So far my CRPG experience includes Divinity:OS 2 and Baldurs Gate 3. I've played Baldurs Gate 3 to death since launch and I'm looking to venture out to other CRPGs. I'm really just looking for any opinions on Pathfinder: WoTR. The good, the bad anything you have to say about it, also as someone with my limited experience in this genre would it be difficult to get into? Thanks in advance everyone I'm hoping to get into a new CRPG during the next steam sale so all opinions or any other CRPG recommendations are welcome.
A big thing drawing me towards this game was that it does seem so much deeper than BG3, and the crusade mode sound pretty interesting to me, if you don't mind me asking what are the things you dislike about the crusade mode?
There are different aspects about Crusade mode. People usually dislikes the "Risk"-like aspect of it, in which you have to raise armies and fight in a mediocre minigame to beat enemies armies in the overworld map.
But, Crusade mode also includes the "management" aspect of it, in which you have to make decisions for the Crusade (in Wrath) or Barony (in Kingmaker), this is very immersive and a lot of fun IMO. You have to listen to your commonfolk and concede or deny their requests, decide what you'll do with bandits that have been caught stealing in your lands and this kind of stuff. It really makes you feel like a ruler.
I'll go against what the other guy is saying and say that, there isn't that much technical differences between Kingmaker and Wrath. It feels like playing 2 games built on the same "platform", like.. how Fallout New Vegas feels and plays like Fallout 3. It's the same interface, the same graphics, the same feel. The differences are in mechanics, most notably, Wrath of the Righteous has Mythic Paths which not only changes the story but also adds another "class progression" on top of your already existing class. And of course, the story is different.
But playing Wrath definitely won't make you not want to play Kingmaker. I think people are too bothered by stuff nowadays and end up exaggerating. Like, he's making it sound like going back to Kingmaker is like going back from Baldur's Gate 3 to 2. It's not, It's like going back to Yakuza Like a Dragon after playing Infinite Wealth, it's literally the same engine, the same graphics and overall same feel.
Most dislike Owlcat's "minigames" that they enjoy including in their otherwise traditional CRPGs. Many recommend decreasing the difficulty of said minigames down to the minimum difficulty (story) such that it doesn't distract from the rest of the game much (You can change the difficulty of individual elements of the game before you begin).
Also, it sounds like you haven't played Kingmaker yet. You should definitely play Kingmaker before Wotr. They are not connected story wise, but Kingmaker is an excellent way to train yourself to use the Pathfinder 1e system before jumping into the much more complicated WotR system that also includes the additional progression system, mythic paths.
The worst part about Owlcat games is there insistence on puzzle minigames (nenio's quest for example). I have no idea why they keep putting them in there. the engine is terrible for puzzles and they add literally nothing to the game.
I had just heard some bad things about kingmaker that kind of made me think about skipping it. Is it something you'd recommend though? And do you have anything you don't like about it?
I would honestly start with WotR. It's just better than KM on every level and the story, chars,etc are way more epic.
Agree, if you love WOTR, nothing stopping you from playing kingmaker
I'm gonna heavily disagree with the other commenter. Kingmaker is not required reading for Wrath of the Righteous. I'd advise Wrath first, and Kingmaker if you want more. Wrath has made massive systemic and quality of life improvements over Kingmaker in so many ways.
The opinion of Kingmaker first is very much a purist's perspective.
Kingmaker is a very janky game. Play it first only if you love the Pathfinder tabletop, or love Wrath so much that you're craving fresh content. If you have no ties to the source material, IMO it's an easy pass in favor of better cRPGs that are mired in less jank. I'd go so far as to advise playing just about any other post-revival cRPG before Kingmaker, personally.
Reviews are better for WotR as they refined their formula with the follow up game, but Kingmaker is still one of the best CRPGs ever made.
WotR is just better.
You'll be missing out however on a 150 hour super high quality CRPG experience if you skip Kingmaker, though. Once you play WotR, you won't want to go back to Kingmaker, so it's your one chance to play it before being spoiled by some of the quality of life features WotR possesses.
The thing that tends to drive the reviews down with Owlcat games is that they spent the first year or so of their lifespan as extremely buggy games. But after all this time Kingmaker is polished to a shine.
The other thing that tends to drive down review scores for Kingmaker is that it doesn't work like most RPGs. To do well, you focus on the Main Quests first, not last. You still have plenty of time to do everything eventually, but you have to prioritize the main quest. This rubbed a lot of people the wrong way, as the game does not warn you and people end up failing quests , but thankfully the community can provide that guidance for you!
But after all this time Kingmaker is polished to a shine.
That's just not true man, the game still has a lot of issues especially when you compare it to WOTR. It is far from "polished". Good, yes, but definitely not polished.
Owlcat lost the rights to updating Kingmaker. They didn't get a chance to polish it to they extent that they have for Wrath. Kingmaker is very much in a state much less finished than Wrath.
That was long after they were already finished updating and polishing the game to a shine. Yes, they can't update the game with new classes and subclasses, but the bugs are fixes and everything works great.
