For example, when most people think of social anxiety, they are referring to people becoming really anxious at the thought of going to a social gathering, or throwing up at the idea of public speaking. Yet I experience none of these things, for me social anxiety is avoiding going to a crowded place not because I’m shy but because I just don’t have the energy reserves to be on high alert/hyperviglance when I am in a crowded or public space. When I am in a social situation I am anxious, but this anxiety stems from me anticipating a threat from those around me and not from the social situation itself. I am curious as to whether this is how anybody else experiences social anxiety? Maybe I shouldn’t even categorise this as social anxiety because I am a very confident individual but these symptoms only come about in social situations.
I feel that CPTSD related social anxiety differs massively from social anxiety in untraumatised individuals.
I think that a neurodivergent person would have social anxiety because they might not understand societal expectations and norms. I agree with you that their underlying fear is likely from trauma of past interactions but the anxiety could manifest differently than someone who isn’t neurodivergent. I say this speculatively without any neurodivergence of my own, that I know of.
Yes, different sources and causes, but in a weird way, trauma is basically just learned skills that no longer benefit us.
Avoiding, hiding, hypervigilance, these things used to help us survive.
We don't need to do it anymore, but our brain is convinced otherwise
I am afraid of going out because I think people will look at me funny, make fun of me. I feel so out of place. Don't know why this is the way it is. But sometimes I just don't want to go out because I avoid people.
I’m the same, fearing people will look at me strange. I realized recently that this fear might be tied into very early childhood experiences in social situations with my abusive parent.
I remember a few instances where I was very young and adults, both those I knew and didn’t, would sometimes look at me with an expression of shock and disgust when talking with my mom. I internalized this as I must be obviously defective in some way, but really, those adults were reacting to what my mom was saying in front of her child.
I know this is a slightly older comment but I wanted to say I got teary when I read your comment. I feel quite disheartened about the way other people's poor behaviour effected your self worth so much. I'm so sorry.
I've started unpacking in therapy how I have such a fear of being 'seen' mainly in groups, influenced by my dad yelling and verbally abusing me in public spaces .The worst time was in front of customers outside the restaurant I worked out while I was in uniform. This stuff goes way deeper than we realise.
People are dangerous. I don't let my guard down unless I'm completely alone and even then it takes me a while to let my guard down. Even being in my living space with my SO can be tough bc my brain has learned to always direct a slice of processing power to paying attention to any people in my environment for safety reasons.
A couple hours alone in the woods is always good for me. Nature has no expectations for me. I can be myself in nature. People are my entire issue.
I also see people as dangerous, I think everyone with CPTSD does and this is where a lot of our social anxiety stems from. Nature is amazing, so tranquil and peaceful. A dream of mine is too go off and live in an isolated cabin on a cliff overlooking a lake, just me and my dog.
Keep working towards your goal. My SO and I saved up and were able to move someplace to be closer to nature with lower population density. It has it's strengths and drawbacks, but the spot we found was too good to pass up.
but BEARS!
Yeah, I have bear mace for that, as a safety precaution. I've never actually seen a bear or moose out in the woods in my 43 years on earth (not that they haven't seen me). People don't like the woods, so they avoid it, it's great.
I was literally thinking that. Depending on where you are: bears, wolves, mountain lions... hell, apparently coyotes killed a woman and I was terrified of them for a while after that but that memory got lost in the trauma soup of Fall 2009 until the Internet oh so helpfully reminded me of it a few days ago.
Nowhere is safe.
People are dangerous. I don't let my guard down unless I'm completely alone and even then it takes me a while to let my guard down. Even being in my living space with my SO can be tough bc my brain has learned to always direct a slice of processing power to paying attention to any people in my environment for safety reasons.
A couple hours alone in the woods is always good for me. Nature has no expectations for me. I can be myself in nature. People are my entire issue.
Yes to all of this. People have bothered, came up to me, followed me in cars or on foot, or are touching me to get me to acknowledge them, etc. I would get preyed on/ harassed alot in public sexually and non sexually and its disturbing and threatens my safety
Same! It really sucks, though. I wish I could relax around people!
