www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/te-reo-maori-govt-seeks-to-halt-extra-pay-for-public-servants-fluent-in-the-language/4Y4WR6LC4FBDVII6Z3XNKDQES4/
Te reo Māori: Govt seeks to halt extra pay for public servants fluent in the language
NewsI'm a public sector employee. This was added to our employment agreement this year. There is no requirement to undertake any additional duties. The allowance is paid every year based on your qualification (level 3-5). The highest allowance is $3.5k a year.
Oh shit, I have a level four qualification! I need to check what my org's policy is for this.
Thanks NACTF government for making me aware of this!
If I do get the money I feel like I should donate it to a kohanga reo or something.
OK, I've moved out of that sector in the past year. I heard nothing about it up till July.
It 100% is :)
Right so now I know the lady leading karakia at work gets paid extra for it
Why should she not be paid for doing extra tasks at work?
I mean if it doesn't add any value to the business why should she be paid extra?
...because it's part of their job?
It's not a "If you speak Te Reo, you get more money", it's a "If you speak Te Reo, you can opt in to be paid more and take on extra Te Reo related duties."
No it's not. If you have a level 3-5 Te Reo qualification you get paid extra. No duties are required.
Right yeah if it's part of the job description it makes sense. I misread the conversation.
By that logic people shouldn't be paying rent.
that analogy makes 0 sense.
Landlords add zero value to the economy. Why should they be paid at all?
Sorry, forgot you needed everything spelled out to you.
If it's within her normal working hours I don't see why she should. If it's outside her normal hours then should be paid overtime at a reasonable rate. No reason to make special stipends for it.
So, if your job description had more duties than your coworker, and you both got paid the same, you'd be fine with that?
If you got paid the same, to do the same work, but, you also had more work to do as well for no extra pay?
Does she have more duties, or different duties? She's not doing her normal job when she's doing her special one.
It's not like the special jobs are particularly onerous either.
They're clearly extra tasks, that's what the pay is for. It's a contractual agreement, you bring X qualifications and skills, you get paid to use X at work.
Also, the pay is not just for speaking Te Reo, but also for speaking any second language fluently that is used for work.
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I'd expect to either be paid for them, or excused from my normal duties for the duration. Which is exactly what I've said.
more skills = more pay
(tell that to my employer though!)
Yeah that‘s like saying two Cleaners should be paid differently as one does the kitchen bins and one the office. No, they are doing the same job with slightly different tasks.
But for the fact that someone who is only fluent in English can't just become fluent in Te Reo or Spanish to complete a specific task. Bins and languages aren't exactly the same, eh?
Bins and languages aren't exactly the same, eh?
Languages are big bins that contain words.
On a worldwide scale, being able to empty bins is more useful than a language that is so little used, barely anyone in the one country anyone cares about it uses it.
One does the kitchen bins, the other cleans the operating theatre....
Different set of skills, that it took much longer to develop.
Not necessarily, it's going to depend on a bunch of stuff. In most of the teams I've worked in we just took turns if it was just a team meeting, those were supportive environments, We even heard Cantonese and Hindi versions on occasion.
Though engaging with external stakeholders we made sure the person leading knew their stuff. I'll also note that every team I've worked on has been studiously politically neutral, so no religious stuff either.
In all honesty, I’d prefer public servants just got on with things and not have ritual greetings any language or religion before each meeting. It seems a massive waste of time.
I find karakia at the beginning of meetings awkward but considering all the ways that time gets used throughout the day, in every job, its barely a blip.
You assume no religious stuff because you (somehow) know that the team is politically neutral? Do you mean apolitical or politically centrist?
I also assume this is something most team members agree on in your workplace. Not the place for me, it just happens.
Everybody had their own opinions, and they were quite different, but politics outside of the workplace only. So on the job, apolitical.
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I had to Google what that is.
"Karakia are Māori incantations and prayer used to invoke spiritual guidance and protection. They are generally used to increase the spiritual goodwill of a gathering, so as to increase the likelihood of a favourable outcome, such as at a court hearing."
Why on earth is that happening before a workplace meeting?
In a workplace I've never seen anything other than secular karakia (translations always provided) calling for things like team spirit and good health. It's a ritual, same as many team building exercise or morning coffee with your coworkers, and that isn't inherently religious unless the words themselves are
calling for things like team spirit and good health
Calling on who, exactly?
If you were to go fishing, and say "I hope the fish are biting today." or "C'mon fish, start biting". That's a karakia. If you start a meeting and say "Ok everyone, let's settle down and get underway, and hope for a good outcome.", that's a karakia. The English words "Incantation" and "Prayer" being applied to Karakia are a bit limiting. Sure, sometimes they're used for the similar purposes to those, but they're use is much wider.
The other person said "calling on".
https://maoridictionary.co.nz/word/2275
Dictionaries seem to disagree with you, incidentally.
Would you say that there was a spiritual dimension to a karakia?
The other person said "calling on".
I'm not sure what this is related to. The person before them said "calling for". When one says "C'mon fish, start biting" we are calling for the fish to bite, and calling on the fish, but not literally expecting the fish to do our bidding - it's an idiom to express our hopes and desires.
Dictionaries seem to disagree with you, incidentally.
