American workers earn more than their developed peers even after adjusting for hours worked
DD & AnalysisI'll go with someone showing up referencing some older relative who dug ditches for a living in the 1970s yet had a vacation home, put six kids through college, and went on luxurious international vacations every year.
I can get you and your significant other a job making $24 an hour at a metal manufacturer in Dayton, Ohio right now. In 2 years it'll be $30+. You'll both work about 10 hours of overtime a week.
You 2 will be making $171,600 a year — so able afford a $600,000 home in the Midwest. The good news, in the Midwest, you can get a great home for $200k or $250k. Use the rest for kids' college, extra home, and luxurious international vacations.
You don't need a degree even. But... You'll spend 50 hours a week in a 100 degree factory running and fixing presses .
Ping me.
24x40 + 10x36 = 1320 1320x52 = 68,640 68,640x2 = 137,280
Not that it matters, but you just added 35k for some reason?
35k is only one kidney in the current organ market. They've got four kidneys between them. Do the math
maybe it was the math after the raise to $30/hr
In 2 years it’ll be $30+
Apologies, calculated off the $30 an hour total. And the number fluctuates wildly depending on if you're the guy who picks up 25 hours a week in OT, or the one who's fights every hour of OT assigned to them.
Good thing that we only need a few million jobs of this type for the middle class to be back in business.
Well, about 1 in 10 Americans who work in the US are in manufacturing. They're hiring right now in New Bremen, Ohio and at a few places I know of in Cincinnati and Dayton.
They can't get the floors staffed enough at the plants in New Bremen. They had to turn on manufacturing lines in the Germany plants to even come close to keeping up with production needs for the fork trucks they make. Lots to do, few people want the jobs. If you know anyone who can work with their hands, ping me. I'll get them in contact with folk who can get them a job.
What I want to know, is how are the people who aren’t filling these jobs making a living? I highly doubt they’re making more money doing something else, like Uber Eats or filling a higher wage job like computer programming.
Do the work. It's 10 and 12-hour shifts. It's high speed and repetitive and not fun. We'd hire guys to work material handling job (very starting position). The job was taping up boxes and stacking them on a skid. It's just lifting 25 pound boxes, tape, stack, move to the next machine. Repeat. Load empty boxes onto machine to fill.
Eighty percent of new hires didn't return for a second week of work.
If you worked there for a year +, you'd move to a mechanic spot if you worked hard and checked production and didn't let bad product go out the door.
After 5 years, I was a master mechanic making the equivalent of $40ish an hour. I didn't miss days or even hours of work coming in late. They paid for my engineering degree and I worked my way off the floor.
One can do well, but it's not easy work. As mentioned, 1 in 10 Americans work in manufacturing. It's not for everyone though.
Redditors don't actually want to work. Easier to complain on Reddit than work.
Yep. Also in SW Ohio. We are dying for good tradesman. My company has been trying to hire qualified industrial maintenance techs to pay 6 figures with outstanding benefits and we can hardly find anyone.
In 2 years it'll be $30+
Lol, I've heard this before.
As long as manufacturing and certain trades continue to have trouble hiring, pay will keep increasing in those sectors.
Or the existing crews will rake in all the OT to make up for it.
Shipyards in Newport News, Virginia are hiring like crazy for entry level welders, pipe fitters, and painters starting at 25/hr with benefits. That is for zero experience, they train you. HIgh School diploma is preferred, not required.
25/hr to weld is fucking garbage. I work with guys who would wipe their ass with that kind of offer.
It is for an experienced welder. That’s the pay for someone whose never welded before in their life
That's 25/hrs to go to school to learn to weld with full medical and 401k. Also, per Indeed, the AVERAGE hourly income in the U.S. for welders is $22. You also appear to be comparing what an experienced welder makes to the starting salary with zero experience.
He’s probably thinking of the guys who went to trade school and not the guys who dropped out at 16 who are losers and don’t really know what they wanna do and have no experience.
25 for a dropout is insane imo.
I dropped out of school at 16. I'm a licensed plumber, med gas certified and many other certifications. Making more than my wife with 2 college degrees. I'm winning 😎
I'm sure you put in the same if not more effort to attain that as some with college degrees.
A LOT of effort. Way more than sitting in a classroom. But honestly, I wouldn't have it any other way.
