I wish I liked Malazan

TL;DR: This is more of a rant than anything, as I know there are lots of threads about this. I read the first book of Malazan and the beginning of the second one and will probably call it quits because I'm bored.

Oh boy. I wish I liked Malazan. I've been reading fantasy for a long time, but I never got around to reading the "big epics" that are Wheel of Time and Malazan. It doesn't help that I have always had a hard time focusing on things for a long time due to my ADHD, but I've learned to just DNF books that I don't like or can't focus on by now.

I jumped into Gardens of the Moon after hearing about its density, prepared to be overwhelmed and confused. However, I was really just bored. I didn't really understand what was going on, I didn't care about any of the characters or storylines (though some of them were really cool, and I did actually enjoy the prose). A huge cast of characters is fine with me, as long as all of them are well fleshed out and it's not a game of "wait, what were they doing before the perspective switched again?"

A book of GotM's size usually takes me one or two weeks to finish, depending on how busy I am with other things, but this book took me a month to get through, and I found myself skimming large parts of it.

Anyway, I decided to give it a second chance and started Deadhouse Gates anyway, having been convinced by the positive reviews saying that this is where things really kick off and get interesting. The first book is known to be the weakest one, after all.

Well, I'm now about 150 pages into DG and... I still don't really care. It doesn't feel different from the first book, it doesn't get clearer or more straightforward. I think I'm just going to skip this series, which is a bummer! I was so excited to immerse myself this huge ten-book epic. It's just not my cup of tea though, and that's alright.

Rant over. What did you think about these books? Did you force yourself to continue, and did it pay off for you?

in Fantasyby Mindless_Nebula4004

591

82%

11mo

AmericanLypo

335

11mo

I think it’s fine. Malazan is just one of those things that by design doesn’t have broad appeal. It hits hard for some and doesn’t for others. I actually wish fans would stop recommending it with such zeal. I love these books to death but they really aren’t meant for everyone. Just to be clear I’m not saying Malazan fans have better taste or anything. Just different styles of works appeal to different styles of folks. If you’re bored just drop it and move on.

Brodins_biceps

11mo

I feel the same way about the second apocalypse by R. Scott Bakker.

It’s… not for everyone. I first finished it and gushed about it for like a year before I realized that, well, some aspects of it are not reading material for a lot of people.

So every time it’s brought up somewhere I try to do a fair review which is that it’s divisive. I’ll mention common complaints, what I liked about it, and that if any of it resonates they should check out a sample.

Feverishly recommending it to a broad audience without a PSA, knowing that some of its subject matter is dark at best, and straight up triggering at worst, is just a recipe for disaster.

Which is why I chuckle when I see these tentative recommendations here of “if you liked that, you may like this” because it’s really a love it or hate it book. Most fans of the series are ready to take an adderall and talk about psychology and sociology for 8 hours.

Didsburyflaneur

11mo

"I want to recommend this book, but before I do I've got to ask: how do you feel about:

Rape
Black spunk
Cannibalism
Cannibalistic rape monsters
Incest
All the women being treated like shit, just constantly
Male rape
Rape monsters who make their victims enjoy it
Repetitive overuse of certain specific phrases
Whale mothers...no I'm not explaining it, but does the phrase concern you?"

I liked the first series, but yeah, it's an acquired taste.

catonkybord

11mo

It concerns me a bit, how many of these things also overlap with the Outlander series XD

Taidaishar

11mo

Thank you for this take. I’m always annoyed when people use the phrase “Erikson doesn’t hold your hand” because that implies that people who don’t enjoy the books are children who need their hands held.

You sound more reasonable.

Fair_University

11mo

Malazan is one of 2 or 3 favorite series ever but I would really only recommend it to people who have read a lot of fantasy and even then only to those who came to me and said they wanted to read something "different".

stuugie

11mo

Different in what way?

Aqua_Tot

11mo

Here are a few reasons how Malazan is different from most fantasy: - The extreme size of the text: currently 23 novels, 7 novellas, and 1 short story, with another 5 novels and 2 novellas planned minimum. This is spread out over 6 series currently, but you dont need to read all of them of course. - it’s written by 2 authors, each of which has their own characters and stories, but those intersect a decent amount too. - Erikson especially cares about characters/story second, and themes/ideas first (Esslemont is more about worldbuilding and then story above characters and themes). Not that characters and stories are lacking, but they are ultimately vehicles for the themes. - Similar to the above point, but unfortunately most fantasy out there is rather “pulpy”. Not necessarily the fantasy greats, but the vast majority of published fantasy (if you go by sheer numbers of published novels). Malazan is instead more like literary novels with a fantasy skin. So this throws off many fantasy veterans, since their expectations for payoff and how character arcs wrap up aren’t met the way they’ve been trained to. - There is very little handholding. Characters live in the world. They don’t go out of their way to ask questions about it or state things they already know just to give the reader exposition. Exposition is there, but it’s buried very deep. This can make the series difficult to get into, but extremely rewarding once you put together how the world works in your brain through your own effort. I’ve heard it called the Dark Souls of fantasy for this reason. - This may be because of the above points combined, but typically Malazan is much more fulfilling on a reread than a first read. Which is a big ask for people to get through the massiveness of it not once, but twice. - A little less uncommon, but because of the 2 authors & multiple series thing, a combined reading order isn’t clear and is very subject to debate, depending on: what you want to get out of it; if you’re reading first time or rereading; and how tolerant you are for dragging things out, style changes, pacing issues, etc. - The series isn’t written as an adventure held by a few major characters. It’s more like if you wanted to chronicle the story of say WWII. You can’t just focus on Churchill vs Hitler, you’d need stories focused in Northern and Southern Europe, in Russia, in the Pacific, in America, and on and on. Because of this, the series jumps around between many continents and introduces new POV characters in every novel. - As a byproduct of the last point, unlike most fantasy series, almost every Malazan novel could be read as a stand-alone if you wished. The novel’s story will have a beginning, middle, and end, and then the next novel will start a new (connected) story. No cliffhangers, no immediate continuation a few days later, etc (with one exception). - Not really with how it’s written, but it’s currently in a strange state regarding physically published books. It hasn’t been popular enough in the last decade to warrant a reprint, but over the pandemic and likely driven by popular Booktubers, it’s become much more popular the last few years. So there isn’t enough physically printed novels to meet the demand of new readers, but it isn’t big enough yet for the publishers to reprint.

gamedrifter

11mo

Erikson especially cares about characters/story second, and themes/ideas first. Not that characters and stories are lacking, but they are ultimately vehicles for the themes.

This is, a take I can understand but ultimately not true. Erikson has said in many interviews the core of his writing style is character driven short stories. The themes are so strong because of how well realized the characters are. Think about it. If you get almost no exposition, even from characters, and the story is told primarily through the actions of the characters, where do the themes come from? The interactions of the characters with each other and the world. Basically, as he was writing, he was entirely focused on the characters. And they drove the story. An outgrowth of his short story writing style, which was all he had written before he started Malazan.

Aqua_Tot

11mo

I can see that. I know he’s said many times that the way he drives his plot is by letting his characters drive it, which is comes down to the series’ tabletop RPG roots. However, he’s also said the way he writes is to make every aspect of his characters, and every sentence he writes, live and breathe his themes. So it may be both.

