Cardinals After Dark 7/3

We did a good job of rebuilding the bullpen. Our issue is we don’t have arms in Memphis to call up and give the bullpen a breather. Great teams are able to manipulate the roster to get fresh arms in throughout the season. All the close games certainly isn’t helping either.

Dr_thri11

There seem to actually be a lot of guys in Memphis or pinging between here and Memphis that are capable of pitching quality innings. The real issue is all the wins are close games. Can't let the Memphis protect a 1 run lead.

Detective_Dietrich

What?

give the bullpen a breather

Never letting a starter go past 80 pitches no matter what also contributes to this.

True but with our backup options at starter that is also understandable. On paper our rotation/bullpen was upgraded “enough”, but in practice when one of those pieces goes down we are screwed. I do think there is some degree of oli over managing, but he is also dealt his cards by the upper brass. I’m not an oli sympathizer by any means but indifferent on him this season.

That being said I also think upper management did an “okay” job of upgrading the pitching staff. Not great, not horrible. What they do at the deadline will help me decide their overall job this year

Heart & Hustle

We got Roycroft and Leahy who have been really good for us and I'm excited to see them back. I think our pen is actually in a really solid spot.

Agree they have been good just not utilized as much as should be. Seems like all the big three need like a week off though. Helsley has looked good recently but that’s not sustainable for 162 games.

Heart & Hustle

Agreed, time for some other guys to try out for the 7-8-9 roles. Popcorn pen

sn0wb0ard6

This team seems to have some heart and energy again. I like Burly and Winn for the years to come. We do have pitching problems I will admit. I am just glad to see them playing (mostly) competitive games and not being fully lifeless. Trying to find some positive in the doom and gloom here.

EDIT: Siani is a stud in the outfield.

Heart & Hustle

You're right. And even then, our pitching has been honestly really good (for the most part) since like... Late May? Something like that.

Regardless of what I have to say of Mr. Gotta Pitch Top of Pen Every Single Game, I’m just thankful that I get to watch Jacob Bosiokovic play LF on a nightly basis

Heart & Hustle

What would this team be without famous Utility Gold Glover Jacob Bosiokovic? What a glorious day to be an American 🫡

tiredpharmacist85

Why is Leahy still down in Memphis?

tiredpharmacist85

Nevermind, I’m dumb and forget the rules sometimes.

rayr54

-9

Marmol keeps trotting out Gallegos and Kitteridge, and they keep getting pounded. What can Marmol be thinking? Marmol must go.

Heart & Hustle

Kitt has been really really really good for us and is definitely not the issue here. We have the best Big 3 in the MLB, Kitt included.

green_tea1701

Sonny Gray truther (fite me)

It's not like he can trot out Eckersley and Rivera. I don't get the shifting of blame from FO, who determines the resources Oli has, to Oli, who uses what he's given.

Not even saying Oli is my guy or anything but like, is he just supposed to not use the relievers he has? Have Helsley pitch every relief inning? Obviously not.

-3

That’s the fucking problem. Your manager is trying to trot your top 3 out every single game and wearing them thin, instead of trusting a lower-tier guy with a 3-4 run lead every now and then

Feisty-Medicine-3763

I don’t buy this idea that Gio is like Oli’s boy or something. If he’s with the club (which isn’t in Oli’s control), you’re gonna have to use him in a semi meaningful spot at some point. He failed. I don’t think he’ll be with the team much longer.

Heart & Hustle

Yep. Eye test says don't play Gio, but the historical record says play Gio. And now the evidence is clear that both say don't play Gio.

Maybe Oli wanted to show him that the team still believed in him. And Gio showed that he doesn't believe in himself. Pretty clear that it's time to move on.

Call_Me_Your_Daddy

I will relish the day we are rid of Gallegos, he has worn out his welcome

dae_giovanni

Kevin Mitchell's barehanded catch

I dont have any hot takes, I'm just tired of watching Gio pitch and I'm tired of worrying about Jojo and I'm tired of watching our offense struggle.

shit happens. just gotta be better.

-15

Good to see that the majority of you have accepted mediocrity. I guess all is fine in Cardinal nation.

Heart & Hustle

Man, we must look pretty small from that high horse.