The dictionary misses that many karakia delivered by normal people in their day to day lives were expressions of desire. Missionaries latch on to the word karakia and the relationship that pacific people have to the natural world and immediately jump to "spells, incantations".
Would you say that there was a spiritual dimension to a karakia?
To some karakia. To all karakia in general, no.
The spirit of wasting time
Fate? The universe? Whoever else an athiest is calling on when they say "I hope for a good outcome, today there will be productive vibes?" Sometimes calling on each other to support each other, or calling on your own skills to support you? Read these translated examples and you tell me, lol
"May clarity be yours through respect, may understanding be yours through reflection, may we be filled with wellbeing through personal endeavor"
"Settle the spirit, clear the mind, prepare the body to achieve what needs to be achieved"
When closing a meeting: "Restrictions are moved aside, so the pathways is clear, To return to everyday activities"
Considering that the Maori belief system is that everything is linked, and has mauri - spiritual force - calling on ANYTHING - the environment, the universe - has religious overtones. And "I hope" isn't anywhere near "I call on" as far as the same meaning goes.
Personally, I'm not a fan of them because I find them a cross between the school song and lip service - the number of karakia I've seen which are the equivalent of saying Grace at your grandmothers is legion, and you do get the impression from a lot of people that "right, that's the cultural bit out of the way, time for the meeting".
If you're going to do it, take it seriously. But no-one does, at least in Government service.
You’re lucky that you didn’t know what it is.
My first job was a very small Christian company and they did a quick prayer before the Monday kickoff meeting but I thought that was just an oddity with a company of only 4 people..
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Because this is new Zealand and this the cultural tradition here.
"This the cultural tradition here" Limited to Maori organisations and government department, I imagine.
Nope
Its a (Christian) prayer,spoken in Maori
Not necessarily.
There are also karakia which invoke Polynesian atua (gods) rather than (Christian) God, and secular ones which just express good vibes for the business ahead.
the express intention that the person would take on additional duties in addition to core business. Things like karakia
Personally I’m happy for the government to not be employing prayer leaders.
Yea I understand the other guys point but anything remotely religious should be no where near a government entity.
Pity our new PM is a hardcore godbotherer then.
I have nothing wrong with religious people in government...
But he doesn't make anyone pray to his God before every meeting.
Sure, what about the rest of it?
Other than the bit that undermines human rights, I don’t have any problem with people being paid for skills that are relevant to their role. Putting this as a bonus for all roles within collective bargaining agreements doesn’t achieve that distinction though.
Which part undermines human rights?
On the issue of payment: If you were a mechanic and say specialised on a certain type of engine, should you not get paid a bit extra if you have also unskilled on another type of engine and can do that one as well?
Which part undermines human rights?
The government employing people to carry out religious duties infringes upon the freedom of religion. Which I would consider to be a rather fundamental human right.
If you were a mechanic and say specialised on a certain type of engine, should you not get paid a bit extra if you have also unskilled on another type of engine and can do that one as well?
That’s not how this system works. If I was an accountant who had specialised mechanic skills on a particular type of engine, I would be paid more under collective agreement that provided bonuses to all staff who had that skill. That’s how this system works. Even if you were talking about a mechanic, having a specialised skill like that is only valuable if my role involves using that skill. This system doesn’t make any distinction at all on whether any value is being provided by the skill.
Value aside, the way this works is very transparently corrupt to me, because I’ve seen exactly the same thing before when I lived in Singapore. Where a lot of companies either list Chinese language requirements for roles, or provide bonuses for Chinese language skills, regardless of them having any relevance to the role at all, as a way of discriminating against non-ethnic-Chinese without breaking any laws.
I don’t think that having to sit through the odd Karakia infringes on anyone’s human rights. If someone was being forced to recite one, then maybe I could get behind that argument but it’s a false equivalence.
I’m non religious and it doesn’t hurt to go through the practice as a sign of respect to those that do engage with it.
Quite literally it’s advertised as have skill get paid. I’m unconvinced that being upskilled in this way is somehow non-transparent.
If the issue is injecting another culture into a government workplace just say it.
Of course it does. What if you had to sit through an occasional Christian prayer? Or attend the occasional catholic mass?
But even if there wasn’t any level of compulsion to participate, the government deciding which religious duties should receive public funding, and which should not, also violates your freedom of religion. If the government created a karakia ministry, and sent karakia practitioners to all schools, hospitals and every other government institution, then that would very clearly violate freedom of religion. The only difference between that scenario and today’s reality is scale, the principles are exactly the same. If instead of karakia is was Christian prayer, then I think the objectable-ness of this practice would become even more obvious.
I have literally had to do that. It helped create the foundations of respect from which collaboration could occur.
Again I reiterate I’m atheist as f*ck. It didn’t hurt me to pay respect to their custom.
I think religious oppression and being a little inconvenienced has been swept up together and it’s gotten a bit too easy to claim one when in fact it’s entirely the other.
In fact being inconvenienced has been mutated into a much bigger thing than it really needed to be and stepping back and assessing whether it really really REALLY negatively impacts someone needs to be honestly engaged with.
Now to call myself on my own rhetoric I would say that someone who say experienced actual religious oppression (the kill your family because your book looks different kind) I would see good reason to excuse them from proceedings which may expose them to further trauma in that vein.
