Moderator removed post
He moved up my list from 17.2 to 16.9 but that's because no one in the top 16 is currently in the playoffs. He might actually clear 15.5 by the end of the WCF.
Lol I feel you. Just think it's fun to think about. I guess I'm bored.
The dialog surrounding all this is also entertaining – keep thinking out loud. No problem with that.
look i love jokic and denver has been my 2nd team for years but you dont start displacing top 10 guys until your 3rd ring
True. Even if he goes on to win ring #2 and FMVP #2 this year, it still wouldn't be enough of a case to put him in the Top 10 when the Top 12 are most likely the following (not in order):
Michael Jordan
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Kobe Bryant
Shaquille O'Neal
Stephen Curry
Hakeem Olajuwon
But I'd say he's in the Top 15 already if they win the title and he wins FMVP this year. And he's only 29 so he has a ton of time to further build up his resume.
e: ok I'm caving on Hakeem. His 2 titles, 2 FMVP and 1 MVP are less than the others, but his 2 DPOY does put him on the same level as the others.
He's already top 15.
3 MVPs puts him in elite company. The only player with 3 MVPs who isn't a consensus top 10 player is Moses Malone, who is typically rated top 15. Jokic has achieved the same accolades (3 MVP + 1 Championship) in far less time, and has better stats, so I'd put him above Malone.
Hakeem?
That's fair. Just saying I think he's entering the discussion. Barry Sanders never won a ring but that doesn't mean he's not the best running back of all time. Just saying rings might help to overstate or understate a players career. Is Draymond (with 4 rings) a better player than Charles Barkley (with 0)?
In basketball one player means much more for the team. It’s just a need for players in the top 10. Too many great players through history. Who do you think he has surpassed from that list?
compare the suporting casts all those guys played with to get their ring/s to jokic's
User deleted comment
18d
he's also easily one of the greatest defensive players ever
We just saw Jokic drop 40 on the current reigning DPOY.
Okay, what’s Rudy got to do with Dream?
Defense doesn’t matter against Jokic.
But that’s not what we were talking about, dude threw in that Jokic smoked a DPOY bc Hakeem was DPOY but we aren’t saying who would win 1v1.
4x time DPOY
And Jokic is one of the greatest offensive players ever.
Hakeem was great on offense AND defense
jokic is only great on offense
People always say this like it's as simple as 1+1=2, when it's not.
basketball is played on offense and defense man, it really is that simple
Jokic is the best offensive player of this generation and Gobert is the best defender of this generation. But offense is more important than defense to winning games, we all saw that tonight with Jokic vs Gobert.
that's true, but when you're talking about the 5-10 greatest players off all time you're talking about more than just how good a player was offensively
you have to take into consideration things like offensive AND defensive impact, as well as things like accolades (which jokic is on track for but isn't there yet)
he will never be considered the same tier as MJ, LeBron or Kareem because he simply isn't as good a defender as they were, and he never will be
TIL Magic Johnson had a great defensive impact.
People will say offense>defense, which I don't actually agree with. What I will say is that in basketball, the best offensive player on a team has the most influence on a team's overall offense in a game, but for defense is the opposite. Team defense is about your weakest link more than your best defender, especially in the modern NBA. This is why the criticisms of Steph and Jokic's defense hasn't stopped them from winning anything. They're average to above average on defense and can be a part of a very good defense because they know how to play within a team's overall defensive concept. Not to mention that Jokic is far better on offense than Hakeem, even though I'm higher on Hakeem than 99% of people on planet earth.
You can see this with the Bucks this year, and the 76ers last year. Giannis and Embiid are absolutely incredible individual defenders, but that can only take a team defense so far when you roster is full of guards that look like a deer in the headlights every time they encounter a screen. Defense is half the game, but it's far less individualistic than offense is.
it's really not. TEAM offence and defence are equal, yes, basketball is a zero sum game. INDIVIDUAL offence and defence are not equal. it seems obvious to me because there is only one ball, but I'll try to explain.
think about the term heliocentric offence. everyone knows that this is, it's intuitive.
now think about the term heliocentric defence. you can't, it doesn't exist. even if you're against the best individual defender ever, it's not like he can guard everyone on the court. the ball moves a lot quicker than a human.
it's impossible for a defender to be involved in every play. it's very possible for an attacking player to be involved in every play. it's that simple.