My oldest son is going into the military. He'll be going to (with any luck) the Air Force Academy or an ROTC college. I think that's a great path as well.
It's really just about making use of your natural gifts. For me that was commercial construction and I don't regret. My son wants tobf I the military and I think he will do great. And others do great as doctors or lawyers. It just depends, I think
I work at that shipyard started zero experience and make $27.4 an hour and can make up to $54.8 on the weekends
And I was making $25 an hour doing far less in a much better temperature. With raises after 6 months.
You make it sound like that's a really good amount of pay for being in 110° factory all day. With all this overtime I guess nobody's having kids. And if they do you forgot to factor in child care which costs equal too if not more than housing. Someone's got to pick them up from school and take them to school, at least until they're old enough for the bus. Never mind the fact you won't be home to raise your kids, go to their games help them with homework but at least you'll be getting that good overtime money. Unfortunately that overtime money is historically what you would have gotten paid hourly had wages not been cut so much in the last few decades. Productivity has gone up significantly but your pay hasn't. The profits of the corporations have also gone up significantly, the pay for the CEOs has gone way up. The only people who aren't reaping the benefits of all of that profit are the workers who do the work.
This is a quote from the Morning Call newspaper in an article written in 1985.
"The average steelworker earned $13.53 an hour last year, 13 cents an hour more than in 1983. But the industry’s “total labor cost” and pensions – averaged out to about $21.30 an hour for each worker, according to the American Iron and Steel Institute.
The “total cost” figure was down 91 cents from 1983 and $2.48 since 1982, when the industry’s employment costs reached an all-time high of $23.78 an hour, the AISI said."
$13.53 an hour and today's money would be $37.87
In 1985 the average cost of a house in Dayton Ohio was $54,750 while today the median house costs $189,000.
What's the 401K like? Pensions? Health coverage? Union?
I'm not saying it's not a good job in comparison to many others out there I'm just not comfortable with the complacency towards corporations squeezing all of us dry for every penny we've got and then we turn around and have the Supreme Court do things like criminalizing homelessness as though people aren't forced into that situation by companies making billions and billions of dollars in profit every year.
I needed you 15 years ago.
But 15 years ago, it wasn't 25+ an hour. Still, the UAW is big in Cincinnati and surrounding areas. Toyota too. Lots of manufacturing has to compete with the big union shops, so they all pay pretty good around here.
That's cool and all, but I'ma be real with you, I'd rather be homeless than live in Dayton, Ohio.
Math isn’t mathing here.
For context a biglaw lawyer in my country will take about 8 years to earn 70-80k USD a year.
Yes 2 people each working "50 hours a week in a 110 degree factory" week after week, year after year with no breaks, earn plenty to support their family. Yeah you're not living in a cool, happening city - but most of your life is sweating in the factory, commuting to/from the factory, or resting and refueling for your upcoming shift at the factory so where you live doesn't matter anyway.
I don't think anybody doubts your description. But while the "dug ditches for a living in the 1970s yet had a vacation home, put six kids through college, and went on luxurious international vacations" is hyperbole, plenty of reddit posts assert that 1 person could work hard to support a family including vacations.
(I suspect the "good old days" work situation was actually closer to your factory scenario though.)
What's even better is they Are all trying to go back in time, to an era they would hate. Sky high gas, interest rates, inflation.
The homeownership rates are the same today as it was in the 70s and 80s.
Don't forget horrible pollution, rampant sexism/racism and a chance of being drafted to Vietnam (or having your husband drafted to Vietnam).
When you’re done with that strawman, may I use it to protect my crops?
I like that, do you mind if I use it in the future? I'll attribute, of course.
You are welcome to it, my friend.
Then bring up something about wealth inequality, even though that has no effect on your actual wealth.
Nah, dawg, to be able to afford all that, they would have at the very least had the fry station McJob, I wasn't around to see it, but I'm told back in the old days, when dinosaurs still roamed the earth, it was indeed possible. By the time I had a McJob in the late 80s in high school, those days were long gone, though. I barely made enough for spending money, and I didn't have any financial responsibilities except spending money!
No. But it is worthwhile to examine how money is spent. Do Americans just make more, or do they also have a higher standard of living? What we want is higher standard of living but, for example, if we make 20% more, but also spend 50% more for our healthcare, do we end up better off? That is the real question. As Americans, we want to earn more in order to have a higher standard of living
How is the US economy the strongest? The average American can’t afford a 2,500 square foot house or a $125M F150. We’re basically a third world country.
