Fill in the blank: The Biggest Mistake KISS Made Was _____?
Revealing the Avatars at the end of their last show, making the whole thing feel completely insignificant.
This. The last show ever should have been so much more about the fans as well as past, present and future members of KISS, honoring Mark St John and Eric Carr, etc.... Sad.
Yeah it was really weird
100000% what a strange way to wrap things up.
💯 so, so, so, stupid.
Probably not their biggest mistake but I would kill to have an Alive album with Eric on drums
Carr obviously
In excruciating detail, please share bullet points why Erc Carr in KISS was a mistake?
That’s not what I said bozo
Thank goodness Reddit has a blocking feature so I never will hear from you ever again!
Do you just argue with everyone in this sub? Follow up, why are all of your comments super dumb?
The closest to that that we have is the Animalize live concert that was released on VHS and later DVD. I wish they would have released it on CD and maybe called it Alive 3
Kept touring when Paul lost his voice.
when did he start to lose his voice ?
I don’t know exactly when , but after Sonic Boom, I remember hearing shows that he just lost it. I think he gave everything he had for 30+ years and it just gave out. It’s ok. It happens, and he did it entertaining our asses. ;). But he was untouchable for 30 years. Imagine that. 30 years and hit any note you want. Unreal. He’s so underrated its sad.
He sang on stage in Phantom of the Opera and sang a duet with Sarah Brightman. One of the greats of Rock!!!
Yes! I wish there was an HD version of him doing Phantom
Extremely underrated! I think as far as vocalist goes, he’s up there with Aretha Franklin, Whitney Houston, and Sam Cooke etc.
Like 2006 it started to get rough
It was after the live to win tour when it started
Yep. First noticed it in 2004, but it was serviceable. 2008 it was really noticeable, then by the 2009 tour it was BAD.
Swore I’d never see them again after I caught them in 2012, but then when he started lipsyncing in 2019 I figured what the hell ¯_(ツ)_/¯ 😂 Went one last time and had a blast!
No it was around the second half of 2009
If you watch the Kiss Honors performance his voice was going then and never recovered
What TF are you smoking???? It went at the end of 2009
https://youtu.be/Gs1ZjRPVGj4?si=o-LnF4s8ajaQ2Xf7
You can watch the video I referenced.
His voice isn’t gone here, but it’s the first sign of it starting to show some heavy wear. He is struggling to hit the high notes.
No he's not in that video it's called vibrato
Jesus lol I know what vibrato is. Paul has always used vibrato. You can just hear he’s straining a bit on high notes. His voice for the most part of this era is decent but nothing like the previous few tours. His voice is on the decline here.
About 20 years ago…fkn sad, he had one of the best voices in rock….
I get the weirdest looks from people when I mention Paul Stanley as one of the greatest front men in Rock n roll. But then you meet someone that really knows and you get that look…
Yeah I know, it’s KISS fans little secret. Just gotta watch them unplugged. I Still Love You. He fkn kills it…..and I’ll had I think his voice was at its best in the 80s just my thoughts on it….also I know this goes against the norm. here but Paul’s solo album is my favourite of the 4, the emotion in his voice just takes me somewhere else..
-08 was showing, but it did sound more like an off night. -09 was a lot worse---
Alive 35 was the watershed moment he should have just hung it up. Saw them twice in -08 and once in -09 on Sonic Boom Over Europe and he sure did loose a lot between those tours..
Yep. His voice was noticeably weaker that 08 tour but he still sounded good. 09 was when it really hit and became unlistenable.
I saw them in 22 Melbourne, seen them about 7 or 8 times…the thing that is really important here is the fact Paul and Gene share vocals… and even then, if it wasn’t KISS you wouldn’t listen. I don’t know where you’re from but KISS did the pre-game entertainment at our largest annual sporting event last Sep. if you’d like to see that just YouTube… KISS rocks 2023 AFL I dunno how to post links
Paul Stanley never "lost his voice!" 🙄
So what’s the punchline ??
Get educated! 🤓
It can only be an inside joke if others know it……
Paul Stanley still sang and did dozens of interviews. Videos DOCUMENTED he still had his voice! 🤓
The Elder
Not letting Eric Carr sing more.
Not changing the set list for the End Of The Road. Should have had a few deep cuts like I Stole Your Love and C’mon and Love Me. Especially the last two shows.
The Avatars
Assuming people want the same setlist for the last 20 years.
Catering to kids around 1978ish.
Not giving Tommy & Eric S their own characters.
I agree. Each original member had their own design based on their own personalities. I understand where Paul is coming from with his ideas on new makeup, but still, each member with makeup should have had their own, in my opinion.