To be honest the concept of kingmaker did intrigue but the reviews steered me away, since it doesn't have the same quality of life improvements does the game feel clunky to play at all?
I know I’m in the minority but I actually preferred Kingmaker to WotR. WotR leans more into the grimdark side of pathfinder lore (as grimdark as Owlcat games tend to get, anyway) where Kingmaker feels more classic medieval fantasy.
Both games are great, and also Rogue Trader (another Owlcat game set in the Warhammer 40k universe rather than pathfinder) is worth a look. It’s sort of a weird vibe with the silliness of Owlcat and the grimdark setting of Warhammer, but it somehow works.
I was kind of thinking about Rogue Trader as well I've just never played anything 40k, how it that game?
It’s actually my first foray into the 40k universe. I was only vaguely familiar with the lore going in and it hasn’t really been a hinderance. If anything Owlcat does an amazing job at getting players familiarized both through the setting and exposition in game, and easy to access codex entries. The story is really interesting so far (I’m only just now in act 3) and the character customization is absurd lol. It definitely scratches the itch for character and party customization and it’s not based on 5e or Pathfinder systems so (at least for me) it’s novel.
I've started playing it to take a break from WotR and I'm having a lot of fun with it, though I am using some mods as well. I'd say it's worth checking out at some point.
Not if you aren't aware of what makes WotR a smoother experience.
The most "clunky" thing about the games is their turn based combat system, but any "clunkiness" present is essentially identical in both games as they both use pretty much the same turn based system (it was added into Kingmaker after the fact in their Enhanced Edition years after launch).
After all this time and all these patches, there is little difference in how they play on a fundamental level.
For what it’s worth I’m currently playing Kingmaker. I really enjoy it. It has some oddities for sure but the story is far more familiar and grounded. With WoTR I’ve heard it’s proper power fantasy, where you are almost godlike and battling some real out there enemies and situations.
Therefore, for my own personal preference I plan on the following order: 1. Kingmaker 2. Rogue Trader 3. WoTR.
I don’t know if that’s the best way but it’s what I’ll be doing.
I'll add my voice to those who prefer Kingmaker to WOTR. I thought the story was better, the companions more fun, and the quests were more enjoyable. It's not perfect of course, and I'd say the negatives (compared to WOTR) are:
The difficulty spikes without warning sometimes. For instance, there's a cave early on where the game kinda assumes you know about swarm mechanics, and if you don't then you'll have a bad time. Generally speaking when you have a swarm of something attack you (lots of tiny monsters acting like one) like a spider swarm, the only way to effectively kill it is to use AOE damage. Early on, that means torches and bombs. Or just run away and do that quest later when you've leveled up more. You'll see this a lot: a dungeon that's way too hard for your level when you first discover it. So save often, and don't be ashamed to run away to live another day.
WOTR has more quality of life features. Inventory management for instance is much smoother in WOTR.
The kingdom management mini game is clunky. The crusade one in WOTR is clunky too, but not to the extent of the one in Kingmaker. Feel free to automate it.
KM is aweome…until the end. The final sequence is such a laborious chore that I will never replay the game.
WOTR is a better game in literally ever metric. There is nothing wrong with skipping KM, a game that is quite good but still has a lot of issues that were never fully patched because owlcat lost the rights or something to work on it. WOTR is a fully polished, finished product, whereas kingmaker is still pretty rough and honestly borderline impossible to play without mods.
How similar is the game to the TTRPG?
If I have extensive experience with Pathfinder 1E, can I just jump in and have some grasp on the system?
Owlcat likes to experiment with features. Sadly, with experimentation comes failure. These side mechanics are kinda filler with 0 real meaning. They do offer some narrative but nothing worth note.
Some like these experimental features and some don't. Like I said, hit and miss
Jesus, only 150? It took me like 220 to beat it on Core going in blind
What mod do you use to get around the crusade??
Toybox, I just give myself extra soldiers
WoTR is a disgusting, bloated fucking mess of a game, and I absolutely love it.
It is the RPG equivalent of the excessive mega ultra fuck you burgers that have like 10 pounds of beef, a whole package of bacon, and like 20 slices of cheese on it, that needed its own custom ass 2 foot wide bun baked on order.
Right down to the feeling you get exactly halfway through when you start thinking, "I am, 100%, going to die before I see the end of this."
Oh that act IV feeling.
Yeah I start to loose the ability to handle build bloat at around level 14-15.
As someone who used to host a podcast that primarily focused on the mechanics of the Pathfinder 1e ttRPG, I found it amazing! I got to try out some builds I had always wanted to try but was never able to do because I was running the game. I kind of wished they had even more of the content from 1e.
I can completely understand people thinking it is daunting and hard... but I felt it rewarded that. Good story and game as well.