I mean yeah this proves that on average American workers make more.
Doesn't necessarily mean our economy is amazing.
On average - I suspect that average is buoyed by 800 billionaires. Median would be a better indicator
On average - I suspect that average is buoyed by 800 billionaires. Median would be a better indicator
My point being that the intention of the post is clear but the response I am speaking on is making it seem like good income = good economy.
I was mostly agreeing. There’s a bunch of people trolling on the fact the US has the worlds strongest economy while either not acknowledging or not understanding that wealth inequality, lack of other social goods, and the fact that corporate wealth in our economy increasingly does not = individual / household wealth means that these types of statistics don’t adequately convey the health of the typical American.
Okay I see now. Thank you for explaining that to me, and I agree wholeheartedly.
Wasn't there a study done about income for a certain generation and Mark Zuckerberg alone inflated the numbers for the stat?
Maybe this isn’t the scale we should judge success by.
It's one of many scales that are used to judge the strength of an economy.
It’s a trap. Economic strength ≠ happiness for population.
If you go to the website, they have a dozen other indicators. The US does not lead most of those
Tbf this disposable income is just net income after taxes, and doesn't account for the fact that in germany for example, healthcare costs will not eat into this amount nearly as much as it will for Americans. Idk about generally, but I for one spend more than 13% of my after tax income on healthcare.
It includes social transfers in kind, which comprise of things like public healthcare.
This disposable income is adjusted for all these factors. It's adjusted for government transfers such as free healthcare as well as cost of living.
In fact it's more favorable to poorer countries because they use PPP adjustment which considers things like a poverty spec diesel to be equivalent to a fully optioned luxury car 3 times the price.
This is only possible because the dollar is so strong relative to other currencies. If we adjust it via purchasing power and add in the fact that in the US you have to pay for stuff like healthcare while its free in other countries, the US starts falling way behind.
This is adjusted for social transfers such as free healthcare
"I work part-time at a non-profit and somehow can't afford to pay rent in the trendiest neighborhoods of Miami, NYC and LA. What's wrong with this country!?"
career barista and I can’t afford a 2BR apartment on south beach for me and my dog
This economy sucks
But they do understand economics/finance. They understand that it is not designed to benefit them. That is a reasonable and accurate conclusion.
Strongest economy doesnt mean money for the people lol.
Kinda. We spend more on welfare than Canada but less than European countries so it's not like our country isn't generous unless you think Canadian welfare also sucks ass.
Yeah, this is obvious to anyone with a functioning brain. The US has the highest standards of living in the world. The ‘poors’ of Reddit are in the top 1% wealthiest people in the world, despite how much they want to rage about US bad.
The ‘poors’ of Reddit are in the top 1% wealthiest people in the world, despite how much they want to rage about US bad.
We live in the most privileged time in the most prosperous nation and we’ve become completely blind to it. Virtually no one in the United States is considered poor by global standards. Yet, in a time where we can order a product off Amazon with one click and have it at our doorstep the next day, we are unappreciative, unsatisfied, and ungrateful.
We have people who are dying to get into our country. People around the world destitute and truly impoverished. Yet, we have a young generation convinced they’ve never seen prosperity, and as a result, elect politicians dead set on taking steps towards abolishing capitalism. Why? The answer is this, my generation has ONLY seen prosperity. We have no contrast. We didn’t live in the great depression, or live through two world wars, or see the rise and fall of socialism and communism. We don’t know what it’s like not to live without the internet, without cars, without smartphones. We don’t have a lack of prosperity problem. We have an entitlement problem, an ungratefulness problem, and it’s spreading like a plague.
When my Eastern European boomer parents visit my US suburban home, they never stop talking about how the most mundane American stuff amazes them.
Not only a washer and a dryer, but A WHOLE ROOM dedicated to doing laundry?
A garage that can fit THREE CARS?
Lawn sprinklers that you can control from your phone?
My mum is a private equity exec and my dad heads a f500 level company. By the nature of my dads work he travels a lot, and praises stuff in the US and Europe all the time. Like our standard of living is in the 0.0001% of my country, yet stuff from the developed world is always praised, from the culture to infrastructure to whatnot.