UpdateMe
Just Paul and Gene being petty. They figured they’d show Ace and Peter it was about the makeup, but it wasn’t. It was an extension of their personas that’s why it didn’t feel or look right when the other two wore or tried to imitate them
100% my friend.
Only the diehard really care about that, and even then only some. I don't think it really damaged their career the same way some other mistakes did.
It didn’t “damage” their overall career, but it certainly cheapened it. My son and I seen the current version in concert like 5 times. Still go, still enjoy the music, but it felt like a hollow version of the band.
I feel they could’ve remained big, instead of nostalgic, over the last 20 years. It would’ve been newer and fresh instead of hollow and faux
You think Tommy and Eric having their own make up would have meant they were a bigger draw card? Honestly the majority of people attending the last few tours especially were casuals who didn't even realise it wasn't Ace or Peter up there.if they had new makeup, I think a lot of that casual fan base would have been lost and concert attendance even smaller. The diehards like us, here in this forum, are a very small minority.
Paul already addressed that ridiculous and asinine idea! 🙄
Not giving Tommy and Eric Singer their very own personas. It would have alleviated a lot of the negative feelings some fans had/have and it would have enriched the lore of the band even more.
Having a band like Judas Priest open for them on the Dynasty tour and somehow not taking a hint and proceeding to make Unmasked.
Not returning to non-makeup with Bruce and Eric after the Farewell Tour.
Not figuring out a way to keep Ace.
I wouldn’t want to work with a raging alcoholic either.
Raging? You must have been a roadie. Just curious, what tour did you work on to witness this behavior, or… is that what you’ve heard? Just wondering?
Continuing after The Farewell Tour ended in 2001. That would have been a great time to end it.
Agreed, though they still could’ve done a few spot appearances and kept things like the KISS Kruise.
Letting Ezrin bring in Dick Wagner to replace Ace on Sweet Pain. After three years of non-stop work, let Ace have his poker game. Gene pretty much missed the entire 80's decade, but Ace can't take a day off? It was a destroyer all right, the seeds were planted that ended the real Kiss.
edited to correct to Dick Wagner from Bob Kulick. Brain fart.
I agree and I'm the biggest fan but he probably missed a lot more and they eventually got fed up with it
But he didn't miss a lot more. He never missed a concert (came close once), but that's the whole point. He took one night off, and Ezrin, with Gene and Paul complicit, ruined the band forever. The Golden Age of Kiss was very brief, only up to early '76.
It was Dick Wagner not Bob Kulick. Wagner had just worked with Ezrin on Alice Cooper.
100%, just had a brain fart, but the rest of the comment is true
Is that confirmed? I feel like I've heard that dick Wagner being on it isn't confirmed
https://www.kissconcerthistory.com/interviews/interview_wagner.php
Interview with Wagner
It’s been confirmed. Even by Peter in his book because Ace left the studio to play cards.
Messing with the running order of The Elder so the story made no sense
I don’t think changing the order would have helped much. But it might have made it a bit better. The story was pretty thin and generic overall. It was a concept album without much concept. Having said that I actually do like it.
Yeah, I mean I love about half the songs hard. Dark Light, Mr Blackwell, The Oath, Escape From The Island maybe, Under The Rose about half the time.
But I remember as a kid with my 2nd hand copy, being ready for a story and getting what felt like an acid trip time loop through bits of one.
World without heroes is a terrific song.
Actually yes - I should have added that one! Great song!
lol. That’s about it.
Even though personally I really like Dynasty,,Unmasked, and The Elder, from a career point of view it was probably those releases. Up to 77 or 78 they were unstoppable. The solo albums and Kiss Meets the Phantom slowed that momentum, then Dynasty was suddenly a bit disco-ish. If they had put out a more traditional rock album, truer to their original sound, I believe their career trajectory would have been upward again. Instead, a one-two-three of a,disco-ish album, then a power-pop album, then a concept album, turned many fans off and they never fully recovered.
Chasing every popular music genre at the time and trying to fit into it instead of setting the pace like they had been doing.
Biggest mistake was ego and drugs via 1976. Drugs and Ego. Pick your member, add the label. Ego and narcissism are just as bad as cocaine when it comes to artistic endeavors.
But musically was Bob Ezrin. He told them they were WAY better than they were. Not having Eddie Kramer produce EVERY ALBUM Is the biggest mistake.
Taking off the make up
Kicking Bruce and Eric out for Ace and Peter. The original line up is iconic but there is a reason why they didn’t last. Bruce was a great addition to the band and they sacrificed him to cash in on nostalgia.
not working harder to keep the orchestra together in 1979
Calling it quits sooner. Same as motley.
Quite a few mistakes
While I love the solo albums, they should have taken a break and then put out a KISS album.
Acs and Peter needed help.