I mean a “heliocentric defender” is just what a good defensive center is. They have far and away the largest responsibility on that end by a mile. Most good defensive centers do impact almost every play even if they’re not directly contesting a shot. You see this with Bam, AD, and Embiid where they can alter the flow of an offense on every play just by being present in a general area.
To be clear I think there’s a very, very strong argument that peak wise Jokic is better than Hakeem, but the two-way player conversation is very important when it comes to centers. Jokic is really the only big guy in these conversations who has the absurd offensive production to compensate for his mediocre to barely decent defense.
Jokic is the greatest offensive player ever
maybe if he maintains this level for a couple more seasons but as of now no, he's not
Spoiler: he will
Jokic will demolish Hakeem. Look what he did to 4x DPOY Rudy Gobert
No he isn’t. It’s fine if you have him there but he’s - fringe top 10, which is where Jokic would be after another ring.
Hakeem is not top 10.
Go back to Fortnite child.
Who over
MJ Bron Kareem Magic Duncan Bird Kobe Russell Wilt Shaq
Is he over
Kobe
Come on now. That’s a 5x champ. Hakeem had to catch Jordan’s baseball years to eke out 2.
5x is a fantastic accomplishment obviously, but he also had some great teams
I’d take Hakeem over Kobe still. Hakeem was drafted no 1 and even Jordan wasn’t mad at that
Hakeem didn't have to catch Jordan out of the league, because he never had a chance to go up against Jordan. Nobody knows who would win a Hakeem vs Jordan series because it never happend. Also Kobe being 5x champ is cool and all but they have the same amount of FMVP, Hakeem never had a teammate like Shaq. Not saying Hakeem is better than Kobe on my list but you're making it seem like there's no way someone could put Hakeem over Kobe when it's relatively close.
Hakeem isn’t top 10. People don’t realize that there are only 10 spots and 14 people can’t be top 10. Who are you taking out of the top if Hakeem is in? Larry Bird? Kobe? Wilt? Shaq? And shut the fuck up with your patronizing tone
Kobe
MVP, DPOY, Chip, FMVP in one season. Crazy
Saying this as biggest jok fan
Yes he is lmao
I was thinking if I should include Hakeem on my post here
https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/1csdc5c/jokic_hes_in_top_10_territory/l448ze4/
But left him out. He feels like a firmly #12 player behind those 11 who I feel like are on a different tier.
I won't fight anyone that says otherwise though. It's just that he isn't "easily" Top 10.
Hakeem's top 10 case definitely relies more on impact over accolades compared to the others. The main idea is that even if he didn't have the multiple MVPs or all that many all-NBA first selections, he probably deserved them in retrospect, and just went underappreciated when compared to his peers at the time (e.g. MVP bias towards winning teams)
Hakeem gets a lot of credit for having his prime and MJ's overlap. He's probably the second best player of the 90s. A lot of MVPs were also handed out to people who probably shouldn't have gotten them because of how people felt about MJ.
I’m taking Hakeem over Curry, but it’s super close so I understand either one
Curry's too high imho.
Nah he’s ahead of Kobe and Curry
Putting Wilt and Russell over Hakeem is ridiculous given the vast competition gap. Hakeem is literally one of 2 players you could draft over Jordan, and most wouldn't call you crazy.
He's also just straight up a better player than Magic, Bird, Kobe, Shaq and Curry.
Jordan, LeBron, Kareem and Duncan are the only players as good or better, imo. Just watch him play, and he's clearly one of the most talented and skilled basketball players on both sides. An offensive savant and THE best defensive player ever.
That's fair. Might be premature to say. Just watching him...wow.
jokic with 3 rings puts him top 5 imo. would have the same amount of rings and mvps as bird
Nah, not top 5. He needs a 3-4 rings for that, because of the 2-way greatness of Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Duncan and Hakeem.
