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I suspect I may be PIP'd. Is it a mistake to admit I'm down to be laid off?
"Severance or PIP" is usually a choice that is offered at the company level as a general policy and I think it's quite rare in larger companies because HR usually strongly prefers the formality of a PIP. It's a shame because imho 99% of the time both parties benefit more from the severance than the charade of a PIP.
That is to say if it's not one of the choices you are offered then it's unlikely that you can create this option.
So your only choice is to ride out the PIP - do the bare minimum to avoid summary dismissal, which basically means maybe hit 10-20% of your PIP goals and attend every meeting.
HR usually strongly prefers the formality of a PIP. It's a shame because imho 99% of the time both parties benefit more from the severance than the charade of a PIP.
Definitely agree, either it squeezes a bit more mediocre work per day out of someone gullible enough to think they can survive the pip, or they know what's up and go from half assing to full assing while applying elsewhere.
Meanwhile they're freely chatting about their situation and making everyone else that's doing well nervous about layoffs when really just the one person isn't meeting expectations. If they just left, management could more easily control the narrative.
(Obligatory "someone I know made it through a pip" cool but that's not normal)
It’s not worth doing.
I beat one in a politically fraught situation (I had the temerity to bring up a difference of opinion with a VP in a 1-on-1) either because my manager sandbagged the PIP to one I could definitely beat, or he vastly underestimated my stubbornness. Didn’t really matter anyway, because the stress of the PIP on top of regular work led to a burnout heralded by a case of the flu that turned into pneumonia. They fired me without warning a week after I got back for “not producing”. At least they didn’t fire me while I was still sick.
Small correction: I believe it would be “no assing” in this scenario.
I took a pip seriously once and if I were to experience that again, I would bury them with ass work
Meanwhile they're freely chatting about their situation and making everyone else that's doing well nervous about layoffs when really just the one person isn't meeting expectations.
Under normal circumstances, I would agree with this, but OP mentioned a PIP quota. Not only that but a higher PIP quota.
That just sounds like layoffs with extra steps.
This type of comment is why people think PIPs are a charade. Basing their opinion on anecdata and summarily dismissing any data points which don’t agree with their perspective as outliers.
If you have actual studies, I'd like to see them.
Until then, I'm gonna side with the HR professionals and employment lawyers I've heard weigh in that a PIP is just a normal firing with documentation to prove it's for cause.
Or do you want to tell me that managers meet with each other behind closed doors to talk about an employee and have HR contribute a formal plan, and the goal most of the time is to actually improve that employee's performance?
At my company the survival rate for PIPs is around 40%. They actually DO want people to improve, however they also want to be able to terminate those who do not perform, especially under pressure and with assistance.
Why do they prefer the PIP charade? I thought Netflix did a thing where they would offer you 3 months or something at your 6 month mark. They wanted to get rid of dead weight.
There's vulnerability to a discrimination lawsuit when the process is picking someone a few people say is bad and offer them cash to leave.
The PIP is a cover-your-ass attempt that doesn't really do much in reality to prevent a lawsuit. It gives them a "look see it's really for performance reasons and not protected class reasons" thing to point to, but everyone knows the bullshit. It also is ammo to deny unemployment in some states, and is something to defend with when they fire someone for illegal reasons.
It also may be statistically cheaper to pay a few weeks salary and let the PIP employee quit on their own instead of offering a juicy severance package.
I'm pretty sure the interest rate situation was a lot different when Netflix did that than it is now. You can make the argument that PIPs are more costly overall, and maybe that's right, but the cost is much less visible.
A PIP and a severance go hand in hand. The company offers you a bag of money to not try to fight an unwinnable PIP. It's in everyone's best interest. They're not mutually exclusive.
This is simply not true, as a leader in a big company, I can assure you we have a severance or PIP policy and a massive preference towards severance.
Got any exceptionally high paying jobs going ;)
"Severance or PIP" is usually a choice that is offered at the company level as a general policy and I think it's quite rare in larger companies
Amazon had this policy as of at least 7 years ago.
