Does it make sense to specialize in missiles, but also focus on getting a Loki?

Discussion

I think I want to specialize in missiles/rockets. The Caldari tree has lots of missile use though and has a Tengu. I keep hearing about how the Loki is much better than a Tengu though. Is it really that much better? Will the Loki be getting a nerf in the future? I wanted a Loki because I want to able to stealth around in wormholes and I was killed by one twice for my first two deaths, but I could opt for a Tengu. I'm conflicted.

Edit: I’m wondering if it’s worth it to spend all the skill point to get a Loki when many of the other ships in the minmatar tree don’t use missiles

in Eveby Kimbobinator

88%

1mo

Jackpkmn

Spoopy Newbies

1mo

The Loki can run missiles just fine.

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

Every T3C except the Proteus can run missiles. There are Heavy Assault Missiles (HAMS) are the most common, followed by Rapid Light (RLML), with regular heavy missiles (HML) being a bit more niche.

Nobody can be sure of a nerf coming to any ship, but I doubt the loki will- it used to be even stronger, but was nerfed hard a few years ago. It’s still a -very- strong ship, that can fill a lot of roles- T3C’s in general are very flexible is to their subsystems, but unlike the other 3, lokis can be convincingly armor OR shield tanked, and are one of few ships in the game with a bonus to web range. Webs allow for range control, help weapon application, and help secure tackle- it’s honestly one of the strongest forms of e-war in the game, so even nerfed, the loki is a very solid ship that is at home as a solo hunter, in a small gang, as a fleet support ship, or even a mainline doctrine fleet.

Just know that few ships are strictly “better” than others- they have to be fit for purpose. There’s lots of things a loki can do that a tengu can’t. But there’s also plenty of things I’d be much better off in a tengu for, just like there’s plenty of things I’d opt for neither, and rather be in a tiny fast frigate or a huge expensive battleship for.

Kimbobinator

1mo

What would you do in a Loki that you wouldn't in a Tengu and vice versa?

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

PVE- tengus tank harder. A 10mn blingy repped tengu can be like a marauder that doesn’t siege. Alternatively there are PVE sites that the tengus’s kinetic damage lock make it an awful choice- if the rats have high kin resists to it damage is wasted.

PVP- the tengu’s a much better long-range platform. It can be run in fleet comps with heavy missiles for high alpha, or with jams either as a dedicate ECM boat that forgoes damage in favor of shutting down select ships (I.e. enemy logi or web lokis) , it can be set up cloaky/nullified with railguns as a “slippery Pete” excellent for harassment behind enemy lines, or defending a structure or pos from getting bashed by bombers, as it can 1/2 shot many frigates from truly extreme (200km) ranges. Also as mentioned, excellent raw-DPS brawler, easily breaking 1000dps in a ham fit… thet has its drawbacks- no drone bay, SLOW and un-agile, no/few mids free for tackle, massive EM resist hole that eats up a module, typical setup of 1x EM hardner and 2x multispec is vulnerable to getting neuted off. Lack of low slots in any configuration makes it very difficult to run support fits (no lows for fitting modules like co-processors, RCU/power diagnostics, speed mods like nanofibers, or cap like flux coils / cap power relays)

Loki PVE- capable of running some escalations. Doesn’t have the outright tank of the tengu, but still workable.

Loki PVP- it’s faster and has long webs for range control, making it a solid kiter, either MWD fit or capable of being set up 100mn overprop, makes a better logi ship, as it has low slots. Arty lokis are also a thing, and can absolutely volley the bell out of a lot of smaller ships / slap hard enough against big ships to take chunks out of their tank. (720mm arty is nasty. There’s a reason the old muninn was so dominant / blocs are still flying HFI’s and slepnier)

loki is more agile / has the lows for agility, so as a BLOPS cyno hunter it can be fit with hyoerspaital rigs to get to the target quicker while still having solid XLASB (or dual LASB) tank, and with its long web, it can web+ long point a target and. Ot have to be in scram range itself, therefore still being fast enough to leave (once the cyno is finished) to survive a trap.

