I dont se how its plausable humans came from evolution alone/purely naturalistic causes.

Not sure if this is the right sub for this as I dont take issue with the theory of evolution broadly but I wasn't sure where else to go.

Basically as the title says I dont se how anyone can honestly look at the existence of humanity with the incomprehensibly small likelyhood of our existence and conclude it came about purely through random naturalistic selection. Given the strikingly small likelyhood of life emerging unto itself, given the perilous treck from single celled life to multi celled bacteria to more complex sea life to amphibious life to land life to the rise of large land animals and finally to mamals with sufficiently complex neural networks capable of forming language, mathmatical reasoning and eventually all the complex scientific reasoning we se today while also all but universally professing a belief in and experience with a God/Gods; I dont se how this could possibly be the product of random natural selection.

The existence of humanity to me more then any other life if for no other reason then our uniqueness compared to all other life given our unparrelleled mental capabilities speaks to the existence of some intelligence which sought this outcome.

It would have been very, VERY easy for humanity to have gone extinct multiple times throughout its development and before due to pandemic or climate change or some other natural catastrophe and the fact that we have developed to the stage we are building large hydron colliders and space vessels speaks to me that something that someone acted to ensure our existence beyond the mere forces of natural selection.

in DebateEvolutionby MattCrispMan117

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1mo

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satus_unus

1mo

We're not that unique We're just incrementally better at some things. Language is found in other species. Self awareness, social cooperation, empathy, and ethical judgement are found in other species. Tool use, basic math, and reasoning are found in other species.

All the things that make us "unique" are found elsewhere in the animal kingdom.

GoOutForASandwich

Evolutionist

1mo

How do you define language, and what other species have it?

satus_unus

1mo

Language is a the use of a finite set of arbitrary vocal, manual, or visual elements that can be combined following some set of rules to convey meaning

Campbell's monkey's for example combine the same calls in different ways using simple grammar rules to create different meanings. Chimpanzees also have this capacity. Dolphn pods have different dialects, that demonstrates that the vocabulary of dolphin sounds is not instinctual but is learned. Gorillas famously can be taught sign language, and show a clear comprehension of symbolic meaning. Bees can convey complex geospatial information through interpretive dance.

GoOutForASandwich

Evolutionist

1mo

Do the authors of the papers demonstrating these phenomena refer to these cases as being “language”? Note also that the vocal repertoires of Campbell’s monkeys and chimps appear to be species-specific with the acoustic structure being a product of natural selection such that they facilitate their function, and being a product of natural selection makes them non-arbitrary. Bee waggle dances are definitely not arbitrary. Apes learning sign language shows important capacities, but their natural gestural communication appears far more limited. The natural communication systems of Dolphins and songbirds probably meets your definition, but most experts would consider that definition to be one component of “language”, and in my experience they’re careful to not describe what these species have as language in their peer reviewed work.

satus_unus

1mo

Sure I'll grant all of that but my point us that precursors to the things that make humans "unique" are found in species other than humans. Perhaps i should have used a term like 'proto-language' or 'language-like abilities' to better articulate that, turns out this language thing is hard ;)

The step from the rest of the animal kingdom to human that OP is incredulous of is not as big a step as they think.

GoOutForASandwich

Evolutionist

1mo

Agree!

satus_unus

26d

I happened across this paper published in Nature Communications today and was reminded of our conversation:

Contextual and combinatorial structure in sperm whale vocalisations | Nature Communications

Conclusion from the paper:

Our results demonstrate that sperm whale vocalisations form a complex combinatorial communication system: the seemingly arbitrary inventory of coda types can be explained by combinations of rhythm, tempo, rubato, and ornamentation features. Sizable combinatorial vocalisation systems are exceedingly rare in nature; however, their use by sperm whales shows that they are not uniquely human, and can arise from dramatically different physiological, ecological, and social pressures.

These findings also offer steps towards understanding how sperm whales transmit meaning. In some organisms with combinatorial codes, such as honey bees (Apis sp.), the constituent features of the code transparently encode semantics (e.g., direction and distance to food sources). Further research on sperm whale vocalisations may investigate if rhythm, tempo, ornamentation, and rubato function similarly, directly encoding whales’ communicative intents. Alternatively, one of the key differentiators between human communication and all known animal communication systems is duality of patterning: a base set of individually meaningless elements that are sequenced to generate a very large space of meanings. The existence of a combinatorial coding system-at either the level of sounds, sound sequences, or both-is a prerequisite for duality of patterning. Our findings open up the possibility that sperm whale communication might provide our first example of that phenomenon in another species.

GoOutForASandwich

Evolutionist

24d

Thanks for that. The cetaceans seem like the candidates for the most complex communication system among nonhuman animals, and one of the hardest to study. Will be interesting to see how complex!