The only thing they like here in India better is cheap labour and the entire family being close.
Sounds rough. Hang in there man
glances casually at the scores of homeless people in my rural town, with $1700 1bdrm apartments and a median household income of $50k
Soooooo awesome.
You just proved that person's point.
50k is top 1% of the world
I'm in an upper middle income country, so higher purchasing power than the majority of the world. Average rent is about 100% of the average income. This is probably the most affordable it's ever been. You're just proving the other guy's point.
If people in the past were "grateful" we wouldn't have any of this. It's up to us to continue improving our standard of life and fight for better working conditions, affordable housing/healthcare, and more convenient public infrastructure. America's doing pretty great, but we can do a whole lot better.
The people during the Renaissance era had it better than the people in the Middle ages, and the people in the Middle ages had it better than the Cave men era. The " we don't know what it's like and the current generation is lazy " Stichk has been repeated over and over through history. However considering the advancements each generation makes, the good ole lazy talk is just an excuse to shut down any form of criticism.
Believe it or not, one of the earliest bits of writing we have from Plato is him being angry and talking about how lazy the next generation was becoming because they were adopting writing and how it was going to make them lazy and stupid.
Uh... most people 30 and over lived without the internet and smartphones for a large portion of our lives. I didn't have a cellphone until college and didn't have a smartphone until junior year. Also, my family never had a car, we walked, or we took a taxi (and I live in the suburbs not a major city).
I have absolutely lived without prosperity and so have lots of other people. At one point we lived in an illegal quasi-boarding house with no kitchen and one bathroom shared between all the tenants on the floor. I have also lived in a motel and played "turn all the lights off and pretend you're not home so the landlord will go away" game.
Oh really now? Ask a teacher or two out in rural America about the kinds of conditions a huge amount of their students go home to. Or take a drive through West Virginia sometime. There are rampant levels of third world squalor here in America.
Please tell me more, how did you get yourself out of generational poverty? Or have you never wanted for anything in your life and assume that nobody else has either?
Must be a total coincidence that financial security as a child is the biggest predictor of future economic success
In my company, I know that I get paid more than my counterparts in Europe. The reason is because we have a lower safety net, we have larger medical deductibles, higher medical and pharmaceutical expenses, and we don’t have a long notice period if we get fired.
It just means that I have to save more for a rainy day fund, if I lose my job I lose all my benefits. Also, the US isn’t as cheap as it was in the 80’s and 90’s. International Companies realise this and pay US employees more.
Do you seriously think that the average American has a higher standard of living than the average Swede, Dane, Norwegian, Icelander or Swiss?
If you work at a grocery store in America, you are most likely scraping by, living paycheck to paycheck, one emergency from getting into real financial trouble.
Meanwhile in these countries you can work in a grocery store and afford to save, while having state guaranteed 4+ weeks PTO where you can also afford to go on vacation and enjoy yourself.
The US is a great country to live in if you have a good job, but for a lot of Americans they would be way better of living in a nordic country doing the same shit.
Absolutely. The average American has far more spending money than the average in those countries. We live in much bigger houses, drive much more expensive cars, eat more expensive meals, buy more expensive clothes and luxuries, etc.
You have a wildly distorted view of how the rest of the world lives.
Absolutely. The average American has far more spending money than the average on those countries. We live in much bigger houses, drive much more expensive cars, eat more expensive meals, buy more expensive clothes and luxuries, etc.
So because your stuff is bigger and more expensive you have a higher standard of living?
Do a quick google search for me: "top 10 countries by standard of living"
You have a wildly distorted view of how the rest of the world lives.
I can near guarantee that I have a way more realistic view of how the rest of the world lives than you do pal. I've lived in at least 2 countries for more than 3 months on every continent in the world except Oceania, meanwhile your sorry ass probably hasn't even been on a plane lol
The average American isn't working in a grocery store so I don't quite get your comparison. Compare your average job in the U.S. to the average job in Sweden and, arguably, the standard of living is higher.
You are probably too stupid to understand the difference between median and average salary so I'm not gonna entertain you until you prove you understand that.
About half of americans have a job which is equivalent to working at a grocery store, so I think it is quite an average thing.
LOL, I literally have a Ph.D. in business. I've always found it impressive how many redditors get pissed off when you point out that the U.S. isn't as bad as they think.