A dedicated long-web loki that forgoes some DPS to focus on tank/webs can be a monstrous asset to high-damage ships that struggle to track (I.e. macherial) or an oracle in your classic nano-gang situations

Loki has a drone bay (and again, webs) so it is less vulnerable to enemy tackle ships then say… a HAM tengu that can throw massive haymakers of damage that can’t apply to a frigate tackling it

Kimbobinator

1mo

This is an incredible reply. Thank you

Lithorex

CONCORD

1mo

PVE- tengus tank harder. A 10mn blingy repped tengu can be like a marauder that doesn’t siege. Alternatively there are PVE sites that the tengus’s kinetic damage lock make it an awful choice- if the rats have high kin resists to it damage is wasted.

Depends on what's there to tank against. Armor Lokis can get a mean tank against NPCs that deal EM/Therm damage

brockford-junktion

1mo

Can Loki still run L4s? I'm bored of the dominix and I'm torn between a rattlesnake which I've flown before and a Loki which I haven't and am not really sure how to fit.

thecodebenders

1mo

On the PVP side they're both solid. Loki can run 30+km web/point/RLM and be a pest that's a great first to land, makes a decent HAM platform with webs, and is a great logi. Tengu can make you blind with ECM or break 1000dps in a HAM fit without getting too blingy. Tengus generally have the raw DPS/EHP advantage, but the Loki can make up for it a bit with those webs. Specifically in wormholes, I prefer running the pest loki for getting out of escalating situations when I'm solo roaming.

cunasmoker69420

1mo

HAM = Heavy Assault Missiles rather than your Heavy Missiles

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

Only a silver medal for you, another commenter already caught that. Editing to fix it, hopefully before the third and fifth person mention it. (But not before the fourth.)

legoknekten

1mo

Heavy Assault Missile is probably what you meant with HAM's :P

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

Yep! Good catch. Hopefully still made sense in context because I mentioned regular heavies elsewhere

legoknekten

1mo

Makes sense still yeh, I'm just a spiteful bastard 😅

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

From one spiteful bastard to another, we do make some of the best eve stories lol. Heists, logoff-traps, unspeakable levels of griefing & salt-mining are all born of spite & malice.

legoknekten

1mo

There's something to be said about recruiting people at gunpoint & then going wormholing for 2 years

Kimbobinator

1mo

I’m just wondering if it’s worth it to spend all the skill point to get a Loki when many of the other ships in the minmatar tree don’t use missiles

Jackpkmn

Spoopy Newbies

1mo

Weapon skills are the heaviest investment SP wise. A lot of the other support skills apply to other similar ships like the Tengu. Once you have missles trained up with their support skills and the other shield support skills cross training into for example the Tengu is pretty easy.

sonicarrow

Wormholer

1mo

There are plenty of good ones that do! Cyclone, cyclone fleet, typhoon, rapier just to name a few. You'll eventually end up wanting to train everything, so pick something you want to fly now and you'll use pretty much all of it at one point or another!

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

Talwar, scythe fleet issue, bifrost too!

Meinereiner_EVE

1mo

Even the corvette can fit 2 launchers *g*

Lock_Scram_Web_F1

1mo

Vigil, vigil fleet issue, probe fleet, the breacher is a rocket boat, the hound ofc wit its torps (or the meme of the rockethound terrorizing explorers)

The muninn got converted from guns to all-missile (maybe still has 1x turret slot?)

Rapier has 3x launchers… then there’s the weird split-gun boats, like how the huginn has one launcher slot, the cane/HFI have 2…. Hell a long, long time ago the Nagalfar had one launcher and 2 guns.

Guess we also forgot battleships, the phoon is an all missile boat, and the typhoon fleet swings both ways, with full bonuses to -either- guns or launchers.