FartNoiseGross

🍰

I just don’t define my life based on how my sports team does and then it ends up not really being that big of a deal

Historical-Key5613

Romero has been ass for like 3 weeks….He was so good the 2.5 months so his ERA is still respectable

Heart tour cancelled because Ann Wilson will be undergoing chemotherapy for cancer :((

Heart & Hustle

Yeah, he's struggling heavily. Idk if he's missing his locations or everyone knows to just not swing at his slider anymore because it's probably low and away

STLOliver

Don’t worry, guys. Oli said they’re gonna try to get Gio out there a little more often to see what he’s got.

peterpeterllini

Put A Bird On It

So bummed. I’ve seen them twice but I was so looking forward to the show in October!

Here’s to hoping they come back in ‘25.

Heart & Hustle

The intro to Crazy on You is one of the best guitar riffs ever written. Ann Wilson is an absolute badass and will definitely be rooting for her

Nocktoberfest

Nope. Old music sucks ass

Heart & Hustle

Lol thank you for your brave opinion. Wouldn't want to be "cringe" would we?

DiscoJer

They are one of those groups I don't particularly like, but admit they are really good, just not to my taste.

It's time for Arenado to head to the IL with lower back stiffness

Same with Gorman. Throw Goldschmidt with them too. What happened to Oli saying the players need to earn their spot? Would love to see him call out Arenado for lack of hustle like he did Tyler O'Neill

Cards2WS

Where was Nado not hustling? Dude is like the slowest guy in the league, his full blown sprint is very slow in itself.

O’Neill was provably not running his hardest and it led to getting thrown out at the plate—deserved to get called out and it’s so odd that people had such an issue with it.

The other day a player legit made an error on his grounder and he didn't bother running to first, a light jog. A rookie/young player would've been benched for it

AureliusCorvinus

Radio listener, stuck in 1948

I genuinely feel like the Phillies have not lost a game in five years

AspiringOccultist4

DFA Gallegos

Brewdrizy

-5

Only question I have after today is this: Is Ryan Helsley incapable of going two days in a row?

Heart & Hustle

We need to know there are other guys who can close. My money is on Fernandez being that guy with Roycroft and Libby splitting the fireman roles with Libby also getting long relief shots and spot starts.

Riley O'Fryin (let him cook)

He has pitched back to back days 8 times this season. If Helsley isn't available someone else has to step up. Having 31 saves on a team with 44 wins means you're doing more than enough.

SomethingAvid

100%. The dude just set the franchise record for most saves before the all star break. We don’t need to be barking because he’s unavailable

WellExcuuuuuuuseMe

Adios Oli & Mo!

Going to check out some other games. Cubs are losing, so this might not be a completely bad day. See everyone tomorrow for an early game. Go Cards!

tor122

it’s just an all around rough year for this team.. zero offense (I did not miss that goldy strikeout with several men on base), spotty pitching, and a hit or miss bullpen. Arenado is just a non-threat at the plate and Goldy is no where to be seen.

Disappointing team that needs a lot of work. I hope the second half of the season is better.

-2

We just need to get Arenado and Goldschmidt out of the lineup. Cards fans love to talk about how they're "actually not that bad" because they have 0.7 WAR or some trash. They are pathetic in clutch situations and clearly bringing the team down (Arenado especially with his lack of hustle/leadership)

This team needs to stick Burleson at first, Walker at third, and move on. Nootbaar, Edman, Siani, Donovan in the outfield.

It seems like I’ve watched Arenado get on base more than anyone but maybe Winn lately, just to watch the guys behind him choke on a fat one. Not just pointed at you, but the other jackass saying the same stupid shit about sitting Nolan up above.

That is your bias then. He's been really bad since the start of May

The fact that he got on base every game but 4 of the last 17 in June isn’t bias. He also hit .270 through June, so if that’s “really bad”, most of the league is “really bad”. His WRC+ is just below average for third basemen and just 11 guys have a better DWar than him out of qualified third baseman. Maybe they should call up Walker, who is batting.155 with a -0.4 WAR in AAA to play third, or move Gorman who is batting something like .070 his past 75 AB to his natural position.

Standards have lowered so much I guess. His ops is abysmal, not driving in any runs, not hitting for any power, lackluster defense. Highest paid position player in the NL is producing at a below average level. Just an awful contract that you are rationalizing because he scraped batting .270 over a 17 game stretch with a few bloop singles

On the bright side the Mets lost and padres are losing so it could be a “nothing” game for us. Just win the series tomorrow and act like this didn’t happen.

peterpeterllini

Put A Bird On It

Losing sucks :(

WellExcuuuuuuuseMe

Adios Oli & Mo!

Do the Cardinals not have any arms they can bring up?

Riley O'Fryin (let him cook)

We do but the FO will have to take Gio out back and put him down and idk if they're ready to do that.

