ETA: title correction. I can't edit the title but it is poorly worded. Should read as the original, which is "Why Debate Performances Shouldn't be Overvalued: A Case Study of Biden VS. Trump"
Here's an article breaking down the reasons people should not put so much credence into the debate performances the other night. https://stopproject2025com.wordpress.com/2024/06/30/why-debate-performances-shouldnt-be-overvalued-a-case-study-of-biden-vs-trump/
They could pull a full on Weekend at Biden's and I'd still vote for him.
The choice is that or an end to democracy.
It's not a hard choice.
For me, Biden has two huge points going for him, that no one else can claim. The first point is actually many -- all of his accomplishments. The second point is that he's the only person to have won an election over Trump.
And winning against Trump is most of what I care about in this election.
I think Kamala Harris can fairly claim to have been a part of those accomplishments. For them to happen, she had to cast a record number of tiebreaking votes in the Senate. What The Biden-Harris administration got passed through Congress is truly incredible and historians will look back on this era in bewilderment how the American people were so apathetic about these accomplishments.
Biden stepping down would hand the election to Trump. Is that your goal? Wake the hell up! This is not a normal election, where you could say “the less of two evils”. Trump will literally DESTROY THIS COUNTRY. Biden has done a great job for 4 years. His cabinet is fully capable and competent. Can you say the same about Shits In Pants? Stop all this negative thinking regarding Biden. Vote for him and get rid of Trump once and for all.
You are preaching to the choir as I agree with you. I plan to vote for Biden.
Why would switching candidates hand the election to Trump?
At this point aren't we most concerned about disaffected young voters who are pissed about climate change and Gaza, and independents? I feel someone like Newsom or Whitmer would have more appeal for those groups. And they're much younger, which might attract independents. And it wouldn't take away any votes from die-hard Democrats.
I don't see the downside. To be clear, I'm voting Biden if he's on the ballot. But I'm growing increasingly concerned that we're fucked and are going to lose all of Congress and the presidency.
Because we're most concerned about human rights in general. Reproductive health for women. Rights for women in general. And rights for LGBTQ+ people and minorities. Equal rights for all people who will have their rights taken away if Trump gets in.
That didn’t address their question at all. Biden was behind in the polls before the disaster, and I fear his chances of victory just went from hard to very unlikely. People keep countering criticism of Biden with arguments against Trump, that’s missing the point. We aren’t the ones in play, it’s all the less engaged folks that may or may not decide to vote that now have valid concerns about Biden’s ability to serve as an effective commander in chief.
Poll after poll says a supermajority thinks Biden is too old. CNN poll came out with 73% of voters are concerned about his ability to serve. He may have some great accomplishments but he has been terrible at communicating them.
Someone like Whitmer has very little baggage, is younger, can actually stick up for herself on a debate stage, and imo has a much better chance of defeating Trump.
I posit that for the sake of stopping Trump we need to be honest about Biden and his ability to run a winning campaign. I know changing candidates at this time is risky, but not as risky as sticking with Biden.
Polls are nonsense. We just need to vote for Biden! Yes, he's hated just as much as trump, but he's better than trump in a lot of ways. What other Dem candidates do we realistically have, though? They're all putting their money on Biden.
Polls are not nonsense. Quit saying Trump is worse, it’s besides the point, obviously we agree. Obviously I’ll vote for Biden if he’s on the ballot. Anyone reading this will vote for Biden. But I truly don’t believe he can win at this point. Denying the impact of his performance the other night is to deny reality.
Newsom, Shapiro, and Whitmer are the names I’m seeing as serious contenders and I’m rooting for Whitmer. Harris of course is in the conversation but I think that’s a bad choice.
Any of the arguments being made here against Trump would work with any Dem candidate.
I know all of us here are more than likely voting for Biden. But people who don't vote are giving Trump ground to stand on, that's why I'm pointing that out. We need as many people as possible to vote for Biden so that Trump loses ground to stand on and Biden wins in a landslide.
And what do you tell the average Joe from middle America that is seeing the clips of Biden looking like a nursing home patient barely being able to get through a sentence, and staring mouth agape like he’s lost?
‘He had a cold’ ‘he had a bad night’ aren’t acceptable for the commander in chief when there’s a national emergency or he’s in a room negotiating with Xi Xinping. Any major corporation would force out a CEO if they showed up to the most important board meeting of the year acting like Biden acted.
He did give a good speech after his debate with Trump, though. That'll work in his favor.
It’s not enough. We can’t unsee what we saw. And you can’t convince me that he’s not going to get worse over the next four years.
This literally has nothing to do with the question I asked. Clearly I give a shit about human rights since, as I clearly stated, I will vote for Biden if he's on the ballot in November.
I asked why it would be detrimental to run someone like Whitmer or Newsom instead. All of the people who are currently planning to vote for Biden would still vote for either of them. And it also has a chance to reach some independents and disaffected young voters - groups that are not currently guaranteed to vote for Biden.
It's going to come down to a few thousand or tens of thousands of votes in a handful of counties, so why not cast a wider net with a candidate that might have broader appeal?
The title is confusing here. "Debate performances do not matter" is different from "Debate performances should not matter".
Indeed the article said they did matter because Trump played all the tricks to the hilt.
