I've seen a lot of people claiming Itachi was an "abusive" brother who mercilessly killed his entire family and clan cause he was a "Puppet" for Konoha. Later joining the Akatsuki as a spy but was completely useless during that time only Later becoming useful by "lending" Sasuke his mangekyo sharingan after he kicked the bucket💀
Indeed.
He’s 13 and already traumatized several times over, with more weight and pressure than anyone should have at that age, put by adults into a terrible position. The massacre is by far his most defensible act honestly. He was a manipulated child
. . . It’s what he does after, as an adult in the main series, which not only makes him an idiot and an asshole, but also a poorly written character
Interesting how Itachi was old enough to "reason" with Uchihas about the coup.
Where's him questioning the government about anti-uchihas policies?
kid Itachi was forced into being the clan’s spy with no ask of what he wants first. They quite literally put him in that position
Idk man, if the government tells me to spy on my family, I'm telling the whole shit to my parents.
His actions weren’t morally just but he was a kid put in a really bad situation cause all the adults on both sides failed him
Kishimoto didn't really focus much on what you're saying. His focus was much more on how to wank him. And I don't think it would be controversial to say that he's the most glazed character in the show.
If his story was only like what you say, I would have liked him as a character.
was old enough to “reason” with Uchiha’s about the coup
Which only boiled down to him saying “father please do peace negotiations first”. Not exactly him completely defending everything Konoha did to the clan there nor is it really that complex for a 13 year old to say
if the government tells me to spy on my family, I’m telling the whole shit to my parents
And his parents were the ones who made him a spy first. He also didn’t tell them because he knew it would immediately start the coup, he was hiding stuff from Konoha too.
He would’ve never talked about the coup plans (which he knew from the beginning of his time as Anbu) if not for Shisui’s death and Danzo revealing he already knew everything to Itachi in private
Kishimoto didn’t really focus much on what you’re saying
Hiruzen literally blames himself for all of Itachi’s suffering
Hashirama outright says what Itachi did was a “darkness” of the village and Itachi himself says he deserves to die for what he did. Also saying as he disappeared that there might’ve been another way through love
Also Itachi’s entire ideology (also hashi’s) is taken by Sasuke to its logical extreme and at the end of the day Naruto won the final fight. Proving building bonds was better than the ideology that led to the Uchiha massacre
And his parents were the ones who made him a spy first. He also didn’t tell them because he knew it would immediately start the coup, he was hiding stuff from Konoha too.
But he told konoha about the uchiha coup? Which made things worse?
Also Itachi’s entire ideology (also hashi’s) is taken by Sasuke to its logical extreme
Ah shit here we go again.
Itachi is the one who took hashirama's ideology to extreme by doing anything to protect konoha.
And no, sasuke ideology eos is nothing like hashirama/Itachi.
Sasuke referred to how Itachi took all the hatred. And he wanted to do the same. That doesn't mean they had same ideology.
Having something in common doesn't mean ideology is same, because it is a set of beliefs. By your logic, Nagato and Itachi have same ideology?
Itachi slaughtered one side of party to avoid conflict and save Leaf. While sasuke wanted to be common enemy of both side of conflict. Itachi didn't want any change in the shinobi system, while sasuke wanted a change. Itachi was a dog of leaf till the end. Sasuke didn't intend to serve any government and didn't have that will of fire.
Hiruzen literally blames himself for all of Itachi’s suffering
Hashirama outright says what Itachi did was a “darkness”
My argument was his glazing, which creates a problem and sets a biased narrative.
And just so you know, darkness doesn't necessarily mean a bad decision. Someone can believe something is morally wrong but necessary. (Bombing of Germany for ex). And yes the series went great lengths to call it necessary, so much that the other option which Edo Itachi said was telling the political conflict to a 7 yr old and expecting any change.
And how conveniently you didn't mention Kakashi's reaction. "If sasuke knows the truth about Itachi, why doesn't he respect his wishes and serve leaf?".
Proving building bonds was better than the ideology that led to the Uchiha massacre
So why didn't leaf build bonds with Uchihas, instead of segregating them? Why hasn't leaf publically apologised then? Why the two elders who advocated for oppression and genocide still in power kept by Kakashi, Naruto?
And how would Sasuke's revolution will lead to a massacre of innocent civilians and children?.
but he told Konoha about the Uchiha coup? Which made things worse
Do you just intentionally skip the next sentence? Shisui died and Danzo has a whole scene in the novels having a convo with Itachi that HE ALREADY KNOWS about the coup. The information Itachi was withholding from the council was no longer under his control. Danzo could spill the beans at any moment and made it clear he had spies in the clan already before Itachi even became an Anbu
Itachi had the illusion that he had control and now it was obvious he didn’t after that scene with Danzo + shock of Shisui’s death. Him revealing the truth was hoping for Hiruzen to find a solution (which Hiruzen said he would)
Itachi is the one who took hashirama’s ideology to the extreme
Sasuke said Itachi was the one who most agreed with hashirama’s ideology. Not me.
Sasuke’s ideology is nothing like hashirama/Itachi
You can read Sasuke’s entire thesis about his revolution. The one where he directly says that Itachi’s only mistake was leaving his little brother alive, a mistake Sasuke wouldn’t repeat with Naruto
I said Sasuke took Itachi’s ideology to its extreme. That’s what I mean. Itachi took on the hatred of Konoha & Sasuke in sake of resolving the Uchiha coup conflict
Sasuke wants to take on the hatred of the entire world in order to solve the corruption in the ninja system. It’s just Itachi on a much larger scale
Itachi wasn’t in the position to make great change like Sasuke wanted to. We know for a fact Itachi dreamed of becoming the strongest ninja and hokage to force all other ninjas to give up their ways. That’s the first things we learn in the first Itachi novel and in the manga he talks about how he only relied on his own strength to get things done.
That’s literally the same as Sasuke’s whole goal but Sasuke is in a much better position to fulfill it unlike Itachi was
went to great lengths to call it necessary
No it doesn’t or Danzo would not have been the one responsible for taking shisui’s eye and ruining Itachi & Shisui’s original plan to bring peace.
Danzo would not have died like a dog hated by every other character. Nor would Hiruzen blame himself for giving Danzo too much leeway as the Leaf’s “darkness”
mention Kakashi’s reaction
Why would I? He doesn’t say the Uchiha massacre was morally correct but as a Konoha citizen himself of course he’s gonna look at it from Konoha’s perspective
We know canonically if the village knew the truth, the Uchiha name would’ve been tarnished. The common villagers would not see the massacre as some horrible act in response to the coup. We know how they treated Kakashi’s dad and the jinchuriki already
so why didn’t the leaf build bonds with Uchiha’s instead of segregating them
This part really confuses me. Why are you thinking Naruto’s answer to fixing the ninja system’s corruption should’ve been held by Konoha back before Naruto came to that realization?
The whole point of the massacre is it is a symbol of what’s wrong with the ninja world itself. Danzo is quite literally the representative of Konoha’s wrongdoing. The guy who wanted to control and chain Naruto up but couldn’t cause Naruto became too popular after the pain invasion
You think that guy is supposed to be aligned morally with Naruto?
The elders have power cause of their connection to the Damiyo. They can’t be removed for that reason, same with the elders in the hidden sand that wished Gaara would stay dead in the first arc and called the village’s love for him a “fad”.
The elders can’t actually do anything that impactful besides bicker and annoy the Kages. Tsunade put them in their place already and the Uchiha massacre happened cause of Danzo’s power over the Anbu. The elders are just old assholes, like any normal politician except they don’t have any considerable power besides some influence on the damyio. But Shikamaru Shinden already shows Naruto address that part
Do you just intentionally skip the next sentence? Shisui died and Danzo has a whole scene in the novels having a convo with Itachi that HE ALREADY KNOWS about the coup. The information Itachi was withholding from the council was no longer under his control
Who do you think told leaf about uchiha coup plans? It was obviously an uchiha.
Sasuke said Itachi was the one who most agreed with hashirama’s ideology. Not me.
When did I say Itachi didn't agree with hashirama's ideology? I literally said this to what you replied to.
I said Sasuke took Itachi’s ideology to its extreme. That’s what I mean. Itachi took on the hatred of Konoha & Sasuke in sake of resolving the Uchiha coup conflict
That doesn't mean their ideologies are same?
Itachi literally ethnic cleansed uchihas leaving one survivor.
When did sasuke plann to ethnic cleanse?
You can read Sasuke’s entire thesis about his revolution. The one where he directly says that Itachi’s only mistake was leaving his little brother alive, a mistake Sasuke wouldn’t repeat with Naruto
That doesn't mean their ideologies are same?
Sasuke's point was how bonds are a burden.
Again, Itachi was a servant of leaf and had will of fire. Sasuke didn't. Itachi didn't plan to bring any change. Sasuke did. Itachi commited a genocide including killing civilians, children. Sasuke never intended to. Having a common belief doesn't mean same ideologies. You're really oversimplifying it.
Why would I? He doesn’t say the Uchiha massacre was morally correct by as a Konoha citizen himself of course he’s gonna look at it from Konoha’s perspective
That is the problem though.
In the manga, we didn't get a proper uchiha perspective from an uchiha who was killed in the genocide. It was a biased narrative.
And yes, Kakashi is shown to be wise by the narrative. People like these giving statements like these, is what I'm calling the problem. Obviously, in a literal sense, you would be correct. But I'm more talking about manipulation from the media.