Yes! This! It’s as if the social setting is overwhelming, too crowded, too bright, too loud, etc. Grocery shopping at walmart is a guaranteed trigger. Similarly, social situations involving interaction (like parties) are also overwhelming because of the amount of energy it takes to “be normal”. It’s not at all the same as the “fear of embarrassment” or shyness type of social anxiety.
This is it for me, too. I don’t want to go out and socialize because it’s painful and exhausting. I’m not anxious about people and what they might do. I dread socializing because it requires too much hard work for me to simply pass as human, and whatever benefits I get from the experience are not enough to make up for the misery.
This is my problem as well, especially with going out at all. Like I know all the rules of looking okay and speaking well and passing off as a normal real human who doesn’t have terrible mental health issues and trauma. But it’s so hard. It feels exhausting to even start the process of going out, then being out and aware of everything, then socializing and forcing myself to be someone I’m not, then pushing past all my exhaustion and stress and overwhelm to figure out where to go/what to do/etc. Then go home and it feels like nothing was gained because I’m dissociating and depressive and exhausted. Not to mention people are condescending or judgemental or rude sometimes and that makes it even harder to do it again.
This sums it up pretty well for me.
this is why i tend to do grocery shopping later at night when there are less people in the store to make it less draining.
I love football season because I go shopping during games when the store is empty. 😂
yep... the stores are always empty when the packers are on
I’m pretty sure I’m autistic because of the whole thing where I’ve studied and observed people’s rules and habits and behaviours so I know how to act, and then I get exhausted having to do any of that so instead I stay home and avoid anything because I’ve been burnt out before for months/years and it sucks. I use computer analogies to describe myself because it’s easier and more relatable. Major food sensory issues too and I dissociate so until recently I never noticed I’m always overwhelmed at my surroundings either sensations or textures or whatever.
I was pretty sure I had a combo of CPTSD/Autism/ADHD (I already have an adhd diagnosis) after researching but my last therapist laughed at me for suggesting I was autistic and it really.. took the wind out of my sails.
I think My trauma related social anxiety is different from a lot of people, it seems to be strictly communicating with people related. Going to walmart or any store is actually fun for me. Some times I will go to walmart just to walk and not buy anything. This gives me no problem whatsoever, in fact I love it. It's only with people that I can't deal with. Impersonal things like paying the cashier is very easy for me because it's not personal and I know what's expected of me.
I recently switched therapists. My old one was trauma-informed, but more CBT style. We were working on me having trouble talking/socializing/making friends/residuals of selective mutism in childhood. She constantly encouraged me to take my dog to the dog park, to the point it was annoying. My problem is not my physical location on this earth! If I went to the dog park, I still wouldn't talk to anyone or make friends! There's something wrong in my head. I need my thoughts and feelings excavated. I need someone to sit with me in my head.
I have remnants of selective mutism too. I know what you mean with the dog park. People act as if going outside and "touching grass" will make everything better, but it often makes the flashbacks I'm in worse, especially when there's people around. I just won't talk to anyone and will want to get the hell out of there as fast as possible.
Man selective mutism is such an unknown pain.
Your old therapist sounds so much like mine (but still more informed). I'm also dead under SM, so it's ridiculous... and it's not the first therapist who has been that ignorant.
So now I'm realizing that it wasn't ever a matter of mere anxiety...
Also, I just thought - my therapist today pulled the "what's the worst that could happen" thing she loves doing. They don't expect you to have an actual answer for that. Usually, it's hard to even put it into words, anyway. I know the trick - it's straight out of any self-help book, like CBT always is. And it's not helpful.
omg, i hate therapists who continually suggest the same thing even when you're adamant that you don't think it will help.
Tell them the 12 step book is $24.95, they're $250/hr and you'd like some more value please
What I've learned with my own therapy is that the most important thing for me is to trust the therapist. Especially when she's suggesting something I feel strongly against, it's usually very interesting to see where my own resistance comes from and work that out.
More often than not, I see my reluctance comes from a place of fear and I understand that the therapist's suggestion is actually quite reasonable but I might not be strong enough yet to follow it through.
"What's the worst that could happen" is so 'psych 101' it's just condescending.