But compare him to someone like Abercrombie (who actually shares a few things in his style with Erikson). It would be hard to deny that the character work is much more focused and prominent by Abercrombie than it is Erikson. The other thing I’ve found with Erikson’s writing, especially by The Crippled God as a climax but even in each individual novel, was that it didn’t bring all character threads together for a big showdown like you’d often get in epic fantasy. Some characters get this, and some just completely disappear without a resolution. Instead, what he definitely brings together for a big convergence are the individual themes he had been working on through the series, and they all reach their conclusion together. That’s something that can throw off many readers since they expect it the other way around.

gamedrifter

11mo

Abercrombie's character work should be more focused, considering how many more characters Erikson has. But few authors working can evoke so much from so many characters. Beak gets about 35 pages in Reaper's Gale and I haven't found anyone who read that book that wasn't immensely moved. That's what's so interesting about Erikson's writing to me. And I'll grant you it's different from what a lot of people expect. They want a clean narrative focused on a core group of characters whose stories all get their conclusions. Erikson on the other hand never intended to do that. The 10 book series is simply a section of a much larger history. We pick up in the middle, and drop out in the middle. Life goes on. After all the only real resolution to life, is death. So yeah, you are right in that he's fundamentally different in how he deals with his characters than most authors. I just see a lot of people criticizing his character work or saying his characters aren't really developed well and that annoys me because I find his character work to be among the very best in the genre.

Designer-Smoke-4482

11mo

Wow, this is a really good and accurate write up of what makes the series stand apart.

ferret1983

11mo

Great write up.

Doomblaze

11mo

it took me a few tries to get through the first book because it requires more concentration than I'd like to use for pleasure reading.

Then as I was reading the second book, my friends asked me what its about and i responded "I dont know", because the series is designed in such a way that theres no sense of any overarching plot until like, halfway through book 3.

Its a very different reading experience than a brando sando book where I can just turn my brain off and read, or ASOIAF book where theres chapters that I feel don't add anything to the story.

Ghostonthestreat

11mo

As someone who made it through the Malazan books, the only way I can begin to describe them is an extremely intricate weaving of storyline. Think of an elaborate tapestry. You will be introduced to so many different characters, timeliness, places. Throughout the majority of the books you'll be trying to figure out what you are either reading or listening too and how it is relevant to what and whom you have already been introduced too. You'll also need a strong constitution, the series is pretty damn brutal in many sections of the storyline. It definitely isn't a series for the sensitive.

By the time I finished it I was happy to be done with it. All of the characters and everything were completely tied together and I was able to enjoy the overall picture that the author had painted. I had almost put the series down several time, in the end I was glad that I didn't.

TheRealSeeThruHead

11mo

Interesting. It was the first fantasy series I read that could be considered “epic” after lotr

ZaHiro86

11mo

My issue with it is just how difficult is to understand what's happening. I'm like OP and finished the first book and started the second but aside from the opening chapter I have no idea who anyone is or what they're doing. If it were easier to figure out what was happening I would be a lot more inclined to keep reading

Dumey

11mo

To be fair, I think Malazan is the series that always has some kind of caveat mentioned when it is recommended. That it may not be everyone's cup of tea. There's always a warning present there.

I think some other series like Robin Hobb's Realm of the Elderlings should always come with a similar warning about people that will bounce off the misery porn aspects of the series, but those warnings are never nearly as consistent as the ones I see accompanying Malazan recommendations.

ericmm76

11mo

I wish this were the case. People ask for a book about a group of merry adventurers and people recommend Malazan.

Spare_Incident328

11mo

"Not everyone likes licorice, but the people who like licorice, REALLY, REALLY like licorice."

Jerry Garcia, on the Grateful Dead's fans.

This applies equally well to Malazan. It's ok. You just don't like licorice.

Debbborra

200

11mo

I love Mazalan. I also like floral flavored ice creams and the blues. I don't like truffles, Haruki Murakami or The Wizard's Guide to Defensive Baking. And Tolstoy. Don't even get me started on Anna Karenina.

It's all good. If everyone liked the same things a lot of people would be out of a job.

Drakengard

11mo

I love Mazalan. I also like floral flavored ice creams and the blues. I don't like truffles, Haruki Murakami or The Wizard's Guide to Defensive Baking. And Tolstoy. Don't even get me started on Anna Karenina.

And there's me. I love Malazan. I'm definitely more of a vanilla w/ some extra ice cream guy. Meanwhile I love Haruki Murakami AND Tolstoy. I remember getting a copy of Anna Karenina as Christmas gift during college and just devouring it over break.

There is no rhyme or reason to the stuff we like.

Debbborra

11mo

Exactly. And I'll go further and saythat there are people who never even read Malazan, but have gone on to have perfectly fulfilling lives! ( Or at least appear to.)

-mad_thinker-

11mo

It makes me inordinately happy every time someone bashes Anna Karenina.

Debbborra

11mo

Oh I can wax poetic on what's wrong with that book!

KermitTClog

11mo

Please do, Anna Karenina is one of my favorite books of all time and I genuinely can't see how it leads to this much of a negative reaction.

cacotopic

11mo

Seconding this. I love this book. Actually reading it again right now for the... fourth time I think?

cacotopic

11mo

No, let's get started: why you gotta hate on Tolstoy like that?

Also, truffles can be delicious (when used sparingly and responsibly).

TheGabeCat

317

11mo

sad super fan noises

Spyk124

114

11mo

Every comment is a knife twist in the gut

MrTomDawson

198

11mo

Very well. Permit me, if you will, on this night, to break your hearts once more. This is the story of the Chain of Comments. Of u/Mindless_Nebula4004 of Reddit, newly come to the Book of the Fallen...

Spyk124

11mo

Omg that was fucking great hahah

BlindBettler

11mo

Sa’yless, bestie

anticomet

11mo

To be fair to OP I bounced off of DG on my first read too. When I came back to it a few years later it turned out to be one of my favourite series ever. I think your enjoyment of the books has a lot to do with where your head is at when you start reading them

lmMrMeeseeksLookAtMe

11mo

Thank you for putting it into words. I love the series but have never recommended it to anyone. I've even bounced off a few reread attempts since finishing in November 2019. I think your mental state is a key component of this series. Especially with the deeply philosophical books like Toll the Hounds that were written while Ericson was dealing with the death of his father.

Aware-Performer4630

11mo

True of all books

anticomet

11mo

I'm just trying to console myself and all the other Erikson stans reading this post

Aware-Performer4630

11mo

I hate to say it, but I’m not sure I like Malazan either after giving up halfway through book six. Though if it’s any consolation, I intend to try it all again in the near future.

FoeHamr

11mo

Eh not everything is for everyone.

Malazan is very different than most fantasy novels. It’s not really surprising people bounce off.

StickyMcFingers

11mo

As a huge Erikson fan I'd just like to say, it's totally okay to not enjoy it. If you don't get invested in it then you should absolutely not waste your time pushing through a story that isn't compelling to you. He's not really the kind of author you can skim through and enjoy, and if you get the point of skimming, he hasn't done it for you. You have to dig quite deep into the books to enjoy them and I'm a much slower reader than you so I think that's why I enjoyed them more. I probably spend about 4-8 weeks on a longer novel.

I am also a big fan of Robert Jordan, but for very different reasons than Erikson. They have similarities in that their novels were very well thought out and the plot points were largely developed in advance, but the tone is vastly different between the two authors so if Malazan didn't do it for you, that's not to say WoT won't.

