User deleted post
Why do some people have dog/child energy and why does it bother me?!
Rant/Vent🤣 “adultier adult” is such a great way to put it. I think I also get annoyed with people like this because I am acutely aware of how taxing it can be to do all the little things that progress our plans. If two people are going anywhere or trying to accomplish even something simple like ordering coffees together, someone has to take the action steps first. Someone keeps track of which street we are walking on (in a city), decides which subway entrance to take, opens the doors, speaks to the restaurant hosts, etc. all small things and IMO, much easier to put brain on autopilot and let the other person initiate
Oh mood, "adultier adult" 😂 I think this turning off "adult function"/initiative taking mode is partly caused by the AuDHD for a lot of people because often AuDHD literally just feels like "I don't know what's going on" brain all the time. Like literally something I didn't count on happens and it's SO hard to like, change gears. So it's easier to let other people, who are and think and change gears faster, take the lead.
Except this gets SUPER annoying in AuDHD people who, as part of their own personality, just remain stuck in that fear of/inability to step up. Some people really just cannot get over the autism experience of always getting told they're not fast enough, or stupid, etc. which like, I get it. But it's maddening when they're in a safe life situation and they have help, reassurance, love, support etc. and they still don't step up because they can't stand not doing something right/without criticism the first time.
My mom does that a lot, and I admit I was as "clueless" when younger, but I got so sick of her just being so "slow" to get her bearings (that's the changing gears) every time something needed doing & someone had to step up that I learned to step up, instead. Did I fuck up a lot? Duh, especially at first, all people make mistakes. But there's a difference between AuDHD cluelessness/finding it hard to focus or change gears... and something that borders on weaponized incompetence. More like weaponized cluelessness
Oh yes, I recognise this, my mum does this, and recently an assistant also (who didn’t pass probation for that reason).
In both their cases, the fear of ever doing anything wrong was, in my view, caused by narcissistic need of always having to be right and perfect. Of an ego far too fragile to exist in this world as it is.
It seems a fine line at first glance, between those behaviours, but the distinction becomes quite clear from whether they turn on you with distortions and put downs, when told they did something wrong, no matter how sensitively, no matter how objectively wrong they were, and how important the thing was (i.e. not possible to let it slide without serious consequences).
There’s zero good natured sense of humour about disagreements, and no humility or willingness to learn, where the situation demands those characteristics in a specific set of circumstances.
Yeah, I think that's where a lot of the comparisons between autistic and narcissistic/egoistic behavior comes from. Because some people through their personality just never manage to learn how to cope with the criticism that is dumped on autistic behaviors - all they learn as a defense mechanism is those narcissistic looking behaviors of deflecting etc. and never being able to go over arguments to figure out where it went wrong.
(LOL this also instilled an even DEEPER fear of rejection & making mistakes in me than I'm probably already prone to due to RSD. Because with my mom and the way her autism is "programmed", there is just no way back from a mistake. Just suffer silent punishment and never talk about it again 🙃)
And again, I get it - I also have a huge fear of doing things wrong - but there's just no way to live a happy life with other people being happy in it like that.
Funny thing is I did also read an excerpt from a book once by an autistic woman who described how "manipulative" autistic people can be when they don't want to do things they're afraid to do. Which ties in to the whole weaponized incompetence idea. And she said that while it's clearly coming from a place of FEAR, of having fucked up so many times that you'll do anything to avoid further pain, but she also admitted that it IS shitty to constantly trick other people into taking care of your fear - rather than straight up asking these same people for help so you can safely learn to tackle your fear.
Yeees exactly re: adultier adult! Hahaha but I hate it because I find the other person super annoying when I am adultier, and hate the idea of being the annoying less adulty one around adultier people 😂
Another 100% relate. Hate being a ”burden” in any situation but in some it can get dangerous, like when I’m driving if people start micromanaging my driving then it will get worse because my head will wait for their instruction before making decisions. I have to tell people to stop or I’ll just go worse and worse
This! I never had the words! Thank you to everyone for explaining my feelings/ patterns to me!
Hey, I want you to know that what you are describing is actually for a LOT of people a symptom of childhood emotional neglect.
What I mean is -- the parents/caretakers of the person exhibiting this behavior did not teach them How To Be A Human Being, most often specifically How To Be An Adult.