Fuck yes. Karakia needs to fuck off out of public life. Christian references have no place in this country and are nothing to do with Maori culture but are actually emblematic of the takeover and reappropriation of it. I have no clue why this shit is acceptable in the public sphere. We aint a christian nation.
A lot of karakia enjoyers will tell you that it’s “not a prayer”, which is one of the most detestable examples of gaslighting I’ve ever come across…
Having sat through many a karakia and particularly been regaled from NUMEROUS stories of karakia from my wife who worked in thenpublic sphere, Im yet to hear one that wasnt religious. 95% of them have been expressly christian as well. I wouldnt mind generic spirituality tbh. Thats fine. You arent jamming a religion down my throat. The moment jesus gets a mention you can fuck off.
There's plenty of non-religious ones.
I heard one a few days ago during a staff meeting which was essentially: "Thanks to the people who prepared the food and thank you to all our friends who have attended today".
Not very religious.
Im cool with this. In fact I quite like that. Perhaps Ive just received the raw end of the stick on these to date…
Some that my wife’s recounted Id legit be making complaints about. Joining together in prayer, thank you jesus etc. No. that’s not cultural. That’s religious imperialism and it BAFFLES me that its now considered part of your culture…
The biggest issue is that the majority of people who know karakia will have first learned religious ones. Like the Lords Prayer is one that far more people know than anything else.
If you get put on the spot, you just grab what you know best which is almost always going to be a religious or spiritual one.
If I'm not put on the spot I'll pick and choose based on the context. But for some dumb reason everyone loves putting people on the spot. The first couple times I'll just trot out whatever springs to mind and then later ask them to warn me in advance if they want me conducting ceremonies.
Making people join in seems off to me unless it's already in a direct Māori context. I know some of the old kaumātua do that type of thing at openings and other events which I don't particularly agree with. I think it'll change as generations switch out.
Probably the most common one, Whakataka te hau, has no reference to religion whatsoever.
What a unique perspective.
I don’t think there should be any blanket extra pay for being fluent in Te Reo Māori.
I’m ok with it being a skill (along with all your other skills) which you bring to the table, and if the potential employer values your skills for their specific role over other candidates, then maybe you’ll be offered more. ie, just the same as any other desired skill you may have.
For most public sector jobs, pay is set to a collective agreement and pay scale, so it’s not like skills like this allow you to negotiate better pay - for the most part I’m not opposed to this because staff members fluent in te reo are often called on to do extensive work providing services such as translation, cultural advice etc when they are not being employed or compensated fairly to do so. Reality in NZ is te reo is a skill that gets called on a lot, and it’s pretty common esp for junior staff to get called on outside of their day job to perform cultural services.
Our course fees are paid for by our employer, but we don't receive any extra pay for successful completion and I'm okay with that.
They also offer courses in other languages too.
I don’t think there should be any blanket extra pay for being fluent in Te Reo Māori.
The reason you have stuff like this, or quotas in a very general sense, is because you want to culturally and societally normalise certain things over a long term period. Same reason some countries protect some cultural practises in law, so those traditions arent' eroded.
Moves like this unfortunately undo that type of progress.
ie, just the same as any other desired skill you may have.
Chicken/egg. If more people speak Te Reo then fluency is more valuable. But you can't get to that point without first putting programs in place to encourage/incentivise it as a cultural norm.
Isn't that it exactly though. The previous government determined that the skill had value for public servants in a blanket capacity. Every sector with someone fluent added value to that sector.
Exactly this.
Yeah this is the sort of thing that would appeal to this subreddit.
I think anyone who is bi/multilingual should receive bonuses. They are often called upon to translate when their job isn't that of translator.
It would also be good to know what the actual cost is for these bonuses. One suspects that removing this is mostly optics and not about money.
Journos will be OIA'ing right now, but its bugger all in the grand scheme. Nicola Willis has the finance portfolio so should have bigger things to focus on. Sounds a bit like 'culture war to distract you from the class war' tactics.
'More than a dozen state agencies pay te reo allowances starting at $500 and topping out at $3500 a year.
The top rate recommended by the commission, of $3500, had stayed that way since 2003, till a recent inflation adjustment.
The Māori Language Commission Te Taura Whiri said it would be "a great shame" to curtail the allowances that had expanded under governments of every stripe since the 1980s.
Te Taura Whiri had just gone online to meet growing demand, and had recently doubled the recommended top rate, to $7500 a year.'
RNZ
So yeah it's fuck all.
If you get a lot of "fuck all"'s you end up with "a fuck of a lot" and left wondering why you're broke.
It’s just a coincidence that a lot of the “cuts” relate to te reo.
If we take the 2021 numbers from StatsNZ of people who are able to speak Te Reo "fairly well" then it's 7.9% of the public. If we assume that number holds true for the public service, then we take the public service FTEs from the Public Service Commision, then it's 7.9% of 63,117. So, 4,986 people can speak Te Reo Māori "fairly well" in the public service. If we take the top most wage bonus ($3500 per year), then that would amount to $17 million per year. But, with the mean salary rate ($2000), then it's $12 million per year.
With a generous figure of $12 million, then it's still less than 1% of budget expenditure from 2023. Compared to the tax cuts the government wants to fund, $12 is nothing. Also, as the government isn't going to stop that $12 million that's currently being spent and will be slashing public service workers, this policy will likely not shore up millions dollars more every year. We're not going to go broke over this policy, and it won't save us a considerable amount in budget.
