My father had an incident as a result of which he had a skull fracture. Now he is in intensive care and the doctors told me that he has very little chance.And they decided to be disconnected from the Artificial respiration . What happened if don’t agree? I’m the only one who wa in touch with my father. Thank you🙏
But they don’t just take people off without talking to you about it. And in both instances I was involved in, they also prolonged it for a few days because the family asked them to.
This may sound rude, but....did the gained few days make any change to the outcome?
It’s a fair question, but no. It didn’t for the patient. But for the family to have just a few more days to come to terms and try to accept it better.
Yeah, that's what I was expecting.
I experienced the same 10 years ago with my FIL. Rushed in to surgery for accute stomach pain, died the next day.
In between he got into shock, blood loss, heavy operation, etc
We got the choice the next day. My gf was adamant to pull the plug, I couldn't fathom what she was saying. They were giving us an extra chance!
Later I realised the doctors knew he was done. Even had he come out, he would have been disabled for the rest of his life. It was the best for everybody, but it was nice of the doctors to give us some sense of control over the horrible inevitable end result.
I‘m sorry about your FIL. It’s hard when people “just” die and I hope you have been able to give it a good place within your memory.
Thanks, all good, yeah. Comes with the flows of life. Undetected aneurysms suck balls though.
The brother of my brother’s girlfriend just completely suddenly died last year, at 25 years old or so. Went to the hospital for something banal like stomach pain as well, I don’t remember what exactly. He was chilling in his hospital bed, went to grab some water from the sink and then suddenly just died from a 30 cm long aortic rupture.
Absolutely awful.
Yep, sounds fairly similar.
Hope you're okay.
I am definitely okay. I didn’t even know him. The family though, they are still devastated. They pretend to be okay but they aren’t really. They are moving on though, as one does.
For the patient they don’t, but for the family they sometimes do. In certain religions stopping treatment is considered not acceptable and this means the family often needs more time to adjust to reality. This time is usually given to them by the staff.
I imagine that depends on the amount of free beds in the ICU.
Could also be the case that relatives need to travel to the patient one last time, however bad shape the patient is in. Having a physical closure like that can be a significant benefit for the relatives for their grief and recovery. Sadly, our death is not only about ourselves.
I fully get what you say.
For me personally, I wonder if that still would be a reason to in my head. I know that some years back I still would have considered that thought more. Nowadays, with age passing, having lost a few too much, seeing the waste of lives globally that nobody gives a shit about... I don't know.
Meh, sorry, rambling. Nothing as personal as death. Just like that other redditor, wishing you a fine remainder of your day. 👍
I see where you are coming from and I personally believe that if someone close to me was in that position I dont think I would make the request to extend their life just so I can say goodbye. Then again, I havent been put into that position (and I hope I wont be!) and I understand why someone else may have the need to make such request.
I am moreso disturbed by the idea of someone else whether that is the doctor, relatives or the lawmaker in general having the final say on whether to prolong someones life or not. Then again, that is not much different than providing medical services or operating on someone when they are not conscious.
Edit: likewise, have a nice one!
Geh, I'd better not say how a physical check up just weeks before, a delayed and "thorough" investigation in the ER and a delayed surgeon all missed what seemed quite obvious after the fact.
Kinda lost trust in the knowledge and experience of others, but all three who messed up are still better at finding an aneurysm then me. So what can you do? 🤷
The family decided to pursue some money and got some, none much happier because of it and the hospital didn't learn. I'm a bit more verbal in an own issue I'm undergoing. Life goes on.
The sign above the cemetery entrance where he is resting says "Today me, tomorrow you" in Latin.
Try and grab the day.
Goddamit this thread has me spiralling. Good night! I say. 🙃
I am sorry to hear about what you had to go through. I hope you & the family feels better soon! Best wishes, and thanks for the nice exchange!
Thank you 
Nothing helpful to add OP, just sending some love your way
I didn't know this, this is harsh...
Don't forget it's the same doctors that allow people to self delete. It's these doctors that allow a depressed person to move on to the afterlife.
Dutch doctors are of the worst ones by far. First of all they will tell you that you have nothing without even taking a proper look, they will prescribe you painkillers for literally everything. And you say that they come to this decision after discussing it with their specialist peers. What good is discussing it when they don't really care about the patients life? There have been many instances where people survive in the end.
This might not be what you are intending, but you are criticizing the doctor by saying the decision is horrible. The situation is horrible, we don't know enough to judge the decision.
