PvP ranking according to some of the biggest community influencers
Warhammer IIIAh that explains a lot. Donination battles favor melee heavily.
I was already wondering why Vcoast is D tier. But makes sense, since 0 of their armies have any sort of melee Power, and they have been nerfed heavily multiple times. Maybe buffs will happen once.
Domination is also about movement speed. Vcoast is pretty slow. Much better for land battles and sieges. Same with Dawi whom have the worst ranking out of any other faction in domination.
I noticed that Turin gave his fav faction (Vampire Counts) an S+ and so did RubberDuck (Lizardmen) but Enticity gave his Wood Elves a C+
Looks like the chaos factions are going to be the most played in Domination
Turin says his favorite faction is the Empire at ~ 16:40 or so in the video, but to be honest I didn't watch all of it.
Turin favorites are Empire, Dawis and Kislev, you rarely see him touch the VCounts even back in TWW2. But VCounts are no doubt, a menace in Domination mode.
i wouldnt really call them out ranking their favorite factions that high, because in all 3 cases the other 2 rank those factions similarly (S+ and A- for LM, A+ and S for counts, B- and C+ for WE)
the one which stands out to me is cathay, turin giving them a B- while duck gave them an F, which puts them even below the dwarfs in his eyes, who the other two also gave F tier
Turins favourite faction is empire and always has been. He doesnt ever really play vampire counts. Enticitys favourite faction is vampire coast if im not mistaken.
Duck is LM, Turin is (and always has been) an Empire and Dwarf player (and he likes Nurgle because he plays Death Guard in 40K TT). Enticity‘s nickname is „The Krakenlord“ as he is a VCoast main.
How would you even balance inherently slow factions like dwarfs for a fast-paced model like domination? Give them some kind of unique buff for that specific mode?
One suggestion I've seen (which may have been on that video) is an extra spawnpoint they get to place thanks to miners tunneling. Another thing is serious extra capture weight for the slow moving infantry.
Nurgle is, per above, fine in domination and isn't too mobile.
I think they need to do more work with capture points. Break them up (internally/mechanically, not visually) into three overlapped squares which get progressively smaller, with capture weight being highest when you're standing in the middle of the point and lowest when you're trying to cheese it by putting a unit on the very edge.
That would help Dwarfs a lot because right now its very easy to cheese captures from units like Ironbreakers who should be good at stopping it.
The difference with Nurgle is that Nurgle do have viable fairly quick units. Nurglings, Toads, its fliers, even if the latter can't capture it adds, but the Nurglings and Toads are HUGE, one being vanguard cheap swarm and other a cav. Slow cav, but still a cav.
Dwarfs have neither. They have slayers but they're closer to elites. They got no swarming unit than Miners, and nothing like a cav or large unit to bog anything down. Their flying units are bit mediocre and can't contend against other fliers.
I do agree that what you suggested might help Dwarfs, or up their capture weight and such. I don't think there's anything you can add or do to fix Dwarfs from its own roster and race, unlike its cousins Chaos Dwarfs who will actually have a roster that builds on the weaknesses Dwarfs have.
For demon factions they also considered the new units, in which case nurgle get highly armoured chaos knight with poison, so they'll have plenty of mobility considering furies are still crazy cost effective.
They mentioned dawi could have higher capture weight to counteract their slowness, but I am not sure that would be enough.
cant cap if they cant reach capture point
Maybe allow them to field a larger starting army and have less reinforcements?
just saying, turin never plays vampire counts and enticity rarely plays wood elves lol, neither of those are their mains. Duck though does play quite a lot of lizards.
I was going to say, Turin's favorite faction is Empire. Enticity is Vampirates.
Enticity used to be a vamp Coast main though not a wood elf main.
I noticed that Turin gave his fav faction (Vampire Counts) an S+
You know nothing about Turin and Sigmar will strike you.
Turin has never once claimed VC to be his favorite faction
Also Enticity for years had nickname Kraken King as he loved Coast in WII and in WIII he tried.to like Cathay- but both factions perform too poor on competive level. And he moves towards Slaanesh now.
But you got RubberDuckofWar right.
Domination is also about movement speed
*in 1v1
Which I guess is the competitive format, but playing with friends in team matches makes a lot of the slower ranged factions a heck of a lot more viable, since there's usually someone fighting on every point, you can't relly on back capping because the "back" does not exist!