Malazan fandom is quite broad but I hope all of us can agree that somebody not enjoying the books does not reflect negatively on either the author or the reader and we must strongly condemn anybody that tries to look down on readers for having a preference. That behaviour not only reflects badly on the individual but also on the Malastan community as a whole.

OP, I hope you find some great stories to take you away in the future!

IlliferthePennilesa

179

11mo

I made to about half way through book 8 and basically agree with all of this. There were stretches and characters I enjoyed in isolation but mostly I just found that I didn’t care about any of it.

Alexander_Layne

163

11mo

Damn, eight books is a long way to go to come to that realization.

nefariousmonkey

11mo

I have lost all motivation to finish the 10th book. Sad

csaporita

11mo

Wow that’s wild. So many ppl claim that Crippled God is their favorite book of all time. I can’t imagine getting to that point then stopping. I quit after book 3

_ovlE

11mo

tbh i didnt like the last one much, the "villains" kind of came out of nothing and there was yet another desert, i didnt feel a build up nor stakes personally

house of chains, midnight tides and bonehunters were peak of the series imo

2796Matt

129

11mo

Shame, the second epilogue of the 10th book is really when the series starts to get good.

Hartastic

11mo

I think you're being sarcastic, but I'm not sure. I think we need a closest fantasy Godwin's Law equivalent.

2796Matt

11mo

I was being sarcastic. Didn’t put the /s because I think it kinda detracts from the delivery imo

Hartastic

11mo

Agreed, but I've also encountered people who would have said that and meant it.

2796Matt

11mo

People say the wildest shit, so fair

csaporita

11mo

Lmao this reminds of the comments that I see when they say it is so much better on reread, let me go ahead and chow down 10 monsters and run it back just to make sure I like it lol

2796Matt

11mo

Going through a huge 10 book series twice, so maybe you like it the second time around, is crazy. The reality of it is, if you still don't like it by book 3 at the very most, then just drop it. No point wasting any more time on something you don't enjoy. Just going through them once while also enjoying them is an ordeal.

Alexander_Layne

11mo

At that point, I'd just look up the plot summary and call it a day haha

brova

11mo

I gave up halfway through book 8 of Wheel of Time.

Taboo_Noise

11mo

For me it was book 5. Couldn't put up with the gender dimorphism. It's a boring discussion in most contexts and Jordon very obviously doesn't understand it. He's insane for writing 12 books where that discussion is the only topic.

brova

11mo

Yeah honestly the main interpersonal drama being "boys are stupid" and "girls are impossible to understand" got tiring after half a book. And it seems to only get worse as it goes on.

fixer1987

11mo

How dare!

Crosses arm under breasts after tugging braid

Temptime19

11mo

I don't think you are alone in that one, that's right in the middle of some of the most boring books I've read. I'm a huge fan of WoT, in fact I just started book 8 of my latest reread last night, but books 7-10 (or whenever Sanderson takes over) are painful to read. Nothing happens during them, they could have been condensed a lot and been a lot better.

Hartastic

11mo

Sanderson wrote most of the last 3, which I think are 12-14?

In fairness to Jordan, it felt like the story started actually moving again in his last book.

fixer1987

11mo

Jordan wrote one book that got things moving back on track before dying (Knife of Dream) then Sanderson took over

fixer1987

11mo

Book 8-10 are the worst of the slog so can't blame you

AxelVores

11mo

I think I stopped Belgariad series midway through last book (10th). It starts out really good but gets repetitive and overall worse. Usually if I get that far I finish but for some reason I was at a place where I didn't have the mental capacity to finish something I wasn't enjoying any more.

I also abandoned RA Salvatore's series of serieses after about ~20-25 books.

NotSpartacus

11mo

Belgariad is 5 books?

AxelVores

11mo

Oops. I somehow mistook it for another series. I meant to say Chronicles of Amber that's the one I abandoned after 9.5 books.

cant-find-user-name

11mo

I was burnt out on book 9. To this day i am so angry at my self for not having read that one last book, but I can't bring myself to reread the entire series again.

IlliferthePennilesa

11mo

Honestly, I feel like a gave it a more than fair shot. If 8000 odd pages wasn’t enough to get me emotionally invested in the series I feel pretty comfortable marking it down as not-for-me and moving on.

cant-find-user-name

11mo

I feel like there were no characters to be emotionally invested in. New characters are introduced in every book and by the time later books came about, everyone was sad. And everyone was a philosopher. I remember liking some malazan characters, but they disappear for large stretches of books. I read these books long time ago, perhaps 5 to 6 years, so I don't remember things very well. But by the end I was so burnt out, I decided to stop reading fantasy for a while. But then I never got back to reading it

CoachDave27

11mo

I’m actually halfway through Book 8 right now, and yeah I’m having to drag my way through out of pure stubbornness. I finally started to enjoy myself Books 3-5, but it was still also a chore to get through, and I didn’t rate any of them 5/5. Book 6 and 7 mostly slogged for me, and my endurance is running out, but I want to know how this damn series ends at this point lol.

[deleted]

11mo

This, i listen on audiobook and find myself zoning out halfway through half the POV’s. I literally only care about the Bridgeburners, who cares about Clip.

CoachDave27

11mo

Same, it’s a struggle to stay tuned in. I had to switch to audiobooks after Book 6, these books were taking up way too much time I could spend reading books I enjoy way more, and the audiobook really highlighted the problems I had with it.

ACardAttack

11mo

I like a few more than just the Bridgeburners, they are my favorite ,but dont give a fuck about the Shake or Silchas Ruin or a few others and there are many sections I skim or do zone out if audio book

[deleted]

11mo

Oh lord, the beginning of Karsa Orlong or Trull Sengar was so tedious I almost quit reading the series I hate flashbacks that much, the only saving grave is Tehol and the two headed bug.

Sonorensepues

11mo

For me book 8 was really hard to get through and probably my least favorite book in the series, but felt the same that by that point I just wanted to see the end

simplymatt1995

246

11mo

Yeah I'm up to House of Chains and honestly I haven't been phased at all by the nonlinear storytelling and the thousands of characters/locations. What I've been disappointed by so far is how the characters and dialogue mostly all feel indistinguishable, and while the world technically is vast it feels paper-thin at the same time.

DefinitelyPositive

147

11mo

I find especially the inner monologues all sound like the same person.

CptHair

11mo

What made me drop the books, was a romance between 2 characters. They sounded so much alike that my inner pictures became the guy romancing and making out with himself.

Lemonstein77

11mo

Erikson 's romance plots are atrocious, and they don't improve at all. Makes me wonder why does he write them in the first place, or makes them a plot point

Mindless_Nebula4004

128

11mo

This pretty much nails it. It’s not enough to know that a world is deep and complex, but it actually has to feel like it. A puddle the size of an ocean is is still a puddle.

4Tenacious_Dee4

11mo

Yup, I also only got up to the second book before I noped out. I felt zero connection with any character. No one matters.

cosapocha

11mo

This happened to me too!

snake-eyed

11mo

Same here. I could tell the Chain of Dogs arc resolution was supposed to be this big emotional crescendo… but I felt nothing.

BatBoss

Hellhound

11mo

Hey me too! There are dozens of us! Dozens!