It's the best CRPG since Baldur's Gate II, imo. It does somewhat require being interested in character builds and the like to a degree that Baldur's Gate 3 doesn't, but it also has robust difficulty options that can help to mitigate that if it's less your cup of tea. Lower difficulties don't need pre-buffing much either, and the better you know the system the less you need it as you increase the difficulty, too
i enjoyed the fact that you could do the routine trash mobs real time and work the puzzle fights in turn-based.
i might have only finished it once due to having an adhd/altitis thing
I have a similar experience as yours besides I finished WoTR. It's a bit harder game than BG3 but with serious DnD builds. It helpt me understand more on DnD rules and play styles. The story is good and companions are fun. Definitely worth a try, and better to check some basic tips on youtube or webpages before playing the game.
Lots of fun, best character creation of any modern crpg imo. So many options to make cool unique and custom feeling builds. It requires a lot of prebuffing before fight do there is kinda a steep learning curve. The crusade mode kinda sucks and eats up time. If you like doing wacky broken sit with your builds you’ll love it. If you find having to learn game mechanics duaghting it will confuse the shit out of you and crush you under foot. It’s not hard to understand it’s just a lot up front.
I'm really just looking for any opinions on Pathfinder: WoTR
Here are 18,944 opinions: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1184370/Pathfinder_Wrath_of_the_Righteous__Enhanced_Edition/#app_reviews_hash
To add another, it's one of the best games ever created.
The best CRPG in the market, blows BG3 out of the water for me.
WOTR may very well be the best crpg ever made. I am not joking. I am not entirely sure if it is the best overall, but it has the most extensive character creation and development system ever made. World building, story and role playing opportunities are still very good but there are also some better examples regarding these aspects. Musics and soundtrack are in my opinion are some of the very best among rpg games. There are really memorable companions. Character interactions between companions are not on the Baldurs Gate level, but still ok. A negative aspect, especially if you come to this game after BG3, is lack of interaction with the world. One can miss the realistic physics of everything in BG3.
Overall it is one of the best crpgs ever, if not the best.
It's extremely complicated and daunting even for CRPG veterans and severely punishes misunderstanding how the systems work. There remain a large number of things that could be bugs, could be working as intended but not as described, or could just be a mystery to everyone and these jump around every patch, keeping people on their toes about how it all holds together.
That said, it's extremely replayable (multiple different mutually exclusive approaches to the story); insanely fun for theory and build-crafting; and has a huge amount of mods and DLCs to keep someone busy.
I personally don’t like it, as others are saying it’s really a game that emphasizes the stat management.
If you liked DO2 and BG3 you still might like WoTR, but also keep Disco Elysium and Planescape Torment as other options you might enjoy.
I heard Planescape Torment and Disco Elysium were more like narrative driven digital book games then actual CRPG's.
Absolutely do not throw DE and PT into the same realm as BG3. It's absolutely asinine to think that BG3 is on even half of a narrative level as either of those, especially when considering the emphasis of choice. Not to mention, not a single mechanic relates between any of them aside from rolling dice and being isometric. Wtf are you smoking
It is an utterly fantastic RPG. Simply the most complex and well-made RPG since Baldur's Gate 2 in my opinion. It excels at almost everything, immense build variety and challenging tactical combat, deep worldbuilding and compelling characters that go against the typical fantasy cliches, and beautiful graphics.
I have one major issue with the game and that's just the sheer length of the game and it's almost psychopathic combat focus. It took me 130 hours to finish my first playthrough and the game is like 90% combat, 10% story with little variation. It is exhausting and I think the game could've done better with more variety like Baldur's Gate 2. Literally every quest in the game funnels you into combat tunnels. The nature of the world means there isn't a ton of civilized areas to explore like BG2's Athkatla and Ust Natha.
It's companion quests are also really bare-bones. You basically go to a randomly generated map square, kill a few enemies and then the quest is over. It doesn't compare to some other RPG's in that aspect.
I'm being a bit more critical because I don't often see many other people make these points and it was something that bothered me to a degree. It's still absolutely worth playing, literally my favorite RPG since BG2 and in some ways it's definitely better.
It's one of my favorite crpgs of all time.
It is the best CRPG ever. It makes BG3 look like a baby game. Best ending of any CRPG (secret ending).
It does everything better than bg3 except for the learning curve. I'd suggest following a walkthrough until you get comfortable playing without one. You will be fine leveling base classes to max but your group composition matters a lot. You will want one tank that takes barely any physical damage for example. That can be a dex or str tank.
Kingmaker and WoTR are easily the best RPGs since Baldur's Gate 1 & 2. WoTR is an actual D&D experience, unlike the easy mode dating simulator that was BG3. It can be a rough game for folks that aren't used to the Pathfinder ruleset though, as the game expect you to have some knowledge of the ruleset. I often shake my head at the folks that tell you how you have to do all this pre-buffing in the Pathfinder games. Guess it's because I've played D&D since the late 70s, but I never made it a habit of pre-buffing at all. That's just cheezy easy mode to me. I play those games like I do table top, and unless my rogue has scouted an area undetected there's no pre-buffing anything going on in my games.
