I just got out of a marriage in which my ex was a scapegoat to his narcissistic parents. Before the wedding they were all so kind and friendly, but that mask fell off after the wedding. Now that I think about it, there may have been red flags that I was unaware of at the time. So, my question is how do I figure out if someone is narcissistic before I enter into a serious relationship with them?
Agree with all!
Also want to add covert narcissists often have their form of grandiosity instead channeled in the form of being the grandest victim, so it looks a little different.
If anyone is “the most” about everything, whether it’s positive or negative, that’s a flag.
Even if they aren’t a narcissist, it shows black and white thinking, which indicates emotional immaturity and you don’t want to deal with that either anyway.
I've noticed covert narcissist often have a "I'm a huge victim" part of them, combined with a smug form of superiority. It's a combo of both. They will tell you usually in the beginning all these hardships they faced, and tell you what appears to be their "vulnerabilities" from the outside, but actually they are trying to elicit a certain emotion in you which tricks you into thinking they are authentic. Later down the line, you start to notice their smug, quiet sense of superiority over you and others.
Oh that reminds me of another subtle thing they do!! Yeah, the fool I dated definitely did that, acted like he was quite smart and “deserved more” but ppl didn’t like him “for reasons”, and at the time he DID seem intelligent and talented but was def failing. Later I realized his “intelligence” was SO thin. That’s a thing they can do to fake and mirror as many ppl as possible. They can learn just a little about everything, to appear smart, but they’re too lazy and don’t have the sense of self to actually have intelligence or talent.
Agree with everything you’ve said. I do wanna clarify that ‘covert narcissist’ isn’t a thing. A narcissist isn’t covert and stays covert for the rest of their lives hence why a covert narcissist doesn’t exist (there’s no such thing as a covert narcissist). All narcissistic individuals have covert and overt traits and they oscillate between the two. You can better spot one of you understand this subtle difference in terminology.
“Covert Narcissist” is a specific term, and it doesn’t mean what you say it does, you sound confused. As a term, “covert narcissist” does not mean someone who “stays hidden” like you say. It is a psychological term for a specific presentation of narcissism. It definitely exists, you can look it up if you like. You should probably read about stuff before sounding so confident.
Unfortunately my answer has not changed. Covert narcissism is a term that does exist but is used inaccurately by most people. Again all narcissists can be covert and overt so there is no such thing as a covert narcissist.
A narcissist can display covert traits but it doesn’t make them a permanent ‘covert narcissist’ because the next hour they can present with overt traits and become an ‘overt’ narcissist. So how can one still call them a covert narcissist if they’re displaying overt traits at that specific point in time? you can’t because the covertness doesn’t exist then.
I’ll wait for your answer.
Just because the term is used widely, doesn’t mean it’s correct. I have read up on this.
See below for even more explanation/details by the professionals.
The majority of mental health professionals do not agree with this person, or you, so no I’m not wasting my time watching some clickbait or interacting with you. Congrats on finding an outlier who agrees with you, rather than understanding the general consensus and how terms differ from definitions. Reddit is so funny.
You asked for a source and I gave you one. What is your source? Most mental health experts agree that is is very rare for someone to exhibit purely one type of narcissism without any traits of the other. If you say that it is possible for a person to primarily display covert narcissistic behaviors then that’s more accurate. The point is there is no such thing as a purely covert narcissist. People can have predominant covert narcissistic traits but the other half (overt also exists) within the individual.
If you care to educate yourself here is a peer review study on this.
I quote from the article:
’Whereas overt narcissists are extraverted in their self-aggrandizing behavior, covert narcissists keep all that grandiosity inside. As such, their thoughts about other people’s inferiority to themselves will manifest as internal dialogs full of judgmentalism, jealousy, condescension, and contempt. If they do express any of these thoughts, then they will likely be passive in their expression.’
This means that a covert narcissist has grandiosity - an overt narcissistic trait - but they maintain this internally/secretly. This supports that a covert narcissistic can primarily display covert narcissistic traits (predominant) but it’s doesn’t mean they don’t have overt traits, it’s simply hidden internally but they are certainly covert + overt.
https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0201216
It’s a sub-type used for classification and description, by the vast majority of mental health professionals.