I bet dwarfs would be good in team games as well. It's also map dependent, in smaller maps they can probably do fairly ok.
Depends on map. Dwarves really rely on maps that have at least two points that can be controlled by one artillery position. If that happens, they can be somewhat good.
But another problems is such maps (like black ark map) are big and open, letting enemy cavalry maneuver and pull apart dwarfs
I think Vampire Counts are one of Turin's more disliked factions. He describes a lot of their MP tactics as degenerate, and his hatred of VC mirror matches in his tournaments is a running joke. In the video he said the main factions he planned to play were Empire, Kislev, Nurgle and Tomb Kings.
Are the Wood Elves Enticity's favourite faction? He made his name with the Vampire Coast, and usually talks about liking powder.
S+ is a silly metric (what's the point of "beats everything and is overpowered plus!!) but the reasoning for Lizardmen is that with their upcoming buffs they basically just get to womp everyone else in melee.
Skinks are hyper-efficient for getting mass on points, revivification crystal is real strong, you can bomb mobs of enemy melee with Kroak or terradon riders, and regular saurus are super efficient (if slow).
They really don't have any weaknesses in domination.
S+ is a silly metric (what's the point of "beats everything and is overpowered plus!!)
Well, in the video they said that Counts are straight-up so good it isn't seeing play anymore because no one wants to bother going up against it, so that's pretty dire.
Also no more rampage. So…yea there just really good
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1.8y
AFAIK the reasoning was simply that vampires are busted as hell, and lizardmen are one of the few factions that just dumpster vampire counts.
Explains why the Melee heavy Chaos factions run away with these scores and leaves Tzeentch sobbing in the corner. 😂
That would explain the dwarves.
Don’t care… let the grudges hit the floor!
It's specifically pvp in domination mode, so the non-mobile factions arnt doing well At all
Nurgle's not particularly mobile though.
This was speculative and included new units like chaos knight. The healing was one of the main argument for them.
Chaos knights and chosen with nurgle levels of healing is going to be disgusting.
Disgustingly resilient even
Mind, it's entirely possible nurgle Chaos Knights are going to be slower than the regular ones, remember, we've not seen the stats for marked units much.
Doesn't matter as long as they can get to the point relatively fast, since it's domination mode.
They do have many mobile options though. Furies, Drones, Nurglings who can vanguard. Even Plague Toads can react to plays. And with the DLC they're going to get hounds and cav.
Compare that to Dwarfs who have literally 0 mobility (While Gyro's are mobile, they cant cap or really do anything besides mild harass) or Cathay which has exclusively shitty mobile units.
They aren't but they have some good mobile units. Furies and toad riders perform really well.
I didn't expect such a spread. It's interesting seeing people who watch and play countless matches have such a variety in their opinion, as they should equal out.
Do we know if they were going off win %, favoured match ups, or personal opinion?
Well considering it's only the influences who have access to immortal empires PvP they can only base these off the games they played amongst themselves.
Yes true, but I've watch enough Turin to know he wouldn't rank them by the seat of his pants. It's either Win % and/or the Faction with the most favourable match ups for him.
I don't really know the other two guys very well. But I imagine they aren't likely two rank them arbitrarily either, and I'm curious if they had some agreed scale of measure.
Where did you get the rankings from?
Turins recent stream, they do explain their decisions just can't recall them off the top of my head.
Np I'll have to check it out, is the VOD on Yt?
Yep it is
Enticity is one of the best MP players out there. He also does a lot of challenge campaigns. He’s a cool dude.
Enticity is also the current leader for Turins ladder on his website, so what he says for MP tanking in Domination should be highly valued.
You should check him out, he does MP, very cool campaigns and he started doing a lot of 1-3 minute explanation videos for hidden mechanics/strong strategies/unit bugs.
I can seccond that. Enticity does very informative content condensed in a very tight format which i learned to enjoy a lot and learned a lot from.
Especially his spell and chariot guides made my Slanesh gameplay so much better.
He is also just a genuinely positive factor in the community. Like he says how it is, but he is very nice about it.
And he is great for SP people to maybe breach out into MP, as he does very high level content for both modes.
I love his like 3 minute quick tip videos. My sentiment after 80% of them is "huh, I never thought about that and that's extremely min max-y but I'm kinda glad I know that now."