LOL, I literally have a Ph.D. in business.
So you understand that the average salary is almost completely worthless when determining how the average person is doing economically then?
I've always found it impressive how many redditors get pissed off when you point out that the U.S. isn't as bad as they think.
I'm not saying the US is bad, I'm saying that claiming the US has the highest standard of living out of any country in the world is absurd. And you guys have a real problem with how you treat the worse off in your country.
Your example was comparing the average grocery store worker in each country when that isn't the average job people in each country holds. If you want to argue about the lowest income people in the U.S. compared with the lowest income people in Sweden, go for it - I don't have/haven't looked at data to discuss. But that's not what is being discussed.
Median income(wage of the average person) is lower in the US than for example Norway, Denmark and Switzerland.
Your example was comparing the average grocery store worker in each country when that isn't the average job people in each country holds
What would you call an average job? Grocery store was just something that I would consider an average job in my head, in my country, Norway, you make about median wage working at a grocery store.
I guess a part of the confusion is that there aren't really "low income" jobs in the nordics. If you work fulltime you are doing good for yourself no matter what essentially.
I would call the "average job" one that is around the median wage in the U.S. But if you're asking about literally the average job you can look at the tables from BLS here - Employed persons by detailed occupation, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (bls.gov)
I'm not sure where you're getting data for Norway, Denmark, etc. but this says U.S. is #2 Median income - Wikipedia
I would call the "average job" one that is around the median wage in the U.S. But if you're asking about literally the average job you can look at the tables from BLS here - Employed persons by detailed occupation, sex, race, and Hispanic or Latino ethnicity : U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics (bls.gov)
I don't think statistics can meaningfully determine the average job, but just give me an example of a job that ln average pays median wage.
I'm not sure where you're getting data for Norway, Denmark, etc. but this says U.S. is #2 Median income - Wikipedia
This is median income and PPP, I was just looking at median income. Which gave me 38k$ for US and 54k$ for Denmark
But anyway I would consider people in the bottom half also part of your average person. If you cut people into 4 parts based on their income, I think people in the second lowest bracket are still "average" people, but a lot of them are barely scraping by in the US.
No, it doesn’t. It ranked ten-ish.
By disposable household income it’s #1.
That’s not standard of living ranking.
Standard of living rankings are pretty subjective.
This. In most developed nations, it's a matter of preference. Most homes in the US have air conditioning, whereas most of Europe doesn't, but it would be asinine to say a handful of things make the standard of living in one country objectively better than another.
The poors of reddit or homeless people? They have an entire sub for people who homeless
American homeless are in the top 50% of all people in terms of living standards. Absolutely noone in America starves to death and tent cities in america have better water access than many countries. Nobody in America knows what poor is.
But but but America bad.
This is disposable income not earnings. You guys need to read the chart titles and then understand what you're actually looking at before commenting.
People spend 5 seconds on their analysis and 10 minutes on comments.
I'm guessing that money paid for health insurance is considered part of disposable income, which probably accounts for some of the disparity—most Europeans pay the equivalent in taxes.
What about after all taxes and things people get for their taxes that we still have to pay out of pocket for
This actually takes into account these sorts of transfers from the government, Americans still come out on top.
Maybe the former (arguably partially as everything is seldom accounted for) but not the latter.
What do you mean?
Is property taxes properly accounted for? All the different sales and use taxes?
What about health insurance/care or college that other countries get included?
Yes; Americans make more.
However; we also get less for our taxes back.
Yes, everything is accounted.
Curious how it accounts for US medical bills bankrupting families (e.g., cancer treatments, emergency surgeries, etc.). A scenario not really existing with the developed peers. Crippling college debt affecting millions? I think there are some caveats to this. A case of "the data doesn't lie," but it can surely be misinterpreted and mischaracterized.
Medical bankruptcies are not very common in the U.S. (around 600K per year in a country with a population with over 330M people. Basically 1 out of 500 people (rough estimate).
I own a few healthcare businesses and even if you file medical bankruptcy, it's not always straightforward that it's a financially crippling event.
Actually, that 600k figure is probably wildly exaggerated too.
Well it includes ‘social transfers in kind’, such as public healthcare or public education. But how many Americans go bankrupt over healthcare, 0.004%? Or something infinitely small, it’s not that big of an issue.
