaganda model - look up Manufacturing Consent to learn more.
Depends on your definition of genocide.
If you think it needs to be physical extermination i.e death camps then no.
If you think trying to make it so that there aren't any Uighurs left is genocide, yes and they're using a lot of methods and tactics common in genocides.
The evidence for it is pretty clear, but I'm not educated enough on the topic to judge based on what the current law is.
People around the worst and especially Muslims are protesting the genocide in Palestine right now and are not protesting anything in Xinjiang.
Ask yourself OP why are Muslims not concern3d with what is happening to their fellow Muslims in China yet are in Palestine? What is the difference between them? Could it be that one is actually happening and one is western propaganda?
As always, it has two sides. China wants to erase Uyghur identity as it's every subject to create obedient citizens with no strong feelings against the regime. On the other hand, they base it on Islamic extremism spreading across and causing China to face the risk of active terrorism within their borders, which is very real and already has support from organisations like ISIS within the neighbouring countries.
And the third perspective is the blindness of whole world as nobody has the balls to go against China and place sanctions, even Islamic countries or ethnically relatives, like Turks.
So, those people are fucked unfortunately.
Have a look at this and tell me what you think
First-hand account of Gulbahar Haitiwaji's experiences in a Xinjiang re-education camp, detailing her detention and the conditions she faced.
The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/jan/12/uighur-xinjiang-re-education-camp-china-gulbahar-haitiwaji
Independently verified drone footage showing a large number of Uighur detainees being transported and presented to the Chinese ambassador to the UK.
YouTube: https://youtu.be/NnbsUUU_zU4
Video evidence from inside the 'voluntary' re-education camps, including footage of a detainee handcuffed to a bed.
YouTube: https://youtu.be/SYhcrXYA6tM
Reports on the torture of prominent Uighur businesswoman arbitrarily detained in China.
Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/prominent-uighur-businesswoman-arbitrarily-detained
Blog post from Amnesty International urging China to release a Uighur activist from the alleged tortur in prison.
Amnesty International Blog: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/blogs/countdown-china/china-urged-release-uighur-activist-allegedly-tortured-prison
Press release reporting the torture and death of a Uighur man in detention.
Amnesty International: https://www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uighur-man-reportedly-tortured-death
China claims that nearly 1.3 million people per year, on average, receive vocational training as part of its efforts in Xinjiang, according to CCP data.
South China Morning Post: https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politics/article/3101986/china-claims-vocational-training-given-nearly-13-million-people
Data leak reveals the directives given to staff in Xinjiang's re-education camps, detailing strict control measures
Reported by
BBC: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50511063
The Guardian: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/nov/24/china-cables-leak-no-escapes-reality-china-uighur-prison-camp
New York Times: https://nyti.ms/379s0ch
Financial Times: https://www.ft.com/content/9ed9362e-31f7-11e9-bb0c-42459962a812
Al Jazeera: https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/25/secret-papers-reveal-workings-of-chinas-xinjiang-detention-camps
Experiences of Uighur women who are coerced into marrying Han Chinese men to avoid being sent to concentration camps.
Apple Daily (via Web Archive): https://web.archive.org/web/20210115210041/https://hk.appledaily.com/news/20200823/L44M7VTO7RDTJAGO3H4RBPFITM/
I think you should consider what subs you're in if the majority of comments deny the very real and obvious genocide happening in China.
Yes it is real. China is a country that doesn’t allow negative information reported in their own country. If it is, fhe journalists “disappear”. There many instances of this. You can’t even google the “tank man” from Tiananmen Square in China and if you try to talk about it, it instantly becomes a problem.
If Western news articles report anything negative about them, they instantly snap back with claims of lies and slander. But there is plenty of proof without reading Western news articles.
Heck, China stopped reporting its own covid numbers after the first 4000 cases because it wasn’t a problem anymore 🤨 and the first person to admit and attempt to warn people about it being something bad, FROM CHINA, ended up dead shortly after.
You tell me who to trust. The country that is constantly denying any and all wrongdoing or several nations who have reported on their wrongdoings for years.
You can literally look up videos on youtube to explain the history of China and how controlling it is towards its people. It’s wild. And what’s worse is that we never really went over it in grade school, we were focused on US history. At least in my school.
But there is plenty of proof without reading Western news articles.
Show me.
or several nations who have reported on their wrongdoings for years.