This happens for a lot of reasons: Parents who are too tired, busy, distracted, to properly teach their children the basics of life, or parents who were never taught themselves and so never even realized they were failing due to cycles of neglect, or parents who were dealing with poverty and struggling to meet basic needs and so helpless to ever meet the complex emotional needs of their children, the reasons are seriously INFINITE.
Most people don't realize they have been failed so tremendously when they reach adulthood in this state.
This happens to men a lot, because mothers of boys often, for whatever reason in today's society, feel pressured to "take care of everything" and as a result never teach their boys how to do things that their future girlfriends and wives would be "expected" to do, just as they (the moms) are now and were while their sons were growing up.
This also happens to women, though, especially neurodivergent women (I'm an autistic woman myself -- a lot of autistic women are women with this kind of puppy energy. I call them "chameleon people" -- what they really are are chronic people pleasers. They are afraid they will get in trouble if they don't follow your lead, because they have been taught their own intuition is wrong, their own instincts are bad, their own sense of what they want and need is skewed due to lifetimes of bullying and abuse.)
Basic things are not taught to a lot of kids these days.
Be proud and thankful that you are not in the same situation, and try to approach this with EMPATHY and curiosity instead of judgement!!
A lot of people are very sensitive about this thing because this behavior stems from deep trauma.
Take care of yourself and those you care for, and be kind. ❤
Hi, I didn't need to be slapped in the face with the truth this morning.
(Though I already knew this was the case for myself)
If this rings true for you, just by acknowledging it honestly within yourself, you are ahead of 90% of people with this problem. You will be OK. Just keep learning and growing.
Just wanted to say I appreciate you and your responses so much. Thank you for being an empathetic and kind human being <3
Thank you for your response, I definitely agree as it applies to me and in a lot of the cases the people I experience the flipside with (obviously I connect with and am close with many people who tend to have similar experience)
I think I was ALWAYS the one in this situation until a certain age and must've tried to break out of the dynamic and become more independent. It is probably either because of this or because I am so attuned to for this reason that I pick up on the energy and get irritated!
I am trying to puzzle this out (hence the thread) because I am torn. Like a lot of people with neglectful backgrounds I've spent a lifetime tolerating everything and being super patient about things that bug me, but eventually it obviously leads to resentment. So I feel I have to find a way to communicate about this dynamic in a way that people can understand so both sides can deal with it better
In general, when we see things in other people that remind us of things within ourselves that we dislike, judge ourselves for, and/or have worked very hard to change about ourselves, we feel extra disgust. It's not really fair to the other person, but feelings and emotions don't really care about fairness, do they? Your feelings are not the problem -- but how you act in response to them IS your responsibility!
Part of becoming a well adjusted, emotionally mature adult is learning how to regulate our emotions and understand them so that when we are activated, for whatever reason, we are able to maintain an understanding of whether or not we should act in response to that activation.
When we feel irritation because someone is doing something that we have worked very hard to correct within ourselves, it's so tempting to be like, "Look, I've already had this struggle, here is what you need to learn, hurry up and be better already, it's so embarrassing to me to see you acting like this!"
But these are the hard pills that come along with it -
You don't know for sure that what you are seeing has the same root reason your similar behavior did. You don't know the history and trauma that led the other person to this moment. You don't know if they have been working on it or not, you don't know what struggles they have that you don't see, you don't know the complicating factors that will be so different from person to person, even IF the root issues are similar. In short: YOU DON'T KNOW EVERYTHING, even if it FEELS like you have seen this before.
Remember that part of how the human brain copes with how lonely and difficult the world is, is by blaming victims for their own misfortune. When we see someone acting badly or suffering, we feel terrible, we don't like to see other creatures and especially other humans in distress, as a baseline rule of normal. But because we can't help or save everyone, our brain needs a way to cope with the ongoing distress that comes along with seeing others in pain and struggling. The NUMBER ONE way our brains will do it is by doing something like this:
"Well, I am sure there is a good reason this happened to them. They must have done something to invite this. They must not be trying hard enough to get better. They must be learning the wrong things or doing the wrong stuff in their spare time. They must not be working hard enough. They must have been horrible to someone else, maybe this is karma. They MUST............................."