Didsburyflaneur

11mo

I loved the Chain of Dogs, but the resolution didn't really work for me. Great journey, stupid destination.

diffyqgirl

11mo

It felt a little bit like Skyrim to me. There's this whole vast world with so many things in it, and some pieces are actually fleshed out and interesting, but the rest of it is the equivalent of "oh no, I've lost my family locket in indistinguishable draugr tomb #45".

I would have enjoyed it more if he'd tried less for breadth and more for depth. But there's plenty of books written in the style I prefer, and it clearly works for some people, so I'm glad it exists for them.

jamsterbuggy

11mo

Could you elaborate on that? Malazan definitely has flaws but I don't agree that the complexity is fake, the depth of the worldbuilding is what drew me into the series.

Werthead

11mo

The worldbuilding is very broad. There's a lot of it. But there isn't a ton of depth or detail to a lot of it.

A good comparison is that people have written entire essays on the history of Andor in Wheel of Time or the Seven Kingdoms in ASoIaF. But you can't do that for the Malazan Empire or Lether because that detail simply doesn't exist in the text.

In fact, given how massively at variance Erikson's account of the Empire's founding is with Esslemont's actual prequel novels, and how often Erikson engages in retcons on worldbuilding, I'm not sure it exists behind the scenes either.

Avendesora84

11mo

Complexity is not the same as quality.

I can't speak for the entire series, since I'm another DNF for Malazan. While Erikson's world-building is exceedingly complicated, it's lacking in interesting, sympathetic characters. The prose was a little uninspiring. As others have pointed out, I felt like you could have replaced character names with one another and the actions and dialogue would have been largely the same.

Malazan is huge, complicated and epic... but somehow a little soulless.

Hopeful_Meeting_7248

11mo

Average fantasy author: my world has a couple of thousands years of history.

Erikson: Hold my beer. My world has HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS years of history.

This is so abstract number that it doesn't matter if world has one thousand or one million years. On Erikson part it looks only like a flex. And this is the case with other worldbuilding elements of his.

Yes, he introduced several different races, but is there anything distinguishable about them? I couldn't find anything.

MrTomDawson

11mo

Yes, he introduced several different races, but is there anything distinguishable about them?

...you didn't find any distinction between the immortal goths, the undead vengeance-fuelled cavemen and the incredibly technologically advanced dinosaurs from space?

Hopeful_Meeting_7248

11mo

In characters? No, not really. Maybe T'lan imass are somehow unique due to their longings. But for example Icarium - I wouldn't have guessed he's not human unless I wasn't told that. Same with Mappo.

MrTomDawson

11mo

The T'lan I'mass are just a mess in general. Kinda happens when you made a species-wide terrible decision a few millenia ago and have to un-live with the consequences way longer than you expected. Though their "longing" is a bit misleading, as generally they all have their own drives and desires, they're just a bit muted due to being dead as fuck.

Your other two examples, I wouldn't really classify as good examples for this discussion. Icarium is a thing of his own, unfortunately for him, and Mappo defines himself by Icarium. Neither of them really have anything you'd call racial characteristics on display behaviour-wise because they're both singularly goal-focused.

Now, something like the K'Chain Che'Malle, those guys are very different from everyone else. They don't think like humans, operate one step short of a hive-mind and communicate via scent. The Forkrul Assail are collectively focused on their concept of justice above all else, to the point they reportedly judged and destroyed their own god for not living up to their standards. The Toblakai are...well, they have an entirely different kind of morality, let's put it that way.

My point is that the series has enormous variation between the races and also within the races, you just don't meet them all right away.

Designer-Smoke-4482

11mo

Dont forget the deadpan orcs. They are the best.

TensorForce

11mo

I think the world feels shallow because we're just told things about it with no explanation, context, background or lore. Oh, look, another continent with another city with another nomadic non-human tribe doing another tribal ritual for another god I gotta memorize. We don't see the why of these things or how it affects people. We just have random foot soldiers fighting alongside literal gods and we're just supposed to accept it because the foot soldiers don't seem phased either.

Malazan has a buttload of Things and Events, but very little of it qualifies as Lore.

Edit: I do have to mention this, though. I've only read up to House of Chains, but Erikson has proven he is a master of Moments. The Siege of Capustan, the Chain of Dogs, the arrival at Aren, the Battle of Coral. These are all Moments that wouldn't work without the long setup beforehand. I only wish the setup wasn't as tedious as this

neutronicus

11mo

Honestly I also think he does too much grandstanding at Moments

A lot of “OMG reader everything happening right now is laden with unimaginable PATHOS”

rabotat

11mo

"OMG reader everything happening right now is laden with unimaginable PATHOS”

Lol, I've loved this, but you're not wrong

TensorForce

11mo

I guess it all boils down to whether those moments make the 700+ pages of fluff worthwhile.

SpectrumDT

11mo

What is the Chain of Dogs "moment"? As I remember it, the Chain of Dogs drags on for hundreds of pages.

TensorForce

11mo

Well, the whole Event, really. If you wanna narrow it down, you could say is a big one.

babbyhere

11mo

This! I’m on book 3 and I just can’t visualise the world that’s been described. The dialogue doesn’t feel too realistic, and the characters/settings don’t really get solid visual descriptions. It’s a shame because if he improved on that it would be 10/10. I’m going to try to keep going but I am struggling to care.

bigdon802

11mo

Oooh boy, i wouldn’t recommend ever reading Glen Cook if MBotF doesn’t have enough description.

ericmm76

11mo

Sometimes feels like a where's Waldo image. A ton going on but like... no focus.

ericmm76

11mo

Wait until they start introducing the new "infinitely powerful" race of the week.

MrSurname

11mo

God I hated this part so much. Every new introduction felt like a new DragonBall Z arc:

"You think X was tough just because we spent 3 books hyping him up? Well, Y just wiped the floor with him, and didn't break a sweat. Y could fight 100 X with his hands tied behind his back"

"Y? Don't make me laugh. Z takes bigger shits than Y before breakfast."

Chataboutgames

11mo

Sounds like Warhammer faction books lol

jamsterbuggy

11mo

Can you think of any examples where this happens? Really disagree that Malazan has power level bullshit like this, it pretty much does the exact opposite imo.

Malazan will often hype up a threat only to have them taken down before they can wreck shit, but it's not done in a way that hypes up another threat. It's usually something mundane that takes care of them.

Dumey

11mo

As a Malazan fan, I sometimes rolled my eyes at Erikson's lack of care in explaining the difference in perception between different characters. Like how the Seguleh are all just described as moving faster than normal humans can perceive. But then when a Seguleh fights someone stronger, they also move faster than they can perceive. Some of the big fights between big name characters end up just being Samurai showdowns where they flash past each other and then one person falls over dead. There are a lot if cases where we know that a character is exceptionally skilled, like Trull, but really have no indication of who he could actually stand up to, because who knows which characters would be too fast for him to perceive or not.

To be fair, I think some of the ambiguity of power levels, and some characters that talk a lot of shit but are relatively low on the totem pole power wise, is totally intentional. But I definitely get it when people get confused about the relative power of different characters, and perception of Erkison just going, "well actually THIS character is super duper strong and better than the other guy you thought was super strong."

cawkstrangla

11mo

This is what bothered me the most I think. I read all of the books, and it was almost completely painful. I liked Karsa Orlong. Definitely one of the best characters in Fantasy IMO.