Guy is quite concise and crazy knowledgeable.
Rotating the Cathay blimps!
From some of the matches and commentary I've watched, some of the bigger disagreements like with the wide spread on Dark Elves likely revolves around new emerging metas that are rather specific - in this particular example, Malus seems to make Dark Elves a powerhouse in 3, but people this meta is a fairly new "discovery" that the people with this alpha access are catching on to. Etc.
I'm surprised Skaven aren't ranking higher though (this is a Domination mode ranking). They have some really nasty tricks for summons spam that can shut armies down hard and give Skaven a big lead if they just take two characters.
The thought is with Skaven is that they'll struggle initially but once people discover their tactics, they likely will be pretty strong.
Skavens main issue is expendable infantry and low leadership infantry, it's hard to hold points if you are constantly routed off and returning
Rubber duck really hates cathay lol
It's a faction designed around fighting AI. All those neat harmony bonuses and specialized units go to shit instantly when the enemy player doesn't attack from only 1 direction and doesn't let your ranged troops shoot uninterrupted the whole battle.
Cathay lacks good offensive infantry. All there damage is from magic, the dragon twins, or range…which can be a problem.
They just lack good attacking melee units in general. Lancers are decent for a mid-tier heavy shock cav but that's it. They aren't going to do jack against higher-tier staff. The Longma are alright but aren't like the RPG, they tire and lose killing and staying(not like there's much to begin with) power. The Righteous Lances of Wei-Jin are their only good offensive melee unit as it's a souped-up Lonngma unit with mostly AP WS.
Jade lancers can respond to low armor stuff, but they can’t break open anything with higher then average armor. The only things they have for actually killing armor in melee are sentinels, the twins, and summoned halberd. Just need like a jade greatsword unit.
Turin's most recent Cathay replay showed this well. He got a frontal charge on Silver Helms with a rear charge from peasant horsemen. Perfect sandwich.
It must have taken the Jade Lancers like 5+ minutes to kill them at which point they were on like <15% health.
Davh uploaded the same game from his side and the silver helms got at least one apotheosis, tho they still hold a lot more of what's expected
Curious to see if the rumored "Dragon Monks (?)" will be their Anti-Infantry, Armor-Piercing shock Infantry. They have to be a DLC eventually right?!
I'm also looking forward to see what the Monkey King will bring in terms of Units. I'm thinking he'll be a Drycha lord using mainly his genre of units and supplementing with subjugated Cathayans.
Yeah, they're a cheap sweeper unit but aren't good anymore to deal with tougher units.
Cathay actually does decent in land battles, IIRC. (not amazing, but not terrible) the problem is they (like dwarfs) aren't suited for domination at all.
I think they are a decent bit better Dwarfs basically. Jade Warriors are actually really good for their price point, they have Jezzails and the Dragon Lord of Yin is kinda crazy.
The issue I see with Cathay is that human factions are usually balanced around being versatile which Cathay is missing. If they get some DLC I could see them develop like Skaven did, cuz the rats used to be unplayable without all the new units as well.
Cathay will be a force when they get a life wizard that is not a dragon.
I think it's also harder to bunch up in one spot where you general provides more harmony bonus in domination where there's at least like 3 points of contest and if you have ranged units on any of those points they're vulnerable to being flanked. They're probably better on land battles.
Some kind of cheap horse archer unit (to provide Yin Harmony in a mobile format) would help, I think. Along with as mentioned some more hard-hitting melee options.
What do you mean? Most of these ratings are very close to one another asides from Greenskins and Dark Eleves
Cathay has a B to F
Enticity based his on expected tournament play and win percentages, considering most optimal builds for each faction. The other two were more general, talking about the number of good match ups and overall strengths. Important to mention this is for Domination mode, the go-to mode for PvP. They all heavily caveated that their experiences so far have been anecdotal because they're playing on like four maps against the same group of people.
I didn't expect such a spread. It's interesting seeing people who watch and play countless matches have such a variety in their opinion, as they should equal out.
I really don't know what you're talking about. Apart from Greenskins, Dark Elves and Cathay they are all within one letter of each other. They rate 21 of 24 races basically the same - Norsca D+ to C-. Tzeentch A to B+. Such variety, much wow.
