I know the Bundesliga for 25 years now, and in terms of depth of quality at the top, it seems to me like the league is as good as it‘s ever been.

Discussion

Dortmund as 5th in the league has a solid shot at reaching the Champions League Final. 5th in the league while having the chance to reach a CL final hardly would’ve been thinkable some 10 years ago for the Bundesliga. Yes, we already had Wembley with Bayern and Dortmund in 2013, but back then, behind those two there was a huge gap / drop-off in quality in the league. That’s not the case anymore.

Now we have Leipzig, who seem to keep developing for a good decade now, despite having to sell all these players again and again. It seems like nowadays they routinely are a Champions League Knockout Stage kind of club. Almost always reaching at least the Last-16.

Then we have Leverkusen emerging these days, as you already may have heard somewhere.

Bayern is Bayern, Dortmund is a Top-12 club financially in Europe by now, which gives them a solid position for the future. Frankfurt is developing, especially in financial aspects (they are Top-20 Deloitte Football Money League now).

At the top, in terms of international competitions, it seems like the league is really competitive by now, more than in the past two decades. Would you agree? Or is it just a fluke?

Can the Bundesliga sustain this level for the future?

in Bundesligaby Beautiful_Ad55

85%

1mo

Makkaroni_100

127

1mo

While the top feels very stacked this season, the bottom and mid feels like completely lost. Everything behind Frankfurt went pretty chaotic. And I am still not sure how Frankfurt is still 6th.

megamet42

1mo

We dont know either

Flintriemen

1mo

It is really unbelievable that we could still reach the CL (if Dortmund wins it) with the worst season in many years. I‘ve watched 95% of the SGE matches, and most of the time I almost fell asleep.

Currywurst_Is_Life

1mo

The way we've played in the league, it's amazing that us winning the CL is within the realm of possibility.

Makkaroni_100

1mo

What's your opinion about the coach? I mean, your teams had decent players, but the results and playstyle are not so good. On the other hand, 6th isn't that bad.

Flintriemen

1mo

I gave him a long time without judging him because there were many new players in the squad while important players left the team.

But unfortunately I don‘t think he is the right man. There is no recognizable improvement and with the potential of the players, things should look differently by now. There are many decisions which I do not understand (one being Mario Götze as a CDM).

fom_alhaut

1mo

I mean honestly there‘s a big difference in the quality of our squad compared to the likes of Augsburg and Hoffenheim. Only Wolfsburg and Freiburg come close, imo

71648176362090001

1mo

Our expected points are the same as frankfurt... fml

666Blackbird

1mo

No way, a real rb leipzig fan

Makkaroni_100

1mo

No way!

Pascal-02

1mo

I think the other teams in europe seem to be the worst they ever been

SokkaHaikuBot

1mo

^Sokka-Haiku ^by ^Pascal-02:

I think the other

Teams in europe seem to be

The worst they ever been

^Remember ^that ^one ^time ^Sokka ^accidentally ^used ^an ^extra ^syllable ⁱⁿ ^that ^Haiku ^Battle ⁱⁿ ^Ba ^Sing ^Se? ^That ^was ^a ^Sokka ^Haiku ^and ^you ^just ^made ^one.

Pascal-02

1mo

Was ist das

joergen_

1mo

japanische Gedichtsform.

Pascal-02

1mo

Aber was hat diese Meldung ausgelöst

Any-Potential-8952

1mo

Dein Gedicht

Pascal-02

1mo

Ja aber warum wird das so angezeigt? Hat reddit mein Gedicht als Göthe klassifiziert oder was?

howdypardner23

1mo

Tatsächlich hat der Bot erkannt, dass du eben kein Haiku verfasst hast, weil du eine Silbe zu viel benutzt hast, genauso wie Sokka aus „Avatar, der Herr der Elemente“. Falls du die Serie noch nicht gesehen hast, solltest du das nachholen

Pascal-02

-5

1mo

😂 Tönt blöd aber ich habe noch nie Serien geschaut. Auch kein Titanic oder Harry Potter gar nix

joergen_

1mo

Denkste du bist jetzt was besonderes? Niemand hat gefragt

Continue thread...