As of last year. Ask me how I know…
Let me guess, you started getting high on your own cloud metrics?
Nope, Amazon was always at most a 4 year play for me. It was my 8th job out of now nine. I did it for the money and the resume building opportunities. In my niche, having AWS ProServe on my resume gave me immediate credibility.
Be careful, honesty might ruin severance negotiations, play it cool and see what they offer.
Theres no reason to self resign because you might be PIPed. It sounds like you're going to leave anyways. If you leave, you don't get unemployment, etc. If they lay you off, you get severance.
Heck, there is no guarantee that your position in September will remain in place.
This is all only in the event of a PIP. If I get one, does it make sense to say "I'm not leaving but feel free to lay me off?"
No it does not.
If you get on a pip do the bare minimum and don't worry. Consider it a last attempt to collect a paycheck.
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6d
Company might still try to recruit you later.
no. a PIP is a big fat lie. you can't use casual honesty with somebody who is lying to you, especially not if they're doing it as part of an organized, standardized corporate process of lying to you. they would have to buck the entire process and drop the charade. they're not going to do that.
they've already made a commitment — not just to a team, not just to their own manager, but to the entire HR organization — that they will lie to you. they're all-in.
the lying is part of the job, if you're a manager. one of the many unpleasant things I learned from working as a manager, which I have no intention to ever do again. you're not going to get more money out of them by making their job harder to do.
They don't need to be told to "feel free" to lay you off. If they want to, they will.
There's no law (in the US) that someone must get severance if laid off. OP shouldn'twcountwon it without knowing the local laws.
What kind of keyboard layout are you using where you accidentally hit w instead of space?
QVERTY
Theres no guaranteed severance but it does get offered when the company lays you off without a PIP. OP doesn't know if there is a rif coming or a pip. Sometimes even with a PIP there could be a severance offer.
Nah never reveal your cards, you don't know what he can or will do with that info. Just show up and do nothing
Do you get severance if you get PIPd?
And what the f** is “near FAANG”? It sounds like something you would read on r/cscareerquestions who base their ego on the company they work for.
Yes. And by "near FAANG" the intention is a company that pays near or above FAANG levels. Think companies like Airbnb, LinkedIn, Spotify, etc. Trying to give context as the kind of culture in question.
In that case you should easily be able to find out what happens when someone gets PIPd.
In my case, I knew I was being targeted and purposefully waited for the PIP to make it through a vesting period and get my $40K severance - this was at Amazon.
I knew someone would hire me or I could go independent and do consulting for a while. I worked in the consulting department (Professional Services)
I had a job lined up within two weeks of leaving
it’s a term used to refer to a company that is headquartered within walking distance of the FAANG.
Joe: “I am gonna skip lunch to have an onsite with Netflix”
Boss: “NP! Good thing our company is near FAANG eh?”
LOL. Round my neck of the woods they would just call these "unicorns"
You’ve got your SV Slang mixed up. A “unicorn” is a “pre-profit” private company that is overvalued.
Or they just have $1+ billion valuation. Whether they're overvalued is up for debate.
Whether they're overvalued is up for debate.
History would suggest that most of the unicorns are overvalued. Companies that are not publicly traded have a lot more leeway to bullshit their way to unrealistic valuations. As soon as interest rates rose, many of them did massive layoffs and their values plummeted.
Or as Warren Buffet put it: "Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."
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6d
🤷
This guy's dictionaries the urban life
I’ve had a company out in LA, Fuel Cycle, during their interviews would describe themselves as like-FAANG bc they work with FAANG and they use their services…
I have Amazon prime, Apple TV and Netflix. I’m basically faang.
If your manager isn't being open with you about being PIP'd, I wouldn't be open with them about anything. That's pretty clear evidence that they don't care about your best interests.
Companies can choose to offer a “mutual severance agreement” - something like being paid for the PIP period + some amount of cobra coverage paid with an immediate termination date and an NDA.