FWIW, I agree with you.. if I have to prebuff it's usually after a reload and means either I messed up or the difficulty is too high.
It’s complex to the point of being bloated. The character work is simply incredibly but the mechanics of the game work against it pretty much the entire way through.
Id recommend it but prepare to immerse yourself in this game completely. This isn’t a casual turn it on occasionally it demands your attention and understanding.
What about the mechanics work against the game?
The game knows it's given you a lot of tools that could potentially make your characters broken, and as such requires you to constantly be using most of them just to keep up. Most characters will have between three and ten buffs that you will need to have up prior to every encounter, and your casters will need to keep a pretty substantial variety of tools in their back pocket.
As an example, there's a dungeon that becomes available towards the end of Act III (level 11-ish) called Blackwater. Most of the enemies in it - on normal difficulty - have ACs in the upper 40s to lower 50s, come in oversized packs, and heal if they haven't received lightning damage in the last turn. There are obviously ways to deal with this, but it's still way more challenging than any other CRPG would be at this level.
It's my 3rd favorite CRPG after BG2 and BG3. Story, writing, companions are fantastic. Class builds and theorycrafting are a ton of fun. Tons of great RP options and replay all around. Combat wise, it's strategically solid but tactically shallow. If you've set your party up well (namely, buffs but also synergy) most battles kind of play themselves. That might be your biggest pain point given your CRPG experience. Owlcat is bad at encounter design (arguably what they are worst at), while it's a strength of Larian's.
Finally...crusade mode is a bit fun until chapter 3. After that, you should use a mod to bypass the slog that is crusades.
Are the encounters so bad that they'd be noticeable? Also what issues do you have with crusade mode? Just curious because from the little I've seen it seems interesting but I guess I could understand if it just gets tedious.
Nah, encounters are just uninspired. They aren't good, but they don't generally make the game worse. To the game's credit, the easier battles move quickly.
Crusade mode, on the other hand, the battles are awful. Extremely repetitive with compelling tactical depth or even creativity. It's practically just a bunch of randomly assigned unit stats without any real thought.
My personal favorite CRPG but the big thing it is missing is full voice acting like DOS2 and BG3. Larian's production value and voice acting everything is almost entirely unmatched in the CRPG space. If you don't mind reading, wished BG3 was more in-depth, thought "Man I wish I could keep playing so my character would get more epic", etc. then WotR will be for you. It's a huge game and a power fantasy, it can be extremely difficult if you want it to be as well.
100% what is stopping me from enjoying Pathfinder is playing DOS2 and BG3 first. Larian's production is soooo good that everything else feels bad. Also, I feel like owlcat games should have more narration and less reading.
I prefer the reading. No cutscenes either, just let me play dammit!
It's a very good game, but I wouldn't praise is as the best thing ever, like some others. The game does have flaws, some pretty significant for me. Large unfun sections (Act 4), loading screens, poor balance and counterintuitive design choices in builds (like naked dude with monk dip having better armor class than full plate knight). Or why are there so many buffs to cast manually, when they could just be passives? The fights are repititve, you often fight the same demons over and over. Things like the battleground having 0 effect on fights or the world just being a non-interactive static image - it looks pretty oudated, when you compare it to BG3.
But on the other hand the game does have huge build variety, maybe the largest we've ever seen in CRPGs that lets you play pretty much any fantasy archetype you can think of. Tells a long interesting companions, dialogues, story, that takes our heroes from level 1 to the truly epic levels of godlike powers. There are mythic powers, that both elevate our builds and add fun flavour on the dialogues and story. There's a pretty large fun minigame, similar to Heroes of Might and Magic.
There are lot of build variety when you are on easy, at core, most are just traps/useless. They are not balanced at all.
Pre-buffing is tedious busywork, feels cheesy. And this game has a lot of it.
F5 and F9 is your friend, some enemy scaling is BS.
Story has actual routes, there is noticeable variation of events. Very cool.
Environmental graphics is good.
The game is very very long, as long as BG1 and BG2/TOB trilogy combined. You will get your money's worth. This game is always on sale too.
WOTR has the deepest mechanical gameplay I have seen in a CRPG, well-written characters, and a solid plot.
It is not at the level in either characterization or overall production value as BG3. Nothing in the CRPG space is, so get used to that if you want to continue hanging around with us, lol.
Mechanically the game can be intimidating, but as long as you dont get too prideful about turning down the difficulty when it's getting to be too much for you, you should be fine. You dont strictly speaking need to know all the mechanics.
I strongly recommend playing the game in turn-based mode, especially if you are going to try a higher difficulty. If you find the gameplay it too slow, or too easy, turning up the difficulty and/or switching to real-time mode will both address those problems.
Do not feel you need to know what all the class archetypes do, just pick one that sounds cool. There's a bazillion of them, and they're generally not as important as the class selection itself. If you finished BG3 you should be familiar with the Warrior/Rogue/Wizard/Cleric paradigm and be able to figure everything out just fine.