Why weren't uchihas revived and their views were heard then? Kishimoto revived irrelevant characters but couldn't revive some uchihas to show their perspective? Either do this or don't make people like Kakashi give statements like that. Because it shows bias.
It's pretty evident kishimoto was glorifying itachi hard and trying to make him as sympathasible and likeable as possible.
The whole point of the massacre is it is a simple of what’s wrong with the ninja world itself. Danzo is quite literally the representative of Konoha’s wrongdoing
But the whole konoha government sanctioned uchiha oppression though?
The elders have power cause of their connection to the Damiyo
Which manga page?
And by your logic, we shouldn't punish anyone because they're related to monarchs? Is this the change Naruto was talking about? Not holding people accountable in his own government because they're the root cause of problem? And forgiving everyone? Upholding feudalism and authoritarianism?
Who do you think told leaf about Uchiha coup plans?
HUH I’m guessing you haven’t read the novels at all. Danzo had some rando Uchiha in the police force that had no family nor a sharingan killed.
He was replaced by two Anbu brothers that have face surgery to impersonate him. Taking turns infiltrating the meetings. This hint is thrown in Itachi’s face when he first joins the Anbu (“13 outside, 2 in” (I’m paraphrasing)
Here’s the wiki links to the Anbu brothers if you don’t believe me:
https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Gozu_(Root)
https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Mezu
Danzo knew everything cause of them. Danzo didn’t tell Hiruzen nor the elders yet. Itachi told them after Shisui’s death and his convo with Danzo. Understand?
when did Sasuke plan to ethnic cleanse on side
The tailed beasts. They would be extinct and Sasuke wanted to permanently kill them all
Again from Sasuke’s perspective, he said Itachi’s flaw was not finishing the ethnic cleansing lol
Itachi didn’t plan to bring any change
He did when he was younger as hokage. He wanted to bring world peace by being the strongest to ever live.
You’re ignoring that Itachi didn’t just do it out of loyalty. He did it cause of what he experienced in the 3rd war, his pacifism twisting into “ends justify the means”.
If he was strong enough to kill anyone that gets in his way and force everyone to agree with him. He would’ve as proven by his inner monologue in his convo with Danzo and what he was thinking when taking the Chunin exams
The fundamental difference is Sasuke is strong enough to do so and doesn’t have limitations like worrying about his brother’s safety.
their views heard then?
Obito makes their motivations very clear. They were discriminated against after the nine tails attack. Itachi never in the manga disagrees with their motives, he soley didn’t want the other villages to pounce on the leaf as a result of the civil war. Scared of that possibly is what drove him to that (and Danzo being a huge asshole ruining the peaceful resolutions)
Before you bring up Konoha crush or pain invasion. There’s a direct effort made after crush arc for the leaf ninja to appear strong to avoid being messed with other villages that creates a low numbers problem. They wouldn’t be able to do so if there was an ongoing civil war
The Kage summit was called right as the pain invasion was happening. There was no time for the other villages to learn about what happened and the Akatsuki were a more pressing matter
Kishimoto was glorifying Itachi har
If you ignore literally everything Edo Itachi says after coming back
because they’re related to monarchies
No? The leaf can’t just fuck with the daimyo’s like that. That’s not the power dynamic they have. It is like one country messing with an ambassador of a country that funds them. Walking directly into a political mess
And legally the elders didn’t do anything besides hide the truth which everyone in the manga even Sasuke later on agrees with. This is like saying we need to execute our politicians for expressing some hardcore conservative talking points. Sure you can feel that way but legally there is no way to actually charge them
They are assholes but never committed any actual crimes unlike Danzo. You can not be charged for simply saying something when you never took direct action to do what you say. If that was the case America would be very different right now
What crimes could you charge them with?
If you want a source: Sakura Hiden
Boruto Two Blue vortex chapter 6
Not interested in fanfic novels not written by kishimoto.
The tailed beasts. They would be extinct and Sasuke wanted to permanently kill them all
Pretty sure we're talking about humans right now?
Again from Sasuke’s perspective, he said Itachi’s flaw was not finishing the ethnic cleansing lol
Wrong. Sasuke said Itachi's weakness was bond. He couldn't break it. Sasuke equated bonds with weakness.
Sasuke never agreed with Uchiha genocide.
And revolution plan has nothing to do with genocide & nationalism which Itachi did.
They have different ideologies.
If you ignore literally everything Edo Itachi says after coming back
Like saying a 7 yr old could do anything? Which was his other option?
Itachi saying he was wrong only makes him look humble. When everyone else and the narrative kept wanking him.
No? The leaf can’t just fuck with the daimyo’s like that. That’s not the power dynamic they have.
Ofcourse because they're too strong compared to Naruto?
Typical royalty bootlicker response. "It'S tRaDiTiOn".
And legally the elders didn’t do anything besides hide the truth which everyone in the manga even Sasuke later on agrees with
They were literally higher ups. They're stated in support of uchiha oppression which opposed hiruzen's initial hesitation. And them supporting danzo over segregation laws overruled hiruzen. (Stated by obito). Not to mention they're literally shown advocating for uchiha genocide and covering it up. And then later supporting danzo into coming power and hokage.
So pls stop lying, "tHeY aRe InNoCeNt", "tHeY dIdN't Do MuCh".
Btw ch6 TBV doesn't state anywhere they're appointed by damiyo. They were literally shinobis in their past, in Tobirama's squad. Who are you fooling?
we’re talking about humans right now?
Oh so you hate anything that is clearly sentient but doesn’t look human now /s
But seriously there is nothing that separates tailed beasts from humans. The manga goes so in-depth about their unfair treat and being literally enslaved by humans for so long. How it’s horrible to just treat them as monsters and not living beings that deserve respect
What message did you get from Naruto’s talk with the four tails or Kurama’s flashbacks? The eight tails?
This is a huge part of the series and that comment just makes you look bad if anything. The tailed beasts weren’t even gonna do anything, Sasuke just wanted to kill them because of what they represent to the ninja world
Sasuke never agreed with the Uchiha genocide
I never said he did. He said Itachi was perfect tho, he hated the leaf for forcing Itachi into it but he never blamed Itachi for it
And the whole point of talking to hashirama was understanding why protecting a village is so important. What separates a village from the warring ninja clan era before. Sasuke wanted to move forward by uniting the entire ninja world into one village and protect it.
We are informed of everything I’ve said about Itachi’s past and “strong makes right” ideology lol. Itachi even spells that stuff out when fighting Kabuto
Which was his other option
He could’ve put more faith into love and bonds like Naruto does
typical royalty bootliker response
Dude go touch some grass. Not only did you not give me the chance to respond but then made up your mind about my hypothetical response lmao
No. Go read Shikamaru shinden (same author as the Itachi novels). The Daimyo’s don’t give a shit about Naruto’s strength. we’ve seen this with the beginning of the war on how ignorant they are of the ninja world.
If they have a problem with Naruto. They would hurt the Leaf’s economy as it relies on the land of fire. Hell they could just legally evict the leaf village entirely lmao
What do you think would happen to the leaf if their funding gets removed out of the blue? And the answer for peace with them in the Shikamaru novel was peaceful negotiations and advocating for quick peaceful solutions to problem. That Naruto’s personality and friendliness is what keeps the peace more so than his strength. Cause a Daimyo could force any of the villages to go to war if given enough reason even if that’s not what the Kage want
over segregation laws
And where the law makers in real world history punished for making such laws? Where they prosecuted?
Again they weren’t responsible for the Uchiha massacre, only Danzo was and that was illegal cause Hiruzen forbid such action
They also only said they should label the Uchiha’s as traitors to hearing the Uchiha were planning a coup. . Danzo was the one who said they should all die. Not the elders
I’ve had this convo with you before, and you always ignore this part. Suspicious
ch6 TBV
I never said the damiyo appointed them?? What? I was showing they were the ones with direct line of communication with the Damyio and are there to keep the village from losing its budget. The economy tanking
I NEVER said the damiyo installed them as civilians running a ninja village. I know they’ve always been on Tobirama and hiruzen’s ninja squads
Then why did elders cover up danzo and helped him to get power and eventually hokage as well? No punishment for that? Instead still kept in power?
And yes, people who made segregation laws should be punished. And how conviniently you ignore manga, "elders and danzo overruled hiruzen, and then you say they don't have power and are just advisors (which doesn't really excuse it).
I never said the damiyo appointed them?? What? I was showing they were the ones with direct line of communication with the Damyio and are there to keep the village from losing its budget. The economy tanking
So are you saying no one else can replace their jobs? And they shouldn't be punished because they have an important job?
Cause a Daimyo could force any of the villages to go to war if given enough reason even if that’s not what the Kage want
And they would lose and surrender instantly seeing the power of Naruto?
He could literally end feudalism and change shinobi villages and end authoritarianism, which was the reason of uchiha -leaf conflict, amegakure conflict, etc. But nah. You're more concerned about preserving the power dynamic. I didn't call u royalty bootlicker. I said that's a typical response from people like them.
This is a huge part of the series and that comment just makes you look bad if anything. The tailed beasts weren’t even gonna do anything, Sasuke just wanted to kill them because of what they represent to the ninja world
I'm not gonna take you seriously if you think tailed beasts should be valued just as humans and killing tailed beasts is equal to killing innocent children, civilians (which was the point). You brought that comparison.