Sometimes an apple is red, sometimes it is green, sometimes it’s red on one side and green on the other. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t ever make general distinguishments between red and green apples. Good grief. Learn how language, terms, and definitions function.
It is correct that overt and covert narcissism are subtypes used for classification and description by mental health professionals. However, the existence of subtypes does not negate the fluidity within individuals’ behaviors. Much like apples can be red, green, or a mix, individuals with narcissistic traits can exhibit behaviors from both overt and covert subtypes.
There is research (as I have shared) that supports that narcissistic traits can be context-dependent. Here is one more: a study by Wink (1991) found that grandiose (overt) and vulnerable (covert) narcissism are two dimensions that can coexist within the same individual, but one may be more dominant than the other based on situational factors. This supports the notion that individuals may primarily exhibit one type of narcissistic behavior while still possessing traits of the other.
Furthermore, clinical literature and empirical studies highlight that covert narcissists display their grandiosity internally and subtly, contrasting with the more overt expressions seen in grandiose narcissists. To help you, this means this differentiation helps in understanding the varied presentations of narcissism in clinical settings. For example, covert narcissists may engage in passive-aggressive behaviors and internal dialogues of superiority, which are less visible but equally impactful as overt narcissistic traits .
I agree that it is important to make general distinctions for clarity and diagnosis, however recognizing the spectrum and fluidity of narcissistic behaviors ensures a more comprehensive understanding. Just as apples can be categorized by color for ease, understanding the interplay between overt and covert narcissism allows for more accurate and individualized assessments and treatments.
So your argument that overt and covert narcissism are simply subtypes used for classification does not undermine the reality that individuals can exhibit both types of behaviors.
Uh I never said there was no fluidity or variety of presentation determined by context so I don’t know why you’re trying to argue against something I never said.
You originally said “covert narcissism isn’t a thing”. But now, in this comment, you yourself say it is a useful and commonly used term. I’m glad you figured out how words and terms work and have come around to agree with the basic consensus of reality.
Agreed.
Thank you! This is really helpful! I guess I jumped in to the marriage too early. I should have waited longer to let them show their true colors. It would have come out eventually.
Well you can also learn to not let them have control over your marriage. Does your boyfriend act as flying monkeys or enablers to them? If not, you can set boundaries and learn to keep them outside your life. If your boyfriend is truly the one for you, he will participate in keeping his narcissistic parents out of your marriage. Remember you're the adult in the relationship, you're in control, so learn to stand up for what you need. If they push, be the bigger person but be assertive. Don't get caught up in drama or over explaining yourself. When they cross a line, tell them. If they don't stop, then you limit the contact they have at your house. It's up to you. It will work out, as long as your husband isnt aware of how they are, or enables them.
I ultimately had to leave the marriage. He would tell me one thing and his parents another. He was never on my side. He would enable the abuse and sit silently as his parents came at me. I was expected to tolerate whatever was said to me because he can’t do anything about it.
Yep, best that you that marriage. He's still acting as their extension. He's an enabler and will expect you to tolerate the abuse
Do you have examples or anything? Is it your husband or his parents that are the problem? Is there anyway to pull him away? Move across country?
A little bit of both actually. They eventually got pretty verbally abusive and would hint that my parents didn’t raise me right. When I tried to confront my ex about how hurt I felt. He would just tell me to listen to what they say and let it out the other ear because that is what he has always been doing. He was unwilling to move away. I also didn’t want to ask because I was already being accused of stealing him away.
This fills in the gaps, thanks you and I'm sorry you have to deal with it
Yes, this is why it’s important to go slowly into a relationship. The relationship will usually begin with love bombing and trying to get things moving too quickly, the whirlwind romance narrative but something feels a bit off about it. If someone isn’t a narcissist, they’ll be happy to go at a slower pace because they’re enjoying the process of getting to know you but a narcissist will probably be frustrated and let the mask slip too quickly.
Are you saying the thrive off reactions as it gives them supply
They can, and some of them thrive off the opposite (they want complete obedience ). It depends on the person. Either way it's best to remain assertive (not emotional or aggressive ) with them cause that gives you power and doesn't feed them if they are the type to feed off reactions. Never let them take your voice, but don't let them control your mind basically. That's why some of them get off on reactions , they feel in control.