This is a pretty good explanation: https://drewlewis.law/severance-package-negotiation-how-to-guide/
You might be permanently on the not eligible for rehire list, but this isn’t burning a bridge, the bridge is being closed
Express to your manager that you feel like the relationship isn’t working out and if there’s something you and the company can work out as an MSA. Don’t ask for an amount or cobra extension specifically
They’ll take the request to HR who will decide the value.
Don’t play your knowledge of knowing the quota for PIPs. If it’s true, and your manager expresses it’s not worth keeping you through a PIP period HR will read the tea leaves
Note: if they are planning layoffs, the severance may be better than what’s being offered in an MSA, but there is no guarantee they won’t PIP first
Don’t play your knowledge of knowing the quota for PIPs. If it’s true, and your manager expresses it’s not worth keeping you through a PIP period HR will read the tea leaves
Could you expand on this point? In this case the manager is in the wrong in HR's eyes right?
HR does not care, your manager is responsible for determining your performance and value
One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned (if I missed it I'm sorry) if you take severance at a company you get entered into a permanent no rehire list. Some companies, that list expires, but not all. Not all companies have this, but I would expect all the biggest ones to have this.
Anyways it's just a data point. If you think "this manager sucked but I'd come back" you might be burning that bridge.
If there's no way in hell you'd come back, then by all means, take the severance.
Edit: typo
There are so many companies in the world that pay well. Not coming back, even if it's Google is no big deal IMO. With high salaries, many people will not have careers that are 40 years as they'll retire early, so burning a bridge is even less of a concern.
Just ask yourself: would you pay $80k (or whatever is the severance) for a chance (not a guarantee) to work at company X? I wouldn't.
It's true. And so many companies that seem like shining stars no longer have their day in the sun. By the time you consider them for employment again, they may not be worth it anymore. Best to move forward with no regrets.
There are so many companies in the world - who cares?
yeah sure a company is going to pass on great talent because they took a severance offer lol.... we know that there was a no-poaching agreement once amongst big tech and that was deemed illegal.
I don't think this is universal. Also they will either tell you or they are secretly blacklisting people who take options they give in which case they're probably not a place you want to work.
This is not true for all companies.
a PIP kind of does the same thing, though. they have to pretend the PIP meant something so that it can perform its CYA function.
One thing I would add in that I didn't see in other comments is that you haven't started your new job yet, and it could change. It might be somewhat unlikely but there are plenty of people who have had a job offer signed and thought they were going to start somewhere new, but then something changed, the company did a round of layoffs or froze hiring or for whatever reason changed their mind and then didn't go through with it.
I'd say it's probably better to just keep your job as long as you want to and then put in notice when you're ready to end it, in advance if you want a small break between jobs.
Getting fired isn't a huge deal but it might come up in some way in the future if you want to work with someone from your old company or return to your old company, if a company is doing a background check on your work history, etc, and it's better to not be fired. The only upside is a potential severance (which is not required for them to offer or guaranteed, at least in the USA). They're a lot less likely to offer it to you if you tell them you're planning on leaving the company anyways. Your situation sounds like you don't strictly need that severance to stay afloat and could keep your job with a little effort, but you just think it would be nice to have a paid vacation.
If they specifically offer you a severance option with a PIP you can decide whether it's worth taking it, but I wouldn't try to ask for it or intentionally do bad work to try and fail into one.
Ride it out . If you know it’s going to happen and already have an out just deal with it. When the PIP starts you’ll have basically a month and then whatever you’ll get once it’s completed.
I was in a similar position. I was planning to go back to school, and I told that to my boss. I mentioned if they happen to have layoffs, feel free to let me go. Layoffs did in fact happen, and I got a couple months pay I wouldn’t have otherwise received.
At a different company, I wasn’t performing well. When I got the PIP meeting, I went straight to HR & said it was bullshit because my boss had been actively subverting my progress . I asked to be laid off, and they gave me 30 days pay to go away (I’d only been there 5 months).