And killing tailed beasts isn't a genocide. Learnt the meaning.
Not to mention tailed beasts can't even be killed, even after baryon lol.
Anyway, the point was Sasuke eos ideology was nothing like Itachi. Because he doesn't believe in will of fire. He doesn't say he's a dog of leaf. He's not going to slaughter innocent children, civilians like Itachi did.
not interest in fanfic novels not written by Kishimoto
They’ve been the foundation of everything I’ve talked about since the beginning of this discussion
Either accept as canon cause they are. (Approved by Kishi and shonen jump) or don’t and I won’t continue this convo
They develop the entire situation more thoughtfully and detailed than anything in the franchise. I would be an idiot not to bring them up
Literally a novel writer, Kodachi was the main writer for Boruto and co-writer of the Boruto movie. The novels are canon
Swear to god it is so frustrating how no other anime fanbase has these issues. Bleach, Tokyo ghoul, and JJK fans accept their novels as canon. Why is it so hard to do the same for Naruto? Especially when a good chunk of the novels have been adapted a number of times
Sasuke Retsuden two times, Konoha steam chronicles three times.
Swear to god it is so frustrating how no other anime fanbase has these issues. Bleach, Tokyo ghoul, and JJK fans accept their novels as canon. Why is it so hard to do the same for Naruto? Especially when a good chunk of the novels have been adapted a number of times
You should know by now that this part the Naruto fandom isn't the smartest bunch.
Approved by Kishi and shonen jump
Source for kishimoto approval?
He also didn’t tell them because he knew it would immediately start the coup, he was hiding stuff from Konoha too. He would’ve never talked about the coup plans (which he knew from the beginning of his time as Anbu) if not for Shisui’s death and Danzo revealing he already knew everything to Itachi in private
He hid stuff from Konoha that could've actually led to the diffusement of the situation, that is hiding Obito's existence from Hiruzen and rather actively sought him out for helping him to massacre the clan.
And didn't Itachi reveal the information about the coup's plan himself before the council ? Danzo meets him privately after that where he states that despite Hiruzen's words he will have to make decisive measures and then shoves the decision to massacre the clan on his own. He is literally shown to have sold out his clan and his disgust towards his own clan is shown quite a few times after Shisui's death to make it clear who he aligns with. He didn't even say anyone that it was Danzo who forced Shisui into the act. If anything, most of Itachi's own decisions and actions are what led to the massacre.
Hashirama outright says what Itachi did was a “darkness” of the village and Itachi himself says he deserves to die for what he did. Also saying as he disappeared that there might’ve been another way through love
Nope, he did not regret his actions of selling out his clan and massacre them. He even calls them foolish and that they themselves were responsible for their fate. Did you even read that part when he said all this to Sasuke after Kabuto's fight ? His only regret was he didn't do 'enough' as if his terrible decisions didn't lead to the extreme. All in all, it makes the point that Itachi did not question anything at all regarding Konoha while ignoring the precarious position his own clan was put into. And another way through 'love' ? That's ironic coming to be from Itachi who didn't say it like that but wanted a '7 year old' Sasuke to do something and change the clan's ways.
Also Itachi’s entire ideology (also hashi’s) is taken by Sasuke to its logical extreme and at the end of the day Naruto won the final fight. Proving building bonds was better than the ideology that led to the Uchiha massacre
Sasuke took the ideology to the extreme ? Bruh you have got your understanding backwards. Itachi was the one whose solution was annihilation of one side to prevent a rightful coup, not Sasuke who had a way better means to bring stability amd peace without costing much lives.
And let me remind you that building bonds is only applicable between the two sides when both accept each other on equal standing and not how the Uchiha were treated as 2nd class people with the council wanting their head. And Naruto's ideology didn't give any solution but only delayed the inevitable for further, and it's not as if he would've been able to enforce this without having the strength he has.
actually led to the diffusement of the situation
He only discovered Obito’s involvement like a day or two before he was supposed to go do the massacre. There wasn’t any time to do much and why would that even help defuse anything?
Knowing the clan higher ups were working directly with the guy responsible for the nine tails attack (Itachi’s main theory). You know the whole reason for the discrimination in the first place? It would confirm the council’s fears more than anything?
didn’t Itachi reveal the information
Have you read the Itachi novels which is what I was referencing in the first place? He only did so cause of Shisui’s death and Danzo confronting him the next day revealing he KNEW about the coup the entire time. He had his own spies planted in the clan by killing a obscure member of the police force and masquerading as him via plastic surgery
https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Gozu_(Root)
https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Mezu
even say anyone that it was Danzo who forced shisui into the act
He literally wanted to kill Danzo but realized it wouldn’t solve a damn thing as he would’ve been killed by all of the root Anbu upon immediately doing. It
He was hoping Hiruzen would be pushed into doing the negotiations himself. Keeping info from both clan and village wasn’t even his idea originally, he was following shisui who Hiruzen had assigned secretly to easing clan tensions. Shisui held off from telling Hiruzen about the coup for the Koto plan
he did not regret his actions
“and judge me I deserved to be dealt with by another Uchiha”
You thinking Itachi was wanting 7 year old Sasuke to resolve it is insane. He was saying he could’ve opened fugaku’s eyes if he himself also put love his love for Sasuke above all else
I don’t understand why you keep bringing up him “selling out” his own clan. They are the ones who forced him into that role in the first place then shunned him when he tried to reason about peaceful negotiations. Fugaku ACTUALLY legit told 13 year old Itachi to convince the entire clan by his words and then fugaku would be open to negotiations.
bring stability and peace without costing much lives
Which is what Itachi did in the massacre. It was overall saving the village from a civil war and possible other village attacks, by eliminating only one clan. Absolutely fucked up thing to do but it wasn’t even really Itachi’s idea but it did follow his ideology.
growing up ever since seeing the battlefield Fukagu showed him, he wanted to be the strongest ninja ever and force everyone else into peace by power alone. That was his dream and we see him do part of it in the Chunin exams where he traumatizes a cloud ninja with genjutsu making that ninja unable to ever fight again. Forcing him into the life of a civilian which Itachi deemed better as he would have a better life expectancy and not be in harms way
That was Itachi’s solution to the ninja cycle of hate. Unlike Naruto’s solution, it was all about HIM and not relying on anyone else. Edo Itachi calls this out as a fatal flaw of when he was alive. It is what led to the massacre and his manipulation of Sasuke. He couldn’t trust others in Sasuke’s life like Naruto to be signposts for Sasuke
both accept each other on equal standing
Okay and when did I say Konoha’s side was in the right? Naruto’s solution to peace is literally to stop such blatant corruption and hate in the ninja world. The darkness that was personified in Danzo.
Naruto and Sasuke both advocated for changing the ninja system. Neither of them were wanting to uphold the status quo that led to the massacre. I’m saying Sasuke’s revolution is based off Itachi’s life and ideology expanded beyond just Konoha
He only discovered Obito’s involvement like a day or two before he was supposed to go do the massacre. There wasn’t any time to do much and why would that even help defuse anything?
That I cannot deny. But the fact remains he did not even bother to mention it to Fugaku. It was evident he had more than given up on his clan and dead set on killing them off, Danzo's final call was just a push he needed to go through it.
Have you read the Itachi novels which is what I was referencing in the first place? He only did so cause of Shisui’s death and Danzo confronting him the next day revealing he KNEW about the coup the entire time.
Sorry to say that I neither read them nor consider anything outside the canon manga not written by Kishimoto himself to be canon. So you can rest this argument basing off of information outside the manga. As far as the manga itself is concerned Itachi revealed the information about the coup himself taking away the clan's chance at a pre-emptive strike irrespective of whether Itachi knew about Danzo having prior info about the coup or not.
Okay and when did I say Konoha’s side was in the right? Naruto’s solution to peace is literally to stop such blatant corruption and hate in the ninja world. The darkness that was personified in Danzo.
My statement didn't mean about questioning whether Konoha was right or wrong. It was about stating that the very ideology of resolving things through dialogue and building bonds is applicable when both sides are accepting of each other and not one being the oppressor of other which was the case with Konoha and Uchiha. And this is the same problem that Naruto never handles as if it became non-existent.
That was Itachi’s solution to the ninja cycle of hate. Unlike Naruto’s solution, it was all about HIM and not relying on anyone else. Edo Itachi calls this out as a fatal flaw of when he was alive. It is what led to the massacre and his manipulation of Sasuke. He couldn’t trust others in Sasuke’s life like Naruto to be signposts for Sasuke
I do agree on that, but Itachi until the very end believed the massacre to be their own fault and still stands by Konoha irrespective of finding fault in his ideology. And he doesn't regrets his actions leading to that.