Dr_Talon

That was an exciting game. I also find it amusing how quickly it fell apart for us.

Evownz

The fact that the Cardinals keep having this much trouble handling shitty and middling teams proves pretty conclusively what kind of team this is. Mo and co. should be embarrassed.

That's not how baseball works. In fact, that's not how any of this works. I get that you're mad but that's a hilariously absurd thing to say.

Evownz

It's not how baseball works? Good teams don't consistently beat bad teams? Dude, in the last month we split a series against the Rockies, we lost 2 of 3 against Miami, we split another series against the Reds. These are not good teams. If we were decent, we should be consistently winning series against bad teams. That is, in fact, exactly how baseball works.

Baseball, more than any other major American sport, is a long season. Trying to use strength of opponent as a metric of performance is practically impossible because of the extreme variance in a teams performance over the course of a season. So while I understand you feel like that's how baseball should work, it really just doesn't work like that. Tonight, for example: Helsley has 30 straight saves, but for one reason or another he wasn't available tonight. If you had projected our team with Helsley vs without, how does that affect the opponents "strength of opponent"? It certainly is less impressive.

PatriceWas14YearsOld

Donovan Osborne Truther

Can any argument be made for keeping Giovanny Gallegos on the roster? DFA him yesterday.

-8

He’s given us several years of good relief, the longest tenured guy in our pen. Don’t give up on him after 12 bad innings.

Riley O'Fryin (let him cook)

If they trusted the peripherals that said Alec Burleson will be good they have to also trust the peripherals that say Gio is cooked. Gio could barely get outs in AA.

-4

“Peripherals” have such little meaning in this small of a sample. Give it until August with low leverage work before just letting him go.

Riley O'Fryin (let him cook)

This sample goes back to last year. He had issues with hard hit rate and barrel rate last year and now he has added a high walk rate on top of that this year. Combine this with his drop in velo and drop in movement on his pitches and it's pretty obvious it's time to move on from him. We can't even use him in low leverage because he is so inefficient that he doesn't get outs.

-5

He was still effective with absurd whiff and chase rates and a K-BB% over 20. He’s allowed barrels his whole career not like it’s a new development pitchers can navigate that and still be effective. Calling for an immediate DFA with this little innings this year is reactionary at best and stupid at worst.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

He's out of options. It's either hamstring the bullpen with his ineffectiveness, which we can't afford because the pen is taxed enough as it is, or DFA him and bring up someone that has already proved their effectiveness this year.. Aka Roycroft or Leahy

Thealbumisjustdrums

JoJo was throwing absolute MEATBALLS out there. When's the last time he's looked good?

Heart & Hustle

It was like a light switch flipped. Suddenly no Mojo.

Bout to be back to 7 down

tevis55

Helsley would’ve given up a warning track fly ball to advance the runner then walk the next two guys and finally strike out the next two guys with six pitches. Like a true professional.

Main_Strain4176

Good game. They have energy.

Oli continues to be questionable on managing the bullpen. Is he actually making the calls or being told what to do by the org?

Up_Kaleidoscope888

This is such a stupid take. Dude, Oli's job is to try and win games. He has actually gone a really good job overall handling the bullpen. When you have 2/3 of The Big Three not throwing very well, and guys needing rest, you do what you can. If the pitcher doesn't throw well, that's on him, not the manager.

-2

This is actually the real stupid take. The reason the “2/3 of The Big Three” are toast is because management toasted them. You got to have the balls to throw one of the lighter arms in there every now and then with 3 run leads just so not to toast your big three. There were guys concerned about this weeks ago that you real stupid takers were downvoting and Oli n company has done nothing but wring every little bit they have left in them since. Thank goodness the AS break is coming. Stupid takers.

Up_Kaleidoscope888

Do you watch the games? Oli HAS thrown people other than The Big Three in crucial spots. There have been many times he has held one of them back. They aren't struggling from overuse; they are regressing to the mean. That's not on Oli. Why some of you still have a hard-on for Shildt and/or refuse to give Oli credit for anything astounds me.

“Oli HAS thrown people other than The Big Three in crucial spot”

Because he has had to due to not having “The Big Three” available due to using them every chance he’s had in non-crucial spots. You’re providing evidence against your own argument. Three run lead? Better use JoJo, Kittredge, Helsley every single time. This entire circle-jerk of a sub was pretending like this club didn’t have a chance at the playoffs a couple weeks ago. You’re all schizo because you change your minds every week according to what makes you sound smart in your minds. At least I’m consistent, and will remain so until Oli is inducted into the hall of fame. This team is competitive right now in spite of Oli and company, not because of.