Flofl_Ri

1mo

Jo.

xnachtmahrx

1mo

Ich bin dicht

Schnix54

1mo

I disagree with the whole premise. This is the worst the league has been in a while. We have one great and two good teams. The rest? I have huge question marks about both Leipzig and Dortmund while everyone below them is outride bad. That this Frankfurt will finish the season in 6th says it all.

pacoLL3

1mo

Dortmund and Leipzig beeing "question mark teams" and apprently not good, yet still playing well against Real (Lepzig) beating Atletico and now PSG (Dortmund) is literally proving his point.

And yes, the league is very divided between P1-5 and the rest but that is also because Stuttgart and Leverkusen are performing historically good. It's a big part of Bayern, Dortmund and Leipzig "looking" bad.

If these teams had their average season, Bayern would had dominanted the league and Dortmund would be fighting with Leipzig for second place. It would literally be buisness as usual.

Kakaphr4kt

1mo

attractive hateful agonizing work caption growth gray rotten sense nail

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

The-Berzerker

1mo

I mean, with a better referee Leipzig would‘ve knocked Real out of CL

According-Intern-143

-35

1mo

No.

Yumman111

1mo

Downvote all u want but this is as factual as anything will ever be.

Fit-Bug-1218

1mo

For objective evaluation, I always highly recommend looking at www.clubelo.com

Looking at this model, Bayern, Leverkusen, Leipzig and Dortmund all rank in the top 11 clubs of the world. The other seven are three English clubs (ManCity, Arsenal, Liverpool) two Spanish clubs (Real, Barca) and one club from France (PSG) and Italy (Inter) each. So while top 11 is of course an unusual cut-off, you could argue that Bundesliga has the most clubs in the top of the world.

But it’s true that the rest of the league is far off with Stuttgart at rank 26, Frankfurt at 55 and the others even below.

EndeGelaende

1mo

a system that ranks dortmund so far above this stuttgart side seems very flawed

outside of CL this season has been pretty bad for dortmund

Fit-Bug-1218

1mo

I think your valuation is very flawed if you try to except the CL since it doesn’t support your argument.

keinohrhamid23

1mo

I think the system is flawed, if a team with more competitions to play gets ranked higher than the team that dominated them two times.

EndeGelaende

1mo

whats the point in looking at lifetime elo-rankings if we're talking about how good the bundesliga is right now? does it matter that stuttgart sucked last season and played relegation if the point is talking about current performance?

Soft_Author2593

1mo

Dortmund just won the first leg of the champions league semis. Munich drew and Leverkusen is about to play el semis. The top is stacked! I agree with the second half of your comment though. Teams like Gladbach, Wolfsburg, hoffenheim or even Bremen, who have the potential to be up there didn’t make the cut this season. Even Freiburg under-performed for their recent standards

LOKl31

1mo

The top is only looking that good because it feels like anyone after 5th place is completely lost plus the bottom teams are exceptionally bad.

-TheWoobie-

1mo

I think the Bundesliga is in a really bad shape. Yes Leverkusen ist really good, but Bayern is the worst it ever was in the last 10 years. Dortmund and Leipzig are both underperforming. Dortmund looks good in Cl but in Bundesliga they play like shit because they can't play Underdog Football. Can Stuttgart hold their players ? Frankfurt is six place and nobody knows why. The whole Mid teams play boring and disappointing Football.

amfa

1mo

but Bayern is the worst it ever was in the last 10 years

Last season was worse.

after the 31st game day they had 65 points now they have 69.

Most of the seasons before where not that much better. What is different this season is that Bayer Leverkusen just outperforms everyone including Bayern.

Those are 5 points missing for Bayern which would give them 74 and would put the current season in the Top half of the last 10 years.

In my opinion the season of the Bayern is not as bad as some people claim it to be.

If Leverkusen had performed the same any year before in the last 10 seasons they would still be ahead. Only in 15/16 München had 81 at this day

pacoLL3

1mo

I watch the league for over 30 years and could possibly not disagree more. And it's genuinenly mindblowing to me a take like this can be popular.