If, hypothetically, the Nuggets win 4 on the trot, with Jokic as the centre piece, how much of a shake up in the top 10 would it do for you? (Serious qb)
And on a scale of 1-10 how much would Shaq have to remodel his house after trashing it?
Rings are overrated. Players like Shaq moved to where rings were easier to get. Curry, Jordan, Hakeem, Joker got rings for the underdog teams that drafted them. Jokers 1 ring in denver is worth more than all Shaqs rings.
miami had zero championships and their best player was like 22 when shaq went there
Huh? Hakeem is clearly top 10, with just 2 rings.
Why?
Jokic, if he wins another ring, would have 2 titles with a pretty good supporting cast, but no fellow all-star, no all-NBA, no DPOY candidates. It's insane how much he carries the team.
No disrespect to Jamal Murray, who is as clutch as it gets, but he's also no Kobe Bryant or D Wade. And Gordon is a very good player and a perfect fit for Jokic, but is he as good as prime Odom?
The point I'm trying to make is, you have to look at rings in context.
User deleted comment
18d
Once again, it doesn't matter. It's such a dumb metric when you don't look at what other players had vs Jokic or any other comparison had on their teams when they won.
"X has more rings" literally offers no context on how they won.
Just think for a second. Let's assume the last 5 years Jokic had a legit all star instead of MPJ taking up cap space. You don't think he would have more than 1?
There’s a difference between top 10 peak and top 10 all time, Jokic is only in one of them rn
Well, is the question about better career or, more simply, who was better at their peak?
He obviously has a long way to go still from a career accomplishments standpoint, in comparison to the best of the best (Jordan, LeBron, Magic, Kareem, Bird, Russell, Duncan, etc etc)
But in terms of who, at their peak, was better than Jokic? This century, I think it’s only LeBron. Beyond that, Jordan, Kareem, and…? I think Jokic right now is basically doing what Magic and Bird did throughout the ‘80s. He’s right there with those guys. To some that’ll sound like an overreaction but again, not talking career accomplishments.
Kobe
Jokic could be 13-14 months away from being in top 3 conversations.
He just makes it all look so easy. Like he's playing keep away with children chasing him up and down the court. People want to talk about rings and MVPs and that's fine but I agree with you that I've never seen anyone play like him and the Federer comparison is apt
It’s real close between Shaq and Joker for the best C I’ve personally seen play
User deleted comment
18d
More skilled, sure
Nah, just better. Shaq could never carry a team to a chip. Jamal Murray is not Kobe.
In the 2000 finals, Shaq averaged a ridiculous 40 points and 17 rebounds per game meanwhile Kobe shit the bed and averaged 16 points on 37% shooting from the field, and you really saying “Shaq could never carry a team to chip”.
Quit with the clown shit my guy.
Lol
You think Shaq scoring twos all game could win anything in the modern NBA? Any team featuring Shaq would be a first round exit from now until the end of time. Basketball is never going backwards. Shaq is a relic, and he was good before players became skilled (better.)
lol
Who let bro cook?
This is how teams had to guard prime Shaq
Teams literally had 7ft players on the roster just to commit 6 fouls on him.
Shaq was also incredibly skilled, he had grace and footwork for his body size, which is what made him so unstoppable.
Jokic is a better shooter and passer, but Shaq within 10ft of the rim was a bucket or foul everytime.
I guess Jokic out here shooting like curry 😂
Lol
Jamal Murray is quite literally on Kobe tier for 1-2 of their rings.
You’ve watched Lebron entire career and you think Jokic is the best player you ever seen???
They're both awesome man. Lebron is either number 1 or 2 all time. I just think it's fun watching someone entering top 10 territory.
Absolutely. I love when you have these players who have high level upside. Giannis is 2021 was in similar conversations.
That’s fine. I’m not even a Lebron fan, but a prime Lebron smokes Jokic in literally every facet of the game.