Tl;dr, to the original poster… missiles are Minmatar’s secondary weapon system, in the same way you trained caldari ships focusing on missile skills, they make plenty of excellent hybrid-turret boats.

You may also find use for your missile skills in the Amarr ship lines, as though they are known for their lasers, the legion finds frequent use as a HAM boat, along with the Sacrilige and Damnation, the heretic defends itself with rockets as does the Vengence, and the geddon navy is a missile boat.

The only outlier is gallente, I believe the only gallente ship to solely use missiles is the nemesis, by nature of it being a stealth bomber, but even then those missile skills and gallente hull skills come together for flying Mordu’s Legion line ships, the garmur, orthrus and barghest.

DasToyfel

1mo

You will eventually unfocus from minmatar and go into other trees for corp-doctrins. You will never focus on only one thing. Its better to get 5 things to a mediocre level than just 1 thing to perfection, especially when you fly corp-doctrin with your mates.

cunasmoker69420

1mo

naw man Minimatar is like the #2 missile users in the game, you will find a ship for every purpose in the minmatar fleet that uses missiles

Garresh

1mo

Minmatar have missile ships in every class. And for PvE a lot of people prefer missiles over autocannons (before stuff like Vargur anyways). There's no issue with going Minmatar and Missiles. After all you could apply the same logic to Caldari and forgoing hybrid weapons.

Edit: Also, looking at the covert subsystems, Tengu is locked to shields, while Loki can run shields OR armor. Shields are better for PvE especially in wspace so it's not a huge point, but that flexibility may prove useful if you want to flex or do something else.

Asa_Shahni

1mo

Just train all racial cruiser 5 tbh ^{^}

Historical-Bit-4416

1mo

Missiles are generally speaking the best weapons system in the game, and three of the four t3c's use missiles more often than their other weapons systems. Can't go wrong. The Loki isn't really better than the Tengu, it's just more versatile. The Loki is a generalist, while the Tengu is more specialised.

God i wish the Proteus had a missiles subsystem.

Kimbobinator

1mo

what is the Tengu specialized in?

Kats41

Wormholer

1mo

Most Tengu fits are HAM. Tengus also have a subsystem for hybrid weapons, but if you're gonna run blasters or rails, you're probably just gonna fly a Proteus anyways.

Tengus have the capability of vomiting a purely absurd amount of DPS through HAMs if you fit it a bit blingy.

I have a super aggressive HAMgu fit with a missile head that will break 1300 DPS. The Tengu runs about 1.5 bil and the head another bil, so 2.5b overall. Fairly blingy for T3C's, but the raw DPS and tank it has is hilarious to watch in action. It just deletes things. Lmao.

FisherKelEve

-12

1mo

Missiles

But that comment he made is dumb. Missiles aren’t the best. T3Cs are a fluke. They are usually very bad for pvp

emPtysp4ce

Pandemic Horde

1mo

Missiles aren't necessarily bad for PvP, the killmarks on my Hookbill will speak to that. The issue is that you have to think of them differently than you do the turrets, which is a bit annoying.

FisherKelEve

-2

1mo

I said usually, not always. Missiles have a large handicap. For some ships they’re still the best option, despite that handicap

Doggydog123579

1mo

flails angrily in Caracal fleet

elucca

1mo

Can you explain why you think some of the best and most flexible pvp ships are bad for pvp? That's quite a take.

FisherKelEve

1mo

Loki won’t get a nerf. Legion could use a buff though. ATM Loki > Tengu > Proteus > > Legion. If you do cloaky shit a lot, your main T3C is a big choice, so do it. If you don’t, save it for later. Eventually you’ll have both missile and gunnery skills so don’t stress too much about it.

Kimbobinator

1mo

I'm mostly doing stealthy stuff with my friends in wormhole space. Does that mean I should do Loki in your opinion? One of my friends is going for a Loki if that makes a difference and he is much closer. Would that change things?

Omnishift

KarmaFleet

1mo

Loki is a solid first T3C. Missiles are great on it. Also, the Min Cruiser V I think unlocks better ships than Cald Cruiser V.