And we do this all so our brains can think, "...and so that is why this will never happen to me."
If victims are not somehow at fault for their bad outcomes, then our brains must face the knowledge that bad things can happen to us for no reason, randomly, through no fault of our own, and that is terrifying.
Our brains will do almost anything to give a bad outcome a logical reason, so that we can tell ourselves we could avoid it.
I highly recommend the book, "The Myth of Normal," by Gabor Mate -- it might help you understand more about how this works and why your brain does some of the things it does.
I think this hits on one of the key struggles for me of being AuDHD and coming from a very neglectful background!
My attenae for social stuff is mega sensitive. I also connect almost exclusively with other similar people. I have had very close friendships with other AuDHD people with comparable upbringings where both of us set the other off at the drop of a pin. It's so frustrating as we both know what's happening but the catalyst was often so minor or complex it was hard to communicate about and we were both so sensitive that communicating about it often just stoked the fire anyway 🙈
I am a bit older now and so are my friends so we are figuring out how to deal better, but it feels ridiculously complex compared to people who aren't even attuned to this in the first place 😅
I read that book by Mate and another by him and remember feeling super comforted by his compassionate approach (same with other similar books) but in everyday life I also had the problem where compassion made it very hard for me to assert needs, preferences, etc of my own, even when they were reasonable. That's still a struggle for me because I hate hurting sensitive people like myself, but I also know it's unfair on me to twist myself in knots being the people-pleaser when other people have sore spots. It's a trade off between being kind and fair, and not always taking on the discomfort yourself for everyone else's benefit
God, it would be nice to not always notice everything 🙃
Yes, I very much feel your struggle here myself. I sometimes feel that life is an endless push and pull between "I should push myself harder, this problem is one I must outgrow and overcome" and "I should be kinder to myself, I cannot change my nature and should focus on making the best of what I am."
There is no ultimate authority that can tell us definitively, when we have a problem, which approach to take, and that is so hard.
I am also a survivor of childhood neglect, and one thing it did to me when I was younger (19-24 or so) was make me really mean.
I didn't realize I was being mean, because I was paying forward abuse that I did not realize had been abusive.
As we grow older, have more experiences, and our brains finish up their most complex internal structures around age 26 or so, we start becoming more and more capable of taking that all important "step back" and observing our own behavior from a third party perspective: "Is this productive? Is it necessary? Is it kind?"
You and your friends will get there. Be honest with each other and never stop learning and growing.
Ugh this was beautifully put. I feel like it needs to be mandatory for everyone to read this in order to have more empathy. I never managed to put this sentiment into words adequately enough to people (I’m looking at you, judgemental parents) but you nailed it.
I think you're dead on with this being how a lot of men end up (not to totally exclude women, but I def see it a lot in men)... There's been a lot of talk about "weaponized incompetence" aka men who can fully hold down a corporate job but can't like, do a load of laundry. I see this in my own father and think it's more linked to him being undiagnosed autistic and not having the right supports to be encouraged to learn to do things independently. He and my mother married quite young, I think 23 or 24, so he basically never knew how to cook, clean, do anything around the house. Now my mom gets extremely frustrated and angry that he doesn't know anything, but she is also extremely particular about how everything gets done. So he'll try to wash the dishes or something but then she gets pissed because he won't wash them well enough or puts them in the wrong places. Is it "weaponized incompetence" or is it "he was parented by, and then married to, an emotionally neglectful person who was never patient with him learning to do shit" and honestly some days I don't know!! How can he be so smart but so dumb?! Gah it frustrates me too... Like I wish he would just step up and change but I also think as you age it becomes more and more difficult to do so and maybe he is trying... But it really feels as if he has absolutely no autonomy over the space he lives in... He like will work off of a folding table rather than buying a proper desk even though he has the money. It's insane to me that you can be an adult and still feel SO hesitant and freaked out about making any marginal improvement to your living space. But it's clear that he's also in kind of a perpetual trauma state about it due to how my mom is.
TLDR I'm sympathetic but also so frustrated lol
Hey, I totally feel you. I understand your struggle with this. I watched a similar dynamic unfold in my own home. My dad was 19 and both my biomom and future stepmom were 17 when biomom & dad found out she was pregnant with me. Stepmom was only 19 herself when she came into my life and took over (my biomom essentially abandoned me -- did not show up to the custody hearings, so my dad was awarded default 100% custody, and that was that.)