If someone wants a therapist who actually hears them and tailors the sessions to their needs in a useful and practical way they should feel free to find one
i get where you're coming from, but what i'm talking about is from personal experience where i was struggling with basic household tasks and my then therapist's only advice basically amounted to "just do it." or when i expressed my insecurities because there was a chance i might be set up with a friend of a friend that i found attractive, she told me "just don't date him then" since i was having anxiety.
Ah, sure. It sounds horrible if your therapist expects you to "just do it" without giving you any tools to handle these situations, or taking your feelings into consideration. And I mean, if your therapist is not compassionate about your situation and limitations, how could you trust him/her.
All the best in your journey.
Yeah. I have a very hard time leaving my apartment and it comes down to “being around people I feel like I can’t be myself, I’m always on guard, I’m exhausted and at least at home I’m safe.” So going out more helps a tiny bit but ultimately does nothing to fix it and results in me being tired anyway.
I had one social worker (who messed up in other ways) who kept insisting on exposure therapy for it and then I went out every day but still felt horrible and got depressive/numb/dissociative afterwards and didn’t improve whatsoever. If I go out and start making friends or being more social it all collapses at one point because I’m pushing too hard. I know there’s a balance needed but it’s much more delicate than “Just go outside every day!!!” it’s tied to trauma, overwhelm, habits, mental illness, everything.
I used to have a slew of 'social phobia' as a teenager and I believe it was mainly if not solely caused by moving A LOT as a only child with a single mom that was emotionally abusive and neglectful. I went to three different daycares and 5 different schools up until the age of 15. I never had the chance of building long lasting friendships and was ripped away and moved over and over again.
As a teenager I used to be afraid of talking in public but I believe my main problem was that I was kind of quirky and never trusted my friends (they were kind of shitty tbh) I never felt like a belonged for real and couldn't really tell if people liked me or how to behave in order to be liked. Since then I have learnt to surpress the social phobia but I have pretty bad attachment issues when it comes to friendships, I have 3 friends that I have knowned for over 10 years but otherwise I just swap friends like others changes underwear.
I usually take what I get friendship wise and I rarely form any close and lasting friendships. I never believe people like me for real or that they will be there for me and I always assume that I'm replaceable, on the other hand I'm also acting exactly like this (which I know is really toxic) Friendships just exhausts me, like for real.
I always found CBT so frustrating when it asked "and why would that upset me?". Trying to picture the situation or putting myself in it leads to dissociation. There are no words, just stunned paralysis. In actual situations I feel a combination of dissociation and the feeling like I may need to fight, kind of hostile.
I've never found a therapy that can get around this wordlessness. Its maddening.
Shit I think this is what happens to me as well?! So thank you so much for sharing! When my therapist asks about my childhood, and I "recount" something that was kind of bad, I just...dissociate from that moment. Like I talk about it, but there are no emotions. Just one fact after another, really. Sometimes all I have is one image or two and everything just gets hazy. Sometimes I do shut down and just don't want to speak. It really is maddening haha
I've actually been reading "The Body Keeps the Score", and it discussed this quite well. I don't remember exactly how it works, but trauma victims often tend to shut down like this when they're recounting their trauma. I'll see if I can find that bit and add it here~
Talking therapy helps some people but it's not for everyone and everything. A method not clicking or being frustrating isn't your fault, is just trying one tool on for size
Did you know that's selective mutism?
Sorry, I didn't communicate that well. I looked up selective mutism and at least from what I read quickly, that's not quite what I go through. I can talk to people when I have to. I tend to dissociate a lot or feel hostile / under attack, but I do talk. Act as normal as possible and try to not let what I am feeling show, is probably a good way to describe it.
Its after, when I try to mentally put myself back in that situation (like in CBT's imaginal exposure) to understand why I feel like I do, that I cannot get any description. The emotion refuses to tell me what it is or what its afraid of. Just pictures, body sensations and slight dissociation.
Is that still part of selective mutism, even though I can talk in the real life situation?
I don't know.