Not really they are pretty comparable. I would say lebron focused more on scoring but I would still say overall Jokic offensively has the greater impact. Lebron obviously was a much better defender and physical presence, but Jokic the better playmaker and passer.
No they are not. The fact that people even think this is crazy to me. Lebron is a better scorer, playmaker, defender and overall more dominant player than Jokic is.
User deleted comment
18d
This is insane recency bias. Lebron has been passing the ball the way Jokic has for 21 years while scoring 27ppg across different eras. You can see the fatigue right here in this sub, Jokic makes a very good pass and it’s 3k upvotes, Bron makes the same or comparable pass and it’s 400 upvotes 12 hours later.
Jokic is having one of the greatest peaks ever and he’s the best passing big man ever, but to say he’s an outright better playmaker than LeBron is just ridiculous
Generational hater
No he’s not. He has just watched prime Lebron. Trust me it’s genuinely not an insult to be worse at everything than prime Lebron. Most players are.
Jokic is relative to lebron offensively. He’s a worse scorer but better playmaker(sue me). There’s another side to thhim court but lebron doesn’t smoke him in every facet.
Jokic has already done what lebron never could lmfao. Win a chip with no help, in the west no less
Let Jokic play against the 73-9 Warriors and we’ll say
Should he lose countless times in the finals too, lol?
Jamal Murray was averaging 26 and 7 assists in last year's playoffs, the fuck you mean "no help".
Holy cope lmao
Sees Gordon go 27 points on 11/12 FG in Game 4, no "help"
Ah yes bro, renowned all star Aaron Gordon
Yeah Jamal Murray 32 ppg in the ‘23 WCF is no help good god you’re brain dead
Ah yes bro, renowned all star and star player Jamal Murray
Hahahahahahahahahahaha
No help? Bro the nuggets roster last season was insane what do you mean no help
Ah yeah bro so insane. All those all stars and star players! Haha!
Jokic with no help got first rounded by the warriors. He has a phenomenal team around him.
Except they’re all nobodies lmfaoooo. Cope
Jokic's peak which is right now clears peak LeBron
Obviously you’ve never seen peak Lebron. Otherwise, you wouldn’t say something so stupid.
He's already above KD for me.
KD is another player with a huge amount of goat upside. He needs an impressive ring(akin to 2016 lebron) and he’s right there. However, until that happens he’s in a sort of limbo. Jokic is currently greater than him but kd winning another ring would retroactively validate his super team rings for me.
He's the best offensive center of all time at minimum
I guess if you consider Dragan Bender a forward then yes he is.
Dude, I’ve never seen someone else make the Federer comp, but I’ve been thinking that for years. His combination of touch, creativity, vision, and execution is totally unique.
He's above KD.. that's all I have to say.
That’s not even a debate
Too early.
3x MVP 1x Title.
He needs more to get in the Top 10. He can do it for sure, but it’s just too early.
No doubt. A few people have posted their 5 MVP rule. I think he gets that this year with a finals win.
He is in 9-12 Category. (Especially if he wins FMVP this playoffs)
Shares room with Hakeem, Kobe, and Steph.
This is the correct answer. Also, would like to point out that Jokic’s supporting cast is not as Steph’s or Kobe’s
Not there yet, would be with this ring
He will end up top 10 and has a chance at best offensive player of all time
He’s talented enough but you need at least 3-4 rings for top 10.
Hakeem is top 10 with 2 rings
But hes a fringe top 10, alot of people have him like 11/12 which is where Jokic would be with another title.
While i would have Jokic 11/12 with Hakeem if he wins FMVP he hadn't ever played with single all star while i agree that this stat is quite biased towards Jokic most top 10 players had played with multiple all-stars Lebron: Wade,Bosh,Kyrie,Love,AD and even Ilgauskas and Williams were all-stars or litellary even two top 10 players were at the same team Magic+Kareem+ even James Worthy and Shaq+Kobe
Meh, not all rings are created equal. Shaq had Kobe and Wade fit his rings. Steph had KD for two if his.
He’s not top 10 yet. But he doesn’t need to match rings with those guys to vault them
Both statements are true. If Jokic gets 3 rings, he’ll have a serious argument over everyone aside from lebron and mj. There’s nobody else with 3 or more championships as the best player on every team.