Having young emotionally immature parents who were both complete brain poisoned Gen Xers raised by Boomers who were either grossly neglectful or unimaginably cruel in turns (my lovely grandparents) .... yep!
Dad drunk himself stupid every night and internalized the toxic masculinity handbook.
Stepmom did coke in the living room while I maladaptive daydreamed in my room all day while dad was at work.
They are complete god damned disasters. I feel bad for them, but I feel worse for the child me that had to deal with them every day until I escaped at age 19.
Sympathy is fine. But don't let it make you a doormat. Seeing the struggles others have and where they come from can make you empathetic and kind, but it can also make you a self-sacrificing martyr paralyzed by the weight of knowing everyone is doing what they think is best.
You know what your dad could have done back then, should have done, and could do even right now today (if he is still around) to improve his situation. You probably even broadly know why he doesn't (it's hard. he's set in his ways. he's given up. blah blah blah. the reasons are infinite.) You know how they could have used the love they had once to become better people, and how they chose to let it turn them into resentful monsters, instead.
Be better than they were and break the cycle. Living well is the best revenge. Good luck to you.
I completely agree--I'm also a frequenter of /r/cptsd so I've processed the ways they've harmed me and accepted the fact that once I move out I'm either going very low contact or no contact with them. They've had enough chances to change / help themselves, I know not all the same resources were out there when they were growing up but they're out there NOW. I've been honest with them that I think I'm "ADHD and maybe autistic" (before I had decided 100% that I am both), they essentially dismissed it and said "it doesn't matter even if you are" "it's not an excuse" and bullshit like that. While not being able to look in the mirror and see how fucking difficult their lives have been because they refused to acknowledge any of the ways they were struggling. So yeah, I feel you, and I don't feel responsible for forgiving them or anything like that, because neither has made enough effort to actually change. It can be harder to think about my dad because I think there is some hope for him learning to be a better parent (though he hasn't made the effort yet) whereas for my mom... I'm afraid she is too narcissistic to recognize the ways she mistreated us.
This!!!
I do think re: the annoying-ness of people acting like kids/dogs in a dynamic also stems from the fact that a lot of (autistic folks, anyway) thrive doing parallel activities - not just parallel play like it's described in autistic children, but everything. We like doing thing 1 while other person thing 2 in the same room, and that's enough to make lots of us feel happy & social. So when someone clearly ISN'T doing something parallel but is following us around... It's annoying. Also because it's often enough of a hassle knowing what you yourself are doing, and then suddenly there's another person there (and they could Perceive and Judge you...)
Re: the example of someone following you around in the supermarket, I think also the stereotype of autistic people being super efficient/systematic is at play there - we're like dude, we have a grocery list, go find stuff instead of trying to negotiate about lentils!
And there's definitely the lead vs. follower thing going on when it comes to who takes the initiative, steps up etc. But that's the case in all households (that's also where the "nagging housewife" and "husband cant even cook water" stereotypes come from). But for AuDHD people I think what annoys us about it is definitely the combination of 1) everbody do their own thing I can only handle myself; 2) being perceived/judged; 3) be efficient; and...
4), missing the social cue that says it's fun to do things together. Like, we talk about how AuDHD folks often find that no one wants to listen to us infodumping, but I've soooo often heard my dad complain that my (autistic) mom doesn't want to do things together because she literally doesn't see the point in "standing next to you while you're cutting groceries and I can't help". Like, literally speaking she has a point, but on a social level, it does feel kinda rude (neurotypical or not) when someone doesn't even want to be in your space with you when you're doing stuff. Like so many autistic folks are happy to just sit in a room to observe & listen to other people even if they don't (or rarely) contribute - it's the same for neurotypical folks. They wanna do activities WITH us rather than parallel, and also their constantly going over stuff like "what should we get? what should we do?" is their way of showing interest & the wish to connect, in exactly the same way that infodumping is for us.
Yes exactly re: independence, doing stuff parallel
I feel like the ADHD side of me gets pissy because I feel trapped and while I might want to stand there for a bit while somebody chops carrots, I need the freedom to be able to leave whenever I want and not feel like the other person is puppy dog-eyeing me like 'where are you gooooing 🥺'.