Oli consistently putting guys in situations they can excel in has never been enough, the players also have to execute or it's just a dumb decision by Oli obviously (/s)

Main_Strain4176

Cool. I enjoy your take.

Main_Strain4176

Mike Schildt and inquiring minds would like to know.

TheMoonsMadeofCheese

Good on JoJo to preserve Helsley's blown save streak

Superdude3333

When does Jojo fall out of Oli’s circle of trust? He has not looked good at all lately and he’s still getting thrown out there in high leverage spots.

We pitched Gio in this game. I think Romero’s leash is gonna be hella long.

-4

Yea no for sure you have nothing against Gio btw LOL

I don’t. He was pitched in too many games in the past few years and is spent and I understand the loyalty this team has to him with regards to wanting to avoid a DFA (which I’m not calling for).

But he shouldn’t have been pitched in this game.

My post was pointing out that loyalty runs deep for some of these guys and Romero is nowhere close to falling out of anyone’s good graces.

This is the part where you’ll call me stupid or something and then say you weren’t personally attacking me, so move along.

-1

It is what it is, you're in a bad mood today, and I engaged with it because i'm in a bad mood and actual trolls aren't worth engaging.

I am not in a bad mood today. You really don’t know me and probably should stop acting like you do.

This game never felt like it was ours to win, we blew too many chances at the plate and the Pirates are a fun team to quasi-root for, so I don’t hate losing to them. Plus I’m off tomorrow.

I still don’t think this was a good spot to bring Gio into; if nothing else, for his own mental game.

-4

True, I used to have some level of respect for you, now I understand you don't actually seem to know baseball and are really just an emotional fan.

I don’t think about you at all.

-2

People misusing this line and not understanding it's a hilarious self own will never not be funny.

It wasn’t an homage; I literally don’t think about you at all.

Much like the Carlson stan, I can see I’ve awakened the Gallegos stan here and that’s fine. But I don’t think about you enough to even care to make personal attacks about you. But by all means, continue if that’s all you can contribute.

Continue thread...

Ocinea

For whatever reason it never felt like we were going to win that game.

SomethingAvid

Until the Contreras bomb

R.I.P Guillermo Zuñiga

Welp, sometimes good pitchers give up runs. On to the next.

xyzzy321

But also Kitt and JoJo haven't been very good lately.......

R.I.P Guillermo Zuñiga

Sure, but I’m going to trust their entire body of work over like 6 combined bad outings

SomethingAvid

It is a concern they could be overworked and not have their best stiff right now/anymore. The long season wears guys down.

But why take the reasonable approach when you can set your own hair on fire and scream about Mo and Co

christ0fer

Childish Bambino

We need to talk about Romero. He's been trending down for a while now.

Riley O'Fryin (let him cook)

He's being overused. Tonight we used Liberatore in his stead but he unfortunately had to be used eventually since it went to extras. With Pallante and Liberatore making starts it takes a lot of the lefty presence out of the bullpen (I know Pallante is a righty but he's essentially a fake lefty for matchup purposes). I also think they don't really trust King in late inning high leverage still. These are some of the many reasons we can't have Gio taking up a bullpen spot.

-1

Yo that's crazy how all the Haters literally ran to the shadows like scared little rats when it was tied only to come back when we lose at the end. What do people like that even get out of watching the games lol.

Probably because we knew would blow it like always.

That's crazy how you knew the whole time but hid your bitchass the second it looked like it wasn't an L. I just do not understand why you people are so fucking miserable.

At no point in that game did it feel like it wasn’t going to be a loss. Even when they went ahead in the 10th. This team sucks fucking ass in extras.

iamdavidburke

Didn’t deserve the win. Didn’t get the win.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

To be fair, this game should've ended in a tie cuz no one deserved to win lol

da_choppa

Bally Total Shitpost

No excuse to use Gio when he was used, and I would hope next time Fernandez gets the call if Helsley can't go on a night. Give Jojo and Kitt a rest

bfndbdbfnfbfbf

Play ball St. Louis!

Why do we go Jojo there vs Reynolds

Riley O'Fryin (let him cook)

He's worse vs lefties.

bfndbdbfnfbfbf

Play ball St. Louis!

Gotcha

-3

No idea why I continue to subjugate myself to this mediocre shit.

Dr_Talon

Think of it this way: we almost beat a winning MLB team.

