Why are we building roundabouts at intersections that were just updated??
They recently added bike lanes to Moore and changed the yield light to a stop for pedestrian safety. But they did close the intersection for almost all of last summer because they did the resurfacing and bike lane addition on swift. So there’s been a lot of annoying construction for very minimal benefit imho.
A roundabout is perfect in theory, but will never work
I lived around the block from that intersection for years and even had friends renting a home visible in the aerial shot provided. NO ONE knew how to navigate it in 2006 when I moved to Ann Arbor. We joked that everyone just made up what to do at the flashing caution and stop lights. Fortunately at the time the area was far less developed, especially the Argo Pond and livery, and the hospital was only huge and not gargantuan.
Then they built the cascades/expanded the livery. In came an often out-of-town crowd, this brought pedestrians and a party atmosphere...the EtOH and legal THC made it even worse. People routinely went the wrong way on Longshore. Argo parking filled up and cars were redirected further confusing an congesting the side roads. The installation of a four-way stop and crosswalk signal at Broadway for the overflow tuber parking threw off the traffic flow creating a stop that would back up along longshore into the intersection. Lastly, the bike lane/path further complicated a mix of pedestrians and automobiles. Just wait for the new restaurants/bar/coffee to take off and the multiunit housing developments to fill up.
The new signage makes a little bit more sense, but there is no way in hell the drunken tuber crowd or others from out of town unfamiliar with roundabouts are going to manage this. Just like Gedds, during hospital shift changes it'll sometimes be a raceway if there is no stop sign. I fear for the pedestrians as people attempt to create a positive flow through the roundabout in their rush home. I'm personally a huge fan of roundabouts and Carmel, IN lol. Yet I still find myself screaming at someone nearly every time I drive down Geddes or Zebb obstructing flow. Americans for the most part outside of the Ann Arbor bubble just don't understand how they function. It's truly a shame.
I don't miss the stinky spillway, pond, and canoe portage. Still walk/run my dog around the loop. But the city missed on traffic flow when they built up the Argo and this isn't the answer in my opinion.
Counterpoint: maybe the experts that studied it know what they're doing
I never said I was a civil engineer, just feel having actually lived there for over 15 years that there is a human element that isn't being considered.
The characteristics of this intersection vary on time of day and season of year.
Ever try driving up Moore when it snows? can't imagine what happens when there is a roundabout on top. The busses routinely are towed up that hill or forced to back down with a police escort. They need the momentum. Hell my Honda needed the momentum
The two-way on Moore does make "moore" sense to me. But again, roundabouts aren't all that common and you're about to put one in a high traffic area full of people unfamiliar with the function.
Civil engineers are only experts in building roads.
This would be the city planner's job, which Ann Arbor has one of the best. If only they'd ever listen to him and leave the "constituents"(rich people) out of the planning we'd be a lot better off.
The problem is too many hands get into the process and they only do like half of what the planner suggests....which is almost worse than doing nothing at all.
No I agree with the other guy after living around that light for 5 years. It was totally functional if you actually paid attention to the signage. They also tweaked the yield to a stop so pedestrian safety is a lot better now with basically no change in speed of traffic. The city could be spending money on more important issues rather than “fixing” a perfectly functional relatively low traffic residential intersection. Pushing all the traffic from Moore to Barton while they tear up this road is also going to make Plymouth a mess.
Roundabouts exist everywhere and work perfectly fine. This is probably the weirdest example of Ann Arbor's snobbery I've ever seen. What else do you think people can't comprehend outside of this town? Crosswalks? Bike lanes? Parking garages?
I wish a constant stream of drunken tubers rippin blunts and blasting music to follow you for all your days. Just please don't hit them with your car.
Roundabouts are common throughout SE Michigan. I don’t think many tubers are coming from further away than that.
I have been bewildered and frustrated in my rare forays to that part of town. But I think "will never work" presupposes some objective measure of what constitutes a working vs. non-working intersection. You can expect problems, and even fatal accidents, at any intersection given enough time.
The goal of most Ann Arbor roundabouts seems to be to reduce serious injuries and fatalities, and reduce certain traffic delays. Those goals can be achieved with imperfect intersections. The roundabout at State & Ellsworth has one of the highest accident rates in the city, but they tend to be minor, and by some measures is seen as successful. Or at the very least "working".
If you think the planned roundabout will cause increased collisions, or increased serious injuries and fatalities, compared to he current layout, you may be right, and time will tell. But predicting it simply won't work is too vague to even test.
Oh this is great! That intersection is an absolute nightmare as-is!
What's wrong with that intersection? It was decent back when the right turn was a flashing yellow. No problems at all. Making that north bound right turn a stop sign was pure stupidity.