That being said, he just seemed to be as strong as he needed to be each time he fought someone, and those levels of strength were all over the place.

But mostly with everyone else, the magic was not defined. The power levels werent defined. I had NO CLUE if the stakes were actually high, ever. It seemed like "and then somehow palpatine returned" deus ex machina/unlock another hidden power level was used often to get the favorite characters out of a bind.

So many fans think of the Chain of Dogs as this epic book. I was completely bored. I had no attachment to any thing in the entire series except probably Karsa. Icarium was pretty sympathetic as well having no recollection of being insanely powerful. That was interesting. The idea of Dragnipur was pretty unique to me as well; an entire magic plane in a weapon. That was awesome. Too bad there were barely any Anomander Rake scenes.

UEFKentauroi

11mo

This is amusing to read as someone who never ended up liking Karsa and found all of his bits in the main series a bit of a chore. I would actually rate House of Chains as one of the lowest books in the series simply because of all the time we need to spend in his PoV.

jamsterbuggy

11mo

I don't think the series is that bad about this. It's not like random races pop up throughout the books, they're all mentioned way ahead of time.

Hopeful_Meeting_7248

11mo

That was one of my frustrations. Malazans are very well organised, advanced, etc, but weak. On the other hand there are several barbarian tribes and races that are primitive but powerful. It looks like basic spreadsheet for designing your own rpg world, where every race has pros and cons.

lllluke

11mo

well, malazan was born as a dungeons and dragons campaign by the author.

da_chicken

11mo

That doesn't mean that books based on that world or the story they tell benefit from retaining those designs so transparently.

lllluke

11mo

I agree with you.

1eejit

11mo

Like how most characters that die don't stay dead. Or how two characters who are clearly retired player characters from the authors' campaign are the masterminds behind most events working from the shadows. 🙄

Hopeful_Meeting_7248

11mo

I'm very well aware of that. But the rpg roots are so obvious that it's painful to read.

Totalherenow

11mo

Yes! And . . . there's just no reason to care about them. It's so boring.

TeoKajLibroj

11mo

One frustrating thing is that some Malazan fans talk about the series as if it is an intelligence test and only the smartest and most skilled fantasy readers can comprehend its brilliance. This leads to people who didn't like the book feeling as if they have somehow failed.

The discourse around the books would be so much better if everyone just treated them as normal books that some people like and some people don't.

Brian2005l

11mo

I think it’s a little bit of this. But as someone who tried and doesn’t like the books, I’ve never felt like I failed. What gets me is that people who like the books often point to features X, Y, and Z of Malazan, and no matter how hard I squint I just don’t see it in there. Makes me wonder if I’m just not mentally configured in the same way that fans are. Or maybe they’re in it for the action elements but don’t want to say it (like folks who read Playboy for the articles), or maybe cataloguing all the trivia is the appeal (like folks who get really into Minecraft and the like).

I had a similar problem with the Farseer trilogy—just didn’t find the lead relatable like most fans do. But read a very interesting thread about how personal experience with CPTSD and the like helps you understand him better. I haven’t found a similar thread about Malazan bc all the critical threads I’ve read get so toxic so fast.

dystopi4

11mo

point to features X, Y, and Z of Malazan, and no matter how hard I squint I just don’t see it in there.

I think this might be due to Malazan in essence being a collection of interconnected short stories. There probably was X, Y and Z in the series but if it was one minor PoV or the other in the middle of one of the 10 books, then that doesn't mean it's relevant to someone looking for X, Y or Z in their books.

I definitely see this a lot in threads of people asking for recommendations, where people shill their favorite series even if it technically, just barely ticks the box of one of the recommendation subjects being asked.

paveric

11mo

It seems fairly obvious to me that the people who claim that it takes intelligence to enjoy are at least partially only pretending to enjoy it.

bigdon802

11mo

Maybe, but I think it’s more of just some people needing to find a way to feel superior about what they like. Pretty standard.

bagelwithclocks

11mo

Well some people get off on being smug, so they get enjoyment from that.

postretro

11mo

Reddit is where hobbies go to die. Stop interacting with socially malignant people. Follow: https://onlinetextsharing.com/operation-razit-raze-reddit for info how to disappear from reddit.

MrTomDawson

11mo

Did you force yourself to continue, and did it pay off for you?

Felt very confused in GotM, but persevered. Now it is, by far, my favourite fantasy series. I've read the whole thing about three times.

But everyone is different, and if it isn't for you, there's no shame in it. Don't waste your time on books you don't enjoy, go read something else!

AbsolutelyHorrendous

11mo

I'm always astonished by people who'll read multiple books in a series, just to work out if they actually like it or not... I applaud their patience, but if I'm not feeling it 150 pages into book one, I'm out!

FridaysMan

11mo

I don't read to enjoy everything, a good story is like life, there has to be some pain and boredom, or at least the character explaining it. Moby Dick is boring because of the whaling stuff, American Psycho is a grotesque character that I simply couldn't relate to. But they both made me feel things.

The worst thing an author can do is make me feel indifferent.

Fair_University

11mo

I definitely make myself finish almost every book. I usually am always glad I did. Even the ones that are boring or too formulaic I usually take something away from. Just a personal preference though.

MrTomDawson

11mo

In fairness, sometimes it takes a while. Especially when there's a kind of social pressure where people tell you how good a series is. I made it to book 5 of Wheel of Time because it was...okay-ish enough to keep going and hoping for improvement, but when it never came I finally lost patience. Everyone has their own tolerance levels.

goody153

11mo

but if I'm not feeling it 150 pages into book one, I'm out!

I'm like his nowadays. I cant count how many DNF's I had in the past like 100 books i've read.

Funny enough I was extremely persistent in reading through the entire series back then.

montrezlh

11mo

That's pretty normal I think. When I was younger I used to always finish the series I was reading no matter what and now I just don't have the energy to do it.

NatureTrailToHell3D

11mo

Do you find it’s a better read the second time? I’m about where the OP is and fell off the series and was thinking maybe a restart where I’m comfortable with the crazy might be a good way to get through it.

MrTomDawson

11mo

Oh man, each re-read is so much better, you pick up on just how much foreshadowing there is even four or five books in advance, how much of the information is given to you right from the start but you just didn't put certain pieces together..

Plus it's easier to slot into the world when you have an idea of how it all works rather than being lost in media res.

aquaqmar

11mo

They’re heavily influenced by the black company books, which are much shorter and have less characters if you wanted to give that a go.

LeanOnIt

116

11mo

I read 'em a couple years back. I can't really remember any of the characters or plot. There was mummy neanderthal dude, who did something... also god-sword-prison guy who, uh, walked around? I seem to remember having enjoyed it but I can't remember why...

After I read Malazan I also read The Black Company and I can remember my reaction to it's perfect ending. It's got the same vibes as Malazan but some advantages like a plot and memorable characters.

AgnosticJesus3

11mo

The Black Company was so good.

While I couldn't make it through book 1 of Malazan.

Oozing_Sex

11mo

The Bridgeburners are basically knock off Black Company characters.

WyrdHarper

11mo

Krupp is clearly patterned off Mocker from Cook’s Dread Empire series as well.