Same with after Dynasty if they took a break and returned with Creatures without Unmasked and the Elder.
Allowing Vinnie to join the band. He had an incredible chemistry with Gene and Paul for writing. Imagine if they’d hired Bruce for COTN tour and kept VV on hand as a songwriter for both Animalize and Asylum?
Paul not having someone tell him to stop screaming between songs.
The avatars. I was at the last show and when I got back to the hotel I opened the video and sat there like wtf did I just watch 😶
Not letting Eric Carr sing more songs.
Not giving Tommy and Eric their own identity instead of mimicking Ace and Peter
"Firing" Eric Carr
The stretch between Dynasty to The Elder, started chasing music trends and continued to do so from then on. I like songs from the era but it alienated the fans, drove Ace away and turned the band into a joke and they were less and less popular until the reunion tour.
Working with Vini Poncia as a producer. They did Dynasty and Unmasked with him. They went from hard rock/ heavy music to pop and disco. From Love Gun and God of Thunder to I Was Made For Loving You and Is That You.. if they could have gone from Alive 2 to Creatures of the Night, it would have been a lot better.
These are my top 3:
- The Elder
- Not taking good mental care of Eric Carr
- Not being able to put Paul’s petty issues aside and giving us a RNRHOF jam with Ace & Peter
not hanging it up after the 'Farewell' tour
Phantom of the Park. Clearly.
Cult Classic man.
Not kicking gene Simmons out and keeping Cher instead
What 😆 🤣 😂 😹
The Elder. Fans needed a hard rock/heavy metal album big time so they cut their hair, copied the "new romantic" look and let everyone down.
I was 13 and a huge fan. I put the album on and the only song I liked was "I". That's it. I was so disappointed I think I actually cried
The Arena Football team was fun, (we went to every home game), but the league folded. Darn.
I watched the reality show for that
I feel like they’ll try again, more sports franchises coming lately.
Getting mark to do the animalize album the riffs in the songs would’ve sounded so much better if Bruce was the one doing the riffs for the songs as the songs on the animalize tour sounded amazing with Bruce playing them
Huh?
Going pop and not correcting it with an album like Creatures of the Night immediately. Instead they did The Elder and almost immolated themselves in the process.
Oh, and not locking Vini Poncia out of any studio Kiss was at recording.
I honestly wish the Elder was a double album without I am just a boy and Fanfare on it. Other than those two, I love it.
I feel Creatures of the Night was - a solid solid way for KISS musically to enter the 80s. They coulda took off the makeup but kept that heavier sound. It's so easy for us to play rear view mirror but I dunno.
But maybe that wouldn't have done as well with MTV as Lick It Up/Animalize.
The KISS Demon wrestler was absolutely stupid
The Elder
Not the worst, but they should’ve done an Alive with their 80s lineups
Not hanging in there with Eric Carr up until the end. I've heard conflicting stories but whatever really happened I don't think was good for his morale. I keep thinking about how Def Leppard's drummer lost an arm. An arm! And they waited for him. He's still with them to this day as far as I know. KISS could've done the same.
Continuing after Peter and Ace left the reunion. At that point I would have rather seen them reunite the Revenge lineup and pick up where that lineup left off rather than make Tommy and Eric put on the makeup
Yes
Being cheap.
Unmasked. With contemporaries releasing heavy albums (Think Scorps, AC/DC, Judas Priest, Van Halen, Sabbath, Maiden), KISS released a flaccid pop album. If they had released an album as Thunderous as Creatures instead, they may have able to hold on to some of their 70’s credibility.
Ditching the makeup and using backing tracks
Not finding a way to work towards making a show with all former members getting on stage and playing a song or two/jamming all together, or something in that ballpark. We know Gene and Paul kept it together through the years, so it's no disrespect on them, but it's a collective effort, and not doing it that way fails to recognize that fact. Also, despite the complications of having to do the "herding cats" thing with the many former members getting on the same page, the amount of dough they could have charged for a show doing something so unique that most would not put that much effort towards, the pay day would have been huge for all involved. Then again, if I were in my 70's, perhaps seeing time left and energy levels at that point, maybe I'd see things differently.
So a second less complicated error: non-make-up era, bringing in Kulik and Carr on more songs as lead vocalists. "Little Cesar" and "I Walk Alone" both kick some pretty serious a$$ in their own ways, JMHO.
All of 1978, except Ace's solo album
Don’t act like See You Tonight, and Man of 1000 Faces don’t exist.
Going unmasked
Not calling it a day years ago
Continuing the tribute act after Ace left in 2002.
Remixing songs for Smashes, Thrashes etc
Having diverse music right from the start. Then albums like Dynasty and the Elder would have been accepted better.