Naruto and Sasuke both advocated for changing the ninja system. Neither of them were wanting to uphold the status quo that led to the massacre. I’m saying Sasuke’s revolution is based off Itachi’s life and ideology expanded beyond just Konoha
Bro, as far as I remember the entire manga shows how Naruto wanted to maintain the status quo and even fought for it unlike Sasuke who fought against it. And you literally stated Sasuke took Itachi's ideology to extreme which doesn't equate to applying it to the world instead of just Konoha. You could've stated it better saying Sasuke took Itachi's view and expanded on it further but statement means otherwise.
bother to mention it to Fugaku
Given that it was fugaku’s most trusted men meeting with Obito in the compound. It is pretty safe to say that fugaku was in on it too
dead set on killing them
He has multiple monologues about being frustrated over Hiruzen seemingly not doing anything when he said he would. Also begging fugaku to hold off and go the route of peaceful negotiations. That’s not someone “dead set” on killing his clan
I neither read them nor consider anything outside the canon manga
Sigh……I’m just gonna copy and paste the response I had earlier in the post:
“They’ve been the foundation of everything I’ve talked about since the beginning of this discussion
Either accept as canon cause they are. (Approved by Kishi and shonen jump) or don’t and I won’t continue this convo
They develop the entire situation more thoughtfully and detailed than anything in the franchise. I would be an idiot not to bring them up
Literally a novel writer, Kodachi was the main writer for Boruto and co-writer of the Boruto movie. The novels are canon
Swear to god it is so frustrating how no other anime fanbase has these issues. Bleach, Tokyo ghoul, and JJK fans accept their novels as canon. Why is it so hard to do the same for Naruto? Especially when a good chunk of the novels have been adapted a number of times
Sasuke Retsuden two times, Konoha steam chronicles three times.” - end quote
same problem Naruto never handles as if it became non-existent
What problem? The Uchiha clan is gone. There’s nothing he can do about that. He’s made sure the leaf village and all 4 other villages are on equal terms. He reaches out to smaller villages and far off lands to help them prosper too
When he sees the village making Kawaki an outcast, he immediately takes the kid under his wing to try and improve the situation. The anime has Naruto crying about needing to shut Konoha’s borders in fear of Kara spies and needing a pep talk from Kakashi about it
to be their own fault and still stands by Konoha
He stands by the idea of Konoha, saying he loves the village in spite of how much darkness it holds.
Naruto wanted to maintain the status quo
No no he didn’t. Chapter 698 . “What I wanna do is get all Shinobi to cooperate with each other. Including you of course!”
That’s Naruto’s answer to bringing peace to the ninja world, what he got from his talk with Nagato. This was not nor ever been the status quo before. Boruto era takes place in a time of peace for this very reason. Like every human threat are from people mad their isn’t any fighting or possibility’s of another ninja war
Why would those characters exist if Naruto supposedly only “maintained the status quo”?
Given that it was fugaku’s most trusted men meeting with Obito in the compound. It is pretty safe to say that fugaku was in on it too
When did this happen ? I don't remember anything like this happening in the manga. And how would Fugaku know about Obito ? He would be more cautious and serious regarding a rogue Uchiha with a sharingan than anyone else.
That’s not someone “dead set” on killing his clan
He did become so after being accused of killing Shisui which he although was wrongly accused for but did not bother to tell them anything about Danzo's involvement. And his resentment towards his clan had always been there from the beginning, because it was always about compromising from the side of his clan who are the oppressed, and not from Konoha, the oppressors. And as far as peaceful negotiations are concerned, like I said before that is only possible when one side isn't being explicitly exploited under the pretext of possible negotiation and hope of resolvement in future.
They’ve been the foundation of everything I’ve talked about since the beginning of this discussion
Let me make this clear and keep it concise. I do not follow the novels that aren't written by Kishimoto himself irrespective of him approving them or not. If that were the case, then many of those non-sensical movies and filler in the anime itself would be canon.
And as I myself have stated before, if your entire argument is based of these non-canonical material we can then end the argument right here as I have no intention to keep arguing and running about in circles denying the validity of the source.
What problem? The Uchiha clan is gone.
Are you being serious or are you being obtuse ? You speak as if the military villages don't run on the economy of wars, killings, pillaging and oppression as well. Uchihas weren't the only ones who were oppressed and exploited, every other major village had their share to similar cases to an extent. And what I exactly stated is Naruto never had to handle this problem as it magically disappeared with all the warlords and criminals as the heads of the military of their villages became buddies after a war. Just because you interpret this fairytale-ish conclusion to be realistic doesn't mean others won't have criticism towards it.
“What I wanna do is get all Shinobi to cooperate with each other. Including you of course!”
That’s Naruto’s answer to bringing peace to the ninja world, what he got from his talk with Nagato. This was not nor ever been the status quo before.
No, Naruto's way of forced cooperation which is infact subservience in disguise is in no way anything along the lines of changing the status quo. All of Naruto's adversaries either had to abandon their ideologies completely and accept Naruto's own else they were brought to their knees to subservience as in the case of Sasuke. He is no different from Hashirama in that regard with the only difference being he doesn't kills his adversaries. You can go on and continue to interpret it the way you like but Naruto working as a soldier for Konoha and it's council that consist of the same people that once did during the massacre doesn't negates that he is a maintainer of the status quo, especially how he became buddies and alright with all the warlord Kages of the different villages.
To your interpretation Naruto during his tenure attempting to improve the Shinobi ways may be a change in status quo, but to me, Naruto refusing to hold his own side that is Konoha accountable for anything, allowing those in power to still reign in after the war without going through any overhaul of the shinobi system to ensure that peace will continue after he is gone is more than enough to indicate that he was never one for actual change but only surface level at best.
When did this happen
The second Itachi novel. Obito as “Madara” is supporting the clan coup in secret.
This is actually brought up in the manga too. When Obito is describing that he was setting up a war with his grudge against the senju/konoha/Uchiha
He was setting up the Konoha civil war
let me make this clear and keep it concise
Alright so is Naruto the Last non-canon? Kishi didn’t write it. Is half of Boruto not canon? Cause most of the manga was written by Kodachi, who started as a novel writer btw.
He co-wrote the Boruto movie. So is half of that movie non-canon?
Like I said, no other fandom denies the validity of their novels like Naruto fans tend to do. It is absurd and disappointing to be so dismissive of stories that ADD so much to the manga. Especially with Itachi and the Uchiha massacre situation. Which we just get short descriptions of events
in nonsensical movies
You know blood prison was canonized right? The location appears in the Boruto manga and plays a important role in one arc. It was first introduced to canon with kAkashi Hiden novel
The Boruto manga introduced purple lighting jutsu which again first appears in Kakashi Hiden. Sumire first appeared in the Boruto before being introduced to the Boruto manga
not bother telling them anything about Danzo’s involved
Cause it would cause them to spring the coup faster than intended. Telling them about Danzo only escalates things instead of easing anything
explicitly exploited under the pretext
Hiruzen would’ve never did that. Danzo and everyone else points out he was too kind to do such a thing.
weren’t the only ones who were opposed and exploited
Yes okay, I was talking more so about konoha specifically. And you think this issues magically goes away why? Gaara someone that was oppressed became Kazekage and changed his village. The sand elders in the first arc of Shippuden even gripe about the younger generation loving Gaara and changing the old ways
Naruto changed the Hyuga clan.
Mei changed the hidden mist from what it once was. She was also someone oppressed as a kekkai genkai user, she’s the Kage now.
Killer Bee was hated by his village in the beginning but became loved over time.
See a trend going on here? Yet you keep calling them all warlords lmao
You say this was all started by the villages running on the economy of war. We know for a fact this is no longer the case in the Boruto era objectively so I don’t get why you think it wasn’t resolved?
abandon their ideologies and accept Naruto’s own else they were brought to their knees
Like every single case of this is from an antagonist that had done horrible things and fought with a “might makes right” mindset. Naruto feeds them back their own words
In Sasuke’s case, you are ignoring a huge part of his ideology in that fight. That bonds would only drag him down and ruin his revolution. So he should cut all bonds off. Naruto proves him that he shouldn’t. That deep down Sasuke does consider team 7 his family and wants to form those connections again for him personally.
He shows this by apologizing to Sakura, saying she could eventually join him on his redemption journey, his redemption journey in of itself is about him forming a new perspective on the world formed by hate
There’s many differences between the ninja world and real world. To judge it so harshly from a IRL perspective is setting yourself up for failure
Then ignore all the blank era novels that expand on the worldbuilding. You question the politics and peace of the Boruto era but won’t acknowledge ANY of the novels that actually explore this aspect of the setting
Shikamaru Hiden, Shikamaru Shinden, Sasuke Shinden (which was adapted in the anime), Sakura Hiden, and Gaara Hiden all delve farther into this topic.
overhaul of the ninja system
You said it yourself, the ninja system was run by warfare economy right? It isn’t anymore and directly working with all those factions it once went to war with. How is this not a complete overhaul of the former system?
I honestly don't get what you are trying to achieve dragging on this argument while subverting the context of what I said. Most of the information you are bringing here to the table is from novels which aren't written by Kishimoto himself so you're free to keep your opinions on them for yourself. All throughout your replies you are astonishingly defending Itachi and the likes unable to admit their wrongs.
Cause it would cause them to spring the coup faster than intended. Telling them about Danzo only escalates things instead of easing anything.
So leaking info to the council is alright to further ostracize his clan but giving his clan any leads onto the matter is not for their survival ? This basically points out his bias against his clan and his overall intent.
Hiruzen would’ve never did that. Danzo and everyone else points out he was too kind to do such a thing.
At the end it was Hiruzen himself who gave the green light to Itachi to commit the deed. He accepted that when Sasuke questioned him in his edo state during the war. What stopped him from confronting the Uchiha clan head 1 on 1 and rather put the burden on Itachi ? This is the same person under whom Konoha waged the 3rd Shinobi War for economic profits.