Do they also do the DARVO and do the actually believe they are the victims and the victims are the perpetrators
They will do darvo, if you try to get them to admit to something wrong. That's why it's best to know yourself and believe in what you say, and state what you need to plant a seed in their mind, not to get them to verbally agree. They won't, and will use darvo alot of the times.
They also believe they are victims. It's not by choice, they reflexually believe they are. They can't accept they aren't the problem, if you're truly dealing with a narcissist. They aren't just acting, they actually believe they are wronged.
They do believe they are the victims. Somehow they hijack the conversation and find a way to make it about them.
Complete obedience is still an action they can thrive off of ! ;)
Some do yes. Some like the reaction, others think a reaction or any sort of push back is a major offense. I see it alot in narc parents. Any sort of standing up for yourself instantly makes you evil
Thanks for the detailed write-up! You have done thankless service to humanity! To add, I can attest to a lot of these behaviors - I used to be one of these schmucks you describe, I grew up in a narc household (parents + sibling were narcs), within a deeply narcissistic bourgeois society in India and so these were the only traits I learned and believed to be "normal" behavior only to be later unmasked, decimated, shamed by my down-to-earth spouse and had to start building myself from the ground floor in my early 40s.
I'm thankful it happened to me, I realized how much I lived an incongruent life to my deepest instincts, and now it's almost like I'm liberated from this puppetry life (the narcy parts of me pulling the strings i.e.), I can be what my deepest instincts drive me to be, and am unapologetically. Cheers.
I would have to say that everyone is a narc. I mean look at your list of things to look for. And ask yourself have you ever been in a situation when someone could have said that you were a narc.? Cause I believe that everyone wants to feel important sometimes and may stretch the truth a bit and say that they have a skill that may not be but average. Or might name drop I mean come on I know that there is a such thing as a narc. But I also know that it really take a trained therapist to actually diagnose someone with that disorder. It’s not as simple as a set of traits.
I can't say I know anybody who acts in these ways that isn't atleast somewhat narcissistic. I just disagree with you, this is something I've noticed in the few narcs I've known in my life. The vast majority of people don't qualify for alot of those examples, and I'd say you could try to say the same thing about the dsm list. "Everyone has fantasies of being admirable sometimes, so everyone must be a narcissist".
Basically I'd say if you know somebody who obviously qualifies for those examples, you are definitely dealing with a narcissist. I just don't see any other way
Well all I can say is that you have your opinion and I have mine maybe I’am a narc. Although my therapist says no but maybe?
It's hard to get a good opinion on that. Believe it or not, just like any other job, there are good and bad therapist /psychologist. It's possible that you have traits and not full blown NPD, which a pwnpd who has it bad, is a very insufferable, deceitful assholes. Id say alot more people suffer from more than usual narcissistic traits these days then we think, but getting an Npd diagnosis is usually hard because it takes a lot of day functional behavior to get yourself diagnosed as that, and usually if a narc is diagnosed it's against their wishes and they never planned to get diagnosed
That the point I was trying to get across is that basically a lot if not everyone has some type of narcissistic traits. And that it is not just a set of symptoms to watch out for just cause someone may have some traits or symptoms of the disorder doesn’t mean that they are it is very hard to get diagnosed.
I’ve learned it can be a bit challenging upfront since they are usually mirroring you. As time goes on the toxicity sets in. I have conversations about their past relationships to see if I pick up a pattern of them being a perpetual victim. I look for dichotomist thinking, aka black and white thinking. They are psychologically rigid and can’t see the gray area in life/people.
For me the biggest thing is how they handle conflict. This is usually where their colors shine. Unfortunately this can take some time. If they dodge accountability, blame shift, and hit you with the word salad it’s time to hit the bricks.
the biggest thing is how they handle conflict.
Underrated advice. Good for all relationships.
You never really know anybody until you've survived conflict with them.
dichotomist thinking, aka black and white thinking
This isn't a bad thing, it's a survival mechanism, and ironic in itself-- you're either a binary thinker...or you aren't.
It is literally the mechanic behind enforcement of boundaries. Who benefits when we reconsider our own boundaries? The person testing them.