Getting Tommy Thayer instead of Bruce. They became a legacy band somehow even with their new music.
Coming back after 2001.
Should have taken the makeup off the moment Ace and Peter's contracts were off.
Cutting Peter from the group
KISS meets the Phantom
The 80s
Gene Simmons as devil interview
KISS vs. The Phantom of the Park.
Allowing Eric and Tommy to dress as Peter and Ace.
It's a tie between going disco/pop in the late 70's and everything post 2001.
Not getting rid of Peter Criss earlier. The incident at the Chinese restaurant and his constant threats to quit the band should have been more red flags than at a Soviet May Day parade. Peter’s constant complaining, his violent nature, his outright racist attitude, and his declining or stagnant skills due to laziness and substance abuse not only held back the band for at least 2-3 years but also caused undue stress and ill will between the members despite their success. I can only blame Gene and Paul for this, as in the rush of getting a drummer they picked the first one they ran into instead of auditioning and interviewing people as they did when they found Ace. By then Gene and Paul had been in bands and had recorded music so they were already experienced in dealing and to a point knowing how musicians are, if they are good , mediocre, easy to get along with or full of manure. Peter raised all the red flags but were ignored. To this day Peter lies about his ‘contributions’ which aren’t many. Amazingly such a “skilled” person would have been grabbed by multiple bands upon his “resignation from the job”, but no band did, and this was still at the height of popularity of hard rock music. When Eric Carr joined the band it was as if KISS was suddenly rejuvenated and hungry again. What a difference a drummer makes !
Letting Paul get away with designing non-symmetrical makeup. He broke the pattern the others had and any photos from one side of the stage make him look like a regular person with a regular face. He should have stuck with the Bandit.
The bandit makeup sucks and doesn't fit with the theme of the band. I doubt they'd have had the staying power if he would've kept that dumb design.
I disagree. If he’d stuck with that make up, it would seem normal to us, and we would be cringing at the idea that he considered going with a single star.
If he'd have stuck with that makeup, they wouldn't have been around long enough for us to even care.
Not making Creatures and instead making the ghastly Unmasked and Elder.
You need to take a trip to Naked City. It really is Easy as it Seems.
The Elder
Taking off the makeup.
Letting Vinnie Vincent play with them
Not taking off the makeup earlier
Retiring - blame paul for that
And thinking the avatars would replace them
Surely a kiss 2.0 would have made a better choice
Kerns, Fitz , Tichy , Zach , Jeremy , Sebastian (take your pick on the drummer)
Hiring Peter.
The 84-91 Era.
Bad years for Gene. Classic Paul. Who wants to be lonely Thrills in the Night, Under the Gun.
Agree to disagree. UH All Night. Let’s Put the X in Sex. Now compare that garbage to Strutter and Detroit Rock City.
‘Put your hand in my pocket grab onto my rocket’ isn’t exactly Dylan. Also, Hot in The Shade has some great tracks. Silver Spoon, Rise to it.
Getting downvoted by the Johnny-come-latelies.
Making the band name public domain or some shit like that
Working with Desmond Child. Dude just writes a bunch of generic Bon Jovi-esque rock.
Letting Gene and Paul be in charge.
Maybe ending the band when Peter left.
..not ending the band after Love Gun.
Firing vinnie
Music from The Elder
Let Me Know
Making "Music From The Elder" and "Carnival Of Souls"! 💩
Creating new characters for Eric and Vinnie.
You mean not creating new characters for Eric #2 and Thomas.
No I mean creating new characters in the first place was a terrible idea. It should have remained the same four. If they cast a new actor in a musical they don’t change the character. That’s where most of the animosity towards Eric Singer and Tommy Thayer comes from. Probably would have never happened if they stuck with the original four characters (minus the paintless era of course).
You obviously don't get what the characters were... Or at least what they were supposed to be.
They were representative of each member's inner persona. Sure, as employees, Eric & Vinnie's were created for them, but them wearing Peter & Ace's makeup would have been seen as a complete betrayal of what the band claimed to be and a slap in Peter & Ace's faces. For many long-time fans, it's still seen that way with Singer & Thayer.
The OG four weren't just playing characters. Those characters were the people behind them. KISS was Ace, Gene, Peter & Paul... Not Spaceman, Demon, Catman & Starchild. Slapping Peter & Ace's personas on new members would have put more nails in the coffin than were already there.
Beyond that, fans didn't have any issues with the new characters. None at all. Don't drink the purple Kool Aid. The new characters had nothing to do with KISS' downfall. That had already happened prior to the new characters with Dynasty, Unmasked, and KISS' family friendly, cartoon phase.
Riding the nostalgia train between Psycho Circus and sonic boom… Paul’s voice was still stellar could have had a couple more albums