Duncan and bird.
I may have worded it weirdly but they weren’t the best players of their team for every ring. That matters a lot to me.
Bird is absolutely the best player on his team for all of his rings. Duncan is the same for at least 4 of his 5 rings (and 2014 can be also debated). Detracting from him for winning one while he's older, while still arguably the most productive player on the team, is just stupid.
Kobe was a second option for 2 out of 3 of his rings with shaq. His first one he averaged like 15 ppg lol
Don’t think you can say that when Shaq was the clear #1 guy on the Lakers 3 peat roster
Yeah but Shaq had Kobe. Imagine if Jokic had Kobe instead of Murray. Jokic in a hypothetical 3peat with Murray would be objectively a much greater feat than Shaq's 3peat.
I think you are both overrating young Kobe and underrating Murray
Also Nuggets supporting cast is better than the Lakers one
Not at all, you (and most people) are sleeping on young Kobe.
In 91 games from 2000-2004 (5 years), when LAL went to 4 out 5 Finals & won 3:
Shaq average: 27 points, 14 rebounds, 3 assists
Kobe average: 26 points, 5 rebounds, 5 assists
In that 5 year span, Kobe made 3 1st Team All NBA’s, 1 2nd Team & 1 3rd Team. He made 4 All Defensive Teams.
“Overrating” is crazy when people and this subreddit specifically underrate Kobe insanely.
The Warriors probably would have won at least one of those two years without KD, so I wouldn’t put much stock in “Steph had KD” when he proved twice in his career he could win a ring without him.
I agree. 1 more ring would have him in fringe top 10 discussions but 2 more would solidify it.
He’s creeping into the top 10 range, he needs more hardware.
Agreed.
Even without getting into any nuiance or longevity stats, everyone with a case for the top 10 has been the best player on multiple championship teams:
MJ- 6 Finals wins, best player on all 6 teams, 6 MVPs
LeBron- 4 Finals wins in 10 appearances, best player on imo. all 4 teams (could argue Bubble AD>
Kareem- 6 Finals wins, best player on 2 of those teams, 6 MVPs
Magic- 5 Finals wins, best player on 4, 3 MVPs
Duncan- 5 Finals wins, best player on 4
Bird- 3 Finals wins, best player on 3, 3 MVPs
Kobe- 5 Finals wins, best player on 2 if not 3 (could argue he played better than Shaq in 02)
Russell- archaic era, but anchored 12 Finals-winning teams and became interior defense prototype, 5 MVPs (albeit the league hated Wilt)
Steph- 4 Finals wins, best player on 2
Shaq- 4 Finals wins, best player on 2 if not 3
Wilt- 2 Finals wins, arguably best player on both (albeit Wilt's case requires more nuaince), 4 MVPs
Hakeem- 2 Finals wins, best player on both
Wilt and Bill don't belong in the top 10. They're both legends, to be sure, but they're basically beyond comparison. There were hardly any teams back then and much of the competition was trades people. If jokic wins finals MVP this year against Boston, I think he vaults Steph, Hakeem, and Kobe, placing him about 7th.
He’s solidly in that 4th tier of players:
T1: MJ/LB/Kareem
T2: Magic/Wilt/Bird
T3: Duncan/Kobe/Shaq
T4: Russell/Hakeem/Steph/Jokic
T1: Mj/Lbj T2: Kareem, magic, bird, Duncan, Kobe, shaq, Russell, wilt T3: Hakeem/Steph/Jokic(if he wins this year)
This might be controversial. I have Kareem cemented at 3, so you could argue he’s in a tier of his own but the gap between him and mj/bron is larger than the gap between him and the rest imo.
I put him up their due to the value a lot of old timers give him….plus the awards, titles, stats, and longevity are pretty damn epic
Not to sound anti-Kareem but a lot of his mvps and stuff came before the Aba merger. He’s absolutely a phenomenal player I just don’t think he did enough pre-magic to put him on the same level as the other 2
You might be right….he was well before my time so I can’t really argue too hard on his behalf
He was playing like 35 years before I was born so it’s the same for me.