Nothing is that big of an issue when you boil human beings down to percentages wise guy. It’s 530k Americans annually that file for bankruptcy because of healthcare costs btw, that seem like a small number to you?
This isn't remotely controversial.
Americans live in huge houses. Buy the most shit, the most cars. The American consumer reigns supreme. This isn't news
The Americans in Mexico and Brazil disagree.
This is after taxes, and it uses Purchasing Power Parity, which accounts for the other things.
What do you think disposable income is? Income after cost of living
All accounted for. This is income after taxes, government transfers such as free healthcare and education(this is added to the countries with these things), and adjusted for cost of living using the PPP which is favorable to poorer countries.
Redditors just don't want to face reality that the rest of the world is much poorer than the US.
Unsurprisingly, America also has the most centi-millionaires (9,850) and billionaires (788) as well. 🇺🇸 U.S. Note: Data current to December, 2023. Far behind the U.S. in all three metrics, China is the next country with the most millionaires (862,400) and billionaires (305).
Think this might skew the percentages?
Are we sure this is correct? I was born and raised in Germany our wages are low while cost of living is somewhat high for EU standards. There is no way our disposable income is the highest in Europe let alone the second highest in the world.
Edit: I googled it yes the EU countries are all messed up. Germany is #13 (equivalised disposable income) #4 (not equivalised disposable income).
This is disposable income, not income
I’m aware, it’s incorrect. Germany’s disposable income is not that high. The only thing that is correct is the US.
social transfers are included, which will make quite a dramatic change comparatively to what numbers eurostat (which doesnt account for it) gives for example
Employment Differences Between US and Europe
Employment at-will vs. job security
One of the most significant differences between employment practices in the US and Europe is the concept of at-will employment. In the US, most employment relationships are at-will, meaning that either the employer or the employee can terminate the relationship at any time and for any reason (if it is not discriminatory). This provides a great deal of flexibility for employers but can also result in job insecurity for workers.
In contrast, European countries generally have more robust employment protections and regulations, including laws that make it more difficult for employers to terminate employees without cause. For example, in most of Europe, employers are required to provide notice to employees before terminating their employment and must have a valid reason for doing so. This provides workers with a greater degree of job security, but it can also make it more difficult for businesses to change their workforce when necessary.
Benefits and Social Protection
There are significant differences in the benefits and social protections that are provided to workers in the US and Europe. In the US, employers are generally not required to provide benefits such as health insurance, paid parental leave, or retirement benefits. While some companies offer these benefits voluntarily, many workers in the US do not have access to them. As an example, in the US healthcare is largely provided through private insurance, and many people rely on their employers to provide health insurance coverage. This means that access to healthcare is often tied to employment, and those who lose their jobs may also lose their healthcare coverage.
However, European countries generally have more robust social protections, including universal healthcare, paid parental leave, and retirement benefits. These benefits are often funded through taxes and provide a safety net for workers who may experience job loss, illness, or other challenges. As an example, in most European countries there are universal healthcare systems that provide coverage to all citizens, regardless of employment status in comparison to the US approach.
Working Hours and Vacation Time
Another significant difference between employment practices in the US and Europe is the amount of vacation time and working hours. In the US, there is no federal requirement for paid vacation time, and most workers receive between 10 and 15 days of paid time off per year. In contrast, many European countries have legally mandated vacation time, ranging from 20 to 30 days per year.
Additionally, European countries tend to have shorter working hours than the US. For example, in France, the legal maximum working week is 35 hours, while in the US, there is no legal maximum. This can result in a better work-life balance for European workers but can also make it more difficult for businesses to operate around the clock.
I'm not saying there's a right or wrong answer here. Instead, what I'm saying is that each person has to ask themselves what they prefer:
- Get paid more but get fewer benefits and less job security.
- Get paid less but get better benefits and better job security.
In addition to that, you have to look at the cost of living in different regions to get a more complete picture of what's going on. Europeans might get paid less than Americans on average, but is their cost of living lower, too?
I’ll take 1. I’m an adult. Pretty okay with ensuring my own job security. Also good with earning my benefits.
This is adjusted for disparities in working hours and cost of living.
Either way, I'll take option 1.
Is this surprising to people? The richest country in the world has the richest people in the world, what a surprise.
Yeah what does this prove exactly? Like what’s the point here?