I totally understand the impulse of these people which is why it especially bugs me as I can't outright be like, omg your behaviour sucks when I sometimes do the same 😅
Haha OP, exactly, seems to be a sign of our internal contradictions. We seem to engage in, but also cause, this behaviour, which then annoys us 🤯🤦🏻♀️😆
With the proviso that abusive/narcissistic types of behaviour, which can cause (but also be initially be expressed in the form of) the puppy dog, are very different.
Lmao I can tell you it DEFINITELY drove me mad when I first decided with my ADHD ass to do the "hover around while person chops carrots" thing (which was made worse because I SENSED that I would be rude if I left, I just hadn't figured out the exact Social Reasons in place yet). But when I finally figured out what was going on socially (which like... the Analysis of it all is so autistic) I was like, Oh duh! We're hanging out! But even though I know understand & apply the Rule of Hanging Out (which, my autism loves Rules), it still can be Maddening when I'm having a wacky day and none of my brain thinks I'm getting enough stimulation.
You know, how some days you have enough spoons to find "sit idle and listen" good enough stimulation, and other days you have to do something physically tiring otherwise you'll explode. Different moments different levels of energy I guess!
i probably dd this around adultier people years ago, for context i grew up in an abusive and controlling household
Ohh, interesting! I respectfully disagree with OP:
Your examples made me cringe. I have acted like this only after things have become awkward because the other person seems to be in a really shitty mood and keeps snapping at me, criticises every little thing I do, or gives unsolicited advice constantly.
Personally, it’s how I act after I’ve given up on the organic back and forth of friendly dialogue and cooperation.
“Unhappy with everything I do/decide? Ok, you make all the decisions, then.”
I don’t like unnecessary conflict, and where there’s mutual respect, there need not be any, particularly about petty shit. Even if you disagree about something important, you can respectfully agree to disagree.
Know the best part? I’m quite old now, but in the past, I myself often came across disrespectfully to others in disagreements and gave way too much unsolicited advice (which IS criticism) until it was pointed out to me repeatedly, and until I was at the receiving end of excessive amounts of this a few times. I honestly had not intended to make others feel like that, I thought I was being “to the point” in arguments, and “helpful” with my unsolicited advice 🫢
On the other side, it’s a very stressful zone to be in, when you feel everything you do or say could be shot down at any moment, so you “stop having” any preferences or initiative, just to avoid triggering some stupid argument or being insulted. I no longer tolerate being put in this fawn mode for more than an isolated, shitty mood by the other person.
One long term friendship bit the dust for this reason, after our second, week long holiday together. Told her three times that I felt disrespected, tense and increasingly angry around her, given her constant criticism and unsolicited advice. On holiday together, this reached 10 times a day or more, about the pettiest shit which didn’t affect, nor needed to have concerned, her at all. She continued, I spent the rest of that holiday fawning to breaking point (causing me a week of burnout afterwards), later stopped speaking to her.
And when someone else tiptoes around me now, I check whether I’ve come across as angry, overly critical, or impatient, and try to ensure that they know I respect their opinions and decisions.
This is getting very crunchy and deep and making me consider a LOT of things 😂 thank you for your response
Some stand-out thoughts:
Having been on both ends of this dynamic, definitely it can be elicited when somebody is critical etc. Buuut in some cases I remember feeling rejected/criticised because I am exceedingly sensitive to minor things and then springing into 'fawn' mode on steroids, obviously to try mitigate potential conflict. I presume this is what other people are also doing to me (often sensitive folks who pick up on minor tension e.g. we watch a film and one likes it, one doesn't)
I am still not sure how to deal with this because I spent a lifetime fawning to avoid conflict and now I need relationships where I can disagree with someone respectfully and not have them launch into fawn mode in defense. I KNOW even teeny tiny things can rankle people and in the past I tiptoed around to avoid this at all cost, the cost being that I was desperately trying to be controlled/patient constantly which is unsustainable. I didn't want to hurt people in those micro ways.