I have felt and said this for ages! I bristle when my SO suggests I have social anxiety. I’m technically a social butterfly because I learned to be to fit in. I’m really great at making others feel comfortable and to have fun, because I really wanted someone to do that for me as a kid so I learned how to do it for others. That doesn’t mean that social situations don’t trigger the shit out of me though. I’m more comfortable performing or speaking on stage than I am going to a grocery store. It doesn’t help that most of my friends were people who didn’t want to meet me where I was at. I kept telling them I had PTSD and needed their help and support. They kept telling me they would give me their support but only if I showed up in x y or z way. Not the meaningful ways (I was always there if there was a problem or crisis) but in those petty, “you don’t answer my texts” or “why aren’t you available to hang out at the drop of a hat?” Idk dude I have to build up to the concept of going outside or hanging out with new people. I feelvulnerable and no matter how confident I am, in the moment I’m convinced everyone hates me and that everything I’m saying sounds like something an evil person would say.
I tell people I’m shy to cover for how difficult it is for me to function in the way people socially expect, and they’re always like: no way! You??
Just goes to show you can never judge a book by its cover. Most people struggle to find compassion for my problems because I “seem like I have it all together.” Yeah, being raised by a narcissist will do that for you even when you don’t lol.
Most people struggle to find compassion for my problems because I “seem like I have it all together.” Yeah, being raised by a narcissist will do that for you even when you don’t lol.
Oof, direct hit
Yeah, I have the same. I couldn't figure out why I was still stressed after resolving social anxiety issues.
My social anxiety issues were feelings of needing to be perfect in social settings, wondering if people liked me, ruminating over what I had last said.
Once those were gone, I realized the remaining issue was more hupervigilence, not feeling I could let my guard down, always worrying about something going very wrong. The noise and loudness bothered me. I felt out of place, like I couldn't keep up.
And then there's CPTSD masking, which adds a whole other level of not feeling fully engaged or all there in a social setting. It feels like a big performance because you're not able to be yourself, or talk about what's been on your mind that day, or say straight up "you all scare me lol".
Can you elaborate on the CPTSD masking? It kind of rings true for me.
God I would love to be able to open up to someone trustworthy. I hope you find good people in your life. When you said "masking" something rang true for me which is I'm never myself around anybody. Maybe I'm quiet and don't say anything, or maybe I'm over-compensating or somewhere in between. But I'm never me.
It's not a fun place to be in. The thing I'm learning is people are willing to listen and support, it just takes time for the relationship to get there. I just dip my toes in from time to time and see how it goes. I hope you find a space for that too.
When I learnt that grounding techniques helped with the hypervigilance, I found I have sensory issues. I got headphones for this and found I also have intrusive thoughts 🤦 after finding a way around this there's dissociation 😵 and finally good old classic social anxiety with a dose of paranoid thinking for a crust. My point is, I get the impression there's more going on here than just social anxiety. It took a few therapists to help me figure out these were separate issues feeding into one another. It's like a game of whack-a-mole but keep at it and you can get there. This mostly sounds like Hypervigilance from your description and it's one of the hardest things to get through but I think it shows you haven't yet reached your window of tolerance and once there, practicing grounding I found extremely helpful and might help you too.
Hm, I definitely experienced all the stereotypical things that come with social anxiety, there was just hypervigilance on top of that. In my mind they are different things. I'm also no expert, can only talk about my own experience, but I considered myself and introvert, shy, not confident at all. And then when I had healed a lot, worked on trust issues, realized the world wasn't so scary, that's when I suddenly became waaay more confident and extraverted. But I can still feel some social anxiety every now and then, and I think that would've been there without trauma too.
I am glad that you have healed so much and now feel so much more confident in yourself! Keep up the good work you’re doing great.
I think for me at least, the biggest issue with them being treated interchangeably, is that anxiety normally assumes irrational fear and trauma comes from something that actually happened. Yeah, in some cases it's sorta both, where there's a real problem but it's way less of one than you think, but often even that much is hard to get acknowledged even. Some of my problem might be my brain overblowing things, but the problems themselves are real and I don't have tools to fix them.
Like basically my anxiety about social situations comes from me being very bad at actually reading them. I constantly have timing issues where I talk at the same time as someone else, or am just in general awkward in an annoying way. So when I was encouraged to ignore the warning bells in my head, I just ended up re-traumatizing myself as the same things that always have happen happened again. I at this point know what's going wrong, but it's not something I or any therapist I've gone to knows how to address, so there's no way to prevent it from continuing. But most people, including almost all of the (over a dozen) therapists I've seen still act like it's just in my head so I've been pretty much all on my own trying to sort things out.