And I don't even want to elaborate on your words regarding how the 'warlords' changed the system when everything was put in place conveniently for the sake of Naruto. Gaara became the Kage after murdering countless people in his rampages. Yes, Mei changed Kiri's condition for the better but in the grand scheme of things the shinobi system still overall ran the same way even in her village. I hope I don't have to go over Kumo, Iwa and Konoha's crimes that suddenly disappeared because they all became buddies. And no Naruto didn't change anything regarding the Hyugas, that's your headcanon, that entire theme never got addressed again. Hinata's father saying that the side and main branch now fights side by side in the war means nothing when the Caged Bird Seal still existed among the branch members to which Neji died. And what does even getting hated on have to do with becoming a warlord in the future ? It's the same redundant idea of yours that someone put into a precarious position but then going on to actively make horrible decisions and choose the worst out of all ways is not their fault like you are justifying Itachi this whole time.
And I don't follow Boruto and it is you who is constantly bringing up Boruto and everything else into the matter while I am strictly speaking within the framework provided by the manga alone. We can make inference from the manga itself without having to bring in Boruto. But since you are so adamant about it and since I have learnt a few things from different sources, why not address the fact that Ame is still in ruins and worse than ever ? Uchiha Stone Tablet is now moved out of Konoha borders, thus making the genocide come to a full circle, as what was once started by the council under Hiruzen has now been completed by Kakashi and Naruto by hiding the truth further making it impossible to point fingers at their own side. Speaking of the council aren't the two elders Koharu and Homura still there in power ? Had it not been for Sasuke actions in Kage Summit, Naruto would've continued to let Danzo stay there amongst the council as well like the other two.
And if the economy is not run by state sanctioned standard shinobi missions anymore then what does the economy has started to run on within the last few years ? And that to the point of booming a technological age. And I am supposed to take this seriously that war, fighting and pillaging is forgotten overnight which has been the staple of the shinobi to bring food to their table like it vanished into thin air ?
And don't even mention about the ending to Sasuke which as per Kishimoto himself is contrary to Sasuke's character and only happened for the sake of keeping the message of the manga as required by shounen.
This comment section is filled with haters🤦...thank u bro 👏👏👏
Naruto fans have trouble looking at a situation from a non-black and white perspective or applying any context to certain story moments
from spying to genocide against is own kin old and kids and all in between... working with obito/madara... just to later BE A SPY again in Akatsuki..... ya can't defend this shit... and shizune would've killed him on the spot and never given him his eye, don't forget that he was warned against DANZO, and he literally did the opposite of what shisui wanted to do (which was protect his clan and keep the equilibrium that already existed in the konohagakure.. which should've been what Itachi should've defended, instead of taking a side with the enemy)
Ignoring what pushed Itachi into that role. He didn’t willingly work with Danzo cause he agreed with him. He had no real choice
He couldn’t kill Danzo, Danzo knew everything and threatened to strike first if the coup was stopped even. Itachi put his hopes into Hiruzen and Hiruzen failed. Faugkua wouldn’t even listen to his son and instead put the burden of changing the whole clan’s opinion on Itachi debating them in meetings. The same meetings where Itachi was labeled a traitor and boo’d out
Again you’re putting so much blame on Itachi for not resolving the situation perfectly when that wasn’t his responsibility. He was put in that position by all the adults around him
He was assigned to the akatsuki cause Hiruzen asked him to be a spy. In that time Itachi never actually helped capture any of the tailed beasts (source Kisame), made a deal to protect Konoha and planted a trap to kill “Madara”.
it wasn't his responsibility.... but he seemed to have taken quite a bunch of it when he massacred his own clan... it wasn't his responsibility either.... Itachi was written to be a bad guy, that's as simple as it goes... but people liked itachi too much so kishimoto changed it... which he shouldn't have done as it compromised a bunch of things
When sasuke said "crying..." when remembered that night maybe kishimoto had already pictured itachi as crying while killing the clan and stuff... but the reason he could come up with was so ass that it only makes konoha be even more shit of a village than it already was... He got too much into the politics of it and was too afraid to do another gato and zabuza more in depth, that's all this is... too realistic for jump ( i doubt), too dangerous for him... that's why people prefer one piece.. it doesn't make you feel like vomiting... Doflamingo is an example of the pain fighting a noble cause can cause on innocent people that get caught up in the middle of it, kishimoto couldn't write something like that in a million years... I respect his writting but not for stuff like that.
much so Kishimoto changed it…..
Objectively wrong. There’s mountains of evidence in part 1 that Itachi plot twist was planned since his first appearance . Most new fans that react to the series straight up accurately guess Itachi’s real character
Oh and Kishi outright said in an interview it was planned since Itachi’s introduction. The same interview where he admits a lot of part 1 was unplanned, but made sure to point out Itachi’s plot was one of the things that was 100% intended
bro... that's at the very least 100 chapters after and the first flashback itachi wasn't crying and it's implied to be sasuke who was crying... even if it was planned by him (which I sincerely doubt as people can lie), that's bad writting to an extent that simply failed not only in conception but would be almost impossible to pull off in execution (and it clearly did for anyone that doesn't think "dattebayo, I'm hokage dattebayo"), if you're REALLY REALLY into naruto to the point that they say "konoha good" and you say "yes master🙏🏻🛐", you can think of all that I said here as bs "coz naruto is perfect"... but it it's there and I'm not the only person pointing it out
plus everyone at that date was saying the same thing about itachi being changed to a good guy just coz of how baffling of an excuse it is to make him look good (and doesn't, at max he seems a total dimwit), no wonder this one thing in particular he said he had planned (which makes it worse lmao)
to end the conversation.... I'm just saying that he couldn't sell itachi as a good guy, intelligent guy, or any other thing you people take him for... the reason he gave simply won't fly even in the lore of naruto... the nagato thing was even worse, but you don't want to hear and I'm not having fun talking to you (as you have nothing to ad), so that's it for it.
Yes just ignore every single bit of foreshadowing in the serie. This is my exact problem with your type of fans, y’all don’t care to analyze the actual series. Then go call Kishimoto a liar when he goes through painstaking efforts to reference every piece of foreshadowing in the reveal
Itachi would be a bad spy if didn’t buy his cover story wouldn’t he?
Nice edit. I never said “Konoha good”, I am literally saying Danzo is the personification of what is bad in the ninja world, he was the one most responsible for what happened and Hiruzen exiles him for it
I’ve never once said the village was in the right here
I'll go over this one more time: There's peace between the senju and the uchiha> the uchiha are isolated from konoha and demonized because of tobirama politics> they plan a coup because of the politics hanzo implemented from the shadows and tobirama's legacy (which is hanzo too)> Itachi kills everyone from his clan to mantain the peace........ THIS, is the stupid part that makes no sense... as he has AN ENTIRE CLAN he could use to kill hanzo, which hiruzen himself knows IS THE PROBLEM.......... but itachi instead think is smarter to weaken THE WHOLE VILLAGE, by killing EVERY POLICEMAN.... instead of: killing hanzo> giving the power to hiruzen which is THE ACTUAL hokage and should have the power from the beginning, and making himself the middle party between honoha's concerns and uchiha's concerns, amicably... ☝🏻that, why doesn't he kill hanzo? plot... how the hell can someone who kills their whole family and clan be considered good? kishimoto bullshit which there's plenty of examples of in the 70ish volumes... and what I'm saying is, I wish itachi was good and Kishimoto wrote a scenario that actually proves that he did nothing wrong... but he didn't, so that's it.
Hiruzne didn’t know Danzo was the problem. The Itachi novels dedicate a lot of time to showing Danzo tricking Hiruzen and never doing anything illegally until he attacks shisui and does the massacre.
You just assume blindly the clan would listen to him? In the novels he became an outcast for trying to get the clan to first agree to peaceful negotiations. Everyone in the meeting turned on him and forced him out basically. He wasn’t trusted and the manga literally shows this when the police force confront him in front of Sasuke
It is explained why he didn’t kill Danzo, he couldnt. It would be a suicide mission as once Danzo was dead, all of the Anbu root would jump Itachi. The same Anbu root that killed Shisui out of the blue. Itachi would die and nothing would stop the clan from going through with the coup. Danzo also threatened to have his men kill Sasuke first if anything happened to him
Itachi did do wrong, Itachi points out everything he did wrong when he comes back as an edo. Making no excuses and calling himself irredeemable
You can’t even bother reading the full post? The crying mention was only the first part. Kakashi and asuma hint that Itachi is throwing, Itachi drops 10 billion hints when Sasuke has a flashback to before the massacre, including this golden nugget . That page is literally Kishi spelling out to the audience what Itachi is actually like
But also it is confirmed to be Itachi because of chapter 403 in part 2 . So canonically it was Itachi, never Sasuke. It doesn’t even make sense for Sasuke to say something like “he made me cry!” Lol
The full post is too long, I was going to read it but the formatting is all messed up, if you give me another source I want to read tho.
I took it as sasuke meaning "for me.... to cry at that moment...." coz he had this thing that he was an avenger and was being weak by making connections with people (at the beginning of the series) and naruto was helping him to overcome that and come to be close to people again... so he was in this poursuit of purging what he considered to be his weaknesses....... just before he fleed konoha that's exactly what kakashi and him were talking about... so it makes sense that anyone would assume that when he talked about someone crying it was himself (given the context THEN, that he talked it to sakura), all he says is "at that moment... crying..."