The spread isn’t honestly as wild as I thought it would be. You can see trends everywhere, eg dwarves are hot garbage.
general broad aggreement on the rankings, with the notable exceptions dark elves to a limited extent, but most strikingly cathay
theres a HUGE disagreement on cathay there, one saying its B- to anothers F, thats quite a disparity
Since Enticity played dark elves a lot and Turin does not, I would think Turin might be wrong here. Dark elves lack staying power, which is critical in domination battles.
Also if their ability only triggers once, it would be significantly worse in domination vs land battle.
I've seen a fair number of vods with Turin playing against the Dark Elves though, and from what I've seen they do very well in Domination. Bleakswords are super cost-effective now so they can field a very wide presence, and their usual mobility, cheap AP missiles and good lords and magic choices means they have a tonne of tools to generate value.
Murderous Prowess barely matters when you can just out-value the enemy and make your army go way further.
Tbf most of the time he’s playing enticity who is just a much better player. Turin is really really good ofc, but his opponent is probably one of the 10ish best TWW multiplayer guys. Might skew the matchups a fair bit.
A lot of Enticity's favourite factions are rated lower than where Turin and Duck put them, I think his list suffers from some selection bias since he can see more flaws with the playstyle of the races he knows better.
Pretty sure I’ve seen something that states their ability can trigger more than once in mortal empires but not completely confident
Pretty sure that was the realm of souls for the tomb kings. I have heard nothing about them making murderous prowess activate more than once.
Realm of Souls with Tomb Kings can now proc more than once, but Murderous Prowess is only a one-time thing still
How did nurgle go from low c-tiet to S tier?
because of speculations of how the new units will work in his roster. chosen with nurgle healing would/will be absolutely bonkers.
I have no idea why you're being downvoted for stating facts about the content of the stream lmao
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1.8y
I'd argue that VCounts are better at healing. Model ress and cost of spells is at whole different level.
However HP of units is not.
They are very high as well
Uh, yes I also watched the stream. Did you mean to reply to me?
Its mostly coming from their newfound access to things they were missing.
Nurgle had no armor and they now get acces to warrior
Nurgle had no way to deal with missles other than furries but now they have shields
Nurgle had no AP and now they get Great weapons
Nurgle had no really good mobility and now they get two version of Chaos Knights
The only thing they appear to be missing still is anti large. Im not sure the ranking is taking into account the possible nerfs to stream of corruption and the potential cost increase to furies which i've heard discussed but those are not certain.
Won't Festus have access to Chaos warriors with halberds? Nurgle marked or otherwise?
I think Tzeentch is the one that gets the Halberds.
Ya but he'll still have undivided halberds which are pretty darn good.
That’s for Warriors of Chaos though, not monogod Nurgle.
They are getting knights with lances though.
They've been slowly climbing in the rankings for the past several months. In Enticity's qualification tournament last month he ranked them second behind Khorne.
Nurgle was already A or S, and they're about to get a whole bunch more tools to fill gaps in their roster.
The CoC DLC new units solve all Nurgle problems, they re no longer slow, they are even tankier and deal more damage
Here is their Combined rating for each faction in Order:
Slaanesh S
Nurgle S
Warriors of Chaos S-
Vampire Counts S-
Lizardmen S-
Khorne A
Kislev A
Tomb kings A
Tzeentch A-
BeastMen A-
Greenskins B+
Demons of Chaos B
Skaven B
Dark Elves B-
High Elves B-
Ogre Kingdoms B-
Empire B-
Wood Elves C+
Brettonia C
Norsca D+
Vampire Coast D+
Grand Cathay D-
Dwarves F+
No high elves?
Must have accidently removed them when I rearanged them in ranking order, put them back in :)
THIS IS GOING IN THE BOOK
THEY HAVE WRONGED US
Why are the dwarves so low? I thought they have Very sturdy and good melee. Since this is Domination, that should favor them enough to not be F tier.
They have no mobility, so they can't really contest points very well. Domination battles tend to be very fluid and you need to be able to respond to things happening all over the map. I think this is one of the reasons why Slaanesh is ranked so highly.
But isn't Nurgle also quite slow? They're rated S tier in this ranking.
Nurgle has hounds and furies, cost effective vanguard in Nurglings AND in the next DLC they're getting Chaos Knights
Ah I see. That makes sense.