No, I’m not. Horrible says something about the decision, not about who makes the decision. And in my book, a decision about stopping life support is always a horrible decision, regardless of who has to make it. That doesn’t make it a bad decision either, as sometimes it’s the only decision that can be made. But that doesn’t make it any less horrible. And I’m yet to encounter the first doctor who tells me that they don’t find it difficult to make such decisions.
Sounds horrible, but I'm not surprised, according to the Dutch mentality, the "experts" know better than your close ones, even than yourself, what is in your own interest, and they can even decide you should die... I suppose they don't allow you to transfer the patient abroad either, even if you're willing to pay for all the costs, but that is what I would desperately try.
Of course they allow transfer of patients, when the patient is stable enough to be transferred. Why would they not?
And the Dutch mentality is absolutely not about experts always knowing best. But brain death is brain death, no matter how you look at it. By far the majority of Dutch, when asked, would not prefer to stay alive in a hospital bed just for the sake of it, slowly dying from painful complications, once they are beyond that point of no return.
My bad then, I thought it's like in the UK, where there were several cases where doctors denied the transfer of stable, but hopeless (according to them) patients abroad for specialized/experimental treatment, in world renowned hospitals who accepted their case... Because they "knew better".
I wonder if you are talking about the child who had such irreparable brain damage that it started to necrotise in his own head, yet the parents wanted to somehow transport him for some mystical "experimental treatment".
Hit the front pages and it was totally ludicrous.
When things make the national news, that’s usually because they are newsworthy, which means that even in the UK situations like that aren’t an everyday occurrence (while many people get admitted with serious brain injury on a daily basis).
Or you could accept and allow your loved one to pass with dignity.
If there are reputable doctors/hospitals willing to take their case, and say there might be a chance to save them, who are you, or anyone else besides the patient or close relatives, to deny access to a transfer? Only collectivist monsters think like that.
I don't appreciate your namecalling. Just because someone has a different view to yours. Sheesh.
I'm extremely sorry to hear you are going for such a difficult time. Sending you lot of love and strength, and I wish I had answer to your question... But I don't. If anything, however, feel free to message me. Keep it up!
Thank you!
Wish you lot of strength in the coming days. Realize that extending artificial life support is not going to bring back your father and perhaps make him suffer longer than necessary.
Just want to say I’m so sorry, my best to you and your loved ones in this difficult time ❤️
I'm so sorry you have to experience this. If your father cannot breathe on his own he will most likely never recover. And left on a respirator he will most likely succumb to pneumonia. Wich is not an easy way to go. Ask the hospital for support. They should have a nurse that can answer any questions you have about your fathers condition and possible outcomes. And even if your father is in a coma, you should still take time to sit with him, and talk to him while you can.
You can ask for a second opinion. A new doctor will independently evaluate your father and give their opinion. But be prepared that they will most likely come to the same conclusion that your father won’t ever wake up again.
doctors aren’t allowed to perform useless medical care.
It’s a very thoughtout decision from a doctor to decide to stop treatment, they only do that if there’s no chance for improvement and the patient is suffering without reason. The best you can do now is talk with the doctor about the end of his life and how you wanna say goodbye.
My condolences for your loss
🙏 Is possible to ask for a second opinion a doctor from another country? Thank you
That is possible, but make sure to call your insurance company first, a second opinion from a foreign doctor isn’t always covered
And it may be a bit difficult to find someone willing to come all the way here on such short notice, considering your father doesn’t have long.
What you’re doing is a normal reaction, you don’t wanna say goodbye to your dad yet, it’s so sudden and it’s impossible to cope… in the hospital you can talk with a maatschappelijk werker through this, cause it might be time to let go so you can start grieving… denial is very normal in a situation like this, but please ask in the hospital for some guidance for you through this difficult time
That wont magically make him better, stop his suffering as early as you can
Can’t help you with your question, just here to wish you all the strength in the upcoming times.
I wanted to join this comment - I am so sorry to hear that OP. Wishing you and your family all the best 💖
As a family you always have a right to have a second opinion. You can inform the hospital you want a second opinion. Then you can call around for a doctor that can help you, this will be hard in the weekend. Your fathers insurance can be of help. When you find a doctor he will request the file.
To be honest i do not know how achivable.this is in a short term. But you aways do have the right to a second opinion.