He hadn't even decided if he wanted the akatsuki to be monsters or not... you can see what stuff he took decisions for beforehand and changed mind later, he didn't wrote just this single plot in naruto (obito is literally planned from day one).... what I AM actually saying is: the reasons he gave simply don't make itachi the martyr he pushed him as.... even if he planned that itachi had more reasons to kill his clan other than "testing his skills" and that there was this whole thing going on in the shadows (as konoha IS a political entity and it's spoken throughout about it)...... itachi killing his whole clan rather than joining all of them to kill danzo......... is🥁.... just so sasuke could be an edgy boy at the beginning of the series... it's for PLOT, thus it sours the whole message that could be in it, the whole complexity, everything
he wanted itachi to kill the whole clan coz it sounds cool and make him a shadow over sasuke life.. naruto is an ORPHAN, sasuke being his rival and being an orfan makes sense too, they can understand each other better than sakura.... now explain to me why couldn't itachi the god of the uchiha just gather everyone and fight against danzo and anbu (which he had great amounts of intel about)? for plot again... if he did that sasuke would have a family...
some things make the characters you write the most baddasest things on the manga, but when you have to WRITE about it.... then it becomes like this if you're not careful.... luffy's parents are alive, they don't show up coz one is a revolutionary too occupied with stuff somewhere else, and the other the fate is unknown at the moment... shonen manga usually don't have protagonists with parents so they don't take away the focus from the main character and sasuke and naruto are born from this writting need
Joining them to kill Danzo? They wanted to kill Hiruzen, killing Danzo only would not stop the coup nor could Itachi in the novels ever convince them to not do the coup.
Danzo also already had his own spies in the clan. They would alert him to such plans obviously
Just cause Itachi is a skilled and strong fighter, does not mean he can just unite the entire clan on a whim. Bro what
give me another source
He's not an abusive brother for killing the clan, shich wax inevitable, but because he forced Sasuke to watch the massacre multiple times, on two separate occasions. And he even planned to disrespect Sasuke as an individual by essentially mind controlling him into serving the leaf (despite Sasuke having a completely justified reason to hate the leaf). He only realized his mistakes after becoming a literal zombie.
His utility as an Akatsuki member was limited to his promise with Obito, and he was a terrible spy(granted, Kisame was watching him,so this can be excused).
This came up for me in one of the recent posts on who I’d want to see live or come back.
My answer Shisui.
I have numerous reasons, but one big reason is that shisui was older more veteran Uchiha that people admired, but even shisui saw the oncoming shitstorm. Unfortunately the plot required for him to die way early.
If shisui was alive when itachi was, even if he didn’t help with his powers/abolities, it would show itachi wasn’t nearly a lunatic as some say he was and a lone wolf or rogue.
Why are you putting "Abusive" in quotes he quite literally abused his brother
beat the shit out of sasuke yesssirr put him in a coma
And made him relive the massacre like over a thousand times
There is no defending that
How come someone with all his sense can clearly defend this fraud ?
Well, here is my 2 cents. Btw, be civil when discuss, alright.
First of all, Itachi indiscriminate slaughtered his entire clan without sparing anyone barring Sasuke. There is no excuse for that.
Second, he is an indoctrinated fool who was too high on the "Will of Fire" Kool-aid of Konoha, to the point of willing to slaughter his own clan.
It is a fact that Konoha highly discriminate against the Uchihas and thrown them into what is basically a glorified concentration camp at the outer rim of the village. In addition to the discrimination and spying, their location mean that they would be the first layer of defense aka meatshelds for Konoha.
Furthermore, the Uchiha negotiation terms are also quite reasonable. It basically includes not being discriminate, having a say in how the village run and free to live wherever they want. There is one condition that Fugaku would be Hokage but it can be negotiated later. The first three points are very reasonable. Yet, Itachi thought that those are impossible demands and didn't even forwarded those terms to Hiruzen. A bit of diplomacy and the massacre could be avoided.
Despite the Village treating him and his clan like shit, not giving out even basic rights. He still unconditionally believed in the village. This is indoctrination at its highest. He also didm't try any diplomacy but instead go right for mass slaughter. That speaks volume about his character.
Hey someone else who thinks "The Will of Fire" is a dangerous nationalistic Cult.
I don’t see why he needs defending. People who hate are never going to stop and look at something logically. And I don’t mean him specifically but generally. He’s an incredibly well written and conflicted character who made a decision no one should have to. He was wrong but there really was no right option offered. He wasn’t stopping the coup. His dad wasn’t stopping it. Hiruzen wasn’t stopping it. And thus he made the decision to prevent it by any means necessary.
Ikr 🤣
No need to defend one of the most glazed characters in the series.
Nah, Itachi tends to brain break a lot of people both those who love him and hate him. I don’t hate Itachi but to me he’s more of a plot device then anything else and Kichi really uses him in whatever way works for the story regardless of past characterizations and that falls apart more and more the more time we spend with Itachi.
Ok. Lemme give it a shot.
Can't you see that at a young age, this boy was traumatized by seeing a bunch of dead bodies? He was scared that if the clan launched their coup he would lose the village he loved and a war would start and he'd have to see more dead bodies. So can't you realize that the solution to that is to make a ton of dead bodies out of your closest friends, your lover and your mother and your father so you don't have to see a bunch of strangers die? Huh? Can't you understand that he loved Sasuke more than the village and therefore couldn't just try and leave the village with Sasuke or use Kotoamatsukami in any way to allow for that even if he couldn't stop the coup? Don't you realize that he only had entire freaking year after Shisui died to orchestrate an escape for him and Sasuke? Hm?
Yeah... This just isn't working. He's a sociopath with no valid excuse for his actions.
Alright, I know I could be wrong and no a hater; Itachi had the chief of the Uchiha as his father, he is strong, he can also say Shisui to not be around on the village for a while, if Fugaku says that they (the Uchiha) should try to back out as the village has so many special ninjas like Kakashi of the white fang who could likely be able to counter genjutsu with his Sharengan since that is public knowledge, and possibly a few others, the Hokage who has mastered all five elements, 2nd and 3rd great Ninja Wars survivor and even though he was at old age, he was able to push the 9 tails, if the Uchiha captures it which I doubt is possible if Jiraiya of the Sanin or Kakashi is around can let it happen. Then there is that other old fool, Danzo and his foundation with keke genkais (don't know how to write this one).
Even if Fugaku and Itachi can hold the foundation, Hokage, Kakashi, and the clans off including Akacimi, Choji's clan, Shino's clan and Ino's clan (their mind transfer and network transmission would play a role here) off on their own, and let not forget about the Gai that purposely got removed from Pain's assault. You think they (Uchiha) can handle the rest.
All in all, Itachi should have pointed this out so they peacefully abide the village or leave if their demands are not met.
They can’t just leave, we know canonically villages are very protective of their kekkai genkai
They would immediately be attacked and possibly worse. Think of the Uzumaki clan that had their own village
Also read the two Itachi novels, Itachi pleads with fugaku to listen to reason. Fugaku said he’s open to it BUT won’t if it is not what the clan wants. He put the burden of convincing the clan on Itachi when Itachi already got kicked out of the clan meetings for speaking out
The Uchiha massacre wasn’t Itachi’s idea to resolve the conflict, his idea was shisui’s power. Danzo ruined that option available to him and only left him the massacre as a way to stop more bloodshed and save Sasuke’s life
Even if he ran away with Sasuke. If Danzo survived the civil war (he would’ve no doubt). He would have his Anbu hunt Sasuke and Itachi forever if they just ran away. Itachi’s also 13 during all of this and you expect more from him than the clan chief and the hokage lmao
Alright, I'd like for you to provide a better course of action, that the characters at that point of time could've considered.
And he accepts that there is no excuse for his actions. Are you stupid enough to judge things on the extremes of "good and bad". We know what Itachi did was wrong. Anything he could've done at that point would've been wrong.
No. It's just that no available option was a perfect solution that would have resulted in him getting everything he wanted . Welcome to life, Itachi. My comment already gives a viable option.
The only uchiha friend Itachi had was Shisui, who committed suicide in front of him. He was then accused of murdering Shisui, by the same clan he's supposed to care so much for. That same clan proceeded to exclude him from any meetings, and for all intents and purposes, made him an outcast. His own father was compliant with not only this, but with using his 11 year old son as a spy. Truly a wonderful family.
Ah yes, run away from the village, and either get hunted down for the rest of your life alongside your younger brother, or become the cause of a World War. I guess some people simply can't live with that on their conscience.
And no, you didn't list a fucking solution. There's 200 reasons why running away with your kid brother isn't a good idea and why kotoamatsukami wouldn't do shit in that situation. You appear to be another idiot who tries to place people on just the 2 extremes of "good" and "bad".
Yes I did. What I didn't list was a perfect solution. As for Kotoamatsukami it could certainly help facilitate an escape.
Yeah man, what a solution. It's not like this would cause the entire world to get destroyed or anything. Fabulous!
The massacre didn't even stop the fourth ninja war. In fact it was declared by an active participant in said massacre.
And that is Itachi's fault how? He's supposed to be able to stall the strongest man in the world even after he's dead?