I wanted to at least give Crusade mode a fair shake, and found it brought very little to the game overall. I love Heroes of Might and Magic style dudes-on-a-grid combat, but this is a very very stripped down version of that, and is totally skippable if you're not into it.
Tell us what you enjoyed about those games. Good recommendations depend on that.
From those games I enjoyed the branching story paths, the character interactions with companions, multiple replays to try different classes and choices, and the experience of exploring the world.
The two Pathfinder games are great for people who like experimenting with builds. WotR also has a lot of replayability and is very long. If you have your sights on it already it might be the right choice.
I think the character interactions with companions are not great there in the those games, but some people really like them.
Aside from WotR I would also recommend Pillars of Eternity 1 and 2 (in that order).
How does Pillars of Eternity compare to pathfinder and the games I've already played.
The biggest difference is that PoE 1+2, and the two Pathfinder games are all primarily designed as real-time-with-pause rather than turn-based, though you can play PoE 2 and WotR in turn-based mode.
There's a lot more text to read in those games compared with in D:OS2 or BG3. Except for PoE 2 they don't have fully voiced dialogues. No cinematic character interactions in these games.
Romance is not a thing in PoE 1, but it's possible in PoE 2. Nowhere near BG3 level of involved romance in any of these games.
WotR is probably the longest CRPG, longer than BG3. D:OS2 is also considered a long game. The PoE games are shorter than all of them.
The Pathfinder games and PoE 1 have a daily spell slot system sort of similar to BG3. In PoE 2 it's per encounter rather than per day.
You can do a lot of varied enchantments and upgrades on your weapons and armour in PoE which means you don't have to change gear that often, though it's possible if you do want to.
In the Pathfinder games some builds are not viable if you don't lower the difficulty. The system is really for tabletop so for instance not all classes have enough appropriate gear implemented in the game.
The Pathfinder system is a lot more complicated than D:OS2 or BG3. The PoE system is kind of in the middle.
The world-building is great in PoE and pretty good in WotR, but in PoE you're not really eased into it. Rather you have to pick up somewhat dry texts in the game and read them. Some people really like this, some people don't.
Like you I did love BG3 and played through it a few times and was immediately inspired to get PoE 1 & PoE 2 along with both Pathfinder games.
Playing through PoE 1 now and my god do I really love this game and can’t recommend it enough. Do note that it is a fair bit of reading but I’m in the minority (I think) where I don’t mind this at all and sometimes prefer it to VA.
I am really looking forward to the PF games as well though because the character building possibilities are just amazing.
I love it but it's a steep learning curve. You absolutely could learn it but it will take some time and effort.
If you play Pathfinder prepare to have a love/hate relationship with it. It's super deep as far as the ability to create a character and min/max it. Probably the most in depth character creation I've seen.
The voice acting is only partially done. To the point where I personally wish they would have not done voice acting at all. It drops out mid conversation or only some choices are voice acted. It's highly immersion breaking. The game itself can be pretty buggy depending on if you use mods or what part of the content cycle you are in.
The quests aren't your normal fetch quests. Most of the mini games and especially the way they did traps will become incredibly annoying after a while.
All that said I have just under 800 hours played and it is one of my favorite RPGs.
pretty good
great for people who love making a character. in my opinion theres TOO many options . for character traits
Do you enjoy this kind of gameplay?
I loved Wrath. Super high replay value with all the different mythic paths. I'm a touch biased because I've been dungeon mastering the pathfinder 1 system for a long time, but regardless it's still my favourite RPG of the modern era.
I have played many CRPGs, even the not-crpg BG'3', and I liked WotR a lot, and most certainlyore than the modern RPGs we have been getting. People shill a lot for Bg'3' (not meaning this particular sub, y'all know which one I mean), but it feels like a typical modern RPG. Breadth before depth. I personally never cared for ridiculous amount of comedy, mediocre writing or most of all turn based combat.
What I do appreciate, is good writing, well treated companions ( no trashy ending to their storylines), interested and well written plot (BG'3' did not have good plot) and customization up the wazzoo. Real time with pause was just a cherry on top for me.
The only thing I would complain about is the fact that modding the game is pretty complicated, as evident by the mods released for it.
Oh yes and it uses pf1e, an actual fun ruleset to play and build characters with. It does require optimisation, but tbh, I prefer more options than little to nothing.
Personal Note: yeah, I may sound like a hater against BG'3', probably am but tbh, the shilling for this game just turned me off and it just turned into hate over time. The game isn't even that good for a crpg. Who cares about options when the writing is at best mid and not much depth. I miss the time when CRPGs were for the story not the graphic fidelity, something Larian doesn't understand
Personally I have a lot of mixed feelings on it. I love how ambitious it is and the writing is generally pretty great, but I absolutely hate the combat and how the game is balanced in a way where all that really matters is stat buffing and build optimization. The game has lots of character build "options", but unless you're using a build guide or spending hours number crunching your character build will exponentially less effective in combat the further you level up.
While I have seen people bring up the "Oh just lower the difficulty" defense, there's two problems with that in my opinion.