ETA: Also, if these workers with Reo Māori knowledge are gone, that translation work will still have to happen. The government will have to pay translators which will cost a lot more long term than relying on in-house knowledge. This policy will absolutely not save costs, and axing it has the potential to create more costs down the line.
If we take the top most wage bonus ($3500 per year), then that would amount to $17 million per year. But, with the mean salary rate ($2000), then it's $12 million per year
Except that if you read the article, Te Taura Whiri has doubled the recommended top rate, to $7,500 a year. To me this feels like a trade union mandated job perk rather than providing a useful service to your employer, and one that will never stop being an increasing cost to the taxpayer.
With a generous figure of $12 million, then it's still less than 1% of budget expenditure from 2023. Compared to the tax cuts the government wants to fund, $12 is nothing.
This is the sort of bollocks thinking that Grant Robertson uses all the time. It's a small amount of money compared to the overall budget, so it doesn't matter. $12 million is 400 knee replacements per year. 400 people that will have a better quality of life, as opposed to funding a secondary language in the public service (with no audit of its actual use or value for money mind you)
Except that if you read the article, Te Taura Whiri has doubled the recommended top rate, to $7,500 a year.
That's a recommended amount, and I'm being generous with my figures, even still. After that, it's not like these skills aren't being used and, if they aren't used, wouldn't be outsourced. There will always need to be translation work, tikanga work, and other work which will have to be outsourced to consultants if there's no workbase who are being compensated for having that knowledge.
This is the sort of bollocks thinking that Grant Robertson uses all the time.
I appreciate the comparison to Robertson, thanks! Te Reo Māori knowledge is absolutely outsourced if it's not in-house. Translation work, consulting with iwi work, and other sorts of work in Te Reo Māori will have to be outsourced if people aren't compensated to do just that. If you take the high band regular Policy Analyst job and hire specifically for one worker who can do Reo Māori work, it's $70,000+ per year for one employee. If you add $6,000 onto two workers in the same department to avoid having one specific worker for Te Reo Māori work, it's much less than the cost of hiring one FTE. And that's much less than hiring consultants to do the same job. Te Reo Māori work will need to be done in the future, and that work won't disappear if the knowledge base in-house is gone.
$12 million is 400 knee replacements per year.
Do you seriously think that the money recouped from a generous figure of $12 million will go entirely to the healthcare system rather than a hundreds of millions dollar fiscal hole for tax cuts for landlords and the wealthiest New Zealanders? Because, if so, I have a few bridges I'd love to sell you.
ETA: Also, if these workers with Reo Māori knowledge are gone, that translation work will still have to happen. The government will have to pay translators which will cost a lot more long term than relying on in-house knowledge. This policy will absolutely not save costs, and axing it has the potential to create more costs down the line.
Even back-of-the-napkin calculations will show you that isn't true. If you were paying a translator $100/hr, $12 million is 13 man-years of translation work 24 x 7, or 41 man-years on a normal 8 hour day.
We will still have to pay that $12 million provided absolutely no job cuts, because they're not looking to get rid of the current contracts of those who are given the bonus. If those numbers from currently employed FTEs are reduced, that $12 million dollar in extra expenditure figure drops somewhat. For new hires, that number doesn't increase if this policy goes through. It only decreases if currently employed FTEs who speak Te Reo Māori as a part of their job are reduced.
We're not gaining $12 million by employing this policy, we're just not adding any more to the extra cost. And this doesn't include the manpower hours it will take to consult on this policy, cost this policy, balance this policy, and then write this policy. We're not gaining any significant amount of budget dollars by doing this, mate.
Almost every single thing that this Government has done so far to date fits these parameters - and why not? Look at all the dipshits absolutely lapping it up. Empty suits shouting empty slogans at empty people achieving nothing.
It's definitely about optics. They are jumping on the anti-Maori bandwagon, proposing to neuter The Treaty, advising government to significantly decrease use of Te Reo, removing health services aimed at better-supporting Maori, stating an intention to stop encouraging adoption/learning of Te Reo etc. This isn't about saving money, these are all steps to capitalise on the support from a vocal segment of NZ who actively-dislike anything Maori and want that support removed.
They're even 'reviewing' decades old programmes like MAPAS.
Sounds like they're trying to define and set a new precedent imo
Are they a one off bonus or additional salary? A one off bonus for a skill that a company wants its employees to have/get seems fair
If they are actually using the skill sure, but not if the pay is just by virtue of knowing it.
Don’t we want to encourage the use of te reo in New Zealand? It’s been very effective at increasing proficiency.
To the tune of 3.5k per year?
Fair enough!
The risk with this is that translation or interpreting is an actual job and skillset, there are huge risks with using an untrained person who simply speaks the language. Ethics are a large component of translation.
Yup, translation is hard, even if you speak and write a language fluently you still need subject knowledge, you need to be able to engage people, you need to know who to reach out to to clarify ambiguities, and you need cultural knowledge.
If it is part of their job description, sure. If not, no.
I think anyone who is bi/multilingual should receive bonuses
Why should sexuality be brought into this? /s
But why is maori translation essential? Surely everyone who speaks maori also speaks english.
Chatgpt and google translate work just fine for non critical translation. Stop pissing away public monies.