Nobody treats it as a stop sign, it’s still basically a yield sign to almost all drivers going north.
I disagree. That’s probably just old habit for some locals. People 100% are stopping more than they used to especially for pedestrians.
It was almost surely for pedestrian visibility. I liked the yield as it let me get home faster but the stop isn’t that bad. Most non locals were stopping at the yield anyway. Now it’s just the opposite problem.
Walking or biking that intersection is terrifying, as cars will often run the stop signs with little visibility. The flashing yellow was even worse because people were encouraged to rip around the corner.
How are pedestrians going to safely cross a roundabout there? A lot of people carrying rafts and tubes cross there frequently. The hill means poor visibility too. A regular stoplight would be better, dedicated crosswalk with a walk sign. My experience with being a pedestrian in a roundabout is pretty bad, cars don't want to stop.
Hopefully they include buttons to activate signal lights for pedestrians—I’ve always felt much safer crossing with those flashing. Statistically, roundabouts are safer for pedestrians because they force drivers to slow down more, but I agree that too many drivers don’t pay attention for pedestrians when there isn’t a physical stoplight making them stop.
The road is 25mph there, it's already slow. A stop sign means pedestrians get to take a turn just like cars, also cars use turn signals generally at stop signs so easier to predict their movement. A roundabout is yield signs, so cars roll thru checking for cars and often ignoring pedestrians. Plus cars don't tend to use turn signals in roundabouts so as a it's much harder to predict where the car is going and if you can cross safely.
drivers regularly speed through there at 30-35 or more.
Yeah this seems infinitely worse than what we have now. Honestly if they just trimmed the trees around the corners a bit and put some flashing slow lights in on longshore going towards swift the whole things is as good as solved.
No pedestrian should be anywhere near a roundabout. Drivers can barely navigate it as is. Throw in bicycles and pedestrians and guess who is going to suffer. This whole pedestrian/bicycle/cars can coexist thought process needs to go. It isn’t sensible and in reality is why a lot of people get hurt. Roads are for cars. Sidewalk are for pedestrians, and a bike lane (singular not those insane double wides) for bikes.
Now. For my comment for haters to hate.
Bicycles should have mandatory classes and graduated licenses. Because too many want special this and special that, and yet they are the worst for following ANY kind of rule - whether it be stopping at stop signs/lights, walking bikes on sidewalks, putting a freaking LIGHT on the BACK and FRONT of your (yes) vehicle. And wearing helmets, and a safety vest. I mean please, seat belts are mandatory in cars, so really some consideration to a VERY vulnerable rider.
Don’t get me started on motorcycle helmets. I ride. And yes - helmet, jacket, pants and boots.
I had to get an endorsement to ride. So should anyone else that uses roadways and bike lanes.
Bike riders going SB on Pontiac Trail really get the shaft at the roundabout. There's a connection to the sidewalk from the bike lane but no connection back to a street. 🧐
They took out one of the lanes of traffic and put a bike lane
I don't think I'm being clear enough. See the blue sections where bikes can move between the road and the sidewalk? That's what I'm talking about.
I don’t mind roundabouts, but when people STOP at a YIELD when they could go through without stopping safely and easily, I want to slam my head into concrete
I agree as someone who lived there for 5 years, but it’s not a yield anymore! It’s a stop now.
They just need to change the stop sign onto Pontiac trail back to a yield sign. Done, save millions of dollars.....
Transplants ruined the town.
Ann Arbor loves spending money on redundancy. Arborview sidewalk debacle last summer. First street bike lanes in 2020 - had to move a fire hydrant. Williams bike lanes, well, because apparently a million couldn’t build a non crumbling lane. Not to mention all the additions to all bike lanes.
Ann Arbor loves to spend spend spend and tax tax tax
Don’t know why you’re getting downvoted. It’s facts
The truth hurt them.
Don't forget the unusual crosswalk configurations that were done about 2 years ago on Arborview. Only to be hated and railed against by users. City said they'll replace them with traditional configuration, not sure if it's been done yet.
Yeh. Because they don’t ASK the residents what THEY want. And they had the audacity to say well we can’t be innovative if we don’t try.
And WASTED all that money.
Wish I had money to piss away like that.
I get the critique of arborview that was frustrating. But how is moving a fire hydrant for a bike lane an example of redundancy? Also the Williams lane wasn't crumbling they just decided to add a curb which was done relatively quickly and made it more permanent.
The bike lanes have been greatly improved not sure why you are complaining about them. (I assume because you don't bike in them). Also I would say most of the redundancy is mostly in top coating some roads with asphalt that clearly don't need it when there are others in dire need of repair.
No. They had to move the fire hydrant AFTER they constructed the bike lane. Like. They BUILT that street incorrectly, then had to tear it up and redo.