Firstly, because the source of the difficulty is coming from stat optimization which exponentially increases in importance with every level up, a difficulty level that's feels just right for you early on in the game is not going to feel right for you later on. I was able to do just fine on core difficulty up until level 5 which is where the stat optimization's increasing significance to combat started becoming really frustrating and annoying. But because core was just fine for me up until that point, I didn't lower the difficulty level for another 10-20 hours after I reached my frustration limit with the combat. And the same cycle of being satisfied for the difficulty for awhile before having to lower the difficulty again out of frustration happened two more times before eventually I just got sick and tired of the combat in general and set everything to the lowest it could be due to how frustrating the game kept getting. Having the ability to lower the difficulty at anytime is nice and all, but in a game like this you're going to have to waste time through multiple tedious encounters before realizing that the difficulty that was working for you earlier is now too high for you to enjoy the game.
Secondly, because stats play such a important role in this game, it really devalues build choices and combat tactics the further you get into the game. The realization that 95% of your level up choices are essentially trap choices that will cripple your character's combat effectiveness really kills a lot of the enjoyment in trying to experiment or try out wacky/interesting options as you know the only ones that are viable are the minmaxing ones. And the further I got into the game, especially past level 10, the more it felt nothing I or my opponents did in combat really mattered outside of who has the highest stats. Lowering the difficulty helps alleviate these issues somewhat, but the game is so fundamentally built around stat optimization and minmaxing that combat encounters just end up all feeling more and more the same the further you get into the game.
Wrath is great. It's predecessor Kingmaker is pretty good too if a bit less refined. Play Wrath first and Kingmaker if you really enjoy Wrath and want a new storyline. On the downside, they are both really complex and crunchy. You need to understand the systems and leveling options pretty well for higher difficulties and you have to plan your characters out well in advance. But the stories and gameplay, especially in turn-based mode are a lot of fun.
I'm really enjoying it!
HOWEVER...
I've not even played the main campaign yet as I've been sucked into the Treasure of the Midnight Isles DLC...the joy of creating a party around a theme and then playing through is too good to pass up!
Tbh, if owlcat created a game just with this premise I'd be more than happy!
But even just playing the DLC there are definite QOL improvements that I've noticed between wotr and kingmaker which means if you play wotr first the step backward may be too much (but I started on KM and really liked it)
I'm really enjoying it!
HOWEVER...
I've not even played the main campaign yet as I've been sucked into the Treasure of the Midnight Isles DLC...the joy of creating a party around a theme and then playing through is too good to pass up!
Tbh, if owlcat created a game just with this premise I'd be more than happy!
But even just playing the DLC there are definite QOL improvements that I've noticed between wotr and kingmaker which means if you play wotr first the step backward may be too much (but I started on KM and really liked it)
Its pretty good, i personally feel its not as immersive, they just throw a lot of random enemies at you, the world is less interactive compared to DOS and BG. Also the maps being sectioned off areas and not one big map. Its still an amazing game and defiantly worth a play through. Just temper your expectations because not a lot of games are like dos 2 and BG 3. Other good ones are pillar of eternity 1 and 2 and if you want a challenge Underrail.
I love. wotr. I'm not that into the min-maxing that higher difficulties require, and still have a blast playing it.
However, I just got off from 2 BG3 playthroughs, and there are things I miss from what a triple A game provides.
The biggest thing I miss is the interactivity with the surroundings during combat such as high ground advantage, blowing shit up, and opening and closing doors to funnel enemies. Obviously the animated cut scene style dialogue sequences are gone, and a fair amount of dialogue is not voiced. So you just need to temper expectations in budgetary regards.
Maybe the Pillars of Eternity games would be another good gateway series as they are much less complicated, but in my opinion also have good stories.
I jumped into WotR after playing BG3 extensively and there's a lot of good here but it's not perfect.
The good -
The build variety is pretty much unparalleled. Multi-classing aside BG3 has 12 classes with I think 46 possible subclasses. WotR has 20+ classes and well over 100 possible subclasses. WOTR also has 20 levels, allows for multi-classing, and has the mythic path system to inject even more build diversity.
The story feels pretty epic. It obviously doesn't have BG3s production value but it does have a relatively compelling story with some meaningful decisions.
The not so good -
While there is a lot of player choice, a lot of classes wind up feeling pretty similar with maybe one or two unique features being all that differentiates them. They are still different, but the gameplay loop can feel samey, even with different classes
The barrier for entry to the game is HIGH. Playing through BG3 will give you a foundation but there are a lot of additional things that it really helps to know. Be prepared for a few false starts or even having to follow build guides verbatim while you learn.
The game is pretty much designed to be played as real time with pause and not as turn-based. There is a turn based option but there's a lot of combat and your party has 6 members in it plus very likely pets. If you try to play as strictly turn based the game really drags. I have issues here because I find spells really a pain in the butt to cast in real time with pause territory.