And it did in fact save the world. It did in fact probably save Konoha from getting destroyed. It did in fact prevent the uchiha from offing themselves along with the rest of the village. You have yet to give a single valid choice he had which does not involve immediately triggering a world war, preventing which is his entire motive.
He didn't accomplish anything but the murder of his family and friends. The war happened anyway. It's not a matter of knowing the future. It's a matter of how he needlessly murdered everyone in his clan for no good reason. He didn't do anything but that. As for solutions, I gave one already. What I didn't give was a perfect one. There wasn't a perfect choice that would have resulted in Itachi getting everything he wanted. That's life.
What family. What friends. The only people in the entire clan that were any different to him than the rest of the village were 3 people.
The war didn't take place as long as he was alive. He bought 13 years of time for Konoha to recover.
He accomplished Konoha not getting completely destroyed.
And are you stupid enough to pretend that the war Itachi had in mind and the one which took place are the same? One of these was going to be each of the villages trying to eradicate the others, the other was them uniting for the first time in history.
The 4th Great War could not have been anymore different from the 3rd one. All the villages were United against the akatsuki. Not at each others throats
Again the massacre wasn’t even something Itachi thought of. It was Danzo’s plan and he ruined the actual plan for peace Itachi had. Itachi hoped until the last minute that Hiruzen would solve the conflict but hiruzen didn’t do it fast enough
Itachi's memorial statue pretty much sums it up for me. "A child who sacrificed himself to solve adult's problems"
what memorial statue? that shit just fanart made by itachitards to wank him off lmao
no one will waste their money to build statue for him. if Naruto a literal hero of great war doesn't have any statue dedicated to him other than the stone face someone like Itachi will get one
I'm not saying it's real or not; I'm saying that the comment or whatever you want to call it sums up my take on Itachi he was a child that had to deal with adult problems. Both sides were on a witch hunt for a monster to cast their blame on. He chose to bring about peace by being that monster that the blame could be placed upon.
As for money, it's a mute point. Even obito has a memorial with his name carved into it that Kakashi would visit.
As for your comment on Naruto and his " Statue," it's redundant and proved false in your own statement. Dude, he literally has his whole face on the side of the mountain. I don't understand what you're getting at or why it's relevant to Itachi?
My point is itachi is still considered as villain and clan killer. yes Kakashi admit he is participate in the war but so is Orochimaru. he never clear his name like many believe. ain't no way someone wanted to build statue to honor a mass murder
yeah that quote is on point but the statue is not and you mentioned the statue means you try to speead false information because someone might think it was real because i have seen tons of oblivious fans ate this BS. you can just mention the quote without mention about the statue and your point still came across
Then say that you condescending prick. Instead of nitpicking minor information. Information that you yourself probably don't even bother to research.
https://listverse.com/2018/02/26/10-murderers-with-their-own-monuments/
Not only that, why is he considered a villain to the village when he single handedly eradicate the most powerful enemy threat to the village itself?
Sarcasm "Well, he murdered the Uchiha clan. "... Yeah, he did, so who the hell is going to hate the village? Get the fuck outta here with that BS.
Sarcasm Well, his little brother... Again, yeah, the person he loved enough to kill an entire clan to protect.
bruh did you even pay attention to Uchiha story?
He is villain because he eradicate the village police force. nobody know about the uchiha plan to rebel. it doesn't matter whether the uchiha try to revolt or not, if Kakashi reveal everything then the uchiha reputation will go to the toilet. they will remember forever as traitor
yeah i admit i was wrong there some villain with their own statue but that statue is not a monumental statue to remember them as hero. there's no sculpture about them saving entire world like what you try to prove with Itachi statue. to the eye of some that figure on statue considered as hero. but who consider Itachi as hero? the village? certainly not because they only aware of him participating and nothing else just like Orochimaru
and even if it did once again it's non canon material. hell it's not even in light novel or fillers. it's pure headcanon made by fans. you tried to use a fandom material to prove your point lol.
Some itachitards try to wank him off and create a manga panel that look very similiar to Kishimoto art style and try to spread it to get their point across, and you try to do the same. get the fuck out here with that BS. you try to use fandom material then all your points is invalid. some
But we know... I'm not saying he's a saint. But kid wasn't left with much of a choice.You only see what you wanna see and not the truth. He chose to be a martyr for the village and his clan. He was a professional as an assassin( kid was literally doing his f*ing job). Oh, and what's that you say? No one knew of the coup because what? They wanted to keep the Uchiha reputation clean?...that's the BS a child shouldn't have to deal with.
With everything we know of Itachi up until the night of murder should have ended a little more like this.
https://youtu.be/A878EkPMw8I?si=-cYvbJ9K1w5E0NkC
You can't stand any type of Fandom? Then keep your eyes/mind close, stumbling thru life cause you're ignorant. Every great media came for the mind of someone who was inspired by something else.
still caught up on the statue, despite it not meaning shit tho? Let that shit go...
He had a choice.
The uchiha die, thousands of others die, Sasuke dies. The village gets destroyed by surrounding nations, because they are weakened from civil war.
The uchiha die, except sasuke.
Itachi chose number 2, the one with the least death and saves the leaf village.
Fuck Shisui to hell for putting that burden on his best friend. Terrible coward of a human being.
Name + Posts prove a lot. I doubt you even saw the Shisui vs Danzo fight or Shisui's death.
I saw more Shisui Vs Danzō fights than you did.
There's 3 different versions btw.
Im not an idiot. Only 1 is cannon.
the 3 are
Naruto: storm revolution
Itachi Novels
and
The anime.
the cannon one is the one that we count. Did you even see the shisui death scene? If you have watch it again, it might make more sense to you.
He made Itachi promise to solve the problem. Prove me wrong. Please. I'm begging you.
That was the only possible solution. Save 1 member to restore the clan. There was no way out of it
My original post said that, almost verbatim.
That doesn't change the fact that Shisui is a cunt for putting that pressure on Itachi.
who is hating on this guy?
Me... he's an abusive asshole
Itachitards recruiting???
lmao
No
Dose Irachi not already have enough people defending him
I personally think more people should call him out on his creul deeds , for example abusing his brother to the point of madness
It's crazy to me how anyone can think he's the most "glazed" character when everytime there's a post about Itachi the comment section ends up looking just like this one
No character is entitled to defense of their shitty actions. Characters can still be well written in spite of bad things they do, but the onus is on you to make that case, not to silence ‘haters’.
I mean I’m a hater but in his defense he was a child when the massacre happened. He was only about 20 when he died.
What haters
nothing to defend, he’s the GOAT
ok... I won't talk about it (self control)
No
I thought I was the only hater tbh
I don’t hate the character himself, an incredible character, it’s those god forsaken Stan’s he has. I swear itachitards make me lose faith in humanity
He joined hands with ninja hitler (tobi) Helped with mass genozide and helped tobi collecting city nuking kaijus.....
No i will NOT defend this piece of shit...
ALL blood obito spoiled with the juubi is on his hands too....
Kisame literary says the opposite in the manga itself
And Itachi attempted to kill Obito too. Almost did it
So he was just in akatsuki for fun or wha itachi helped getting everything in place legit his first appreance in the manga is because he wants to catch naruto wtf ...his ,,plan" to kill obito was using amaterasu flames he could easily absorb.....
Obito literally says why Itachi went to Konoha in part 1 and it wasn’t to capture Naruto. That was the cover story, they can’t even capture Kurama first or it would break the Gedo statue according to Zetsu
He joined the akatsuki cause that was the deal made for Obito’s help in the massacre. He had to and Hiruzen made him the leaf’s spy. Hiruzen died so Itachi had no one to report to. So he urges Sasuke to train more and go after him, so Itachi could remove the curse Mark Orochimaru put on him to. Hiruzen wasn’t there to protect Sasuke anymore
Itachi would’ve never had to do so if Hiruzen was alive. Also we already know another part of the deal with Obito was Konoha couldn’t be attacked as long as Itachi lived. Which is why pain does attack the second after he died
Obito outright says if Itachi had more intel on him, he would be dead. We don’t even know if Obito used Kamui or Izanagi to escape as it happens in the shadows
He couldn't have used izanagi otherwhise his eye would be closes that means he has absorbed the flames
So hiruzen didn't give kakashi intel about the deal itachi could simply coporate with other people if he was so hard trying protecting konoha....
Still there could easily capture naruto and restrain him.....even oro could make the seal of minato stronger no way in hell obito doesn't know how to do this too
Why should obito honor itachis wish obito was clearly stronger than him he had no reason to be afraid of him....
We know Obito has another eye behind the mask, a spare for Izanagi that he keeps hidden. The mask wasn’t even on his face when that scene happens so we don’t know
Yes Hiruzen much like Itachi didn’t want ANYONE to know the truth of the massacre it was supposed to stay dead and buried. It would be hard to explain how a psychopath like Itachi would be a double agent if the leaf didn’t sign off on the massacre. Itachi didn’t want anyone knowing the truth either
You understand the concept of being undercover right?
Obito was grooming Sasuke to go fight Naruto for him. As he believed it was part of some destiny they shared (he was right). Also restrain Naruto for how long? Keep him prisoner while the hidden leaf go ballistic tracking them down?
For Gaara, they captured then immediately went into sealing him. They have never been shown holding one hostage easily for them to be rescued
Obito honored the deal because Itachi wasn’t overall stronger but he could seriously mess up the organization if he put his mind to it. The Amaterasu trap is proof of this
Interesting how you call obito hitler.