-3

Please feel free to do so in solidarity

cesd3967

🍰

-5

I mean as good as he's been, it would be cool if Helsley's mental problems were fixed and they were allowed to use him in other innings besides the 9th and win games and whatnot

the_dayman623

Well that was a crushing loss

Dr_Talon

I just pretend that I’m a Pirates fan so that I can share some of their exhilaration.

Listen, they got the park, they got McCutchen… I can’t hate the Pirates. Stings less when we lose to them.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

It will sting less when we win tomorrow 😉

Well, that was quite a frustrating turn of events.

Human_Lettuce_5265

Where tf is heart attack helsley when you need him

Abraham442

I hate baseball. I just can’t watch anymore. I’ll see you guys tomorrow

Heart & Hustle

Cardinals would've won if Gio had never stepped foot on the field. This is known as the Gallegos Effect

Bloody_Corndog

-0.76 WAR

Heart & Hustle

In 12 innings pitched. (16 games)

That's honestly impressive...ly bad

STLOliver

I don’t know who to blame or whether or not I should be mad

Offense stranded 8, Gio inexplicably brought in, bullpen exhausted from month prior…

A true team effort. They didn’t really play well enough to win; tbf, neither did the Pirates.

kosmos6502795

The reasonable take. We both deserved to lose but the gio thing imo are the kinda unforced errors you can't make especially as a middling team. A manager's main goal should be 'do no harm'... And gio is harm every time this year. Hell I saw him get lit up in SPFD and he didn't look right. Thanks for the memories, you stink now though.

We are already scraping by as is, no more unforced errors. Then again Crawford was our DH today so maybe we are just overachieving.

Agreed re: do no harm. It was done to both the team and the player in that situation, which is a shame.

But yeah, Crawford DHing was just about as close to rolling over dead as you could get.

kosmos6502795

That's a great point, I have no malice towards him and I'm sure he's trying his best, but sometimes you gotta be saved from yourself by someone with more perspective. Pitchers are always gonna want to pitch, that competitiveness is why they got to the bigs in the first place.

Oh well, I'm just ranting now, we're still over 500 in a trash division and are probably a shoo in for a WC game. At least we have a few bright spots and it's looked even more bleak before. Hey, it could happen!

sdiss98

You can add Gibson to that list too. If he protects a 6-0 lead at all yesterday, our bullpen is rested.

Bullpen has been so overused, it’s not funny. I just hope Romero and Kitt can rebound with rest.

Another SP this off-season would have eliminated much of this exhaustion, but hey… cheaper and easier to just hope Matz can do it (he’s never healthy ever).

sdiss98

Kitt looked good in the 8th. 9th not so much. Still better than Jojo tho.

R.I.P Guillermo Zuñiga

These kind of losses happen 20 times a year. No reason to be mad imo, baseball really do be like that sometimes.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

I mean I feel like I'm absolutely allowed to be mad that Gio is even on this roster in the first place, let alone thrust into a 1 run game.

You're allowed to, no one will stop you. You're only going to be making yourself unhappy.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

Yes I'll be pissy for a lil bit because this is a W if Gio isn't on the roster. Completely preventable. Roycroft and Leahy actually deserve to be here. Gio does not. He is done.

-4

That is crazy projection but sure man, go off. Tell me more about this perfect future that you know exactly how the game would have played out? Like i'm all for getting Gio out of there but to just say "we win if Gio doesn't pitch" is wild.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

Did you actually need more evidence that Gio is washed before tonight? I thank him for his service, but it's over.

Again, dude, I've been low on Gio for the last 3 years. You're talking to the wrong guy if you're looking for someone to defend him. My point is the matter of fact projection is ridiculous.

Drunk as Jimmy Ballgame

Ok we probably win. Better?

-2

Bro you can feel whatever way you do about it, i'm not saying you can't or even shouldn't. But I also think you're only creating your own suffering by imagining these what ifs, especially when you have a predetermined outcome. Like it's one thing to discuss what else Oli should have done, but IDK what anyone gets out of declaring Gio is the reason we lost, ya know?

Continue thread...

-6

Bullshit.

R.I.P Guillermo Zuñiga

The fewest blown saves by a team last year was 16. The median was 26. It really, truly does happen that often.

CardenalesFan

DFA Gio

Cky2chris

Al Hrabosky

Honestly I don't know what they expected of him after calling him back up, he got his ass handed to him during his rehab stint

MissInsomniac

Seriously, the man doesn't have it anymore at all