That brings me to my main point, despite all the variety there is a seemingly optimal way to play through the game which is to have a melee heavy deathball comp, most characters riding pets, all characters being buffed to the moon with spells, and you just run the deathball into combat and win. That is 100% not the only way to do it but it honestly feels like the best strategy. It gets old after doing that for a few hrs and doing something else feels suboptimal.
Some of the companion writing is not good too. Don't get me wrong, some is fine but a lot of it is awful.....
Bloatware that doesn't respect your time and forces an unrelated genre onto you to waste more time.
BG3 is very shallow and extremely easy, even on its hardest difficulty, compared to even the "Core" rules in WOTR.
In my opinion, it is an extremely superior game with better narrative and tactical combat. There are also wayyyyyyyy more decisions to make that affect outcomes.
I initially thought BG3 would be a huge disappointment as a fan of the first two for over two decades, but I was very shocked that I was enjoying myself through the first act and halfway through the second. Then, even with an extremely unoptimized build and on the hardest difficulty, found myself *literally* falling asleep during end game fights in the third act.
WOTR isn't as horny, it's not as user-friendly, it's not as... Larian.
It's... not everyone's cup of tea. I appreciate BG3 for bringing CRPG's back into the limelight, but as someone who has been playing them for over 20 years, it felt very bland. Not bad or anything, just...
Just try it, and if you don't like it, refund it. Who cares.
You’ve been downvoted but what you’re saying is true. I basically slept through my Honor mode run in BG3 and never felt scared of failing since the game is so unbelievably easy. Pathfinder is far more in line with the classic CRPGS which is my forte. Larian took 0 risks on BG3 and didn’t even attempt to emulate what made the first games special. They just stuck to their lane and made another Divnity with D&D paint
Collapses under its own ambition. Way too much content so the second half suffers a lot.
I never got around to beating it, because the section in the demon world was so fucking convoluted for no reason. I think if you're looking for a story, quality characters, and interesting quests you need to look at pillars of eternity 1&2 before Pathfinder.
I picked up both Pathfinder games a few months ago after enjoying Rogue Trader, and to be honest I just am not able to get into them. I think it is partially that I don’t like Pathfinder in tabletop (it does all of the things I don’t like about dnd 3e and then piles onto those things with abandon) amd partially that I am happy to just play Rogue Trader again. The pathfinder mechanics had dulled my interest since they came out, but I like what Owlcat did with RT so I gave it a shot. And I am stalled mid act 1 in both games. I think a big part of it is that I am not connecting with either plot. Part of ot is that both games give you this infinite scope of characters to play, then quickly pit you on a plot path that might not suit the concept you came up with. It would be nice in games like this if part of character creation was a hint of what kind of arc you’re going to take will be. My default character style does not want to lead a kingdom or lead a crusade. I had to reroll in both games to make a character that fit the theme better once I saw what it was going to be.
Rogue Trader is on my radar as well. What all did you enjoy about that game, after reading some of the feedback here I'm leaning more towards it or maybe PoE.
First off, it’s a 40k rpg, which I hhave never had the option to play before so years of being 40k adjacent as a gamer comes to life. I wouldn’t say you couldn’t understand it if you don’t know the setting, but knowing the setting gives a lot of context. BG3 had that going for it too. I know Forgotten Realms, so it was neat to get the references. Pathfinder is the opposite of that for me. Paizo has their own setting and I know nothing about it. Even when I have played Pathfinder tabletop, we just set it in Faerun or a unique setting. I feel like I don’t have a handle on things they toss around casually in conversation.
The game is true turn based and gridded, which I love.
Builds are deep but not overwhelming, with enough guardrails to make any choice an improvement to something, but getting into the flow can yield impressively busted builds.
It’s a long game. I have done three playthroughs and am still over 100 hours on each. The story has some big twists, which I thought were fun and earned, but players are mixed on how they feel about them, the midgame one in particular.
No xp grinds. There are filler fights, but it’s not a game where you walk in a circle killing respawns to get enough xp to advance in the quest.
The map-based travel system that I don’t like in the pathfinders is somehow a draw when it is driving around a spaceship instead of abstracted walking. I also enjoy the spaceship combat minigame and wish there was more.
Kind of a personal plus, but If you are on PC you can import custom character art. I have made a second hobby out of using an assortment of ai and editting tools to make new portraits of the crew. The pathfinder games have the same thing, and I have enjoyed that aspect of them.
Comparing it to BG3, smaller zones, less depth to companions (but some of them are good, some of them are paper thin), much less visual quality (zoomed out old school conversations and somewhat primitive art style), but, more build depth, arguably better combat system (depending on how you feel about 5e), and some neat minigames (colonies, ship battles, a neat take on shops).
To be fair, it probably has less broad appeal than pathfinder, because high fantasy is just more accessible than grimdark, but if you dig 40k at all or are interested in learning it, it’s pretty good.
You'll end up playing them all eventually if you enjoy the CRPG genre.
Lack of voice acting/cinematics really made it difficult for me to enjoy Pathfinder and Rogue Trader after playing DOS2 and BG3.