Also the hospital should have a maatschappelijke werker. They should be able to help you navigate the rules and also get emotional support in this dificult time.
You are facing a very though decision. When my MIL died we luckly had a DNR and she had left instructions on what she did and didnt want.
Just my 5c but ask : what kind of quality of life would you father have if you prolong treatment. What % of his life would he have left? Would you feel better with physically having your father while he has the mental capability of a new born?
Artificial respirator is an extremely painful ordeal for the patient. I pray for you and your family. The doctors in intensive care in the Netherlands are extremely competent, i would trust their judgment
You should always be a bit skeptical of any (any!) professional.
Everybody can make mistakes. Most people go either wih the easiest route or the route they know more, especially if they do the same thing everyday.
If my parents listened to the first (and second, and third) doctor they went to, I wouldn't have been born. All of them wanted to sterilize my mother a couple of years before I was conceived.
My mother has still her uterus and she has no longstanding problems associates with it. All the do tors but one went with the "default", easy way.
Pumping someone full of paracetamol is not “competent” enough. If the family wants the person kept alive, who are they to say no? They shouldn’t be legally allowed to say no to that. It’s their job to help someone in need and it seems all they want to is get this person out so they can do it to the next like and assembly line of death. No. Put the man in a room, give him morphine and a respirator and see if he wakes up. It has happened before and will happen again. People wake up all the time from stuff like this, they just need time to heal slowly an a respirator does that. Just offing someone because it looks like something doesn’t mean it is.
They don't give someone paracetamol for serious conditions. You are exaggerating
Um, yes they do. I have a friend who has cancer, she is going through chemo and in a ton of pain because the chemo is making her have very severe reactions. The doctors orders were take 8 paracetamol instead of 6 a day, literally wouldn’t give her ANY pain medication…
Thats indeed the first step of the "pain ladder" we have to follow to increase efficacy and reduce addiction/dependance. Paracetemol is the option with a high efficacy and little to no side effects. I find it very hard to believe however that they would not consider heavier options in a cancer patient with a lot of pain, in the GP practice I work at alone we have tons of cancer patients on tramadol, oxycodon, fentanyl patches, etc.
They gave her nothing, she was crying to them to please give something for the pain. Her whole body hurts and she is bloated completely. They refuse. They say just take paracetamol.
Okay, then let her get a second opinion. Don't go spewing this crap on a post of someone with a dying father.
Only saying my experiences here, mr toxic
Regardless of whether heavier pain meds are warranted or not (I am not a doctor nor know the situation), you are undercutting your own point quite a lot when saying they are refusing to give her pain meds, while they are literally telling her to take paracetamol (which is a pain med).
Lol.
Man she was told to take a pain reducing medicine when complaining about pain? What a shocker
I really hope you people never have any sort of REAL pain and need something that’s not bullshit. Paracetamol is for a freakin headache, NOT CANCER TREATMENT
Paracetamol works for the whole body, even if you cut your finger it can help numb it.
Of course the family want to save the live of the patiënt, so do the doctors, but brain death is death, and doctors can't bring people back from the death, regardless of howmuch their family hope or think they can.
Very sorry OP
I am sorry to hear that. I do not have an advice only I can say be strong 🙁
Se ding you a big hug in these difficult times 🙏🏻
OP I can understand how you want to do everything you can to save your father. As far as I know you there is a right to a second opinion. However, if they told you there is no chance, getting the second opinion is highly unlikely to give a different result. This will sound very harsh, but if you choose to fight the decision, you may be spending the last hours or days with your father fighting, instead of being with him and coming to terms with the inevitable, and saying your last goodbyes. I'm not telling you which one to choose, some people will still choose the fight so they can be sure they have done absolutely everything, and as I'm not a doctor I can't say 100% sure they are right... But at least consider how maybe saying your last goodbyes in a peaceful setting will honour him more and eventually, help you process this immense grief.
I'm sorry you are dealing with this.
My husband had a severe TBI (traumatic brain injury) earlier this year. To the point that he has had a large part of his skull removed and his brain looked like a mushroom coming out of it. Even though the doctors looked and sounded extremely worried about how he would end up being, there was never talk of stopping care. Head injuries are so horrendous.
Maybe look at a second opinion if you don't feel that the doctor is correct but also prepare that the outcome could be precisely what you do not want to hear.
I hope you find the answers you need, and I wish you strength during this time.