You mean countries that are in an ideological, geopolitical AND economical war with them?
The US and their friends have lied often before on countries they opposed. The WMD's from Iraq being the best and most famous example of all. So tell me, why should I trust the US when the majority of countries in the world side with China?
Is it all Uyghurs that undergoing genocide ? Even on youtube in Xinjiang you see them roaming freely like everyday people. I don’t know what to believe
That is where I’m at. I watch travel YouTubers go there and they have quite a few mosques in town, and it doesn’t look like a “genocide”. But that is such a convoluted term, especially when historically I think of the Holocaust. And that does not look like what’s happening here, but I could be wrong.
I don’t trust the US or China to tell me the truth when they both have a vested interest in lying about it.
Yes, if by "real" you mean "currently actually happening".
Bots... you've seen bots
The Uyghur Genocide is real but the PRC has an army of bots that will deny it and spread misinformation.
People deny the uyghur genocide as a matter of ideological Kool aid drinking. These same people make up the large vocal community of armchair communists on reddit and their support for the Chinese communist regime kinda falls apart if they acknowledge that regime has and is commiting a genocide against an ethnic minority.
Communist/socialist ideologies rely heavily on the assumed 'moral superiority' of their position. Any claims of moral superiority fall apart if/when they support a regime responsible for actual genocide. Thus it is not only convenient, but required to deny that it even happened/is happening.
Yes, it's a genocide https://www.genocidewatch.com/tenstages
It's totally real. China has online operations that purposely try to obfuscate the truth. They've been doing that for years though.
They're also trying to hack the government and private businesses, especially ones with patents, on a daily basis. This has been happening for years also.
Most people don't know or care because most in the US have a large bias against Muslims.
Anything in China 100% not genocide. Anything in Gaza is 1000% genocide according to the sheeple of reddit.
It’s perspective and what media tells you to believe. China just released a story about this huge solar farm in Xinjiang.. obviously used slave labor but totally denied because Gaza is the only true hardship in the world. At least that’s what tictoc and bookface tell me.
Very real. China works very hard to suppress news of this.
It’s definitely real, Reddit has lots of Chinese investors and as a result, bot accounts that push CCP bullshit.
Same thing in Tibet
It's very real. There are uyghur restaurants where I live. I asked them about this and they said EVERYTHING is true. The guy I talked to lost contact with his family like 7 years ago. He said everything is true. This is a small restaurant downtown. It's been picking up business, but yeah most of their employees are uyghur.
For what it's worth I've had conversations with Native Americans who report the same thing happening today in the USA.
China has an absolute truckload of bits constantly trying to make the government look good. There is satellite images and video recording of the Chinese abuse of the Uyghur. Never take random Redditors as gospel.
Aight link the images and videos then.
If they aren't, then they are doing an amazing job of making themselves look incredibly suspicious.
If you're interested, take a look at some translations of Chinese Law. As a friend of mine commented, that's some of the creepiest shit you will see outside of 1984.
And even when the CCP allows people to view the inside of their "reeducation camps", it is still extremely creepy..
This video collects a lot of sources and it's worth taking a look at.
The genocide is real. Wierd tankies deny it.
China literally has swarms of bots on social media programmed only to provide propaganda and misinformation. That's probably where most of the denial comes from.
As opposed to American propaganda where people spread it unknowingly while thinking it’s their own conclusions.
The Perfect Police State by Geoffrey Cain gives some pretty harrowing accounts from survivors of these camps. I believe the survivors.
Until someone can break into one of those facilities and actually live record of what's really inside, there's just no way of telling.
It's definitely real.
As u/GoatRocketeer notes, social media can be a problematic source for this sort of question. Here are some journalists who were among the earliest reporting on what was happening with surveillance, detention and suppression of Uyghurs in Xinjiang:
Megha Rajagopolan was one of the first reporters to cover this story when she was with BuzzFeed: https://gijn.org/stories/megha-rajagopalan-what-ive-learned-about-investigative-journalism/. Bethany Allen-Ebrahimian of Axios was also an early writer on the situation in Xinjiang: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/big-brother-and-big-data-at-work-in-xinjiang/id1121407665?i=1000458790171. In this segment from 2018, James Palmer, who is now an editor with Foreign Policy, talks about how all his Uyghur sources disappeared: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yQLliXOk1cM
Darren Byler is an anthropologist whose dissertation research was conducted in Xinjiang and he has written extensively about the detention ecosystem in Xinjiang that has ensnared both Uyghurs and Kazakhs: https://globalreports.columbia.edu/books/in-the-camps/.