Brutishly translating when talking to iwi, kura, and other Maori run organisations is a terrible look for the government, and only serves to worsen their relationship. Starting to look like that's what the government is trying to do...
Oh no. Anyway…
Anyway... a significant portion of the country loses any faith in government institutions, leading to increased racial tension and political instability for decades. You can't just pretend like a significant part of the country doesn't matter and expect no consequences.
Frankly most Maori (20% of population) dont give a shit. If you extrapolate the votes that went to Te Pati Maori (3%) then only 15% of Maori care enough to vote for these backwards racially motivated policies. You live in a bubble mate.
I don't think you need to vote for TPM to resent the government knowingly and purposefully erasing or butchering te reo from everything they have control over
Here is a fact: the governments influence over an individual (and by extension communities) life and its outcomes is much smaller than the compound effect of decisions an individual or community can make themselves.
Stop blaming the government and take action on things that are personally important. Nobody is stopping people speaking Maori or engaging with their culture.
The government is trying to figure out how to stop any more public servants getting extra pay for being proficient in te reo Māori.
But it concedes it cannot dump existing allowances.
"I will ... ask for advice on how we could stop these bonuses being negotiated into future collective agreements," the Public Service Minister Nicola Willis told RNZ.
It's so unfair that we're being protested /s
Fair Pay Agreements were used to discriminate are against people who do not speak Māori.
Wild.
People being paid for a skill is not discrimination against people who lack the skill.
And how useful was this skill for the job?
Useful enough for the employer to pay for it.
In past contract work I’ve assisted government comms teams with reo for press releases etc., despite that not being a core part of my JD
Press releases you could have just done in English.
The public service is basically just a group circle jerk huh?
We need to strip the public service all the way back.
On the eulogy for the death of a former Maori minister? And again for a former Maori board member? On te wiki o te reo Maori? On Matariki?
Take a minute to think before espousing lame hot takes
Fair enough.
Then you just employ one person that handles the Maori press releases.
Paying everyone to speak Maori is fucking asinine. That is the public service deciding to do something that no business in their right mind would ever do.
I'm fine with Maori press releases. But paying everyone? Nah fuck off, we aren't your gravy train.
Gut the public service.
Hey Siri, what are the official languages of New Zealand?
Very useful to a lot of departments, especially mfat, acc, ird, etc
Language skills are useful or not depending on the role. I’m fluent in a few languages other than English, and for most of the jobs I’ve had in my career those skills have not been useful at all. Paying a blanket bonus for them in a collective agreement ensures that plenty of people will be getting paid for it without the skill having any relevance to their role.
Why is it a sin to encourage the use and proficiency of te reo?
I didn’t say it was. But if the government is going to pay its employees for speaking it, then it should be because it’s relevant to their specific duties. Not simply to encourage its use.
I don't agree, and think that is a simplistic view.
Firstly, we have a large population of indigenous people whose langauge was suffering greatly, and this policy encourages the development of that language. The Government has a responsiblity to encourage the use of te Reo, and this has been widely accepted, which is why successive governments since the 1980s have worked with the Maori Language Commission to introduce policies ad negotiate allowances in collective agreements to encourage the use of te reo.
Not only does that serve to honour our indigenous people, it also encourages a trend in becoming proficient (which is exactly what we have seen in recent times). Further, as more people learn it and become proficient with it., it becomes more usseful to the persons particular job. To your point, you will also see that the allowance generally exists in agencies who interact with iwi.
You're advocating to just pay people for speaking the language in this case. Which I'd say is the truth this system is trying to conceal, with the flimsy rationale that it is actually valuable for all these roles (without having any test or standard to assess that).
If that's the policy you want, then go ahead and advocate for it openly. But I don't think it will be very popular with the voters.
"Organisation seeks to halt extra pay for workers skilled in x valued capability"
If this was any other skill set, by any other organisation, any working-age individual would see this approach it for the middle-management absurdity it is whereby out of touch people dictate the value of front-line skills. But this is "the Maaris" so will go down well with NewsTalk ZB crowd of policy experts; perfectly happy with misinformed or zero analysis of the skill set, value, demand or necessity for it.
We can certainly talk about the edge cases where this skill is not valued (I dunno... accounting?) but a government making a seemingly blanket statement about how public services interface with a not-insignificant portion of the public betrays their intentions, and what they perceive as valuable skills.
Well that's not true... The private sector defiantly doesn't value compensating if you speak Maori. You're more likely to be hired and they will ask you to help when you have these skills but it's not going to be a 'oh this person speaks Maori therefore pay them more'.
This is specifically a government issue.
You've misread what I said, which was "Organisation seeks to halt extra pay for workers skilled in x valued capability". Not Maori as that's the analogy.
If the incoming CFO at my IT company sought to halt paying a premium for... I dunno, DevOps and CI/CD Pipelines skills because they did not deem them valuable due to idealogical reasons, with little-to-no analysis I'd tell him to sit down and stay in his lane. Swap IT and DevOps with whatever you like. Chefs and Kosher practices. Joiners and maths. Take your pick.
But because its government and Maori, large swathes of people who would roundly object to a similar approach within their own organisation, are going to be perfectly happy with this.
But the public service doesn't treat any other skill this way. The public service doesn't pay a premium for being a great writer or being great at DevOps. These skills are simply incorporated into the total paypacket.