I see your point. The title was not well articulated and in retrospect I agree. What would be a better title?
I would just use the actual one. Although you can't change the original post title, you could edit your post and put that in at the top, *Title Correction:* or similar. Maybe with the "should" in italics or something like that.
It's certainly not the end of the world though; so much stuff goes through Reddit every hour. But thanks for considering this.
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You can lose a debate and still win the election. In that way, debate performances don't mean much.
You can't lose a debate worse than anyone has ever lost a debate in modern history, completely validate every talking point against you as to why you shouldn't be president, and give your opponent nationality televised rally where you're unable to refute any of his lies.
This "article" is just a few paragraphs at unsourced cope.
Biden got taken out by a pretty average Gish Gallop because he looked like he was in a coma up there. There's no damage control here. At the very least he should step down and let Harris pick a VP and run with it.
+1 that if Biden steps down, it has to be Harris that becomes the nominee. So many people asking Biden to step down are then wishcasting the absolutely randomest Dems.
I think Kamala Harris's unpopularity is sadly a self fulfilling prophecy. Everyone shits on her for being unpopular. She's going to be on the ticket one way or another, we should be building her up not trampling her down all the time!
I don't disagree with what you stated about stepping down. However, I would be surprised to see that happen. I am less concerned about it than some because I understand that we are voting for an entire administration and not just a person. Otherwise, I would be scared too.
I’m more in your camp. I can look at Biden’s interview with Howard Stern literally 5 weeks ago, and invalidate every reactive talking point.
If Biden is at the stage of his life where he has "good days and bad days" that's an argument for him stepping down in and of itself.
Everybody is at that stage of their life.
It's not that I'm not voting for him but you guys can't copium and gaslight your way to beating Trump.
meanwhile Trump shits his pants in public and his supporters gleefully don golden underpants
A five week old interview vs a debate performance. If you consider that gaslighting and copium, you need a dictionary.
I think he needs to step down and let somebody else run, but the particular justification you used is farcical.
I'm thinking like a swing voter, not a politically engaged person.
I don't think Biden is in the state he was in that debate 24/7, but the fact that he's in that state sometimes is enough that he should step aside.
I skimmed a few words and could immediately tell this "article" was AI slop .
This article is kinda making the argument that Biden is toast. It outlined the issues with modern debates, and then emphasized how Trump leveraged them to win.
If by leveraged you mean stood up there and ignored questions and lied continuously then yes, yes he did. But that's why the debate forum is pointless. Because people (not just Trump; any candidate) are not held accountable for blatant dishonesty and refusal to directly answer questions. It's pointless.
Yeah, but the point is, debates are not about substance, it's about optics and feelings. Pointing out that the debate format is flawed doesn't negate what happened.
And yes, that is what I mean. When Trump lied, and refused to answer questions, he looked competent and confident doing it, and Biden looked like he had no idea where he was, and was having a hard time staying awake.
That's what people are going to remember.
Biden needs to step down. Democracy is on the line and global security is on the fucking line and Biden is commited to being a selfish old prick. He needs to step down immediately, an act of selflessness and honour.
and replace him with who?
Literally anyone that isn't geriatric.
I think you're missing the point of the question. When people are asking who you would replace them with. Replacing him would be a nightmare. There would be so much infighting and it would take so long. It would absolutely destroy any chance of the democratic party's candidate winning this election. It's not like there's some consensus replacement candidate that everybody's already decided on. It just cannot be done at this point and still win the election. Even if I agreed that under ideal circumstances he should step down, which I actually don't agree with, I would still say that it cannot be done because we do not have ideal circumstances. In addition, as everyone's saying, there's literally no indication in any of the polls that this debate performance hurt him at all. And in fact, in a few focus groups and smaller polls, it seems to have actually turned some undecideds to voting for Biden because they cared more about Trump spewing lies and speaking in complete and ridiculous hyperbole than they did about Biden stumbling over his words And having a hoarse voice.
It's less so Biden and more so the bigwigs in the DNC. Yeah he never said it directly but he himself was implying that he would most likely be a 1 term president. Unless I am woefully misinformed, it wasn't his choice to not allow other Democrats to run against him to see what people wanted. And after what happened to Bernie...
No, it is literally Biden. He holds the cards here and he is the only person that can make the decision to step down. This has been covered in shitloads of articles as soon as the debate was over. Biden is the only person who can decide to step down and he doesn't want to. He is showing every single voter that he doesn't really care about democracy, security or the country unless HE can be president.
What is happening to this Reddit community? To everyone taking the time to say over and over again that Biden should step down, you are missing the bigger picture. It’s your own actions that will determine the outcome of the election, not the candidate.
The polls haven’t even suggested Biden lost very much at all. And also all of the donations and funding the Biden campaign has can’t simply be transfers to someone else. And also all the polls have show any replacement candidate to be performing worse than Biden.
Let the actual data speak for itself. All this dooming about Biden is taking our collective efforts away from our own movement that should be about stopping Project 2025 no matter what!
Take your fears, your worries and volunteer. Knock on as many doors as you can and express your fears and terror about Project 2025 to everyone you can. This isn’t about the President, this is about us and our future. We have more power than we realize. We must continue to unite and communicate to others the consequences of inaction.