Nurgle also has healing, which gives them a lot more staying power compared to dwarves.
nurgle is slow in general, but has some very fast units like furies and drones
they are also more "generically tanky" then dwarves, having healing magic and higher health pools which makes them better for dealing with AP and missiles, where dwarves tank with armour and MD
this is also IE, so in these rankings nurgle has access to some of the WoC units which can fix some of their issues (stuff like chaos knights i believe)
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1.8y
In the build they've been playing with recently, they didn't have the updated Chaos DLC rosters for the monogods and WoC, so they were largely speculating on how well stuff like Nurgle Chosen and Nurgle Knights would do (and "pretty damn well" was their conclusion)
Still, the fact that Nurgle has some fast options at all puts them ahead of the Dwarfs handedly, especially with incoming units that can finally buff out their weaknesses like lack of armor, lack of AP, and generally weaker offensive capability compared to other factions, which all pair very nicely with their excellent magic and disgusting amounts of healing
Nurgle has healing so its very hard to dislodge. It also has forms of cavalry and will be getting more. Their flyers are very good at taking down missles.
Nurgle has more faster units in their launch roster than the dwarf after the KE8 DLC. Warhounds, toads/toad riders, flies/fly riders, furies and Soulgrinder gives them a lot more option. Not to mention this applies to their heroes and lords too, while having good healing all around. The only fast unit the dwarf has are the gyros which are a damage-over-time unit than an assault unit.
No mobility and then the spell/magic resistance change hurt them. Also Rune "magic" is pretty bad, their playstyle can be easily exploited, leading to lots of bad match ups.
Their melee isn't even that sturdy or good compared to the new factions.
Yeah their melee was always underwhelming, and needs to be one of their strengths since they have so few other strengths. I would:
really amp up their spell resistance to around 40-60% it sounds high but spells are so strong and spell resistance really doesn't do much, especially when they cannot dodge anything. If pit of shades would currently delete their units, make it so they take half damage.
Increase melee defence 10% across the board, to make them more effective at holding
Maybe give line infantry some charge defence and reflection. Currently you have no incentive NOT to countercharge in infantry fights, whereas you should be holding
Don’t have the speed or good enough vanguard.
Why are the dwarves so low?
Because they are short?
Let the furious scribbling commence!
Their magic resist is now spell resist, which means they have no resistance to magic damage. Plus, they are so easily outmanuveured that you can spawn camp them, lose the value trade AND STILL WIN!
they are very slow and so cant push up onto points as well as the other races, and if they try to take multiple points the other faster races can goon one point and get massive value on them by taking them out while they are divided because they are too slow to react
turin gave a good breakdown for them, on maps where your artillary can get good lines of fire on 2 points they are decent, but on all the other maps they just cant compete on the points
Dwarfs are indeed very sturdy, so they lose very slowly.
Dwarfs coming up short as always.
We short Kings will rise again
These numbers will change a lot, remember that they played with many bugs so some units and lord weren’t viable, not all the maps, most of the games were domination and of corse, not everyone of them is an expert in every faction so, maybe we will see some crazy Hadres with the Skaven showing us why they are S tier, or maybe not.
Still, their opinion come from veterans and experts in mp and for new players it is very important and helpful.
The podcast it is really good and long but they pointed many interesting factors and reasons.
Indeed, it's a very early speculation and guess, and as they said land battles it hasn't changed much for previous races, but domination is a completely new format, which you can only go by the general idea (quick and cheap units) what sticks.
I'd say it can be both helpful and not, depends what kind of MP you are. If you're looking to climb up, get into tournaments and such, then yeah these will be handy to know.
If you're just a quick battle player who casually plays for fun, then this ranking can be very different depending who you face and what skill level you and they are. Slaanesh isn't as good if you lack the micro and ranged factions or even Dwarfs can be strong if the one you facing (or yourself) don't know how to exploit their weaknesses and the strengths of your faction.
That said I do agree with what they said that if you wanna get into MP first time, whether casual or for tournament, go Khorne. Very simple, don't have to worry about ranged or magic, has strong sturdy infantry and some quick units. All around good race that does well (really well) in casual play as well in tournaments, whilst teaching you how to be aggressive which people used to campaign tend to lack coming to MP.
Dwarfs: oh no, we suck again!