Ya, at the end of the day, we’re just lovers of the game giving our opinions. Good chat….cheers
Russell T2
Wilt T3
Kobe T4
Then this is correct
It’s hard for me to place Russell that high due to him being a career 44% FG shooter in an era when bigs put up ridiculous numbers. Which is why I have Wilt over him. Kobe is most definitely a T3 player. As a Spurs fan I saw first hand how great he was. If Kobe didn’t exists, My Duncan would be the GOAT.
Russell was able to have the impact on the other side tho and massively reduced the numbers and percentages that all the big men where able to put up when they faced him. Also I know it wasn’t in the best era but at some point 11 rings has to count for something.
Oh no doubt…he’s 1000% the greatest winner in sports history, but I like imagining top players in different eras….hes the only one in the consensus top 10 who wouldn’t dominate in all eras….imho
You guys are going to hate me but I think Dirk with this 2011 playoff run and championship is above Jokic even if he wins this year. Dirk ran through one of the most competitive playoff seasons in history, loaded blazers, defending championship Lakers (swept them) and then the OKC big 3 to go on and beat the big 3 Miami Heat.
Look, I know you guys don't like it but Jokic has never faced teams like that. Jokic is clearly benefiting from being in a league where all rosters went small and the big guys left aren't all star caliber level. I mean, Wemby just beat Jokic in a pivotal game at the end of the season that Denver wanted to win badly for seeding.
The top Centers of all time faced top Centers of all time, and I know Jokic can only play who is in front of him but if he does that he needs to do a lot more than just 2 rings to be in that conversation.
I also think it's fair to point out that Aaron Gordon is not a normal role player, Jamal Murray isn't just a sidekick, KCP is one of the best perimeter defenders and clutch shooters in the game and MPJ is a freak athlete that has an unguardable shot. The spacing all of those guys provide gives Jokic so much room to operate and still on smaller defenders or unskilled guys that either don't have the size like AD or are just dumb like Gobert who isn't a good post up defender (there is a reason AD always cooks him) he's more of a shot blocker and deterrent against guards.
I just think that there is a lot to unpack when going over the top 10 players or even Centers in history and the nuisances and situational differences between eras is important. Recency bias is crazy in this sub from day to day let alone between eras. One day we are all praising Luka and the next day we are all clowning him, just a week ago everyone called Jokic a choker and now you guys are trying to crown him top 10 because he beat a 22 year old Edwards with guys who can't shoot around him.
I'm not trying to change anyone's mind but just offering my perspective on things, that's all. Think about what Bill Russell did, you can call it a weak era but that's taking so much away from 11 rings. Go watch the Clayton Crowley video on Russell and think about the gap between what he did and what Jokic has done.
I also want to highlight the job David Adelman has done for this offense and how defensively locked in every one around Jokic, it makes Jokic and Murray's job so much easier because they have all the energy to keep the offense going. Jokic is doing a lot of work for the Nuggets but the things that are happening off ball are going unnoticed, there is no way to send help on Jokic because everyone he passes out to scores. It's not like big men back in the day had that privilege, they had to get it done through double and triple teams or they lost. Jokic has a lob threat from hell in Gordon, it's absurd how many options he has with this team and it's a clear advantage over his competitors.
Nah, I appreciate high level comments like this. Thank you for the analysis.
I think that not much credit goes to that team because people don't want to take away from Jokic but that team is the reason they are winning. Jokic is the centerpiece but the options that team has on both ends is what really impresses me. I also think that they practice all their sets more than any team I have ever seen. David Adelman has had to cement all those sets into everyone of those starters brains because no one makes a mistake around Jokic. It's the most disciplined roster and the reason why Jokic has his stats. Think about how many times you have seen post players pass out to open guys only for them to miss? That shit just doesn't happen on this Denver team, it's a testament to reps this team has had together and the focus on perfecting all those plays.