I knew workers on the job. They were pissed (as it took time away from other street projects) and said the city didn’t listen to them.
As for the bike lanes themselves, maybe, JUST MAYBE, had the city done a little more research into multiuse paths and design they would work and be far better than the half ass job as is the norm for any project they do. As it is, the freaking PT buses can’t make the turns without going into oncoming traffic, fire trucks are others cannot make the turns. Meanwhile you cannot deny the increase in ped vs vehicle incidents - at this point I no longer bike in the city and when I have to cross, I intentionally jaywalk so at least drivers see me. Almost got nailed more than once in a crosswalk - once it most likely would have laid me in a grave - because the driver went over the double yellow, AROUND the car that stopped at the stop sign, and blew past the car, almost hit me, and went blatantly thru the stop sign. All at high speed. (Oh great going city council on outlawing traffic stops - this guy and plenty others, know not a damn thing will happen to them).
I didn't know about the fire hydrant. That is interesting.
The problem the city has is that there are too many parties to please, so they end up with a compromise that nobody really likes. I feel safer with the new two-way protected cycletracks, but yeah I know that if we did it the Dutch way with a protected singe bike lane on both sides it would have been better. The reason they chose not to do it that way was to preserve street parking for cars on the other side of the street.
But yeah I take the bus and they do have trouble with turning onto Williams both southbound from Fifth Ave and from northbound on State. There are painted white boxes and x's before the crosswalks in these intersections but more than 50% of the time cars do not stop at the appropriate line and are used to stopping at the crosswalk. So there is not enough room for the bus to turn, which backs up traffic. It happens almost every time.
I agree the designs could have been better. But I think their intentions are in the right place. I would also like to point out that there is just a general disregard for safety/traffic laws with some drivers. The experience you are describing sounds like nothing the city could do about it. Technically cops should still be pulling over cars for not obeying stop signs. But yeah I also don't agree with how much cops have relaxed on traffic enforcement.
Cops didn’t relax. The prosecutor and city tied their hands. I know plenty that just up and retired because law enforcement is non existent right now in town.
Yeah it is interesting. I am of the opinion we don't actually need them for that much traffic enforcement. We have the technology to enforce traffic rules more effectively without them. If we actually embraced things like speed governors inside of cars and speed/red light cameras. But those have even worse public favor than police officers which is really saying something.
Red light cameras are oftentimes run by corrupt companies that generate revenue for cities (Chicago would be a huge offender here)
I’ve often thought that auto manufacturers should install speed governors - top out @85 - many companies install these in fleet vehicles locking them at 65. I say 85 because we’ve all been in situations where you actually have to get out of a passing situation and well shit happens.
Personally. I am a fan of flock cameras at trouble spots. Not into Big Brother, but given how town is these days, seems to be a best solution for a lot of the shenanigans.
And. Being a little more sensible about road closures - it certainly doesn’t help when people don’t have ways to move about in an orderly manner and of course it causes friction. Rats in a maze will cannibalize each other if you close off too many tunnels.
Sure lets not let private companies operate them for profit. But they are common in all developed countries and they work. They also generate revenue from people breaking the law. We could put it towards fixing the roads.
I am talking about the newer speed governors (they are called Intelligent Speed Assistance (ISA) system) where the car knows the speed limit of the road and doesn't let you go above that speed or sometimes only 5 miles above the speed limit. In Europe, it is now in every new car, but there is a way to opt out of it if you want. But it would be nice if it was just the default in all new cars in the US.
Edit: My bad it doesn't actually stop the car from accelerating it is just like a seat belt warning sound that warns you that you are speeding.
I have that set in my car. Beeps when I’m over 70 (that way when I’m at 75 to pass or something it’s just a reminder to back off). But beating the door to 60, I generally don’t have the same rush to get anywhere fast anymore. LOL.
I have friends that have cars that ‘read’ speed signs. Unfortunately it appears that they also read anything with a number and sometimes makes drastic decelerations on the highway. They have pretty much turned it all off. We need to perfect technology before rolling it out because there’s been some sketchy AF automotive shit happening. I’m happy with the alarm but no controllers that make decisions without my input.
Flock cameras do a lot to prevent crime as well as problem intersections. But people who can afford that Ticket in the Mail will continue with their shit habits. We need to have actual laws apply and have actual consequences brought back. This hug a thug is not working. Neither is throw everyone in jail. Problem is - the middle takes a f ton of work and actual caring - of which is in short supply right now.
if not spending money on improving the city, what would you like them to spend money on?
Spend money actually improving the city. Not playing tinker toys with weird ass configurations that cause problems and then they redo them to the standard that 99% understand.