I am sure they have talked to you about the prognosis of his condition, but if he is unable to breath by himself, he won’t gain that after time anymore. So he would be on the respirator and tube feeding from then on. He will be physically in this world, but the chances of him still interacting with you are non existent.
There are very few care places that offer this type of nursing after the hospital. Sometimes people do the care at home, with nurses regularly checking in on them for max 4 times a day. I’m not sure if you are willing to do that for him. I don’t have any experience or knowledge on going abroad.
OP, I've got nothing constructive to add, just sending love. It's a terrible thing you're facing.
Would it help to consider what you'd want for yourself if you were in his position?
From what I’ve read is that it’s the doctor’s responsibility after consulting with the family.
But you could ask for support like extra information. The hospital provided this when my fil was dying.
Hi mijn broer had precies hetzelfde 4 weken coma en ze gaven ook aan dat hij niet wakker zou worden, 2 dagen nadat ze me moeder voor de keus hebben gesteld werd hij wakker. Hou hoop❤️✨
🙏🫂
❤️❤️❤️
I would listen to the doctors. If it is deemed there is no chance of recovery, then that’s how it is.
This is one of the best countries in the world for end of life decision making. They have fought and debated these challenges better than my own….canada…and certainly better than the states. If you are worried that your own decision making is compromised…say that…and ask for help.
If the chances of recovery are close to 0, treatment will discontinue here. The costs to continue are too expensive for something close of a miracle.
If you have the money you can privately fund something, but not in public hospitals. Keep in mind that they don't discontinue treatment if they believe there is still a chance. So, yes, there are stories about these miracles, but these are very very rare. I believe, if I recall correctly, that the royal family extended the treatment of the brother of the current king in a private clinic after being involved in an avalanche. But to no avail.
Edit: Im sorry to hear of your situation. Wish you all the strength to deal with this situation.
That's not always true though. It heavily depends on the specific situation I have learned the hard way. In my family we had a situation where the patient was beyond recovery due to a 'medical accident' and once her heart gave out there were still attempts to reanimate. At the time I didn't even understand why they tried as it was so obviously useless regardless of the success of the reanimation. The futility was recorded in an inquiry afterwards.
Cost is usually not a factor in these decisions.
In the Netherlands quality of life weighs heavy when making medical decisions. There might be a small chance someone survives, but if they’re no longer capable of interaction or moving around, then there is no quality of life left.
This is a discussion you should have with the anaesthesiologist at the ICU. They can inform you about the options and the consequences. In the end it’s up to you to tell the doctor what you consider to be the best option. They’ll go with that, within reason. Usually the family agrees to the proposed course of action.
As far as I understand it’s ultimately up to the doctors to make these decisions, after closely involving the family of the patient. If you need some extra days to process the situation the doctors will be accommodating, but the doctors will decide.
That’s why I added “within reason”. The doctor has to liaise with the patient or their lawful representatives. If the family wants something that’s not feasible, the doctor indeed has the final say.
Had the same happen to my dad…. Scull fracture emergeny surgery exept it happened in belgium 3 weeks enduced coma only to be in vegetative state for 6 months more , not the answer you want but let him go its for the better how ever hard it is …. Its been years for me and still struggle with the desicion
if docters say he is beyond help he is not capable to stay alive or already deceased and kept ‘alive’ by machines. I am sorry for you it is a bitter situation. I really am..
Did you ask for a second opinion? Ask private hospitals. I can highly recommend the Acıbadem hospital in Istanbul. Though this might not be covered by your insurance..
I hope everything its ok
Let him go, he'll be free and happy in his new life up there.. He'll still be with you as well 😇😇
I am very sorry for your loss
Tell the doctor you wil crush his skull if he doesn’t cooperate. It worked for me. 🫡😮
My great grand mother had a serious condition that left her paralysed. Doctors said she won't make it and it's best to leave her to die because she will he a vegetable.
My mom and grand mom cared for her, washes her, fed and talked to her every day. After six months she got up and started to clean "it's dirty in here" she said.
Don't trust doctors with a life of a relative
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Yeah, there are also stories of people waking up after a long coma. The reason that such stories exist, is because they are very very unlikely to occur.
I think the treatment of some rare disease in a 4 Yr old can't rly be compared to actual acute head trauma.
Unfortunately he can’t be transferred at the moment
Bullshit.