Dwarfs are very proud of their traditional ways of life.
Ehh they were always decent in land battle, DOM just really really hurts them.
Depends what you mean by "decent" they've never been competitive in tournaments and get hard countered by Skaven. In TW3 Slaanesh absolutely dumpsters them because of all of his mobility and armor piercing.
They're just not a good pvp faction if both sides know what they're doing.
Some factions hard counter other faction in TW WH, Dwarfs hard counter some factions like Wood Elves. They struggled against some factions sure, but they were rarely horrible and had a few decent matchups.
They were probably the worst faction back in WH1 to be fair, I don't remember them having a single good match up back then.
I don’t agree with ALL of their ratings, but it’s fair and valid for each one, even after listening to the podcast, sucks to say my favorites aren’t good though.
Why are the TK so good? I like their roster but they doesnt seem as a good PvP to me? At least with my very limited knowledge about it
Cheap good mid tier infantry with Tomb Guard, cheap usable cav with the nekehara horsemen was the reason given
Their army healing ability got buffed big time, nehekhara warriors got an anti Infantry bonus, and Tomb guard spam is apparently really good in domination.
Could you tell me more about that buff?
I'm not sure on the exact numbers but in the example they used was that the ability after the buff heals like 36 or 39% of an Infantry's health whereas before it really wasn't a very noticeable heal.
PTRA BE BLESSED
TK used to be trash because their infantry died hard to winds spells. The magic changes, price adjustment and the extra healing they have got has allowed them to shine. Their infantry is now very hard to remove off points and holding ground is important in Dom. Their mobility is actually pretty good having decent cavalry that perform well against other Cav and infantry. They also have multiple flavor of monsters, missles, artillery and more.
Tomb Kings used to really suffer hard from magic (shudders in Burning Head), and their Realm of Souls wasn't very impactful. With many wind spells like Pendulum and Burning Head getting nerfed hard, infantry like Tomb Guard have a chance to shine with how surprisingly durable they are for their cost. Nehekara Warriors also got buffed with a bonus vs Infantry, which is very handy for them. Their constructs are still excellent, especially with something like Tomb Scorpions being Vanguard Terror monsters, Sepulchral Stalkers being solid ranged magic damage, and Ushabti just being the chads they are (even more so with summons). Their ranged firepower, unlike many factions which rely on guns, is particularly handy since Caskets of Souls and Ushabti Greatbows don't need direct line of sight to be effective. Realm of Souls has also been buffed to be able to pop multiple times and offers better healing.
Put all that together, along with their good Lord and Hero options, decent mobility options, and a straightforward playstyle, and you've got yourself an all-around good faction on your hands!
Wind spells were nefered. In times of W2 they were hard contered by burning head.
Some units prices were lowered.
They got army skill buff.
Check Turin yt. They debated all of that on livestream.
book
I'm worried CA is going to start trying to balance for Domination, which doesn't play like regular total war
My hope is that the balance via capture weight and cost and don't mess with stats too much.
You make that sound as though Warhammer's PvP was balanced at all when it was balanced around land battles. It wasn't.
Domination favors mostly the exact same things that high end players favored in land battles. Mobility, versatility, and cost effectiveness.
Even if missiles are absolutely shit in Domination mode as of now (Turin seems to think new maps would change that) they were pretty bad in land battles also, especially if they were infantry missile units.
Domination balance to me doesn't really look all that much different from land battles, and it's actually really nice that it opens up a bunch of old units that weren't good for much before also.
There are some differences to wh2 land battles. In wh2 elite infantry was a super risky pick, missiles and monsters just dumpstered them. In dom, quality infantry is very powerful, which is nice.
That's obvious that there are differences, however Domination offers a wider array of tactical options due to the way you can reinforce mid battle.
Elite Infantry are not going to ALWAYS be a good idea in domination they still get dumpstered if you bring the counters to them, but that means you're now invested in those counter units which themselves can be countered by other unit types. It's not that much different than in land battles except that the battle itself matters more than what units you picked at the start.
In Land Battles, if you pick the wrong unit comp you're basically screwed if your opponent built an army that counters yours. In Domination you still have a chance, because you have more options in how you can win.
That still means that niche units are niche units. There are still risks involved.