Example - Like the ‘pedestrian approaching a cross walk and everyone has to stop and read said pedestrians mind of whether or not they are crossing the road (gee which way are they going), or waiting for a friend, or waiting for a bus’ local ordinance that NO ONE knew about that doesn’t live within city limits.
The Arborview debacle was a loss of 100’s of thousands of taxpayer money that the city laughed and said well we just wanted to try something. Everyone who lived on that street HATED it. And the city didn’t ask anyone who, know, actually LIVES on that street, if they wanted the odd freaky sidewalk configuration.
So then it all had to be redone. At taxpayers expense.
Don’t be obtuse.
I think you should run for city counsel! you have the passion and the perspective! But truth is, someone has to be elected....they do their best.
Yeh. Certain people can’t handle reality and well, therefore wouldn’t get elected.
City is in shambles. Sad. It sure was fun and had a lot of community spirit.
I’m sure Taylor will have his minions scrub the city so it looks good for GMA’s broadcast coming up. Round up the bums, set a perimeter, and keep the homeless at bay for a couple hours. Kinda like what they do any time there’s a parents event for the U of M.
Otherwise, well, as long as a certain demographic doesn’t invade their neighborhood, they are ok with ‘that’ demographic sleeping in the alleys and barricading themselves in what few public bathrooms there are.
will you run? and on a side note, i spent most of yesterday afternoon in Liberty Plaza. If you care about those people, may i ask what you do for them?
No. I will not run.
I donate clothing (new) and have donated a lot of (new) camping supplies. There just isn’t enough space at the shelter and the reality is - people are outside. I donate to food pantries. I have offered jobs but (after being thanked) told can make more money on the street. I do what I can with limited income.
Addiction and mental health should be a #1 priority at this point - but the city squandered the money they got for mental health on vanity projects. I have worked downtown since 2002, and services have been dismal at best, and shameful for a city that continually pats itself on the back for practicing ‘KiNdNeSs’. Kindness in handing someone a few bucks is only ‘buying’ your safety on the sidewalk. Giving money away has never solved anything. It is street extortion.
Providing real social services, mental health services, mandated substance treatments, is the only way out of this hole. Having places to LIVE, and food that is AFFORDABLE, makes a differences. During the pandemic, homeless would have to get in a BUS to get to the one place open during the day to use a bathroom. So naturally, they go wherever. Heck, I understand that. When ya gotta go, ya gotta go. But most businesses have understandably closed their bathrooms to the public, because of drug usage and other trouble. Some closed them because of the city’s mandated free feminine hygiene products forced upon already strapped independent business owners (some people find it amusing to vandalize and damage facilities).
Bike lanes and public art should be way down on the list at this point.
But. I’m Gen X, and watched the results of Kennedy signing the start of the collapse of the mental health system bill in 1964. And every administration had chipped away and misappropriated that money since (as Ann Arbor did with their federal mental health money). It’s been a consistent downward spiral - and unfortunately now we are all paying the price.
ok ok. hey i think all those things are the way to go. i'm about bike lanes but don't think the art is responsible to be spending on. Would you support the city purchasing the apartment complexes and turning it into public housing?
Yes. I would support apartment buildings - however knowing how the city runs things, I’m afraid it would turn into an unruly mess. We need a prosecutor that will prosecute and force habitual offenders into treatment. And. I would support the city turning an apartment building into a residential mental health treatment center and actually fund it with the money they get from the feds for this purpose. Mentally ill do not belong in jail. They belong in a locked ward, and they should be in treatment.
I’ll get downvoted from all the naysayers but I watched them close the institutions in the 70’s/80’s get (clearly incompetent) people set up with appointments and meds, only to have non compliance. Bums have always been around, addicts have always been around, but people who are mentally incompetent need to be housed, fed, medically treated and monitored. Clearly Kennedy and his ‘mentally ill should be welcomed into the warm embrace of a community’ bill and the ACLU’s ‘forced treatment is against human rights’ have netted us with a street population that is overwhelmingly harmful to society. It’s not fair to them, and it’s not fair to productive members of society. Mental illness has always been the white elephant and society really effed up when they closed institutions. Separating the organically mentally ill from the addicts and treating each with different protocols would be far more successful in the long run.
But.
It’ll never happen. Because no one in politics wants to touch it. And society, at the end of the day, just flips them all a couple of bucks and goes home.
People vastly overestimate how useful roundabouts are.
They are VERY USEFUL for light traffic conditions. When the traffic gets heavy, they are hell to operate.
Even in Europe, roundabouts have traffic lights during rush hours.
In really heavy traffic, a stream of traffic could completely block another lane from moving for quite a long time, with no end in sight.
This city seems to be taking good ideas but never really thinking more about it, and turning them into bad ideas.
I don't think it was except for maybe some signage but I could be wrong.
A roundabout would be perfect there because that intersection is weird.