Hartastic

11mo

It's a time-honored tradition of short-on-time DMs to steal shamelessly from books they've loved that they know none of their players have read, and I always assumed that's exactly what happened with the campaign that Malazan is based on -- Erikson loved Black Company and none of his players had read it so he knew he could riff on it without them recognizing it.

There's a shit ton of worldbuilding in Malazan that isn't lifted from Black Company, of course, but that particular thread? Yeah, I feel like Glen Cook could win a lawsuit if he were so inclined.

aristifer

Reading Champion

11mo

Solidarity. I had the same response. Slogged through Gardens of the Moon and by the end, still. Just. Didn't. Care.

That was several years ago and it made so little impression on me, other than being bored, that I don't remember much and can't offer a really substantive analysis of why I didn't like it. But I think it had to do with the characters spending so much time talking about events that I didn't know anything about, without offering up enough context for why I should care about these particular characters doing the talking rather than the events they were talking about. Being confused about what was going on wasn't the problem—I can deal with confusion if the characters are interesting enough that I want to see what they do next. But they just didn't have enough characterization to make me care.

My conclusion is that Malazan is just not for me, and I have no interest in slogging through hundreds of thousands more words in the hope that something will finally hook me. There's too much other great stuff out there to read.

Oozing_Sex

11mo

Just. Didn't. Care.

This right here.

I understood what was going on. I was able to follow the plot. But I never knew who I should be rooting for and/or why I wanted them to "win".

The world could have blown up at the end of book 1 for all I cared.

thebiggesthater420

11mo

Yeah I felt the same way. I read the first 3 books and although from a technical standpoint they’re impressive - good prose, worldbuilding, storytelling structure etc. - I just found them so boring. The characters do nothing for me and I found myself not really affected by any of the events or anything that happened to the characters.

superbit415

11mo

Try the black company instead.

Jojo_Smith-Schuster

11mo

Wow I’ve never felt so vindicated by a post on here before. It’s to the point where I’m questioning if you’re actually me. I feel the exact same after stopping Deadhouse Gates at almost exactly the same point. I’ve just never found a series this hard to pay attention to before, and it’s frustrating as all hell! I’m happy that some people like it, but I just can’t bring myself to hold the same opinion.

ChimoEngr

11mo

There's so much out there to read, why does it matter if one series, no matter how popular, doesn't work for you? It doesn't sound like you're lacking good books to read.

The_Salty_Red_Head

11mo

You got further than I did. I didn't get on with it at all. I didn't like Wheel of Time either. Lol. Not everybody likes every swries and that's ok. It's weird people get offended by it, though.

Every time I say I don't like these, I get downvoted like no ones business. Umm? I'm not allowed to dislike stuff? Lol. Never mind. There are plenty of other brilliant reads out there.

cbus20122

11mo

I made it through 4 books and dropped it.

Ericson takes lack of exposition to a painful level, and it just makes it difficult to actually care about the characters. There were quite a few deaths in one of the books of well-known characters and I found myself simply not caring due to the complete lack of character development from those who died.

The series reads like a history book on a wild fantasy world, which in a way is pretty cool, but it takes the "history book" part a little too literally, and doesn't do enough actual storytelling.

DefinitelyPositive

11mo

Didn't like first, but appreciated how I felt like I was dropped into a world where people talked about events like everyone knew what was going on- yknow, as if a reader wasn't there. Read book two and felt it had a clearer goal, people easier to root for, and prose + ideas I enjoyed a lot. Similarly, enjoyed book three.

Then I read books 4-10 because when Malazan is at its best, it's wonderfully inventive, fresh and fun- and it was just enough to outshine the frequent morose inner monologues of how sad people are and how sad the world is.

I finished the final book out of obligation more than suspense, and was glad Erikson managed to wobble the landing but not ruin anything overly much.

Glad to have read the series, but not sure I can recommend the full thing.

Erratic21

11mo

There was a time I wished I like it but after trying a third time I do not care anymore. It bores me with the hundreds of jumping arcs and mostly with the abundance of metaphysical importance everywhere. Every other person is some special character, some demi god, some chosen, some super hero. Same with items, locations etc etc. People resurrect etc etc etc. No sense of scale and wonder for me. First try I reached book five but both last times I dnf at Memories of Ice. Pity because I always like Gardens of the Moon.

And no, dinosaurs with swords are not fascinating for me

TriscuitCracker

11mo

I loved them, have read them five times.

You are correct, this is okay, what you're feeling. No series is for everybody. What is great some one person might be terrible for another.

For example, I've tried to read Gidion the Ninth like 5 times and DNF everytime. I've concluded the series, while obviously well written and popular for many, is just not for me.

And like you say, that's okay!

This spoiler free review basically sums up my feelings.

ExperientialSorbet

11mo

Malazan is literally my favourite thing on paper - but if it’s not for you, that’s fine! Don’t do what I did with Wheel of Time and soldier on to the end and hate every minute.

That being said, it might be worth trying to get to the end of Deadhouse Gates. The ending, in my mind, showcases what Erikson is capable of.

Deverone

11mo

"Did you force yourself to continue, and did it pay off for you?"

Gardens of the Moon was a book I picked up randomly at the library, having never heard of Malazan and knowing nothing about it. I'm pretty sure I only picked it because Whiskeyjack sounded like a cool name.

I was hooked by the second chapter. My library didn't have the next book at the time, so I read it a second time immediately. It's the only book I've ever read twice in a row, and I've read it and most every other book in the series multiple times by now.

alltakesmatter

11mo

Yeah, "Clear and straightforward" are never adjectives that can be used to describe Malazan, so if you're 1.2 books into it and don't like it you should just stop. And I say this as someone who loved Deadhouse Gates from page 1.

Firejay112

11mo

I’m mildly entertained by Gardens of the Moon but not enough to listen to the audiobook over other stuff. What I find funny is the subset of people (not you, OP) who pat themselves on the back and go “oh, you know, Malazan is difficult it’s normal if you don’t get it” like it’s a particularly hard story to follow. It really isn’t for me, in any case—I can drop the book for months and still remember who everyone is and what they were doing, but then I have come to the realization I have a very good memory for this stuff—my problem is that it just seems to be people doing stuff with nothing much really happening, and there isn’t anyone with a sense of humour or interesting personality to properly speak of. So far, Whiskeyjack’s gang and Paran interest me most because at least they have glimmer of sarcasm to them.

The worldbuilding is neat, though. I just feel like I’m reading a textbook with dialogue, but in a way that’s drier and less evocative than Tolkien? That said, Erikson is Canadian so I’ll try to last until Deadhouse Gates even if progress is slow, out of patriotism.

HerrKRAKEN

11mo

I love the series to bits, but the people treating it like an intelligence test are so cringey. I did find lots of humour later in the series however, his writing really does improve in the next couple books.

ACardAttack

11mo

o I’ll try to last until Deadhouse Gates even if progress is slow, out of patriotism.

His writing does improve a lot starting with DHG, I didnt have a problem with Gardens, but I could tell it was an upgrade in writing

I also think Gardens is the easiest to remember and follow. Yes you're thrown into it, and dont know everything surrounding, but you dont have to recall things from books past, or a character who was a few books ago, a race of people who show up three books later, etc.

duckhunt420

11mo

Textbooks give you context for things. It's more like reading a list of events in random order involving random people.

AskemB

11mo

Are you me? I did exactly the same.

