I’m still in high school and am in no way political, but from what I’ve seen and heard it seems like we Americans really hate communism. Why is this? From the definitions I’ve read trying to understand it, it doesn’t seem as terrible as made out to be.
Communism killed well over 100 million people in the 20th century. Mao alone way outdid Hitler. Read about the Great Leap Forward. They didn't teach me about that in high school.
The amount of idealistic communists and/or tankies that refuse to acknowledge the Great Leap Forward astounds me.
That figure has been debunked multiple times, comes from a fraud book. Not to mention Mao was never a communist, Stalianism is not communism etc etc.
Also how many people do you think capitalism has killed? A lot more than 100m......
Stalin enters the chat.
Because it was a HUGE fail. Like, a historical failure. Millions upon millions of people died very very badly within that system. Over 4 nations I believe. It always will fail. Utopia does not and cannot exist.
- It was an economic failure
- The leading Communist country (the USSR) openly declared its intention to destroy the USA.
Close to a hundred million died due to either incompetence or purges.
That's usually enough to signal something is a bad idea.
I always like to use a simple example though; if you want to go setup a commune in a western nation, no one will stop you (as long as it's consensual), but try sell the products of your labour in a communist nation, and you'll end up in a Gulag, or worse.
As a theory of society - Generally not seen as realistic, moreso just something that can work within small groups of people but would never work at scale.
Through the lens of history - Something that regimes use as a guise to oppress and kill people. A core part of communism is that there is no state but in order to get to that point you generally need a strong state that will dismantle corporations, private ownership, etc. and then "hopefully eventually teehee" give up power. Unfortunately anyone who has worked with other humans in the real world knows that this is simply not reality.
Also people who point to small-scale communes and say “see? So communism can work!” forget several important things. In a small community (up to about 120 people if I remember correctly), where everybody knows everybody else, economic system is not so important since almost everything is governed by personal relationships. So you could have small scale anarchist commune, theocratic commune, almost anything can be made to work at such small scale.
The problems starts when society grows enough that you don’t know most people and working set of rules and incentives is critical.
The other problem is that all those small scale communes are embedded in larger capitalist society. So even if they are quite dysfunctional and capable only of producing woven quilts and fiery manifestos, the saner part of the society will handle things like manufacturing farm machinery
Ironically, religion turns out to be pretty much the only thing capable of making it work
Ethnonationalism is the only other "secret ingredient" usually left out of the few and far between "success stories" of this sort. Look at the kibbutz which were bastions of militarism and racist hatred of the "backward" natives.
It’s all fun and games till the gulags start popping up
The experience of history.
Where are the examples of successful Communism?
It's fucking moronic, mostly, I think
Mama sed Karl Marx is the devil!
Not the devil, just silly
Propaganda, but also it's dumb.
Communism has no incentive or reward system, so no answer for what happens if your family doesn't work
Americans were warned in the 50s and 60s of subversive hijacking of our culture. It was visible and in our face in the 60s/70s at universities and colleges.
THE 45 COMMUNIST GOALS AS READ INTO THE CONGRESSIONAL RECORD, 1963
CURRENT COMMUNIST GOALS:
Communism- "It doesn't seem as terrible as it's made out to be"
Yeah I suppose- it's not as if over 100 million people were killed this century as a direct result of it and a world war erupted to stop it spreading or anything crazy like that.
I hadn’t looked into the history of it, I just said that after reading a few dumbed down definitions
Why hadn't you been encouraged to look into the history of it during your education? Why weren't you taught about it in school? Why hasn't Hollywood made any movies about it? Why have you never heard of Holodomor? What happened in the Bolshevik Revolution? Russia was a Christian country- were the Bolsheviks? Why is Stalin not considered as poisonous politically as Hitler? Why is the hammer and sickle not a hate symbol? Under what conditions did Hitler come to power? Who writes the history books? Time to begin your research.