Shame surrounding "black and white thinking" it is sophistry perpetuated by people who seek to avoid accountability through rhetoric. This is the actual mark of the narcissist, who wants enough of a gray area to be able to talk their way out of anything.
Moral relativism gives them that out with nonsense logic like "it's not cheating since we only did ___." Fuck that. You either crossed a line or you didn't. The nuance is meaningless and beside the point.
I watch out for blatant, entitled hypocrisy combined with a marked tendency to insinuate their own superiority.
They love to spend half an hour telling you how great they are or all about their accomplishments.
I wish I knew. My husband is one and I didn’t figure it out til we were together over 30 years!!! What sucks is they know how to act like a civilized adult but choose not to.
Absolutely! It hurts to see that they are actively choosing to treat us poorly when they are fully capable of treating other people around them with respect.
Yes and those other people they treat so well think they are just the greatest people!! Unbelievable!
This!
I find that once the mask falls off, they either don't want to or just have a very hard time with, putting it back on. IDK, that's their shit, not mine. I got my own issues to try and keep sorted.
As far as how to detect them, its about how they deal with compliments and criticism. I recently left a woman because of how she responded to something that most people wouldn't have taken as critisim. Like, she was talking about something and was trying to act like it didn't bother her, but it was written all over her that it did. So, I told her not to play poker, because she had a terrible poker face. She turned around and insisted that I was wrong and wouldn't drop it until I agreed. I mean, this wasn't the only narc flag, but holy shit, this was what really made me start thinking it. The other flags were around her obviously always just saying what she thought I wanted to hear. I guess it never occurred to her that what I wanted to hear was how she really felt and what she really wanted. All I could think after all this was about how much worse this would all be a while from now, when she wasn't worried about keeping up a front.
They are so sweet that the red flag does not look big. But it is.
Look for the patterns. Everyone has bad days, but if the bad days are a pattern and involve lashing out/blaming others/etc then there may be a problem.
Value yourself and stand up to mistreatment.
They will learn or leave.
Hopefully they won't try to ruin your life for your hubris.
I've dealt with a couple of narcissistic folks, and what I remember the most from the early stages is an intense feeling of internal conflict and confusion that started almost immediately.
My gut was telling me to run like hell, but either the narcissist or associates of the narcissist would convince me they were "great guys" and that I should "give them a chance." In the short term, guilt triumphed over my instincts. I kept acting like everything was amazing, but I felt like I was in psychological quicksand.
It's hard to specify external traits of the narcissist that are dead giveaways, because everyone has some narcissistic traits so any one thing can be explained away. The inner turmoil they create in others is unmistakeable, though. (Remember that you might not be their current target, so don't dismiss the experiences of others even if a person seems like a "nice guy/gal.")
Darvo
I have asked myself the same question 1000 times.
One thing I have figured out for myself is, whatever vibe I give off, I attract manipulators, narcs, whatever term for a manipulator people want to use.
If you are a genuinely empathetic or good human, they will pick right up on it. Some will seek you out.
I realized however I handle people or project myself is part of the problem. I know this isn't the correct way to handle it, but as of the last few years, I assume everyone is a manipulator of sorts and I have avoided any and all new connections with people. Or if I do meet a new person, I am very short with my answers. .. I have my core 5 friends and that is the end of my contact list.
Until I can wrap my head around my own behavior, that is how it will stay.
It's not so much of them attracted to a specific type of person or they choose their targets carefully. It's more so of them getting stuck to people with certain personalities - like people with codependency, high empathy and poor boundaries. They're always mirroring and testing boundaries of every person they come in contact with.
One sure fire way is snide comments disguised as jokes. If they are love bombing you like "i've never met anyone better, you are the wind beneath my wings " then they hit you with subtle insults "she's always eating, haha" or "she's old, but I put up with her" or act like they deserve a medal for "dealing" with you, that is a manipulator.
Don't forget about the "narcissist stare." They have a hard time understanding normal social boundaries and will do odd social things most would consider a faux pa's, one of them being staring at someone for a duration most would feel uncomfortable with holding
All the comments about detecting narcissists are bullshit.
You must learn how to detect abusive people. Not narcissists. After all, only a mental health professional can diagnose someone.
Go to YouTube, type in HG Tudor. He will tell you every thing you need to know.