Yeah, it's not the same, I realize. Of course, I spent many years on a crappy SA forum realizing I didn't fit in... but dealing with my current therapist makes it apparent. All of the usual CBT strategies and dumb shit doesn't work. Being in the situation doesn't really make it better, and it doesn't really make it easier the next time.
My freeze response is severe. Now I know it's an actual thing, not just a description. I don't have the hardware for real socialization, either. Being in any sort of situation takes a lot of energy and I'm planning for every possibility in order to stay safe.
I find that the traditional understanding of social anxiety revolves around looking foolish. I think this is kind of a problem with the system and the way it places labels on things. Rather, everything is more of a spectrum - so many things overlap, and the actual anxiety runs so much into the trauma. Maybe when I was younger, embarrassment was more of a pressing issue, but that requires a sort of awareness of being that I don't think I have anymore. It's not about judgment or getting embarrassed... it's about something else. And being in a situation, like being urged to go outside and do things, doesn't eliminate the response. As I keep trying to explain to them.
Oh wow I'm not the only person with the experience of going to forums and not relating to people there. I noped out when I saw people saying being spoiled as a child causes social anxiety. The assumption that everything is all in your head and irrational scares me.
Yes and I have no fear of looking foolish at all, my fear is of people victimising me in some way so I agree with everything you said. The current medical symptoms associated with social anxiety do not delve into the complexity of the disorder and completely ignore the fact that SA is usually accompanied by other trauma related psychological issues.
I genuinely don’t care at times what strangers think about me. I can do public speaking easily because I know if I fuck up no one will remember in a month anyway. Public spaces definitely overstimulate my nervous system. I don’t want to deal with constantly using calming techniques just to quiet my nervous system because it will jump into fight or flight if someone sneezes or something. It’s not worth the hassle to me.
I feel very similarly. I don't actually identify with the term social anxiety and don't like using it. But other people sometimes try to apply it to me.
Also the general approach to anxiety with out trauma insight can be destructive, where things are framed as irrational.
Yes I totally agree
I don’t fear people when I’m going through it, I fear peoples unpredictability. I feel like that’s the main difference.
I was thinking about that today and I came up with this hypothesis.
Untraumatized folks with social anxiety might be born with a higher than normal danger response to potential rejection. This is then reinforced through unhealthy society expectations and peer pressure. Those people might respond well to CBT and exposure therapy, because their brain can quickly realize that being rejected won't kill them.
Traumatized people like us are dealing with an entirely different beast. We have been chronically exposed to extremely dangerous situations (abuse/abandonment) before our brain could even understand them . That's why CBT feels like gaslighting and exposure therapy is retraumatizing. Our brain is trying its best to protect us from real danger that has manifested itself over and over again.
Yep! I can spend a couple of hours with friends and not be as tired/overwhelmed/just done after a 10 minute grocery shopping experience. I trust my friends. I know they likely won't do anything that would cause me harm, but grocery shopping? In America? People have died. The hypervigilance it takes to buy some kale is outrageous.
I had social anxiety prior to getting PTSD and I categorize those as totally different things. Having social anxiety is more like “what will people think, will I do such and such right, etc” having PTSD is more like “Watch your surroundings. Trust no one.” It is way more complex than that, but for me, that is a simple say to compare the 2 things in the ways I personally experience them.
On second thought… I think it depends on the trauma. I have chronic ptsd from what I went through growing up, which def led to social anxiety. However as an adult, I got ptsd from a very different kind of situation that I was very scared in and that causes the “watch your surroundings and trust no one” response when I’m out in public. Social anxiety was hard enough to begin with, now with new trauma it’s unbearable.
Yes!!
I've always been fairly socially anxious when it came to meeting new people or going to a party, I know that a lot of my anxiety was from fear of being judged or making an embarrassing first impression but I was perfectly confident with people I already knew and actually enjoyed preforming in front of crowds (in small bands or doing DJ sets etc..)