AbsolutelyHorrendous

11mo

Honestly I couldn't agree more, I see how much love the series gets, and I do genuinely wish I could get why... but it just doesn't work for me. I do understand that his whole deal is not explaining whats going on, so you're just flung into the world, and fair play, lots of people seem to love that aspect of it, but its just not for me. I've tried three times to get through Gardens of the Moon, and I've DNFd each time

nidok19

11mo

I made to BOOK 9 before dropping it. The first 4/5 books are the good ones for me, later it gets even worse.

cant-find-user-name

11mo

Wow can't believe there are so many who quit at the pen ultimate book. I thought i was kinda dumb to do that.

[deleted]

11mo

What happens so late into the story that made you drop it?

jamsterbuggy

11mo

I didn't drop it and I like the later books, but they get a loooot more philosophical. Inner monologues started to feel really repetitive to me after a while.

_Greyworm

11mo

Toll the Hounds eventually made me drop the series over this. I'm tempted to start again, but it's been a while and I have a love hate relationship with some of the prior novels. Memories of Ice and Midnight Tides were amazing

asphias

11mo

By the end of book 3 i noticed that the books work on a tabletop rpg 'strategy' style. Rule of cool goes above and beyond any strategical considerations or personalities, timelines don't add up, generals that are supposed to be legendary and experienced in hundreds of battles, just 'yolo' it all the time. everybody is uniquely powerful and legendary, but that just means that in the end it's totally up to the writer to decide who wins when and why, and it just doesn't feel like it makes sense.

And then in book 4 i was just sick of the endless descriptions of death and violence. I know the message of the books is more or less about finding hope where there is none, or meaning when there is only violence, but i was just done with it.

Though i did like the books i did read, and I still love the world-building.

Chataboutgames

11mo

Same boat. Any time you talk about not clicking with Gardens of the Moon the usual answer is that you're supposed to be lost and confused.

But honestly that wasn't the issue for me. The issue for me is that the book gave me no reason to care about any of the characters or which "Demigod with a magic sword" or "ancient evil capable of enslaving the world" or literal pocket demon or assassin who oh shit is also an archmage came out on top. Like who gives a shit about this shitty expansionist Empire or its genocidal soldiers?

I understand it gets bad reactions because it comes across as condescending but there's just no better way I can describe it, Mallazan feels like a couple of little boys trying to outdo one another with their OP imaginary characters. "My guy has a sword that eats magic and a demon in his pocket," "yeah well my guy is the head of the assassin's guild and an archmage!"

RokenSkrow

11mo

It's a tough realization when you start to understand that you don't like something popular. Seeing all the hype but just never being able to enjoy it while everyone around you does can be a bit alienating. I've tried to play survival/crafting games with my friends more times than I can count but I finally accepted that I just don't like those games.

I'm a huge Malazan fan but every time I see someone talk about not "getting it" I totally understand, the series has some choices in design that can be pretty polarizing and if that's not your jam you're just kinda out of luck.

FiddlersBallsack

11mo

Is Malazan popular? Seems it's kinda niche. A few online circles constantly talk about it, but outside of them barely anyone does, especially irl. And the sales are kinda modest.

mjacksongt

11mo

I've DNF'd Deadhouse Gates twice now.

And just decided it's not for me.

Girlydemise

11mo

I think it's not for you to at that point tbh. Every series is not for everyone. I loved the first book cause the plot felt like a mystery I had to figure out and the characters got me hooked instantly. If you can't pick up on the charms the characters and the depth they give when you read between the lines it's probably not for you

Howlicious

11mo

I also stopped reading it. I found all the characters to be identically sarcastic and unlikable.

Lemonstein77

11mo

I understand you. It wasn`t until i finished Bonehunters when i realized i was not enjoying reading Malazan. I forced myself to continue beceause i liked Deadhouse Gates, and the endless praise it recieves in this sub. So i felt i was missing something.

I understand why people like it, but they are not for me. I get why people like the archeological-like exposition. But the first explanation of the magical system does not appear until book five, despite being integral to several previous events. Too many key events do not get a proper explanation until books later, when i can barely remember what happened. And this wasn`t even my worst problem with Malazan. So, sadly, i had to drop the saga, knowing i will never finish it

soapsnek

11mo

currently reading malazan for the first time, about to start the fifth book. i was hooked the moment i picked up gardens of the moon, not a slog at all. i love the worldbuilding. too bad they didn’t work out for you, i wish you better luck on the next series you try

Evolving_Dore

11mo

Why? Life's too short to read books you don't like. I tried to get into Malazan as well and it just wasn't for me. Apparently it's not for you either, that's fine.

[deleted]

11mo

I'm currently rereading the series for the 5th time. It is probably one of my favorite series of all time.

That said, I have a friend who has bounced off of Gardens of the Moon multiple times. Erikson's style is not for everyone, and I wouldn't pull a Dark Souls fanbase move of saying you've just got to "Git gud" in order to enjoy Malazan Book of the Fallen. It's simply not a style that everyone enjoys, and there's no shame in not liking it.

[deleted]

11mo

Unlike the OP's experience, the Malazan series were an exorcism against the demons of boredom. I'd carried my copy with me to read on the bus, at lunch in the park and at night! Couldn't put the books down! To me, it is the pinnacle of high fantasy. But, it isn't for everyone. The characters are complex, names range from uncommon to unpronounceable, the world is murky (at first) and there are innumerable re-configuring threads to keep track of.

My advice is, move on. Read what brings you joy.

KalariSoondus

11mo

Agree with everything you posted. I actually made it to book 4 and the books really don't improve at all.

Funkativity

11mo

I found myself skimming large parts of it.

imho, once you start skimming, you've already lost the battle. simply getting the gist of the events is never going to bring you a point where you can suddenly "get" what all the fuss is about.

I think that enjoying the series and getting value out of the experience is heavily dependant on careful reading and reflection.

which is not what a lot of people are looking for in a fantasy series.

Major_Application_54

11mo

I understand you. I actually had to reread the first books a couple of times to enjoy them. Yep, I was that persistent.

Oozing_Sex

11mo

I've said this in other Malazan threads, but to me the series felt like a DnD campaign that has been going on for years and you are the newest player at the table.

Sure, you can know who all the characters are and what is happening in the plot and the GM can tell you why everyone is super awesome and important, but that's not necessarily enough to make you care.

kjmichaels

Stabby Winner, Reading Champion IX

11mo

I like Malazan a lot and am currently making my way through book 9. There’s nothing else quite like it in fantasy and so it gets a lot of points on originality even when it sometimes disappears up its own ass in terms of storytelling.

I don’t think any of your complaints are off base though. Malazan is not a straightforward story and if you’re reading in hopes it will become one, you’re going to be disappointed. Probably best to hop off and look for books you’ll like more. Although, if you’re comfortable skipping around a bit, the Coltaine sections of the book you are on are generally considered one of the highlights of the series and the closest the books come to straightforward storytelling. That might be worth checking out to the end if those parts are already grabbing you.

WhyDoName

11mo

Coltain is literally the only reason I even finished book 2 tbh

WhyDoName

11mo

I'm halfway through book 3 and feel the same. Everything just blends together kind of.

zoffman

11mo

That's basically how I felt after finishing book 10, "I wish I liked that." I really loved books 2 and 3, enjoyed 4-7. But I hit book 8 which jumped continents just as the primary narrative was picking up steam, and then I just slogged through the remaining books. I still enjoyed and respect the series overall, but still have residual disappointment.