Good for you asking the question about how to evaluate disputed claims!
Xinjiang, officially the Xinjiang Uyghur Autonomous Region, is a province located in the northwest of China. It is the largest province in China, covering an area of over 1.6 million square kilometers, and shares borders with eight other countries including Afghanistan, Kazakhstan, Russia, Mongolia, India, and Pakistan.
Xinjiang is a diverse region with a population of over 25 million people, made up of various ethnic groups including the Uyghur, Han Chinese, Kazakhs, Tajiks, and many others. The largest ethnic group in Xinjiang is the Uyghur who are predominantly Muslim and speak a Turkic language. It is also home to the ancient Silk Road cities of Kashgar and Turpan.
Since the early 2000s, there have been a number of violent incidents attributed to extremist Uyghur groups in Xinjiang including bombings, shootings, and knife attacks. In 2014-2016, the Chinese government launched a "Strike Hard" campaign to crack down on terrorism in Xinjiang, implementing strict security measures and detaining thousands of Uyghurs. In 2017, reports of human rights abuses in Xinjiang including mass detentions and forced labour, began to emerge.
Even if you believe the deradicalization efforts are wholly unjustified, and that the mass detention of Uyghur's amounts to a crime against humanity, it's still not genocide. Even the U.S. State Department's legal experts admit as much:
The U.S. State Department’s Office of the Legal Advisor concluded earlier this year that China’s mass imprisonment and forced labor of ethnic Uighur's in Xinjiang amounts to crimes against humanity—but there was insufficient evidence to prove genocide, placing the United States’ top diplomatic lawyers at odds with both the Trump and Biden administrations, according to three former and current U.S. officials.
https://foreignpolicy.com/2021/02/19/china-uighurs-genocide-us-pompeo-blinken/
The World Bank sent a team to investigate in 2019 and found that, "The review did not substantiate the allegations."
The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation (OIC) is the second largest organization after the United Nations with a membership of 57 states spread over four continents. The OIC release https://www.oic-oci.org/docdown/?docID=4447&refID=1250
In this same document, the OIC expressed much greater concern about the Rohingya Muslim Community in Myanmar, which the West was relatively silent on.
Over 50+ UN member states (mostly Muslim-majority nations) signed a letter (A/HRC/41/G/17) to the UN Human Rights Commission approving of the de-radicalization efforts in Xinjiang.
Today Xinjiang, much due to US/EU's media push, has become a major tourist hotspot with a big focus on Uighur culture. Which has brought a lot of wealth and prosperity to the people there especially in combination with all the infrastructure and job opportunities created by the Chinese government.
The Chinese government provides grants to start small businesses and provides free education that includes free optional language classes for the Uyghur's language. Which is better than what most western countries provide the many refugees their wars cause.
Does that mean life is just perfect and peachy for everyone? Of course not. But it is undeniable that the quality of life of most Uyghur's has greatly improved in the last few decades even if that does mean some of the extremists end up in an prison facility. At least the prisons are designed to re-introduce people back in society instead keeping there forever.
Personally I certainly find this approach a lot more reasonable and humane than the US's response to 911 which resolved in a full invasion and the deaths of a million+ Afghani and only had the result of leaving the extremists with more, not less, power after the 20 year occupation ended.
I wish internet had more people like you.
Hey. I’m relatively new on Reddit and check this app maybe 1-2 times a month. I’ve been wondering about the same question as the OP and a few months ago I went on a journey to try and find out. I’m highly over average interested in politics and have been for the last 25 years or so. I was so surprised how difficult it was to find good information about this specific topic , without relying on Chinese media or Reuters/AP-> cnn/bbc or even places like substack etc.
Your comment both gave me fantastic leads and some easily verifiable points.
This message became so long, but I only wanted to thank you, haha. And say that I wish I had more ppl like you around irl to dig deep into discussions like these and analyze the whole spectrum over a dinner or a couple of beers for, hours. To truly understand. Like I have been doing for decades. It amazes me that the discussion continues after your comment and the whole conversation hasn’t been shifted over to your comment, in order do dig deeper for future readers easy access to a well discussed topic. 99% of the people in here just keep saying “it’s a lie” or “it’s true”, contributing absolutely nothing. It’s like people in 2024 don’t even want to understand anymore. They follow their hearts rather than their brains.