It’s interesting, in school it’s almost like we’re expected to already know what it is
“I hadn’t looked into the history of it…”
There’s an old saying, “Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it”. And that’s one of the huge problems, today. We are getting so far removed from so many bad things in history that too many people either don’t know the history and tragedy and/or feel that they’re just “stories”, because they’ve never seen what can/does happen and none of these things have ever effected them. We’re also seeing this with vaccines that have kept diseases and illnesses at bay for decades. But because these things haven’t been real concerns in a very long time, because of the vaccines, too many people now think they’re unnecessary.
Yeah I suppose, it's not as if you are throwing around a debunked figure from a debunked book while ignoring that fact capitalism has killed far more people than that.
Stalin and Mao and Pol Pot and several other communist dictators were mass murderers almost beyond comprehension. Let’s begin there.
Look up the Holodomor famine. That alone killed several millions of Ukrainians. Tankies who suck Stalin’s dick will tell you he was a hero and could do no wrong and will just deflect and use whataboutisms instead of ever confronting the reality of his mass murder. They are STILL finding his mass graves. They want you to think they care about equality and egalitarianism but they will dismiss the mass murder of millions like it means nothing. Just cracking eggs to make an omelette. Any murder their guys commit is justified. Only America and the West can be the big bad imperialist meanies. Any Marxist cocksucker with huge body count is an angel who was misunderstood in their eyes.
Also, state mandated atheism forcing people to abandon their faith isn’t exactly popular with the billions of religious folk on planet earth.
Then there’s the cultural revolution in China. Look up what they had children doing to their parents in the 1960’s in China. Or the killing fields in Cambodia. Or why people risk drowning in boats to get away from Castro for decades. Tankies will tell you that was because of the embargo causing bad economic conditions. Go ask the Cubans and their families who escaped that live in South Florida what they think of communism. It won’t be the glowing endorsement you hear from 20 something disaffected trust fund jackoffs who got their ideology off TikTok.
Then there’s the one party rule. If you like democracy then you’re not going to love communism. Bet on that, chief.
Communism on paper and in practice are two very different things.
Do capitalist countries have body counts? Yes. Have capitalist countries engaged in wars of aggression and other acts of evil worthy of condemnation? Yes. Does capitalism have several flawsand lends itself towards exploitation? Yes. Do right wingers fear monger and exaggerate the threat to manipulate voters? Absolutely. Does this make communism better? No. It’s like trying to cure herpes with AIDS. Both of them suck, one sucks less.
Also, you can be socialist and not be a communist. The USSR never even achieved communism. It was an ideal they aspired to. Communists view socialism as a stepping stone to communism. You know who actually did achieve communism? Israel. Look up what a kibbutz is. It’s literally a commune.
Don’t take my word for it, study this on your own. This is an incredibly detailed and nuanced subject that covers an entire century of world history. Nobody in a Reddit thread can give you a comprehensive education on this, you have to do that for yourself. Read up on other ideologies while you’re at it. The audio books for Marx & Engels are on YouTube. Read Orwell. He was a socialist who wrote Animal Farm warning people of the dangers of totalitarian communism. The book is an analog of Stalin & Trotsky and how replacing the old bad guy with the new bad guy who seduces you is a bad idea.
And I suggest talking to the hordes of refugees of oppressive communist regimes living in the West and taking their word on stuff over internet tankie shitpost slacktivists who whine about this stuff for a hobby. Are there intelligent communists who make good arguments and valid criticisms of America and capitalism? Sure. Will several tankies respond to this post and tell you I’m wrong or I’m a gatekeeper or regurgitate some lame platitudes? Probably.
The world is a rough place for idealists. I’ll leave it at that.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-58340805.amp
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rT_fTYxRotQ
https://victimsofcommunism.org/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor?wprov=sfti1#
Because we have over a hundred years of world history showing us what a bad system it is. Tens of millions died under Communist governments in the USSR, China, North Korea, Cambodia, etc.