I had a lot of repressed trauma during childhood but went through an abusive relationship a few years ago and since then I'm a complete wreck. Anyway, the social fear I feel now is completely different from the anxiety I had before the relationship. For me its a feeling of complete overwhelm whenever I'm in public and feeling extremely vulnerable and unsafe. I feel so disconnected from reality/people that even my long term friends feel unfamiliar and I don't trust them as much as I should. I'm always on edge anticipating a trigger or worrying about dissociating or having a flashback in public - people have noticed and made comments before and it makes me feel like such an alien. I only feel safe alone in my bedroom as I can mostly control things around me and stop myself from being exposed to triggers.
I suppose rather than just fear of being judged or embarrassing myself (although that still has a role) its more a general mistrust and fear of other people that makes me want to isolate - and then a fear of having nowhere dark and quiet to hide if I have a flashback or dissociate in public.
I 100% relate with this
I experience social anxiety in both ways depending on several factors.
while i can be somewhat shy in new social situations with people i don't know i agree. being around so many people can be draining and overstimulating.
Growing up with an abusive narcissistic mother and an alcoholic father, I learned to make myself very ‘small’ in order to evade their radar. My social anxiety manifests itself as having to transgress my safety bubble. It’s exhausting as yes like you it’s constant hyper vigilance for my safety. To others I come off as reserved and ‘stuck up’. From what I’ve been told. I really shine when I’m with a few trusted people in a safe environment. I have adhd (likely trauma-induced according to my therapist) and taking my stimulants has helped me feel less overwhelmed, which is progress 🙂 I feel more grounded when I take my Adderall.
I have a similar background of trauma due to abusive/unavailable parents, social anxiety and recently diagnosed (at 35) adhd.. trying to find a therapist that would understand all, or what I should prioritize. would love to connect/hear more..
I have a lot of triggers related to being able to hear what's going on around me and a crowd makes this impossible. It's like my ears are so full of sound that I perceive it as not being able to hear at all. People talk to me and I have no way to process what they are saying. It takes absolute zen and stone cold will to appear placid to others while feeling absolute terror.
I feel like social anxiety is more of a spectrum, and I also think that it depends on what about the situation causes anxiety. If the social part isn't giving you anxiety, it sounds more like paranoia or an effect of having CPTSD/PTSD. You're anticipating an unknown and possibly non-existant threat, you arent anxious from having to be social. I'm not a professional by any means, but that is how I see it.
I’m very friendly and nice to service workers and the occasional person that doesn’t make me feel judged. Otherwise I just don’t talk and want to flee the entire time, it shows on my face and people typically think I’m stuck up. both of my parents had bpd and the physical aspects (beatings) were a cake walk compared to the mental torture/bullying I dealt with on constant basis at their hands and my brothers. Couple that with going to school with maybe 1 friend if I’m lucky (we moved once every 1-2 years) and also being bullied there 24/7. I feel like I’m pretty good at reading people, my partner thinks I’m just a bitter hater that always jumps to the worst case scenario. I’m not sure that the fact I’ve been right a majority of the time has helped or hindered my social anxiety.
I get these feelings, but I chalk it up to a variety of agoraphobia.
Crowds, loud restaurants (especially if there's a live band indoors), visiting faraway places, especially wide open spaces, it all fills me with dread.
I think this is a great way to describe this. I was trying to find a comparison the other day for this. I’m outgoing in passing but in crowded places I’m introverted and want to hurry up and gtfo.
i don't think social anxiety without trauma exist
It does. Anxiety can be genetic.
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Yeah, I see what you mean.
For example, I know some people who are anxious just being in a crowd. But I'm not. I don't mind being in a crowd, as long as I don't have to interact with anyone. The moment I know or realize I'll have to talk to people, I start getting anxious.
Though, luckily, it's not to the extent where I can't function at all. And it's only with strangers/new people. I guess it's sort of like a sense of threat, like I don't know if the person is safe or not. But if I'm around someone long enough, usually months, sometimes years, my brain calms down, seeing the person isn't a threat.
Dunno if it's the same with untraumatized people who have social anxiety, though.
I guess everyone is an individual and do different things for different reasons.
I guess I just don't understand how someone could have social anxiety who isn't traumatised in some way.
I think it's probably just different for different people, not one or the other.