I worry that CA is going to do their regular CA balancing, which means that every patch has to have at least one major change that nobody ever asked for and that needs months to fix
They've become better over time, but balance has been one of CAs weakest aspects since years. Campaign balancing basically doesn't exist, with larger efforts like the proving ground beta being rather rare. Hell, most of their patch notes aren't even complete.
Whenever balance comes up there are people who like to point at MP as the source of the problem when they should actually point at CA.
Lots of the nerfs/changes that the MP community has been blamed for have been the direct opposite of what MP players have lobbied for, the Ancient Salamander double nerf into uselessness being one of them.
Even worse, even years after unanimous feedback from both parts of the community there still have been 0 changes to that unit. Sky lanterns, one of the most worthless units in the game will probably need months as well to remotely approach a non-crippled state.
There is so, so much content in this game that just gets left in the dust because of its balance state. Traits that barely do anything, skills like +3% raiding income, followers and ancillaries that are just useless compared to some uncommon items (10% spell resist, oh my), the red skill lines giving the already overperforming ranged infantry 12% dmg increases while cav gets measly 12% speed or something, etc.
Internal roster imbalances like Night goblins being unlocked on the same tier as Black Orks (why), building & roster progression being a mess, units being made obsolete by new DLC additions, every spell lore having ~2 extremely good spells and several others that are barely worth taking
I'm happy that we see stuff like regen caps increase effects being introduced to the campaign, but stuff like this is just far too rare and too late considering how important balancing is to a strategy game.
CA needs to understand that balancing/polishing isn't a fringe issue, but one that affects all aspects of the game and community, and that it warrants more resources/devs being allocated to these issues than what they did in WH2.
Whenever balance comes up there are people who like to point at MP as the source of the problem when they should actually point at CA.
The part of the community that is like...vehemently opposed to anything to do with multiplayer is odd. Like you said, it's like they have a personal vendetta and blame MP players for things in the most contrived circumstances
Minor changes effect multilayer infinitely more than single player, units being op in singe player is very annoying, but never impossible to overcome. Whereas early vampire counts in Warhammer one multilayer, oof.
which doesn't play like regular total war
And what, pray tell, is "regular Total War"? Because from my count we have Campaign, which is radically different for a multitude of reasons, we have Land Battles and we have Domination. So logically, it's a tough cookie for CA. I vastly prefer the playstyle of Domination to Land Battles in multiplayer, I have no idea where the consensus - if there even is one - lies there though, but I do think it's a more engaging method of PvP that doesn't rely on cookie cutter builds.
Not to mention how much different TW: Warhammer is from other Total War. I mean, even in campaign, infantry has always been the backbone in historical, but if you start relying on melee infantry the most in Warhammer you're in for a bad/more tedious experience.
Balance aint gonna be easy.
Wait, why is nurgle so high in domination?
Beleive it or not Nurgle slowly but surely crept up in the Dom rankings as Domination's rules and mechanics were udpated. The bigger starting army and the different buffs and cost change they got actually helped them a whole lot unlike Cathay. There was a point where they might have been the second strongest faction in the game right beside Khorne althotuht they still had Tzeentch to worry about. I think the lastest set of nerf to the cultist nerf and buff to other factions certainly made them a bit worse but they are still fairly strong on live right now
As to why they jumped from middle of the pack to S tier...
Its mostly coming from their newfound access to things they were missing.
Nurgle had no armor and they now get acces to warrior
Nurgle had no wait to deal with missles other than furries but now they have shields
Nurgle had no AP and now they get Great weapons
Nurgle had no really good mobility and now they get two version of Chaos Knights
The only thing they appear to be missing still is anti large. Im not sure its taking into account the possible nerfs to stream of corruption and the potential cost increase to furies which i've heard discussed.
They always were good in domination. For most time Khorne and then Nurgle were strongest WIII factions in that mode. And here they also speculate that they will get cavalry.
As far as I know (not good player)- Nurgle had good trades with plaguebearers. Good cheap nurglings for stealing objectived. Harpies for disabling enemy shootas, best lore of magic (if we exclude unbalanced stuff like current pit of shades meta) with stream of corruption for damage and healing. They had best staying power on objectives. I think that not rarely they could be losing on value trading, but won on objective points.
In Turin 1.3 patch tourment final round of final match was Nurgle mirror match (mirror matches on more competive tournaments were always sign of strong faction).