Humans are flawed, communism assumes good intentions.
because of the times dictators pretended to be it in order to gain power. communism is antithetical to a dictatorship. it is clear when you look at the history of communism it works until it gets corrupted. so the concept is sound but so far designed in a way which doesn't prevent corruption. many are out there demonizing both socialism and communism because they know it would be the better system if perfected but would be bad for hoarding wealth and power. these days they rebranded feudalism under other names to better facilitate the lie that we are a truly equal civilization. but when you line things up... and start tieing strings from one thing in the past to another you find that the class system is slowly being reestablished by certain parties. propaganda and mass manipulation are at an all time high. nobody in the church even seems to know what is in the religious texts they claim to know anymore. but researchers have determined that jesus would be in favor of communism. the majority of people claiming to live by the bible or other holy book don't actually read themselves. they just trust others to tell them how to think... which if you remember, is how the church in long past ages used to manipulate people since most couldn't read at all. so the religious leaders could say whatever they wanted. these days, adults in the united states are around 12% of the adult population unable to read or have poor reading skills. this is likely by design as well as the attacks on education. stupid people are easy to manipulate. so endless lies and intentional neglect or misinformation is part of the plan. so is the propaganda about how "evil" socialism and communism is. fun fact, much of what makes up the fabric of united states society is socialism. fire departments? socialism.. police? yea socialism too. public parks, social security, roads and other infrastructure, public water systems, public transportation, public schools, the postal service... jesus.. the way they have demonized socialism is astounding and only shows how much progress they have made on dumbing down the people so far.
To be fair, the water system was invented by the Romans and British before the World Wars.
I get it you're anti capitalism, but it's hard to read when you don't capitalize anything. I feel like this is somehow symbolic.
Look at wiki historical examples of countries that became communist. What adopting those policies did to their currencies, economies, agricultural famines, mass starvations, marketplace disruptions, diminished industrial outputs, worsening govt corruption, poor qualities of life and bleak future outlook among its own citizens (who mostly fled at the first opportunity btw).
Despite each country implementing communist policies with slightly different approaches, they ALL suffered an eerily similar fate.
It’s because communist ideals, however utopian they are portrayed in writing, are fundamentally flawed in actual practice.
Communism is bad because people have no freedom. No freedom of speech. No free press. No freedom of religion. Any perceived slight against the govt is a crime. People are encouraged to snitch on one another, including family members.
Also people can’t own anything. The government owns all property, all businesses. They tell you where to work, where to live. You have no say. No chance to better yourself. You just toil away doing the same mind numbing work day in and day out.
Complain. You go to prison. Try to escape. You get shot. It’s pure evil.
Have you ever had to do a project in group? 1 person does most of the work, 2 kinda help and 1 does literally zero. That's communism.
A lot of it comes down to misunderstanding. Like the USSR called themselves communist but didn't meet any of the criteria for being a communist society. Russia has never been a classless society. China calls itself communist but it also has never been a classless society.
Not to mention there's more than one type. Marxism is not the same as Leninism or Stalinism or Trotskyism or Maoism. When people refer to communism as a violent dictatorship, they're only thinking of Stalinism and Maoism. Neither of which followed the idealisms of Marxism.
You know your comment is contradictory, right? Like how can you say it's like nailing jelly to a wall if we can't say what it amounts to lol
Interesting metaphor though
Generally the people who want to rule the world through power will abuse it. Republic democratic capitalism sorta makes it a free market and in theory is supposed to let the people decide what the rules are. The “only” things that destroys capitalism are cartels, monopolies, and propaganda which unfortunately we have a lot in the USA disguising itself as big business. Capitalism isn’t perfect but it’s raised the poverty gap significantly across the world by virtue of simply being able to make so much stuff. Communism so far is not great at pumping out product and has a reputation for being adopted by psychopathic dictators
Because a large portion of America has a fictionalized view of what Communism (and Socialism) actually is.