It could not be more obvious, that Leverkusen and Stuttgart both have historically good seasons.

If these teams would have their average season, Bayern would had dominanted the league and Dortmund and Leipzig would be fighting for second place. It would literally be buisness as usual.

Bayern, Dortmund and Leipzig performing very good against teams like Real or PSG could also possibly not be more evidence that these teams are not nearly as bad as social media pretends they are. Again, Leverkusen and Stuttgart having crazy seasons, is really warping the perspective for many people it seems.

And yes, the league has a huge divide after P5, that is true, but it also has a huge divide, again, thanks to Leverkusen and Stuttgart beeing this good.

Beautiful_Ad55

1mo

Dortmund has 57 points in 31 games in the league. That’s not good by their standards, but in the past this usually would be enough to be in the Top-4. They also lost most games against the Top-4 this season.

So part of the problem for BVB is that their competition for Top-4 in the league this year is very strong.

Soft_Author2593

1mo

Well, I understand your bitterness. Hope you guys can hold second Bundesliga

According-Intern-143

1mo

Nah

Hexcited

1mo

few years ago 40 point meant you are staying in the league. Now it means you play international football

Makkaroni_100

-2

1mo

Not this bullshit again...

VoldeGrumpy23

1mo

I think the rest (especially the English teams) are underperforming). Man city vs real happened way too soon.

Juventus is playing like shit but they are totally missing. Inter choked against ateltico and Milan is trying to find itself for many years now. Napoli were a one hit wonder. Bvb and Bayern are playing like shit but here and then they make a good match.

Nobody knows why Frankfurt is sixth. Only leverkusen is showing signs of good football tbh.

Character-Dingo1236

-3

1mo

The league has always been this competitive. Leverkusen has been constantly playing well on an international lvl since 20+ years. Before Leipzig, there were Schalke, HSV, Bremen and Stutthart who also managed to get décent results internationally. Saying around 2012/13 there was a hard drop-off behind Bayern and Dortmund is also a lie, just look at the tables/games.

Also what the fuck is a deloitte money league? why do you even mention money? thats some weird argument yanks/premtards always make

Beautiful_Ad55

1mo

Schalke, HSV, Bremen or Stuttgart in the 2000’s weren’t on the level Leipzig and Dortmund are these days. One way to look at it is the Fünfjahreswertung. Without knowing it, I would guess Leipzig and Dortmund are both in the Top 12-15 there. This wasn’t the case for Bundesliga teams in the past (apart from Bayern), and if it was, it was because they made their points in UEFA-Cup. Also from 2002-2009, no Bundesliga team got past CL quarterfinals (and it was almost only Bayern who even reached quarters).

I would argue in the early 2000s, before the Kirch crash, was the last time Bundesliga was similar competitive to nowadays at the top. Leverkusen and Dortmund reached finals in CL and Uefa-Cup in 2002, Bayern won CL in 2001, etc.

Fun fact: the first year I ever watched football, there was a Champions League quarterfinal between Bayern and Kaiserslautern. Time flies.

Allyoucan3at

1mo

Schalke has consistently been in the top 20 of that ranking from 2010 until our eventual demise. so I'd argue we had an even better spell than Leipzig up until this very season. You can check the data Here

Beautiful_Ad55

1mo

Yeah, but Top-10 is a different beast than Top-20.

I just looked up how the UEFA-ranking looks right now:

Bayern is 1st
Leipzig is 8th
Dortmund is 10th
Leverkusen is 14th (can get to 11th if they win the Europa League)

3 German clubs in the Top-10 of that ranking is almost unheard of in Bundesliga history. I don’t know if you can somewhere look up historical rankings, but I‘m sure it didn’t look like that in past decades for Bundesliga. In the 2000s, Bayern likely was the only Bundesliga team in the Top-10 of UEFA-ranking, and they probably were closer to 10th than to 1st.

Then in the 2010‘s, Dortmund joined them as a perennial Top-10 team in the UEFA-ranking, and now we have a third team with Leipzig and soon possibly a 4th one with Leverkusen in the Top-10.

I mean, that’s a depth at the top of the rankings that’s unheard of in past decades for the Bundesliga.

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