No they contract it all out for a fuckload of money. Thats where most of the money goes, paying peanuts for the workers and wont front up any sort of decent pay for skilled work so they always contract out
Exactly, and having to pay specialist Māori translators as contractors would cost the Govt a LOT more than paying a bit more to do it in-house.
Yeah actually you're right in that they don't have specified premiums for anything else so it's not a perfect analogy. However, companies do provide incentives when trying to meet certain outcomes which is what this would have been (see /u/Automatic_Comb_5632's comment), so there's still an analogy to draw.
Killing it with a blanket statement without at least addressing incorporating it where it should be valued in a more appropriate way (e.g., just in to total pay packet) betrays the motives.
Why are you trying to flex with tech jargon? It makes you come across self conscious of your own intellect. Coincidentally I'm a dev btw so I know exactly what you are talking about but it's kind of weird mate...
Anyway to your point. I understand what you are saying and my point is that I don't think it's relevant or helpful to compare it to the private sector. Generally the private sector is primarily focused on productivity and innovation. In government however there are other goals such as acknowledging cultural heterogeneity.
In terms of upper management making decisions that prioritise skill sets I'm not sure your example fits because for most of those positions it wouldn't be an important skill required to do their job. So if you are an engineer for the government but you also speak te reo Maori from my understanding you get a small pay bump even though it's not related to your job.
To your analogy it would be like your colleague getting paid more because they know photoshop even though they don't use it much but in the company contract it's explicitly said people that know photoshop get an extra pay bump. That persons team may never/rarely use photoshop but yet they get paid more.
So again I don't think comparing the government to the private sector works well in this case due to the other goals that are often set within government entities such as cultural heterogeneity. Personally whether a government should focus on that or not I'm a bit torn.
Why are you trying to flex with tech jargon? It makes you come across self conscious of your own intellect. Coincidentally I'm a dev btw so I know exactly what you are talking about but it's kind of weird mate...
What a weird take, especially when I made the effort to genericise it with other industries for the very reason it may sound too specific. First comment you entirely miss the generic example, then second comment you attack me when I used specific ones.
Second: I already made qualifier on value, and the issue of applying a blanket statement that doesn't seem to discern that value. So I don't know why you spent 3 paragraphs picking apart edge cases with worthless skills when I literally opened with "valued capability".
Personally whether a government should focus on that or not I'm a bit torn.
That's the crux of the issue of communicating such a generic policy, but you were so hung up on my use of "DevOps" and picking apart your own misreading of the analogy, that you missed that entirely.
First: What a weird take, especially when I made the effort to genericise it with other industries for the very reason it may sound too specific.
Too many tech people try to put out this 'im very smart' vibe and it's so obvious when it's happening because they are just needlessly using jargon that they don't need to. My point is I see through that bs lol.
I already made qualifier on value, and my issue of such a blanket statement that doesn't seem to discern value. So I don't know why you spent 3 paragraphs picking apart edge cases with worthless skills when I literally opened with "valued capability".
Edge cases are important. You work in tech. You should know this.
That's the crux of the issue of communicating such a generic policy, but you were so hung up on my use of "DevOps" and applying my analogy 1:1 you missed it.
It was one paragraph lol.
Yes, you’re a dev. You need things interpreted to almost the same precise nature as the code itself, with a possible side case of Asperger’s, hence your constant misinterpretation.
Jesus. Coming in with the mental illness comparisons?
Have a nice day bud.
Oh I thought psychoanalysing each other was OK? Oh, only you can? Ah. My bad.
Calling someone out for over complicating a subject for the pure reason to make themselves seem smart is not the same as dragging in Aspergers.
It would very much depend on the role to be more likely to be hired if fluent in Te Reo. I have never once been asked about it and I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone who knows more than a few words. Public sector maybe, but from my experience it’s not something the majority of the private sector cares about at all.
Yea for sure. There are certainly a few jobs out there where it would help but for the vast majority it's not a useful skill for that job.
Yeah but it's a skill set that isn't needed for the job, or at least won't be once the changes are done. It currently only exists as a feelgood to make people feel obligated to organize karakia and stuff. Should we add a stipend for people who are good at baking to incentize them to bring brownies into the office as well?
Edit - I understand why a lot of people don't dislike this comment, but can any explain why it's wrong? How does knowledge in te reo increase productivity in government work, to the point it's it's paying people more?
Wait until you find out that reo is an official language.
So is sign language and I'm not getting paid for learning that.
The sum our public sector org gives for completing the Te Reo course (internally funded and provided) is more than that allocated for staff members yearly rem increases.
And of course none of us need to, or are asked to do, any more duties because of having done this. Which also means it ends up becoming a waste of time as if you don't keep using the language you forget it and 12 months later are back to square one.
I like learning Te Reo but it is of zero use to my work, ends up not getting used and then forgotten, and uses up vast $ which then mean we end up having to fight even harder to try and pay people fairly and then lose the good ones to people paying market rates.
This is the zero analysis I'm talking about, if you're so happy to compare bilingual skills in public services to office baking.