For me, Larian's production is so good, that everything else feels like a downgrade. Just wish I played other CRPGs before BG3.
I guess it just depends on what you value in a game. For me personally the big budget and production of BG3 means nothing if the core gameplay isn’t that great or there’s not enough complex mechanics to keep me hooked. I’d rather just play a deep and complex RPG like Pathfinder because I value that more than production. Different strokes for different folks
Voice acting difference really changes my enjoyment of the game.
I’m much different lol I barely ever actually listen to much voice acting unless it’s forced. I’m a ridiculous book worm and can read at the speed of light so I much prefer to just read instead of waiting for the characters to take forever to get through the lines
I hated it. It starts out well but the kingdom stuff is annoying, and you have to do it because if you automate it, it fails constantly. And well, it's Pathfinder, so the combat is just buffing buffing buffing. I personally liked PoE 1 and 2 a lot more than Kingmaker. Also the ending part is absolutely terrible. It does have a good story and a lot of decisions, but to me the negatives far outweighed the positives, so much so that I'm afraid to try out WotR because I heard it doesn't get much better in these departments.
Owlcat's cRPGs are basically 'quantity over quality'
Heavily disagree with that. The systems they have in the game are anything but just quantity and not quality. To make that deep of an RPG work requires intense systems to be working in order which requires a standard of quality
Couldn't stand the tone and how childish most of the characters act
Most is probably overstating it. Aivu is the only one who's actively child-like, and she's only available on one specific mythic path. The rest of the characters are basically just people. Some of them a little one-dimensional, but I didnt feel that any of them were childish. I can see how one could view Ember in that light, but that really does a disservice to the conviction she's written with.
I actually liked Ember
Me too. Probably my favorite character in the game, particularly when you factor in some of the things that changed in PF2.
I haven't heard this take before, Would you be able to go into more detail because If the tone really is childish it may affect how I feel about it lol.
Nothing is childish in tone. The game actually gets very dark when you're dealing with demons and the Abyss.
Awful character writing
Lemme guess, you don't like one of the companions, let's say Nenio, so the entire game has awful character writing? Haven't seen that argument before
You haven't seen that argument because it's not what I said.
You gave zero evidence, just made a blanket statement. So why shouldn't I assume the argument I see everyone make who says the same thing?
Go away
It's very over the top, even compared to your standard medieval fantasy. You're not just a standard chosen one, but you're THE chosen one with a divine spark.
Hey guys! let's-a go on an adventurrrre. I'm the charming paladin do gooder. This here is the very not subtle rogue yeah...I'm kinda a thief. Ooooh this is the evil we should kill everyone character. Almost everyone has a quip, constant sarcasm
It's cause the writing in the Pathfinder games sucks. It's like some high schooler wrote it.
Bingo
The biggest issue for me is that the AI and encounter design are simply atrocious. Enemies are incredibly stupid and the game counteracts that with massive stat inflation and some weird and broken encounters.
If you're used to BG3 where enemies line up abilities to hit multiple parry members, will shove you off cliffs and generally be intelligent, you're going to be very disappointed.
Because of these limitations, you need to rely on overpowered builds that wouldn't be allowed at any PF1 table and the hilariously busted mythic paths to be effective.
The story, the companions, the f Overall feel, and the customization options are all plusses for me. I think the game is at its best in the first act where combat is tough but feels fair and the mythic paths haven't kicked in yet.
Because of these limitations, you need to rely on overpowered builds
No you don't. I play straight classes. None of that min-maxing dip a level here or there powergaming stuff and I steamrolled through WoTR just fine. I don't even game the game and prebuff every fight.
Cool. You get a neat little ribbon. On core or higher, some level of cheese is encouraged. All the mythics are built around gamebreaking stuff anyway.
The story is good
The gameplay is a piece of fuck covered in shit and vomit and serves as an anti advertisement for Pathfinder 1e. That is unless you like numbers jerking, then you gonna have a blast with it
It’s absolutely my favorite CRPG and it isn’t close. However, it appeals to a very specific type of player - one that enjoys the process of optimizing their character and understanding how the rules of the game work and interact. If you had thoughts like “I wish I had more choices when I level up in BG3” or “wow these feats are really boring” it might be the game for you.
Also the thing it does better than any other CRPG is the replayability. There are 9 different mythic paths that not only shape the mechanics of your character, but large sections of narrative as well. It’s the only CRPG that I’ve played through more than twice because I’ve wanted to see more of it and try different character concepts out, as well as to see how the narrative changes.
As for the negatives - the crusade mode can be tedious. I used mods to get around the tedium on my subsequent playthroughs, but it’s definitely there in vanilla. It’s also extremely long. Expect to spend over 100 hours - my first run was over 150 but I like to go slow and do everything. Finally, there are some big QoL issues that exist in the base game, most notably the tedium of prebuffing characters. I absolutely recommend getting a mod like Bubble Buffs to help manage that as it removes a TON of friction in being able to enjoy the game.