If you're worried about being PIP'ed you are definitely going to be on the "non regretted leavers list" so straight away chill out and take things easy.
I've heard of good people going on the non-regretted lists recently as their manager figures they are losing them anyway, and if they are on the non-regretted list the manager doesn't have to manage someone else out. I have also heard it's easier to get headcount for non-regretted replacements than regretted.
Maybe raise redundancy in a roundabout way? Like, "I have heard there will be voluntary redundancies soon?". And if the manager asks if you will take it, say something noncommittal like "I would be curious about the package".
Best of luck either way!
I egged on my manager to pay me to leave after I secured the new job - go for it
I was recently offered PIP or severance. I took the severance thinking I’d land a new role quickly, but I have had zero success. 3 months of daily job applications have landed very few interviews. Severance is running out.
Don't tell anyone anything...
A quota for PIP, what a world we’ve created for ourselves.
My company offers severance or PIP. You actually get a severance in either case but if you choose the immediate severance, your severance package is increased by the PIP duration.
So instead of 2 weeks you might get 3 months.
It is absolutely 100% the way to go. By the time someone is on a PIP they have already had several chances to improve and the writing is on the wall.
How near are you to FAANG? I work across the street from Google's office, so I consider myself pretty close too.
Has there been any formal communication about you getting PIP-ed?
(And no, a slack message doesn’t count as a PIP notice)
It’s funny you think PIP and severance go together.
They go together perfectly.
I got PIPd from Amazon. They give you choices:
- once you are officially on a PIP, you get a choice between working through the PIP or a month’s base pay severance for each year/partial year you worked there if you agree to “leave immediately” or you can try to survive the PIP. In my case that was $40K
- if you fail the PIP, you either have a choice of accepting a third of the original severance or appealing the PIP
- if the appeal fails, you get 1/2 of the 1/3 of the PIP.
Of course I chose option 1. As soon as my manager started the discussion, I interrupted them and asked how much I would get if I left and how do I start the procedure. I never even worried about not getting a job or a contract. I already had my LLC lined up.
Yeah I'm confused why OP thinks this is a given or a choice they even have.
what the heck is "near-FAANG"?
i had to double check to make sure I was in the right sub. People in this sub used to think that PIPs could have a positive outcome and that you shouldn't leave if you got one.
OP, I'm sorry to hear that. However, you probably aren't going to be at your job in a few months.
What's Pip? Obviously not Python and google says "Performance Improvement Plan", but what does it mean in practice?
Basically you are told that you don't meet expectations and are given some time to improve. In practice, it's more of "paid interview preparation": company does not really hope you will improve, and you urgently look for another job.
I wouldn't trade good relations with ex-manager and ex-colleagues with money. It is good to have that money since you are already in the position. But leave with exceptional/stellar reviews, have someone vouch for you.
The amount of confidence it instills in you is great. I would never want to lose steam on confidence/good momentum even if it is for a losing cause.
PIP also means that you will not get hired at given company in future. So if you leave now, you may not get severance but you will be eligible for future employment. If you wait for PIP then you will get severance but no option for future employment with current employer.
Just wanted to point this out.
Why on Gods green earth would you want to go back to a company that you are already on the PIP train for? It’s like going back to an ex.
you will be eligible for future employment
Lmao, come on. I mean really, come on. By the time you've been identified for PIP, the dye is cast. Your rep at that company is shit and your not going to get rehired.
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6d
dye, as in coloring of cloth. Once cast, impossible to undo
See similar 'dyed in the wool'
That's not it, though - the original phrase was Latin, "alea iacta est", famously uttered by Julius Caesar as his army crossed the Rubicon river and began the civil war which made him Emperor, and it means "the die is cast", referring to dice thrown while gambling.
I like mine better. I'm keeping it. :^)
I know. But for some people it matters. That’s why I just wanted to point it out.
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