But the way you are talking, do you really have the support skills for a T3C? You should have good shield skills and missile skills. Additionally, everything that helps with capacitor should be near max if not V.

User deleted comment

1mo

emPtysp4ce

Pandemic Horde

1mo

Consider: you don't have to reload drones.

User deleted comment

1mo

paulHarkonen

1mo

Uhhhh which drone boats also use missiles? None of the gallente line (the premier drone boats) do. I guess the Guristas line? I wouldn't call that "most"...

User deleted comment

1mo

EL3GEAN

Honorable Third Party

1mo

Ratting rorqs!

Meinereiner_EVE

1mo

Amarr

paulHarkonen

1mo

I'm not sure I'd describe Amarr hulls as "most strong drone boats".

SnowWhiteFeather

1mo

The Curse would be the exception? Web bonuses, drone space, and extra pointy missiles.

paulHarkonen

1mo

I actually didn't realize the curse had a missile bonus, normally the high slots are full of neuts.

MoD1982

1mo

[cries in Nightmare rainbow lasers]

Super_Swordfish_6948

Wormholer

1mo

HAM Loki is very versatile.

Kats41

Wormholer

1mo

Missiles are probably the most dynamic weapon type in the game because they apply 100% of their damage to a specific resistance. This means that missiles have the potential to always be hitting the weakest resist of anything you fight with full effectiveness.

In practice it's a lot more complicated than that, but if you're looking for a weapon platform that every faction has at least decent support for, missiles are the way to go.

S_Rodney

1mo

Nothing wrong with missiles. I prefer to use them myself in PvE content like Abyssals. I do not have a T3 Cruiser, so I can't really advise you on 'em but I usually meet more Tengus with missiles than any other types of T3C.

ottoboy97

Cloaked

1mo

Funny because I fly a Loki and everyone tells me Tengu is better.

My Loki uses heavy assault missiles and I push out over 1,000 DPS overheated and has an active rep of something like 300hp/s so I highly attest to using them.

But with that being said my pod is also like 2b which greatly increases my shield boosting (High-Grade Crystal set) , I use a 3% PG and than every slot from 7-10 is straight bonuses for missiles and HAM damage

ottoboy97

Cloaked

1mo

Also, every T3 has the ability to fit a cov ops cloaking device and an extended scan probe launcher 😊 (I believe so at least)

Moonlight345

Space Violence.

1mo

Depends on the specific scenario. But for most pvp engagements, given a sane level of fittings, loki's web range tend to make it a safe bet. Also better application [iirc] and no kinetic lock.

SlinkyBits

1mo

in almost all scenerios, the tangu is going to be able of equiping a slightly stronger tank, with stronger cap to support it, and more cpu free to install damage mods

the loki wins with speed, and long range webs, the webs are really really nice.

they both have thier strengths, the issue is the lokis strength is being a slightly weak tengu with very powerful webs as a reward.

Onyzian

1mo

Will Loki be nerfed? Probably not. Should it be nerfed? Probably yes. Its the most popular T3C by a very large margin, atleast as far as pvp is concerned. Loki is quite possibly the single strongest (non-AT) cruiser at the moment, especially since the iki nerfs.

BoredVet85

Test Alliance Please Ignore

1mo

Must be a new player. There's multiple ships in the minmatar platform that use missiles. Breacher very fun brawl ship, talwar also fun, Bellicose, cyclone, and Typhoon.

_LegalizeMeth_

1mo

Talwar is dank, love it

EL3GEAN

Honorable Third Party

1mo

It doesn't make sense to specialize in any 1 weapon type.

Praisemybacon

-5

1mo

You could fly a loki but it will turn you into a t3crutch player instead of actually learning how to pilot properly.

jenrai

Stay Frosty.

1mo

Show us on zkill where the loki shot you

Praisemybacon

1mo

The same poo pilot lokis that can't web kite off a ventures scram then eat shit to a praxis.