@Lost_Wikipedian if you can read this, take it from here.
Not only are they getting detained, they're getting sterilized and forced into hard labor, this is on top of having government agents regularly spend nights with Uyghur families to do god knows what, China calls it teaching them to love their country. It's so bad Xinjiang is one of only 2 places in the entire world where the muslim population is actually declining, you decide if that's genocide or not.
But do keep in mind they are only one out of hundreds of people chinese dynasties enslaved.
People disagree on a genocide that is broadcasted live on tv. If people can deny such a widely documented genocide, do you think the uyghur one stand a chance?
Yes, the extent isn't easy to know cause China points the camera the other direction, but yes.
You ask that on reddit?
A good trick is to see the ideological trend. If you see redditors, honest to god reddit using people, AMERICAN, communism hating, redditors saying China is reeducating people and not doing anything wrong, you know something is up. And you'd be right, it's bots. Want a tip? Close reddit, do some research. Find actual sources. Then make up your mind about the Uyghur.
I remember hearing about this like 5 years or more ago it’s so sad definitely been going on a while i think they also force the women to marry the men there too I saw a video of this girl just bawling her eyes out cause she was taken and forced to marry it was so sad, can’t remember if she was in chains or not too though
Reddit is filled with a bunch of western world hating communists so it’s not surprising that a lot of people deny this, ask those same people what they think about North Korea and you’ll see what you’re dealing with
In situations like this, ask yourself "why would someone lie about this, who would benefit from lying about it, when this type of situation has arisen in the past, was it lied about and by whom?".
Generally that gives you some idea. Then go on social media fully aware of the fact that it's full of propaganda and being watchful for anyone who may have an agenda. Take nothing at face value.
Btw, if the people denying the Uyghur genocide are referring to it as "western propaganda", where would you expect them to be from? Would they have a reason to lie about it? Why would the west concoct this story if there's no truth to it? Cui bono? Who benefits from it being a lie? Why would China want to commit genocide?
Being informed and aware takes constant effort which is why most people don't bother and just fall back on their old, easy prejudices and assumptions.
Cultural genocide is a better term, imo. I was reading prisoners of geography, awesome book you should check it out. When talking about china it mentioned that a lot of han chinese move to provinces that have majority other ethnicities, to a point where the local population becomes a minority. I used to have a friend from my China and when i asked him the same question he said he never heard something like that. My country also has some allegations about the coast guard killing immigrants and although they are allegations, low key everybody knows whats happening. I think if there was a major scale genocide most people in china would be aware of it, or at least heard something about it. People die for sure, but i dont think its that there are concentration camps like most articles mention.
How many Chinese reddit agents can winnie pooh afford?
Maybe this thread is designed to identify them
It’s real but ask any Tankie pro Russia what the war in Ukraine is and watch
i mean communist party officially was the cause of death like 40-60 million Chinese.. so it's not a surprise it's still persecutes people for political or religious believes. I think recently "The U.S. House of Representatives unanimously passed H.R.4132 – the Falun Gong Protection Act on June 25, 2024, which condemns the persecution against Falun Gong by the Chinese Communist Party, including forced organ harvesting."
Reddit is literally owned by a Chinese company
Read the book "In the camps" - Darren Byler
Reminder that Uyghurs are a Turkic people and may freely be dehumanized, therefore their deaths or suffering are only significant insofar as it benefits the west to acknowledge.
If you want to find out the true you should go visit there.
In my opinion it's a ethnical genocide, so only the Uyghur culture is "killed" and not the people ... but that's also tragic.
i don't know anything about it really, but
it seems like an attempt to destroy a culture and re-programme a whole community of people into binning their religion
while many probably have been tortured and killed, i don't think torture and killings are being done on such a scale as to rank highly as a genocide
a steady stream of Uyghurs seems to be emerging from re-programming, allowed to resume normal life
it's absolutely nowhere near as bad as what Israel is doing to the Palestinians right now
The same people who are denying the Uyghur genocide also deny the holocaust ever happened
Reddit is majority left wing, lefties find it racist to point out when non-white countries are committing genocide usually
pro tip do not ask questions where the answer matters on social media. Anybody can say anything they want, and what gets upvoted and downvoted depends on what kind of people subscribe to that particular subreddit.