When everyone in this country can speak English? Yeah being fluent in te reo is about as useful as being able to make scones. The only reason te reo is desirable is because of the grift, and that gravy trains set to derail
Oh there’s 100% chance of some grift in there for sure. There always will be when people spot opportunity. But you’re a Gamer who also focuses on culture war bullshit so there’s also a 100% chance you lap up your preferred flavour of grift on the daily.
Honest question. What makes you consider me "focused on culture war bullshit", but not people like yourself equally engaging in the discussion with me?
also you're a Gamer
I don't get what the point of that is? Most people my demographic are
I'd say a quick read of your post history is enough to determine that, along with some rather despicable comments about the Te Pati Maori protests like "From the River to the KFC!" and calling them "brotestors". So not just culture war bullshit but just straight up racist bullshit. No wonder you've had to create so many accounts.
How is either of those racist
Also TPM is a fascist party advocating for ethnonationalism and they've directly stated to not like democracy and hold racial supremacy views. Ridiculing them is inherently anti racist
but can any explain why it's wrong? How does knowledge in te reo increase productivity in government work
Te Reo is legally an official language of NZ, the government has not indicated any will to change this. The government is obligated to communicate to members of the public in Te Reo. Ergo it is valuable skill which increases productivity if individuals poses it and thus don't have to rely on translators, etc.
In what universe would knowledge of an official language of a country not be a useful skill for working the government of said country?
You are off your fucking rocker.
Can you provide any examples of how te reo knowledge would be useful at a place like MBIE in a context where English could not be used instead? Useful to the point it's worth paying more.
Everybody has the right to access government services using any of our official languages, you don't think having a few people around knowledgeable in said languages would be useful?
If we didn't have to pay for it, I'd be entirely fine with it. However, there isn't a single person in this country who speaks Te Reo but not English... so no I don't consider it useful if it has to be financed. It's not like sign language where people genuinely rely on it to communicate
Maori is an official language of NZ. So, obviously, government documents must be provided in Maori, and at request translated. It also improves engagement and understanding with Maori members of the public.
The article this thread is referring answers your question about where the skill is used already, so have a go reading and comprehending it.
Holy fuuuuuck this is a shit take
Par for the course when it comes to this sub and Māori issues...
I'd say that "now they are just being cunts", but that's obviously incorrect. They were always cunts.
For the improvement of Crown/Maori relationships. Ignore it at our peril.
NAct1st: The books are bad! Let’s save money! A thousand or three here and a thousand or three there will add up on no time!
Also NAct1st: let’s give the poor struggling landlords money! A billion dollars sounds reasonable!
Ffs.
Yeah we don't need landlords, we don't need people taking risk to supply rentals to people who need housing.
As much as im for restoring the English names on government agencies, this is just pure dickbaggery - especially given they're going to give tax cuts to the riches!
More distraction and deflection from a Government that's out of control. As soon as National is on the back foot they throw our some race baiting red meat out to change the topic and create a wedge between New Zealanders. It's terrible, but don't let things like this distract you from the real damage this lot is about to do to the economy.
Think your mortgage rates are already sky high? Just wait for when the dual mandate for the Reserve Bank is removed. Interest rates will go higher and more people will lose their jobs in the government's battle against inflation.
And this is the very first bit of legislation the Government is going to pass.
Helping with the cost of living crisis by... cutting people's pay?
They have no intention to help with the cost of living crisis. They have every intention to use it as a way to create a worse public service, and much worse conditions for workers in general.
But yet you'll no doubt also complain that they're not investing enough into education, police and health. If you're paying people to know Te Reo, you're not paying for someone's operation or for teacher aide time for children with learning difficulties. If you're not prepared to accept tradeoffs then the money needs to be borrowed on the credit cards of your grandchildren.
That's complete nonsense. Public service is not a zero sum effort.
It's also complete nonsense because they aren't doing these things to fund other things, they are doing it to reintroduce tax loop holes for landlords, give tax breaks to their donors etc.
The money actually needs to be borrowed to give tax breaks to some of the people who need it the least, so you are just plain wrong ...
That's literally the argument between the left vs right that has been going on for the last 200 years so I'm not sure why people are surprised.
- Left: Higher taxes and better government services.
- Right: Lower taxes and worse government services.
We know historically speaking when you go too far left you strip individuality and if you go too far right you cause poor people to get the short end of the stick. The answer to what is 'best' is somewhere in the middle.
Except it's not the same argument. And it's definitely not just about taxes. The main divide historically is between workers and owners of capital.
For example, expanding the ERA does literally nothing to curtail individuality, and does not change the tax landscape at all. What it does do is give workers better opportunities and better conditions.
At the same time, you need to improve public services to a point where the rights granted under said legislation are protected (e.g, inspectorate capacity at MBIE). But again, that doesn't necessarily imply a greater tax burden, nor does it imply a reduction personal freedom.
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5mo
i.e. subsidies for landlords
What the Government is paying paying people in allowances to learn/use/not use Te Reo isn't going into health, schools, police. You can't have it both ways.
More like isn't going to tax cuts so us plebs could get that sweet sweet $1 extra a week while health, schools, and police crumble
You complain about them not helping with the cost of living by cutting people's pay....and then complain about them giving people tax cuts to help with the cost of living. Which one is it?
Fuck me this government is backward thinking! Do they want things to be like 1978?
Rewarding public sector workers for fluency in one of our official languages is a good thing. An important thing. A necessary thing. That we have a government that feels the need to rush in rules and regulations that hark back to the old days is very concerning.