In one example (keys friend above) I did this so much when we were young that for years it was a classic codependent dynamic of me 'parenting' emotionally and practically and bending over backwards to do so while her demands (unconsciously on her part, I am sure) got greater. I look back and realise I was enabling the childlike tendencies by trying so hard to be careful, and honestly I have made the same mistake in other relationships, too.
I feel like it IS important to tolerate small perceived criticisms and not subsequently subsume your entire personality to avoid disapproval. I did/do this. I still feel like that behaviour is the undeveloped one and I am not sure if it's healthy to pander to it.
It goes without saying a) there's a huge line in terms of what counts as respectful criticism/disagreement and b) I feel like it's important to try learn to communicate about this dynamic.
If anybody has any more thoughts I am very open to hearing bc frankly this is very helpful!! I still am not sure how to proceed
OP, my response actually sounded pretty aggressive, a little ironic, given what I wrote! But you took it in really good humour, so thanks for that.
It's no surprise that we're hyper vigilant to subtle criticism when we go through life feeling like we keep doing things ever so slightly wrong.
Here's what has started to help me: consciously trying to mellow out a bit by watching how chill people operate. They're outwardly cool, calm and friendly, very diplomatic but have really good boundaries at the same time. Maximum setting is slight abruptness, and they don't care if someone is then annoyed, that's for the other person to deal with.
They are by no means naive, but seem to choose to trust that most people mean well, which prevents awkward dynamics. If someone tries to take advantage of their apparently mellow nature, they just distance themselves, subtly.
They don't pander to needy people, which is where we started with all this.
After reading this thread, I think I'll always make sure I didn't cause their anxiety inadvertently, and reassure them, but if they stay really timid after all that, they're putting stuff on me, that's true.
Equally, my fawning, whether defensive or directed at catering to someone else's excessive vulnerability (both kind of conflict avoidance), is for me to address and curb, as it's not really helping anyone. So I've actually come around to your thinking in your initial post, just with the reassurance first proviso, and with all the helpful nuance fleshed out in this thread. Great stuff :)
I sort of resent it being referred to as child energy, but enthusiastic dog energy? Sure. Thankfully my partner loves it and has developed it with me as well to a decent degree because mutual enthusiasm is fun and affirming. I avoid people who dislike this energy and select exclusively for partners who want to be together 100% of the time and be enmeshed in everything we do. I do not ever want to be alone because if I am not being perceived I don't feel like I exist and am liable to wander off and not come back. I need constant tacit affirmation and I give it back in spades. I am a First Mate to the core, I make everything work and do a ton of (acknowledged) background work to make the priorities of my partner happen frictionlessly. But the payment for that is petting my floofy German Shepherd ears.
One reason for it is that with the right audience I can keep both of us cheerful as much of the time as possible. I am a very blithe and upbeat person because I care about very little and don't have many of my own priorities.
I am quite competent, but it tends to take over when my partner's mood is intractable and I get irritated by this, so I will make the executive decision that we are going on a goddamn adventure whether you like it or not and we are going to enjoy it. Or if my partner is especially exhausted I will do the tasks required incredibly efficiently and then his job is to be the cheerful assistant to whom I dispense little tasks. I don't enjoy doing things efficiently, I like just cruising along smelling all the fire hydrants, but I'm quite capable of it when it's needed.
I can get things done with a frighteningly cutthroat directness and efficiency, but I prefer to keep that energy for when it's actually necessary or wanted because it's 0-100. I still need to be pointed at the right problem, and I will fix it with a smile so that it never becomes a source of worry or negative thought again. If not directed I will fix the wrong things.
The low self esteem, executive function challenges (decision making is hard) and trauma based self distrust can lead to habitual reassurance seeking and "falling back" when another supposedly more capable or confident person is around.
I found myself completely dissengaing at the checkout when I'm with someone else so I don't have to make eye contact, small talk etc. Working on it though because it is insidious and it is highly aggregating for the other person because you become a dependent which is by no means sexy.
Yeah, it's not a good look. I've done the "hold on to BF's sleeve/jacket" thing that you see in anime of manga while walking through stores before because I find big stores overwhelming and it was easier to just turn myself into a duckling. There's nothing wrong with finding the store overwhelming, but I could have waited in the car, placed a pickup order, or we could have split the list in half and done a divide and conquer. Constantly being somebody's social shield is exhausting and making someone else my stand-by shield isn't a sustainable solution.