Konoha government was the one who ethnic cleansed uchihas. They made anti-uchiha policies to make them reactionary, and when uchihas planned a coup, they ordered Itachi to slaughter every uchihas, and then covered it up.
Obito was merely a tool. He wouldn't be able to get sharingan from uchihas if konoha didn't order Itachi.
Itachi helped killing the uchia he helped tobi to get this eyes
Its his fault every single death in the shinobi war his his fault too everyone who died or was affected by obitos actions IS itachis fault too.....
So konoha shoud have been in a civil war so the 4th shinobi rolled in sooner ?
The 4th shinobi war happend because itachi helped tobi getting everything he needed in place....he helped capturing the bijjus the very pieces tobi needed to start the war....
And it have happned sooner if konoha was in acivil war kumo coud have attacked for the byakugan or if you want to have tobi to blame let kiri attack konoha
Oro could lead an invasion with otogakure in og naruto.....itachis actions didn't helped at all there is always war....he just helpled making the WORST war in history
This right here. People say Obito couldn't advance until Itachi was dead but the truth is Itachi participated in capturing and sealing tailed beasts and recruiting new Akatsuki members. By the time he was dead 6 of the 9 tailed beasts were collected.
The Akatsuki’s novel goes against the idea he did that much to help. Kisame even says he does all the fighting when they go hunt Jinchuriki’s in the manga itself
If Itachi’s plan worked as intended Obito would be dead upon meeting Sasuke.
Y’all know what being a spy means right? He can’t just blow his cover
Fuck Itachi
I mean he definitely was abusive to sasuke and a bad spy
All information Itachi would have would go to Hiruzen, Hiruzen is the one who didn’t rely everything back to others. Hiruzen also had Jiraiya investigating the Akatsuki too
Everyone used Itachi. Everyone wanted him for his selfish reasons. The old people put blood on his hands and let him suffer for life. I'm sure if it was not for Sasuke, he would have given up and be dead long ago. But he has to look and make sure he is strong enough to survive and noone used him like they did with him. Only after that he welcomed his death, because the life he had was only suffering.
Everyone used Itachi.
So, Itachi is a whore
I like him but he's a villain so ppl hating a villain is okay
That description sounds about right
Nah fuck em. Imagine choosing your opressors over your family and then handing them your little brother. I'm genuinly amazed Sasuke didn't turn out worse.
Danzo fight Sasuke mentality with a perfect susanoo tweaking out 24/7 could have easily been at Konoha's doorstep
Itachi bad.
Anybody who hates on Itachi did not truly watch the show
I like Itachi i mean whatever ig But i find it hard to justify that not he killed those who intended to do wrong against the Leaf village ..
But he also killed those who knew nothing, probably against it and the 100% innocent.
Kids, babies who are defenseless. Women, elderly if a dog could get a sharrigan probably kill that animal too. Its too much to justify even if it was for good thats the bottom line a FACT
No
He was traumatized by his parents’ death. Oh wait, he did that. Ok for real, he was raised by the village to put the village above all. And at home raised to put clan above all. Twisted further by Anbu conditioning under Danzo. His decision making faculties are understandably busted. “Suicide by brother/make brother a hero at the same time and keep him ignorant about the truth behind Uchiha massacre” was the best his twisted little head could come up with.
I mean...he's....a brother....that's all I got
A terrible brother I might add
This sub doesn’t understand nuance or layered thinking. Anyone that views him as a villain just chooses to and one thing I’ve learned from sales is people won’t change their mind if they don’t like or trust you, so pointing things out step by step won’t matter
I can't. I can forgive evil but not stupidity
There are some things that he was forced to do. But for the most part, he did have a choice, just like he told Sasuke in the end.. he planned his life out so that he can keep his brother safe, his only family, and he did succeed, even though he suffered alot mentally
Everything he did was for the good of the village the show even said that
Three words. The real hero
A hero dose not kill innocent people, aid a Cult bent on causing chaos, and torture his brother into madness
Have you even watched naruto bro 😭
I have Both as a youth and now more recently as an adult when I discovered how horrible Itachi was.
I used to like the guy ... now I think he was a monster who deserves no respect... though perhaps a bit of pity as nothing is evil in the beginning
Clearly he is a hero and they weren’t innocent
I was wondering when the Itachi Cult would arrive to defend this wretch
He killed his family for the better of sasuke and the hidden leaf village. He killed them all for the greater good. He’s also stronger than sasuke
He's still a murderer, abuser, and blind nationalist
"I hope that traiter itachi dies a horrible death"
The whole fandom:
I think he deserves to Rot in hell
have you even watched naruto shippuden?
Yes.
I know about his twist of doing his deeds for Kohona's benefit... nationalism dose not excuse murder and sibling abuse.
1: either his whole clan gets murdered Infront of his own eyes
or
2: he kills them but leaves 1 remaining uchiha to restore the clan and has a hope
Lord are you really parroting that again?
Danzo claims that the clan was doomed anyway... yet gets a member of that Clan to do his dirty work for him.. and leaves two loose ends , one of which goes on to kill him... seems like Danzo needed Itachi to kill the Uchiha for him .
Do you Itachi fans have an actual argument that dose not rely on the words of a known lier.
1: Did you forget that Danzo had many other people that could have killed the uchiha clan? Back to what I said, anyone could have killed the whole clan. Itachi took the role because he wanted hope to be left for his clans restoration. He couldn't save the clan because as I said before, danzo can send anyone. Danzo plotted the attack because they wanted to kill him and take over the leaf causing him to die and to lose his power.
2: Does*
Lord the amount of hoops you Itachi fans go through to make him seem less bad
Seriously he murdered innocent people because he selfishly believed only Sasuke deserved to live
And later horribly tortured and abused said brother "to make him stronger " which is frankly fucked up!
"Seriously he murdered innocent people because he selfishly believed only Sasuke deserved to live"
Again, danzo, tsunade, the files, and more people admitted that danzo was going to kill the clan one way or another and itachi was the one he picked, but he could have replaced him with anyone. Again, itachi picked to do it so the clan could live, and he wanted his brother to stay alive due to his connection.
He abused his brother to protect him. It caused sasuke to get a deep hatred for itachi and not the village. So eventually itachi was going to die to sasuke and that was it, but it didnt go to plan. The excuse "make him stronger" was never said. Itachi told sasuke to get strong and grow a deep hatred for him.
I keep having to repeat the same thing. Give me a new excuse please
Seriously how can you defend a self Righteous Asshole like Itachi?
Abusing his brother to "protect him" Seriously! That's the most typical abuser line I have ever heard .. Seriously the fact people think he is anything less then an abusive asshole is laughable.
Seriously he's fucked up in manipulating his brother like that... and deserves only scorn
Its crazy how half of the ppl who hate itachi will glaze obito and call him the best character.
Personally haters are going to hate on him, nothing you can do really to change someone's minds. Some see his actions as unredeemable given the context on why he did what he did.
Myself personally, I think Itachi isn't a perfect person but he did what he thought was right and wanted Sasuke to be strong (even stronger than him) which is why he made Sasuke hate him and making him fight him to the death, so he could give Sasuke a proper goodbye and to be stronger. Even aside from just Sasuke, he defended the Leaf and more importantly Naruto from the Akatsuki for 10-13 years. Although he is arguably the worst spy and never gave info to anyone it seems until it was too late, Itachi still did a good job as a shinobi and a brother although he was not perfect. Even in post death, he came back, outsmarted Kabuto and reversed Kabuto's Edo Tensei.
Really Itachi is a character that is easy to say he's a bad person but complex to see the nature of him as a character.
Itachi is pretty cool, like him more than Sasuke
Nah he did it because he was afraid his little bro would die he loved and cared for Sasuke more than anyone else and he knew it was his clans fault for trying to do a coup,
Danzo even told him his brother would end up dead that was itachis last straw . Sure he didn't want to risk destabilizing the village, risking the start of the fourth great ninja war .
Itachi knew his clan was doomed so he didn't want the clan to bring chaos to everyone else who wasn't involved and his brother.
He wasn't given much other options to protect his brother
He ruined his brother's life... physically and mentally abused him and tortured him to the point of madness.
I'd say thats the opposite protecting his brother
Maybe he should've just killed him within family then . Maybe he should've let danzo kill him
Once again Itachi fans skirt around the fact he abused his brother.
Typical
nobody hates him. those who understand him know it too well.
Know to well that he was fucked up?
you're fucked up, man
How.. I'm not the one defending a mass murderer who abused his brother
the roy mustang of the naruto series
Best characters from theor serires 🫡
But he dose not deserve defending.
He’s stronger than Sasuke’s emo ass
Imagine hating on an abuse victim while praising his abuser..
It’s anime bro lighten up. Sasuke isn’t a great person either
And?
Still dose not excuse how awful Itachi was., or how horrible his Cult is for praising his horrible actions. It reminds me of the people who blindly defend Sauron or Feanor in the Tolkien Fandom
I find it very hypocritical when people freak out about him betraying the Uchiha when kid Itachi was forced into being the clan’s spy with no ask of what he wants first. They quite literally put him in that position
Then when he tries to reason with the clan about the coup, they basically kicked him out of the meetings
His actions weren’t morally just but he was a kid put in a really bad situation cause all the adults on both sides failed him