Just ask a second opinion
Holy shit netherlands are this f up? Im so sorry i hope you do well, your father is at peace
Its not really f up to take someone off life support when that’s the only thing keeping them alive. Im very sorry for op but there is no point in keeping his father “alive” when there is 0 chance of recovery.
My mother and grandmother made the choice to stop treatment for my grandfather. He had a massive stroke and would be paralyzed on one side and unable to talk for the rest of his life. This is not a life my grandfather would have wanted so they decided to stop the treatment
There isnt 0 chance, plus i think what people want from life is very personal so your own experiences dont really reflect. Id much rather be paralyzed than dead...
You’d want to be stuck in a hospital bed for the rest of your life, unable to leave and a big big burden to the rest of your healthy family? Doesn’t sound so great if you ask me.
Yep. Sounds far better than the void.
That's truly messed up, but that's the Dutch cold hearted. At the end of the day you're next of kin so if you wanted to keep him connected, it should have been your choice not theirs unless he requested otherwise in a will.
Contact your father's doctor? Maybe go to talk to someone in person rather than asking in a reddit sub?
But the person known as your father is dead. You are holding on to meat. It’s hard, but you need to be an adult and accept that death is real.
That could be said a little bit more respectfully
Reddit has become enshittified. I joined back in 2006, nearly two decades ago, when it was a hub of free speech and user-driven dialogue. Now, it feels like the pursuit of profit overshadows the voice of the community. The introduction of API pricing, after years of free access, displays a lack of respect for the developers and users who have helped shape Reddit into what it is today. Reddit's decision to allow the training of AI models with user content and comments marks the final nail in the coffin for privacy, sacrificed at the altar of greed. Aaron Swartz, Reddit's co-founder and a champion of internet freedom, would be rolling in his grave.
The once-apparent transparency and open dialogue have turned to shit, replaced with avoidance, deceit and unbridled greed. The Reddit I loved is dead and gone. It pains me to accept this. I hope your lust for money, and disregard for the community and privacy will be your downfall. May the echo of our lost ideals forever haunt your future growth.
Not comparing it to a sack of meat maybe? But it’s not worth my time to discuss this with cold hearted people 🤷🏼♂️
Reddit has become enshittified. I joined back in 2006, nearly two decades ago, when it was a hub of free speech and user-driven dialogue. Now, it feels like the pursuit of profit overshadows the voice of the community. The introduction of API pricing, after years of free access, displays a lack of respect for the developers and users who have helped shape Reddit into what it is today. Reddit's decision to allow the training of AI models with user content and comments marks the final nail in the coffin for privacy, sacrificed at the altar of greed. Aaron Swartz, Reddit's co-founder and a champion of internet freedom, would be rolling in his grave.
The once-apparent transparency and open dialogue have turned to shit, replaced with avoidance, deceit and unbridled greed. The Reddit I loved is dead and gone. It pains me to accept this. I hope your lust for money, and disregard for the community and privacy will be your downfall. May the echo of our lost ideals forever haunt your future growth.
Why sugarcoat it? The guy is brain dead. OP needs to not be so emotional.
Find help. Your lack of empathy is concerning.
Am I wrong? The guy is dead. He’s not going to recover. The doctors are right.
Not be emotional when your father is dying? What the hell are emotions for then?
When my father died (1974), he said “I’m dying. Make sure you help your mom”.
He died 4 days later.
It wasn’t sad. He knew it was coming.
Your utter lack of empathy is disturbing.
Why? Am I wrong? The doctors are telling OP the truth. He’s not willing to admit it.
You can be right, sure. But the way you use your words make you look like you lack empathy
Brian8544 said it perfectly. If I were in OPs shoes, came to you for support and you expressed yourself that way, our friendship would be over.
You can be right, or you can be kind. Being both is an art and one you either haven't learned or don't bother showing online.
Bro, even my (bery Dutch) autistic ass knows your wording is rude. OP has to accept the fact that their father is beyond salvation, and should instead focus on saying goodbye in whatever way suits them best, yes. But sheeshkebab, talking about being bags of meat in this case is just heartless. There's a time and place for everything, and this discussion is not welcome here right now.
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I’m really sorry that you have to go through this.
Doctors in NL are not allowed to extent treatment when there isn’t any hope for recovery or improvement anymore. Therefor, they are allowed to take the decision to stop treatment, even without your consent.
You could ask for a second opinion, but that likely won’t change the situation. Dutch doctors usually discuss critical patients with their specialist peers extensively, before reaching horrible decisions like these.