Surprised to see Nurgle so high considering they're on the weaker side in Domination right now, anyone know why?
Nurgle has been a top contender in all of the wh3 tournaments Turin ran after the last balance patch, before he switched over to testing immortal empires pvp.
They were bad on release but heavily buffed, and they were very good in domination after.
Among other things Nurgle is going to get Chaos Knights. That means heavy army armor, shields, and speed are available in a single units, Nurgle had little access to each of those before let alone combined. On top of that Marauder Horsemen offer even more speed while Chosen offer even more shielded armor. Most of Nurgle's weaknesses covered now.
because of speculations of how the new units will work in his roster. chosen with nurgle healing would/will be absolutely bonkers.
Because they're getting cavalry it solves the vast majority of their mobility issues. They're a really strong, attrition based faction once you solve that issue.
I mean it's also domination, which is why the Dwarfs are trash, same with the Vampire Coast, probably because both lack speed, unless you go for some questionable builds.
Maybe they will finally do something for the Dwarves one of these dlc.
You kinda can't fix the Dwarfs being bad in this mode because being slow is a core part of their whole thing as a faction.
Well, not exactly, dwarfs are missing an important trait they had on tabletop that made them quicker when near enemies, and missing their charge bonuses they had on TT. Currently, I’d dare say dwarfs are a poorly translated race from TT.
"This pleases Slaanesh"
Vampire counts are complete ASS
You mean ASS++
Looks like the joke went over a lot of people's heads XD
They don't get it- I see two BBCs as well ;)
The video, if anyone was interested in listening to the whe thing or just bits on why X faction had Y ranking: https://youtu.be/T4aVuH9bsoQ
I’m surprised they’re so close together, barring Greenskins and Dark Elves. Seems like they generally met the same conclusions.
I assume this is for domination as well?
Yeah it's just for domination.
Lizardmen gang
I absolutely hate letter rankings, what's wrong with numbers 1-10?
That’s a grudgin’.
So basically, if a race has both solid infantry that doesn’t die or rout to a stiff fart and good mobility, they are at least B-tier. Races with very good of both (like Nurgle with new Chaos Knights) are S-tier
And if you only have mobility but shit infantry, you’re more C-tier (Bretonnia and Skaven)
If you lack usable mobility entirely you are borderline unplayable in domination i.e. D or F-tier (Dwarfs and Vamp Coast).
Artillery and missile units don’t even seem to factor in the rating at all.
I declare that the word 'influencer' has officially jumped the shark and doesn't mean anything.
grumble grumble Get The Book out!
Really, I don’t think I’ve seen a single person win with Lizardmen in the replays
I've seen plenty, Enticity has some if i remember. Cheap skinks to outcapture everything + Rev crystal + Kroak to delete blobs + amazing cav(no rampage anymore) + good mobility. Lizardmen are going to be a menace,
Yeah enticity is doing numbers with the kroq-gar/kroak combo. He had one stream where he took both twice maybe three times and won every time.
Dahv has a really good replay vs khorne where the dinobois pull out the win at the last second.
Someone’s getting a grudgin’ for screwing dwarves over like that
They are bad in domination mode. Too slow to advance and hold points, little vanguard capability, and those they do have like Miners and Rangers get wrecked by other factions vanguard spawns.
All honesty I’ve just got a soft spot for them
Yeah as do I, hopefully they get a few more tools if they really start getting shat on in the meta once IE releases.
That would be CA
Damn, shit must have changed for khorne to not be across the board S+, he was borderline broken.
From what I gathered he's considered a strong generalist faction, but especially with the new DLC for WoC other Chasos factions will be capable of doing what he does but also their own unique thing. Khorne doesn't have Tzeentch's barriers and ranged firepower, Slaanesh's speed and flankers or Nurgle's healing.
Enticity also mentioned in the stream that all of Khorne's warriors got a 100 gold increase in IE so they'll be even more expensive
Poor Vampirates
F for the Dwarfs. That’s a grudge, CA.
Wow, this goes into the book. Dawi rework when?
Clarification: that tier list is strictly for Domination mode. Land Battles are an entirely different beast.
The range for Harmony needs to be lengthened significantly, like 60 instead of the current 40. The effects of Harmony also need a buff.
Low marks for the Dwarves…
Keep in mind these rankings are for domination mode, not land battles.