Just want to say that the keys example made me understand exactly what you are talking about. My husband does this too with keys and so many small things like “what time is the party?” - I don’t know but we both have calendars on our phones with the same invite on them!! Makes me nuts. We both have equal access and ability to get the keys out or to check the calendar, why am I always assumed to be the one doing the work?
I’m married and mother of 2, so that’s pretty much my life all the time and I HATE THAT.
I know why : it’s like clutter in front of me and I’m impatient, so I want things to keep going and inertial people drive me crazy. But I can be that person too.
I'm gathering from how you describe them they're "fawns", Pete Walker wrote a book on complex ptsd (from childhood trauma). Basically (haha initially wrote that "gasically") grouped traumatized people by dominant trauma response, and narcissistically praised fawns, because they're like him, while dehumanizing the rest. He's a therapist so that makes it worse. But it might be a good book for them to check out.
Basically the main types are fight, flight, fawn, freeeze. So in the face of danger abuse, you may favor one or more responses. You can also flip between responses. Going with this categorization it seems Fawn types tend to people please, or ask for approval. Flight types tend to be seen as avoidant or very busy. Fight types tend to be considered confrontational or oppositional. And freeze types tend to be withdrawn, be escapist, like into books, video games, tv etc. Or maladaptive daydreaming. Can also shut down or collapse. I haven't read the book in a long time and have read other things, so I might be pulling these descriptions from multiple sources at this point, from memory, so who knows.
That kind of behavior you described irritates me because it's boundary crossing. They're putting their emotions/trauma response on you. They are trying to make you soothe them when that's their job. I've heard people who haven't been through abuse find it annoying, and their reasons may be different.
I had friends/family who were the family scapegoat and fawned. Just thankfully not all at the same time. I guess I worked out limiting my time with them and dealing with them on different days. I was also scapegoated but my response is more freeze fight. So I get where they're coming from, but I also need to set a boundary around the behavior.
Other than it being boundary crossing, it also triggers me. Someone reacting in hypervigilance sets off mine because now I think there's danger nearby. And their trigger is anger, or people being upset, so that can create a feedback loop (because one of my dominant responses is fight, so I might not be fighty, but I may have an edge to me that other people would overlook, but they are tuned into).
If they're self aware, I can just tell them, and then we both realize we're both triggered and laugh about it. If they're not aware it becomes more challenging, because I have to get them to stop asking me things. And they'll get more and more frantic and I'll get more and more frustrated.
And so normally in that case I'll just try to separate myself from them, give them a task that will take them a while and leave me alone. If I'm at the grocery store, I'll be like, take this half of the list we'll meet up afterwards outside the store. Or call this person and get this information, etc. And I don't know how I do it, but somehow I make them feel empowered so they don't bother me with questions or checking in and we'll meet up afterwards. If I don't have anything, I'll just make it clear that I'm overwhelmed and need to be left alone. Most people know that I'm introverted, so they will get that and leave me alone.
I read somewhere that people that react to things like that in a similar way to you is because they’ve been made to feel like they can can only ever depend on themselves at some point and seeing people trying to depend on others feels annoying as you subconsciously expect everyone else to be able to do the same.
So basically you were that person at some point, but somewhere down the line someone let you down or rejected you consistently to the point you felt like you can never depend on anyone else
Yes I think that is definitely true!!!
I remember years ago, a friend (full disclosure, same friend with the keys😂) with a cold complaining to me how hard it is to have a cold now that her mom isn't there to take care of her. I remember thinking 'ugh, grow up - some of us never had that to start with!'. I mean, on the one hand I think it's important that adults learn to deal with such things alone; on the other, the experience of having to become self-sufficient too young undoubtedly made me more irked by the complaint
Yeah, I had a similar experience with an old roommate kinda. She heavily relied on the people around her and it made me super uncomfy and I couldn’t figure out why. I think my tendency to isolate and freak out/pull away when I’m struggling made her uncomfy too and probably triggered her own flavour of RSD. Until I read about that and it clicked. We were just stuck in a vicious cycle of being triggered by eachothers coping mechanisms and we ended up parting on bad terms. It really did a number on me and I’ve been questioning who I am as a person since. It’s a pretty intense thing to recover from when you’re unaware of what the underlying issue is at the time.