Trillions of dollars worth of propaganda over the years
It’s difficult for people to be altruistic and systems remain so.
Every example of communism we had tends to be clouded with human error (greed / competition).
The US also used anti-communism as a campaign and that lingers. Y’all are very susceptible to propaganda and hate each other judging by Trump…the history makes sense. Ig though to be fair communism was globally hated by the Brits etc. also.
Socialism is known to be a good framework, many countries incorporate socialism.
Communism is not a bad idea, it’s just hard for people to implement truly. Lots of international pressure to preform as well because the naysayers - so leaders of the past have gone too far into that politics and not on the helping their people.
Social Ideologies explained with cows - for anyone who needs a reminder :)
The answer is History. It doesn't matter how nice the idea is if every time it's been tried the result has been millions of innocent lives lost and widespread poverty.
Ask the people who flee Communist countries to come to the USA.
Red scare propaganda, and most "communist" countries being abject failures due to so many reasons you could write a book about each one.
People in the comments seem to be confusing communism with socialism.
Communism has been hated as a straw man for most mainstream political movements ever since the fall of the Tsar. It's one of the most useful default enemies in politics, used by the Nazis, the Capitalists, and by modern day Christofascists, all over the world.
Truth be told, most people never understood what communism is, and still don't. That's why they hate it. Since no one knows what it is, it can be anything, whatever people fear the most.
It unrealistically assumes that all people are willing to work hard for the wellbeing of a community, forgetting that greed and selfishness is a motivating factor for many.
Well that and all the attempts to put it into practice failed. Take Soviet Russia as an example, they referred to their system as "communist", but they never reached what Marx described as communism - they just aimed for it. There's a lot of confusion about the label: do we mean theoretical communism or the attempts to put it into practice? Then there was the mass starvation, gulags, joining wars for ideological purposes (while claiming that war is perpetuated by capitalists aiming to make a profit) and the famous bread lines along with rationed food and long wait times for luxury goods like a fridge or a car.
Don't get me wrong, there were plenty of upsides to it too. Better public transport, free healthcare and education as well as decent standard of working and living for many. My family managed to live comfortably in "communist" Poland. But it's a double edged sword. My grandfather was a member of a communist party and the whole family still remembers outright celebrating when he brought home bananas and chewing gum from abroad...
Communism involves restructuring the entire functioning of a country’s economy. Naturally this can cause some friction from people who didn’t want to change the entire way they work and receive goods. Additionally, after World War Two the United States, the Soviet Union, and Communist China all fought against each other in three-way “proxy wars”. These wars were more or less conflicts within conflicts to determine what system would be the dominant economic form in that country (:American capitalist, soviet, Chinese communist). There is a lot of bad blood in the United States about people trying to adopt ideologies that we have already “defeated”. Additionally in countries ravaged by Cold War proxy wars people tend to have much different views about communism than those in the United States, with some peoples looking more favorably on one system than another due to their recent histories
I lived in a Communist country for two years. Yes, it was that terrible. Communism has a legacy of brutal police states with no regard for human rights, economic realities, the arts, or the environment. If you read Marx, it looks good on paper; he did do a good job defining many of the problems of capitalism. Unfortunately, the suggested solutions to these problems sucked ass. Millions suffered and died as a result.
A "dictatorship of the proletariat" is still a dictatorship, and it sucks to live in a dictatorship.
The goal of communism is a classless society, but there will always be those who have just a little more money than others, a little more power. How do you explain that?
1 missing reply
It's a very, very, VERY idealistic and utopian idea that can never happen in real life. It's just way too flimsy in its foundation, and requires everyone involved to be "good" people that have no desire for control. However, the reality is that humans are a mixed-bag of both good and bad, so you'll have bad people eventually banding up and deceiving good people long enough to become dictators. It happens EVERY time communism is supposed to happen.