There's a line between respecting your reader's intelligence and disrespecting their time and Erickson plays jump rope with it.

Having a big world with lots going on: good

Spending massive chunks of a book setting up a plot point or POV only to have it resolved in a different series or simply go nowhere: bad

Vibes of mystery and discovery where we and the characters can't know everything: cool!

Deliberately skipping the conversations in which important details are explained just to keep the "mystery": annoying

troublrTRC

11mo

You really have to be a theme reader over anything else. The world is humongous, there are like 400+ POV characters, action is the biggest most ridiculous high fantasy stuff there is- dragon battles, dragon chases, under armored dinosaurs, sorcerous conflagrations, celestial events, etc; but at the same time the most intimate and strategic military action writing I have seen.

The stories are mostly self-contained within each book, but there are sub story arcs arching over multiple books and continents, all under higher arcs interconnected in very complex ways. Not all characters are treated as people per say; some are metaphors, some are embodiment of themes, etc.

I personally would say, it was at the end of Deadhouse Gates that Malazan got me good. That's where I figured what Erikson was trying to do with the series. it ain't necessarily about entertainment, but engagement, thematic explorations, social commentaries and existential themes such as Compassion, Humanity, Imperialism etc.

Things just got better from there for me. I would say, the first half of the series is very setup heavy. There are three whole separate continents being explored in depth, with allusion to other continents as well. The second half gets into the meat of the main story. The scope gets enormous here. The mysteries are so cataclysmic, and the events that happen in this half are so apocalyptic, no other fantasy series have got anywhere near it.

I am only saying these things because I was just as you. Dragging through 2/3rd of Deadhouse Gates. It is not that the ending of DG is "better than" what came before, it just recontextualized all that came before and realized the potency of it. It was also the book that I jumped to reread after I finished the series. I would say, give DG a complete try. But if you feel like it just ain't for you, you can drop it.

ShadowOfDagan

11mo

The Malazan series can definitely be a slog to get through. He often takes the first 60-70% of the book to set things up, and then all the action/exciting stuff comes towards the end. I will say though, the beginning of DG is hard to get through, but the ending is actually super good. Absolutely gut-punching and worth the read if you can make it there. It’s one of my favorite books now just based off the last 30% of the book. They’re not for everyone though, so I can completely understand stopping early.

Lightning_fanguy

11mo

I agree 100 percent! Made it to the third book and still no cohesion. This is probably the second or third series in my life I DNF.

mnchemist

11mo

I didn't really enjoy (or make it through) Gardens of the Moon. Just couldn't get in to it within the first few chapters. And haven't picked it back up since.

super-wookie

11mo

I enjoyed the first two even though I was confused a lot, and it felt like there was a lot going on I wasn't picking up or didn't have the context to understand. Halfway through Memories of Ice and I am absolutely loving it. Feels like those first two were just the foundation of an entire planet's insane history.

But I will say I was never bored and thoroughly enjoyed the first two despite the confusion.

El_Burrito_Grande

11mo

I'm with you. To me it felt like there was a lot going on but felt completely hollow/shallow somehow. Part of it is it seemed like someone who had a big story to tell but didn't know how to write a good story.

Veleda390

11mo

> I didn't care about any of the characters or storylines

This is my big problem with the series, especially characters.

I quit halfway through Memories of Ice.

I've been listening to Mark Lawrence "Broken Empire" series audio books and am really hooked on them, if you're looking for something else to try.

hitokirizac

11mo

I got halfway through book 5 before admitting that I just did not care about anything or anyone in the series. There's no reason to, and each new book just seems to be more new characters and settings to not care about.

EdLincoln6

11mo

I feel the same way about the Stormlight Archives. I like Sanderson...I even like his style of prose. I'm just not a fan of Doorstopper Fantasy Epics.

For the record, I despised Gardens of the Moon but kind of liked Deadhouse Gates. I didn't quite care about what was happening in Garden of the Moon...I didn't feel invested in the conflict. There seemed no reason to root for one side vs. another. Also, I have trouble connecting to Erickson's characters. The names make them hard to keep track of and there are so many interchangeable grizzled veterans. I read about half of the Malazan books, which were all the ones that existed then. Since then more books have come out, but I have trouble working up the motivation to read them.

OmniQin

11mo

As a professional editor by trade and education, I have many thoughts here. Happy to go on in further detail if people are interested.

Veleda390

11mo

I'll bite. What are your thoughts?

jyhnnox

11mo

I read all 10 books.

For me, the first book I kinda enjoyed was the 3rd one. First was confusing as hell. Second very boring and a lot of deaths, sadness, and hunger made me not really enjoy it.

But the 3rd one you are already sorta used to the world (not really!) and I could finally enjoy the book.

By the end of book 10, I wish I had spent my time reading another series. It wasn't bad exactly. But the themes didn't appeal to me. I like to live and have a good and positive story to read. The real world is already too sad for me to spend my leisure time suffering with unending sadness from a book series.

Be warned.

ferret1983

11mo

In my opinion Deadhouse Gates and Memories of Ice are some of the best fantasy books ever written.

A couple of other ones that are good through and through.

Some others are quite slow and boring for a long time before becoming extremely good in the last third or half of the book (Midnight Tides).

You have to like epic tales with many characters and different plots to like Malazan. And be able to tolerate some slow parts.

In my opinion the second best fantasy series after GoT.

ShekelOfAlKakkad

11mo

I'm reading DG at the moment and I've been absolutely hooked on Malazan right from the first page of GotM.

My big issue with the series, though, is how much extra work I have to put in to understand what's happening. After finishing every scene, I write down a detailed summary of everything that happened, followed by bulletpointing any other important information that I think I'll need to remember. I don't read the summaries again (I do check the bulletpoints), but the act of writing them out and going over the events again in my head helps consolidate my understanding of the novel. I assumed I'd do this just until maybe the halfway point, but as soon as I stopped I was struggling to keep up with the book again. The problem isn't even the lack of hand-holding, it's simply the sheer amount of information to remember - so much happens in these books.

TLDR: It's a great story (perhaps the best I've ever read) and I'm really loving it, I just hate having to stop reading every few minutes to take a whole page of notes.

whiskeywalker42

11mo

I will go to my grave saying Malazan is one of the best fantasy series of all time. But that doesn't mean it's for everyone. It's basically the Dark Souls of fantasy series. It's complicated and so much of it just isn't spelled out like most traditional fantasy.

But if you like the prose and want something in the same setting that is a bit more digestible check out his series that follows two minor characters, Bauchelain and Korbal Broach. Starts with Blood Follows I think.

emperoratreides

11mo

So I really liked Malazan The first read through but I hated the inconsistencies and plot holes. But I realized something and I went back and read them through again and while there's one in particular I'm thinking of that is an actual plot hole, The rest of it feels intentional as like a recalling from legend type deal where the reports and records are inaccurate and contradicting. I read it through a second time with this in mind and it was even better

malthar76

11mo

I am 7/10 done with a reread, probably my last.

I love the scope and complexity, so many of the characters and their interactions a funny, tragic and heroic in so many ways.

But not everything is for everyone. I see some of the flaws people complain about, most don’t bother me. What I have found is that there are subplots I just don’t care for - either too peripheral, or I have no patience for some of the characters or events