I have strong child energy but I also have an adult mode. My voice even changes.
obviously people are a wide range of things but essentially people are either dog or cat people. cats and dogs have diametrically opposed personalities and totally different energies. we are a dog type and will marry a cat type one day. we get on better with cat people and yeah dog people can be annoying with all their doggie enthusiasm. if dog people annoy you then hang out with cat people, they are not difficult to spot.
- micheala.
This post makes me laugh :) and i 100% agree with you. It is super annoying when people do that!
You described it REALLY well 😄😆
Your description of the ick was so relatable and I didn't know how to put that into words!
probably just an anxious energy and the constant need for reassurance/guidance/stimulation is tiring and an energy drain
Sometimes that looking for approval thing is coming from a background of that person having been abused or emotionally neglected throughout their childhood. The hyper-awareness is very telling, and something that even therapy hasn't shifted for me. I can't turn it off.
I have C-PTSD as well as AuDHD. Just something to ponder, look at what these people's childhoods were like...
Idk, I see what you are saying, but it also rubs me the wrong way the way you phrased things as 'dog/child energy'... it feels a little belittling and infantilizing, as someone who has been on BOTH sides of this. I see that you are trying to have a good faith discussion about it and I'm not trying to tone police. But I feel like this is is maybe common (if maladaptive) neurodivergent behavior. I don't think it is ok to compare ND people to children or dogs, it feels dehumanizing. I am wondering if as a community we can have a better phrasing for this?
My experience - when I've done it, it usually comes out of social confusion and I think it is a form of masking. (I heard the term 'silent masking' recently, where instead of concealing your ND traits by trying to act neurotypical you just don't say or do anything for fear of doing something 'wrong'.) In situations where it is not explicitly stated who is supposed to pay, drive, unlock the door, order first, decide a time to hang out, etc, and especially if the other person tends to be an initiative taker (and I don't want to go against the Social Pattern that has developed), and even moreso if I'm already overstimulated, sometimes I just default to letting them make the move or set the tone. Because I don't want to come across as too me-me-me or forceful, or because I just don't have the spoons to come up with a suggestion. I hate doing it, but I don't think it makes me a dog or a child, it makes me a neurodivergent adult who needs more processing time or direct communication or trust in others not to judge me as socially awkward. Ya know?
On the other hand, I have definitely been super frustrated by others doing this. I had one friend that was also audhd and had super-supportive-nigh-helicoptery parents. She was used to relying on them for rides, scheduling, decisions, emotional support, etc etc etc, while I had been on my own for years with little support network to speak of. When we hung out I did get frustrated and have to put my foot down occasionally, that I wasn't going to manage her timing or emotions in the same way her parents did... But it was also really good to learn from her what it was like to have people to rely on, and to be more open about our respective and similar needs. It was a humbling process but I think it led to us both developing a lot more autonomy and confidence.
I think communication is key in working through stuff like this... for example when I'm getting in 'passive mode' a lot of the time I realize I just need some space to process what to do and say. And communicating that to others (rather than trying to cover it up with silence) allows me to advocate for myself and decreases their frustration at waiting for me to do or say something. & sometimes if I'm in 'wait for permission mode' all I need is for someone to say 'you know you are welcome to do xyz' or for me to find space to ask 'hey can I get this?' and get out of the guesswork 'whose job is it' mentality. I am NOT saying it is your job to snap anyone out of that ofc. But just generally stating what can be effective, and where the hangups can be.
I think this kind of behavior has a lot of causes and not just the ones I've stated (social confusion, fear of doing the wrong thing, history of relying on others frequently) but yeah I do think it is worth being talked about. I feel like a lot of NDs tend to rub each other the wrong way a lot because there's so much diversity among us, not just in basic traits but also in the supports or lack therof that we have experienced and the ways we have learned to cope (well or not) with the difficulties. I feel like we need more understanding of how trauma manifests in nerodiverse people tbh.
100% relate, especially since I too switch the roles quite often. It’s like my brain switches off when I’m with an ”adultier adult”, and goes on standby mode. But when they are on standby I switch on because my brain sees ”hey noones steering this shit”. It’s very frustrating because it happens automatically with some people….