Research NPD and Borderline Personality Disorder. Many times they go hand n hand.
Narc does cycles lovebomb, devalue, discard, Hoover, reverse Hoover. They don’t always do it in that order, but once you see how each one is expressed, it’s easy to spot.
For Borderline- once triggered they personality split or channel switch like you do on a tv. In more extreme cases they start talking in the voice at the age they had the trauma. Happened once with my ex and I knew he was having a more intense episode than usual.
r/narcissists at it again lmao
Simple..a man
That's not narcissism, they're is a more common term for it which is two faced, not to say they weren't showing signs of narcissistic things. Reaching out to a specialist in the field of psychiatry and psychology will bring answers to those questions, talk to a few from different organisations as well
They begin all sentences with “I”
A lot of autists do this too. Self is just their mental starting point.
Make of this what you will; they can be (literally) self-ish, but arent necessarily narcissists.
Personally, I look for someone who acts like they are geniuses, but only seem capable of very shallow conversations. The narcissist I knew loved to talk your ear off, but all conversations were either small talk or criticisms or other people for minor fashion faux paus.
Having been involved with many narcissists or people with many narcissistic traits across a variety of different scenarios, I’ll say there is really no magic way to figure out quickly. Though I definitely wanted one after my first few experiences! Time seems to be the only way to know. Narcissists are really good at hiding their true self until they are ready or force their own hand to show you. Along these veins, I agree that looking for patterns is a really great start.
They are always the victim or hero in all their stories. no accountability or learning from the terrible things that have happened to them: ask them what they learnt about themselves from their previous relationships.
Extremely sensitive to criticism and the world no.
go to youtube, type the covert narcissist. i learned everything i need to know abt narcissists there
Same with ticktock. Lots of very useful information. Just search for narcissists
I cannot agree more with most of the comments in here. One of the things that I did was I set boundaries. And then held them. The narcissist in my life loves to set boundaries on other people that she only adheres to when it's convenient, you set boundaries on her and she becomes just absolutely batshit livid.
It blew me away a little bit when I was told to do only that and their true colors will come through. When I stopped letting them control me they just got more and more abusive.
The best way is start feeling feelings. Most of the time I get this feeling. Or see a darkness around them.
Why would you want to do that. You’re insecure if you can’t handle a narcissist.
It took me twelve years to figure my ex wife out. Beginning was hot and heavy and we connected quickly and everything was good. But as years went on I noticed she controlled everything, she wouldn’t accept boundaries such personal attacks of each other, she had rage problems, she was entitled, she felt smarter then everyone, she was never wrong, she was so competitive she went to graduate school only because I did, she had very low self esteem, all my friends wives thought she was a serial killer, my mother got cancer and died and she showed zero empathy or compassion, she has secret expectations of me that I wasn’t aware of such as going to bed when she did, everything was about her, if I didn’t help fix her mental breakdowns I was a bad husband and in the end she ran a smear campaign and has broken no contact to Hoover my status in life. She also remarried in six months to an academic type that she dominate and feel better about herself finding new supply with advanced degrees and a prestigious job. I was on egg shells for 6-7 years. I hated my life. I was always the cause of all the problems. We divorced after 3 months of me ignoring her. She couldn’t take not being cared for 24/7. Still not sure if she a narcissist but my therapist thinks so. So does my dad and all my family members.
My question is did you try to help your husband or just forget your vows and go manshopping?
I did try to help him see what was going on. We also went to marriage counseling to see if a third party could help him see what was going on. He told me he would try harder to stop the behaviors that I found upsetting only to do it again at a later date. This continued even after I was out of the picture.
Find a copy of the DSM-5-TR., that should be easy enough. Go to the index and find the page for Narcissistic Personality Disorder. Go to that page. Read it. Find peer reviewed articles concerning Narcissistic Personality Disorder. You won’t find them on TIctok. In fact stop listening to people on TIcTok and read actual medical articles or text books. Educate yourself. If you find yourself constantly in situations with NPD people seek therapy and figure out why you are attracted to them or why they are attracted to you. Then change that. If none of that works for you, then likely you are the NPD.
Be very in tune with your body : insomnia, tense shoulders, gut feelings, headaches
Keep a journal - if it’s just a personal reaction and everything turns out okay - then great - if not you have something to give you a sounding board
Are they treating you as an extension of themselves or as a valid whole person?