The replies are proving that a lot of rich people living in the richest country on earth during its richest time period somehow were fooled into thinking they’re on a level with Albanians and Denmark as a country is richer than Crystal City.
Too bad I’m spending that money in the US.
Corporate guy here and I would trade some of that for a culture that values and encourages time off and vacation
Preach! Hell I would trade some of that if it meant not worrying about losing my healthcare or becoming homeless in a month if I lose my job.
We just get fucked on the margins more.
The toxic positivity in these comment is hilarious, but if Steven Pinker is y'alls dad, I guess it's nice he helps you cope.
Looks like they are using the poverty line to determine the cost of living. This is the same bs that's being done in other government statistics.
I'm curious how they calculate disposable income for the entire nation. Not only does cost of living vary vastly across the nation, the standard of living likely is different too.
Hate these comparisons because they are meaningless, but they keep popping up here ....
You work here, you live here, you spend here, and that impacts you. Your wages and its relationship to your spending (so earnings and retention of earnings) is only relative to the country you live in. Other countries' costs dont matter unless you are telecommuting, thus their relationship to YOUR wage is relevant.
Comparisons to other countries like this is just a way to make you feel bad if you complain about not being able to make it.... when most people are struggling to make it right now. So, they are trying to say " shut up and take it, and don't push back because someone in Ghana makes less than you".... stupid take.
What's the agenda here OP?
Europeans really are just clueless about the world outside of their tiny bubble of connected nations. Yes, we make more money than you even considering current inflation, taxes, healthcare, work hours, etc. Thats just how it goes when your economy runs the world.
Their countries on an individual level are completely irrelevant. If one just disappeared the world would be marginally impacted. If the US disappeared the collective might of the ME and China would devour them. Could you imagine the state Europe would be in without big brother US military constantly having their back? Even as a collective Europe is just important enough to be the US’s child needing constant attention, support and protection.
But yea America bad because guns or whatever BS they need to tell themselves.
The Real Wage Gap is living outside USA
Europoors seething in the comments lol. Any first gen immigrant knows how great the USA is if you're industrious and willing to work your ass off.
yeah, it is the greatest country in the world.
To bad our taxes go to everyone else across the world. We get nothing in return.
Cue lazy crybabies making excuses on Reddit instead of getting shit done.
duh?
Duh America is number one. If people would only go with facts instead of feelings. Some people swear America stinks and praise other countries while living in America and never have even visited the other countries they claim are better and it’s so good here they still never leave lol. And millions every year risk their lives to move here while the same can’t be said for other countries.
I was shocked when I learned how little Europeans made
But, but rich people and corporations and minimum wage and ma livin' wage and my soy latte and greed and oh...this doesn't fit the narrative at all!!
This chart obscures the issues. A quick search puts the average disposable income in the US (per capita) at 55k, the highest in the world. The average total income is 105k with a median of 74k. These are great numbers. While they're true, they don't measure how different income/wealth groups experience the economy.
The 55k average disposable income is higher than total income for 40 - 45 percent of the population. As a side note I couldn't find an exact number so I estimated from data this site:
https://www.statista.com/statistics/203183/percentage-distribution-of-household-income-in-the-us/
Americans also do very well on median disposable income.
Isnt this due to taxes as well, since it is disposable income, so during illness for instance they have to use of that pool
Taxes work in America’s favor, but this chart includes social transfers paid to households by the government as well.
I mean is this taking into account that everywhere else in the world Healthcare is free, and thus our taxes are higher, but also our disposable income is relatively higher, since we dont have to fork 2k just to see the dentist?
Yes it does take that into account. This data is compiled by the OECD using national accounts, and what they do is essentially observe income a household receives - taxes + social transfers in cash and in kind. In kind social transfers include healthcare or education provided by the governments.
For more, see here
100% of what?
This graphic doesn't make any sense to me.
The benchmark is the American disposable income, so Germany's income is 82% that of America's.
So if an American has $1.00 of disposable income, a German citizen will have $0.82?
How in the hell is this even calculated, as 'disposable income' varies widely (widely is not a strong enough term) from one person to the next.
Remove the wealthiest 1% of earners and the US would drop considerably.
The US does very well on MEDIAN incomes too.
U.S. median disposable income is highest in the world as well...