Newsflash NACTFirst dickheads, the old days are long gone. You will not get them back. You can not get them back.
Te reo fluency amongst government and public sector workers is a necessary component of improving Maori/pakeha relations. Do you clowns think that passing a number of simplistic we're all equal laws and rules is going to solve our racial/poverty/inequality issues? If you do you're dumber than I thought.
Te reo fluency helps government departments. It is an important and necessary skill. It makes sense to encourage it and reward those who are adept in order to encourage more to become fluent.
It is, simply put, a valuable skill. It is commonplace for workers to be paid extra for desireable skills.
Maate, you're thinking backwards.
Fuck knows why you are mentioning going forward in all your simplistic media soundbites.
100% agree.
An important thing. A necessary thing.
How exactly?
Your post (once you remove the hate and spite) is full of definite statements. "it's important", "it's necessary", but nowhere do you say exactly why.
Having actually worked in the public sector and never once needing to use Te Reo despite having had many a great working relationship and dealing with Maori I'm curious how I managed?
Being able to speak Te Reo or not doesn't make any difference in 99.99% of situations. What does is being helpful and understanding, a good person. If anything, learning Samoan would actually be infinitely more beneficial due to the number of Samoans who don't speak much English.
Never come across a Maori who couldn't speak English though. So maybe it's not "necessary" after all?
If the person sitting next to you at work has a degree they don't use, should they be paid extra for that degree?
Having actually worked in the public sector and never once needing to use Te Reo despite having had many a great working relationship and dealing with Maori I'm curious how I managed?
I’m curious too. I’m maori and work in the public sector and have had many conversations in the workplace pre-empted with statements like (quite politely most of the time) “I don’t speak maori. “ Some people “manage” that way.
Being able to speak Te Reo or not doesn't make any difference in 99.99% of situations.
Absolutely true. If you’re not the person who speaks in Te Reo Maori.
Never come across a Maori who couldn't speak English though.
Yeah..umm..there’s a reason for that. Some of the stories I’ve heard about how that came to be are pretty horrific.
It was something that had flourished under Labour, National and various coalitions
Anyone saying it’s not this government is plain wrong. It is just this government.
How can this be seen as anything other than anti-Māori?
I see it as pro-sensible use of taxpayer money. Every dollar that you're spending for people to know Te Reo is a dollar that isn't being spent on health or education or law and order. National campaigned on reducing Government spending and were voted in on that basis. As long as they continue to make cuts across the board - and not just ones related to Maori - aren't you cherry picking a single instance here?
not just ones related to Maori - aren't you cherry picking a single instance here?
That’s what the article is about.
This government are removing te reo Māori from public life after successive governments made it part of it. It’s clearly ideological, not a matter of cost cutting.
I note landlords are getting an extra $1 billion but this rather small sum associated with Māori is being targeted.
But hey, it’s what people like yourself voted for, I guess. I do worry about the lasting division this regressive government will cause however.
How is ensuring equal pay among everyone regardless of language ability anti Māori?🤣
Multiple plans to remove te reo Māori from public life, having been an ingrained part of government for decades. Plans to question the validity of the Treaty.
So just because something has been in place for a long time you shouldn't question why it is there?
No..some people are questioning why it’s not going to be there.
It's sad that small relatively insignificant positive decisions like this will be used to prop up the image of national while they continue to ruin the country through meaningful cuts to social services and tax breaks for the already wealthy.
Calling this a positive decision is wild.
These don’t exist on the collective of the biggest public sector employer I’m aware of… feels almost like virtue signalling by the triumvirate tbh.
Man, they're just going totally mask off with their racism and white supremacy.
Not sure that the people from all sorts of cultures that aren't "white" (what's that by the way - English? French? German? Ukrainian? Latvian?) who do important work in the public service would be happy with being discriminated against like this. Why is a Filipina nurse for example, worth hypothetically 3.5k less than her NZ-born colleague of British and Irish descent just because said colleague speaks a language that is spoken fluently by maybe 2% of the population?
Those people who speak additional languages should be compensated for their skills as well. You shouldn't drag down wages for Māori bilingual people just to make those people happier with their wages.
You may well be right that bilingualism should be remunerated if it helps someone do their job.
What people are reacting to is the opposite issue: Maori speakers being paid more (to the exclusion of everyone else) "just because".
Māori has an important place in our culture and society, so should be one of the first languages which get official support and monetary recognition for skills in the public sector, since the public sector has a responsibility to provide services in this language, whereas others aren't mandated by law.
Other languages should be given the same treatment but it makes sense to start with NZ's official languages first. This isn't being paid "just because," and if someone says so they are being incredibly obtuse.
If people genuinely think it’s exclusion and “just because” then they really don’t understand what they’re upset about. How ignorant.
In every case where I've come across this in the work I've been doing over the past few years it was actually a stipend which was given with the express intention that the person would take on additional duties in addition to core business. Things like karakia, liaison with community orgs, feedback on tikanga, translation, casting an eye over documents, or indeed drafting documents. We also usually had the same thing for speakers of other languages who took on other tasks. These skills were in line with core business intentions and they made a point of rewarding people with those skills.
Reading between the lines I'm questioning whether removing these rewards is intended as a measure to walk back core business principles in this space.