I think that most players are a product of the teams they are on. See Jordan before Phil and Pippen. See San Antonio without Popp or Duncan. Steph with Mark Jackson, before Kerr? Things need to align, for sure. Jokic feels special.
And you're also right, something that Jokic also said...it takes a few years for a championship team to gel.
He’s not top 10 until he has at least a combination of 5 MVPs/rings. He’s got 4 which puts him just on the outside.
Top 10 Players should have 5 MVPs (League + Finals), Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Magic, Wilt, Bill, Bird, Duncan, 2 Wildcards.
4 MVPs = Moses, Jokic, Shaq
He should already have 5 tbf, but pity got in the way.
He will surely end with more than 5.
You can't give him credit for stuff he hasn't done yet.
You're right! Not trying to. Just thinking that he will likely get that 5th MVP (finals or regular season). We shall see!
Steph has a combo of 6 and still is a hair outside of most top 10s
Most people use the lack of FMVPs to diminish Curry’s case. Personally I don’t,
1) Jordan
2) LeBron
3) Kareem
4) Duncan
5) Russell
6) Bird
7) Magic
8) Shaq
9) Kobe
10) Curry
11) Wilt
12) Hakeem
13) Jokic
14) Durant
15) Robertson
That's fair. This series looks like Denver's to lose now. I don't see them losing any series this year tbh. That puts him in there which is basically what I was saying fam. But I hear you.
Simple answer: YES
That's what I'm saying
User deleted comment
18d
He was never a fraud to people with a brain lol
You think nuggets fans called in a fraud a week ago? Otherwise this makes no sense
Be for real man 😂
He only has 1 chip, mvps are cool, but legacies are built on championships.
Can't argue, I'm not a big tennis fan, but I always compare him to Lionel Messi, plays at his own pace, assists as important as shots, and a remarkable IQ for the game.
1 more ring and he’s in the top 10 conversation(fringe), 2 more and he’s in top 3 conversations, 3 more and he’s consensus top 3. Most of the top 10 players fall within a tier, excluding Jordan and lebron.
Stats, personal accolades and pure dominance he would be at the top 10. The only thing holding him back is the number title (which he could very well get his 2nd this season).
Agreed. He gets ring 2 and fmvp 2 he's solidly in the discussion.
No one is in the top 10 with one ring. Hakeem for awhile was the only one with 2 but he’s been pushed out by Duncan/kobe
Jokic is amazing, but let’s not get carried away yet. I’d want to see more longevity at this level (3-4 more years) and perhaps another championship before putting him top 15. Not saying it won’t happen, or even that it’s unlikely (i feel it IS likely).
I feel that! I can feel his career bubbling into top 10 that's all I was sayin.
Name 15 players better than Joke.
Jordan Lebron Kareem Wilt Bird Magic Russell Shaq Hakeem Duncan Curry Kobe KD … then maybe West and Robertson…
If Jokic wins it all this year, I’d definitely have him somewhere around 13 or so on this list. If he sustains this level over the next few years (again, likely), he can near top 10. A third ring definitely makes the case to crack it.
Peak yes, career not quite yet. Most of the top 10 guys were THAT guy when they came into the league which contributed to their status, Jokic took several years to develop into the monster he is now
Depends on the rest of his career. He definitely could get into the top 10 with a few more titles
In ability maybe, but I'm not doing this until he has multiple championships. A dynasty and he's in my top 5.
0/10 bait.
Top ten center? MJ asked. Because if you're saying top ten center than yeah he's probably a top ten center.
Probably a top 10 center? Okay. Can't take this seriously. Next.
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18d
That’s quite a take
These takes are nuts 😂
He'll lose again these playoffs and then we'll all agree he's the weakest 3x MVP ever, and lucky MPJ dragged his ass to a ring
The nuggets would barely be a play-in team without Jokic. Instead, they are championship favorites. The only other center that could make that kind of impact would be Wilt. The numbers are all-time GOAT territory, but like....he's also winning titles now.
That’s also quite a take
how is his impact on defense?
Just wait until his career is over, we don't have to try to figure out someone's historical ranking after every playoff game