No way in hell this is true, everything sucks in the US where we work longer hours for less pay and benefits than any other country on earth. Plus, everything is free in those other countries including healthcare, tuition, child care, etc.
Are you telling me the stuff I've been reading from random strangers on reddit is untrue?
I always thought it was nuts that Americans would casually talk about earning six figures. Thats $150K in my currency. You’re not earning that much in my country unless you’re a lawyer, a doctor, an executive, or a very senior IT programmer of some sort. That’s nuts.
Now adjust for COL
The data is adjusted for PPP.
Im just curious is this with health care included?
Yes
This goes against the grain here.
The idea I was taught for sending production overseas was that we wanted American jobs to focus on high value production. We’d make the missiles and microwaves domestically and the socks and widgets abroad. Except, when then started sending high tech manufacturing jobs abroad as well.
thats because the US economy has largely shifted to service not production.
so now those who own the sock and missile factories get served by those who dont
$60K in Tampa, FL is a helluva lot different than $60K in Vietnam.
its the growing gap between the poor and the people in this chart and thats the problem in the US.
and that gap between the haves and the have nots grows every day
Do we know why this data is from 2021? It seems the newest OECD report just released in the past few weeks but there are a decent couple of spots where the data being referenced is 3-4 years old. Is that pretty standard for these large macroeconomic datasets? I imagine it isn’t incredibly easy data to get
Is this median or mean? Does disposable income count income before or after health insurance premiums and student loans are paid?
I could earn a higher hourly rate in the US, but I'm happy living somewhere with universal health care and reasonable higher education costs.
It's a mean, but you can find medians here (albeit they're not as elaborate as the mean data).
This data also takes the value of publicly provided healthcare or education into account when calculating disposable household income. It is [income + social transfers in cash and 'in kind' received] - [taxes paid].
For more, see here again.
The more I travel to different countries the more I notice how rich we are as americans.
Disposable income != benefits.
I’m not saying the American QoL is bad, but when we compare the perks of living in, say, Germany, which highly functional public transport, commutable spaces, more paid vacation and paternity/maternity leaves (in general), cheaper education and healthcare, then compare trying to buy all that with the disposable income in the US you simply can’t compare. You’ll need an exceptionally high salary to afford to live in a city with European benefits.
Also, this is an average. The US has incredibly, filthy rich people. We also have poor people. We have the whole spectrum but the very wealthy always skew us to the right. Europeans, by contrast, fit much more in a bell curve with the majority of citizens making roughly similar amounts.
Going back to my first example: you can even have exceptionally poor disposable income and have a fantastic QoL in “underdeveloped” countries as a farmer for instance, with very little money that translates well to the USD but lots of perks of living “healthy” with home ownership, family support structures for childcare, “organic” fresh food, pleasant climate and access to nature, et cetera.
Numbers don’t meant anything without context. The context here is that Americans pay to choose what benefits they want, whereas many other places those benefits come intrinsic to the place itself. I’m not saying it’s bad to be American, but if you just look at this numbers at face value and your dedication is “Lol, retarded Americans complaint about being poor but they’re all rich everyone’s life is harder lol losers you don’t understand anything about finance and I’m a genius for understanding this nuance”… kind of sad. You can’t just boil down QoL into a single chart of numbers about disposable income.
Yes but, these numbers include social transfers in cash "in kind" (such as public healthcare, childcare, public transport etc).
German here. You’re correct the distribution is more squashed in Europe. But that’s largely drowned out by the difference in the mean (and the median!). Poor people in Germany can more or less compete with poor people in the US; middle class people in the US are much richer than middle class people in Germany. But poor people in the US are richer than poor people in Greece or Portugal, and middle class people in the US are rich by Greek standards.
How about after adjusting for inflation?
Germany number two? What nonsense is this …
What about based off the value against cost of living
Incoming “america bade” cope in the comments
WHY AM I STILL POOR
Can we please get analysis on this that isn’t during COVID lockdowns and that uses the median instead of the mean. Billionaires skew this horribly. This graph is useless for talking about how things are for most people today.
Is this gross or net? Because in other developed countries, the government actually helps its citizens with the tax dollars they take.
Net, and it also adjusts for social transfers.
What criteria did they use for disposable income
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Makes sense considering the US is the strongest global economy. I'm looking forward to the comments about not being able to afford x while not understanding economics/finance.