Do they appreciate your empathy or crave it and use it as ‘supply’
Do they comment you’re “too sensitive” or “overreacting” or do they validate your feelings even when it is not the truth of a situation
Believe it or not, if you ask a narcissist if they are a narcissist. They will almost always answer yes. They don't see it as a negative trait. And they also see themselves as superior to you.
Yeah I don’t think that’s true. I’ve had one person tell me to my face he was a sociopath but that was an isolated experience. Most people know “narcissist” is a bad word and most narcissists don’t want to be seen as “bad”, so this was a really random and inaccurate comment tbh.
Actually it is true, and there is quite a bit of evidence to back my assertion up. I was also married to a woman that had NPD. One day my therapist said, " Why don't you flat out ask her if she is a narcissist" So, I did. To my surprise she answered yes without hesitation. They don't see narcissism as a bad thing, they also feel superior to others. It's probably the only time they will be honest with you. Sociopathy and Narcissism are two totally different personality disorders. You are possibly making a common mistake in comparing the two.
Same is also true for actually smart people that have empathy if they know what one is in the traits department vs definition. Narcissistic traits do go hand in hand with intelligence to some degree but without most of the negative behavior/ cycles. Some people can come of a tad narcissistic because they earned it, put up or shut up instead of deflecting usually says it all lol.
It takes some time to interact to be able to tell. Doesn’t take long though if you’re looking for it and or you know what it looks like. But when you meet one, you’ll know it. Pretty quickly I’d say. The “something is off” buzzer goes off, then it’s like..skitzo? No, BPD, naw that’s not it, NARCISSIST!! Ding ding ding 😂
Are you saying that your ex was a narcissist? Obviously, his parents were and he was the scapegoat.
How is that obvious? I mean, I’m not disagreeing but if it was obvious to everyone it wouldn’t have been something to comment.
She says that his parents were narcissistic and she said that he was the scapegoat. Narcissistic parents have 3 types of children: golden child, scapegoat and neglected child. Usually one type prevails with a little taste of one of the others.
3 missing replies
You need to learn to get over your original emotions, and look at things objectively. The only way narcissist can operate is by playing on others emotions. If they have no real power over you (boss, parent, religious leader etc) then the only power they have is the power they have over your emotions. So when you meet someone, make a checklist :
For starters , look for hypocrisy. This is often the dead give away they we sorta ignore, it could be showing in a low stake scenerio, or something that really doesn't matter. All that matters is there is some form of hypocrisy in general.
Does their claimed behavior add up to how they act? Do they act kind hearted, but don't ever help the needy, or look down on poor /homeless people, for example?
Do they act nice, but have a string of broken relationships behind them (hard to detect unless you know their life)
It could also be they claim unearned superiority or specialness. One of the defining characteristics about NPD is they claim UNEARNED traits and status which is summed up as "an inflated ego". It could be claiming to be really nice and helpful to the community when they are actually assholes, it could be they claim to be super smart and successful but are just average, they could claim a skill set that they aren't very good at or are average at.
Do they act like they are super close to you, yet don't know you that well? Keep in mind, on its own this isn't a clue. Sometimes you really do meet people you just work very well with, but keep this sign in mind.
Is there a sort of uneven dynamic in their relationships? For starters, everyone in the family defers to the mother , and nobody questions her or she is always center of attention?
This is a big one ; do they surround themselves with people who are "YES" people? True narcissist can't be friends with people who regularly expose nonsense or hold them accountable for stuff. Their friends are always extensions of their own shitty psychology. They will have "flying monkeys" as opposed to actual friendships.
Last one I can think of, they try to associate themselves with important people or things. Often they will name drop people they hang out with , even if they are hardly close with that person, or its flat out a lie in the first place. Or, it could be they act really high status, and look down on "low status people" and ironically, often aren't actually that high status themselves?(They could actually be high status, but they will only associate with other high status people of things , or if it's not status , it's "special" people who have a particular set of traits or possessions ).
That's really it on the top of my head. You can't really know unless you put some time in with a person, but if you keep your emotions in check, you will spot these things much quicker or you will spot them in general when otherwise you would have overlooked them. Good luck