I was going through my kids books and realized we have a trend. These are among their favorites. If this is what indoctrination looks like, then consider it done. I am starting them young. Thought I would share this with you all.
Whoa, I didn’t think of it like that. I hate reading it but the girls love it. The message I take from it is quite literal - the tree loves us so much that it’ll give everything and the old man is an idiot for valuing other things.
Giving Tree is messed up, agreed.
Try this alternate ending, "The Tree Who Set Healthy Boundaries":
Honestly, though, me too. Obviously, it's not all of the reason, but also damn, it really can give off that kind of message for sure.
There’s an art installation near me at a gallery that is basically this exact message displayed with the giving tree
I think many kids books are open to interpretation by you and your kid. I don't think many kids books are "bad". I think it's interesting to ask your kid what they think and tell them what you think. There are a lot of different issues with "giving" kids books though. Mostly because of hyper individualism in our society and, well, capitalism. People have a hard time writing books that promote giving. I'd rather see more books about the characters coming together to help others as a community instead of usual "sacrificial lamb" style you get in Giving Tree or Rainbow Fish.
Farmer duck is the best I can think of. All the farm animals kick the farmer off the farm because he isn't doing any work and making the duck do all his work instead. I like the "come together" to help stories better because that's how that actually changes in the real world. Plus kids like going "quack!" when you read it lol
The individual ones all fall for the same failure of "if I just become super rich I can help everyone" or "I need to live in poverty so others can be happy".
Absolutely! Thank you for taking the time to explain this so eloquently :)
In that case I recommend “Our tree named Steve”. The tree still comes down in the end, but it is treated like a part of the family and respected in its own right without anthropomorphism the whole way through. A much better model for healthy empathetic relationships (even towards beings unlike yourself) all around.
I also have an issue with the Bible, but not for indoctrination reasons. In Braiding Sweet grass, Robin Wall Kimmerer writes of how religion can shape how we care for the planet.
In the Bible, the planet is depicted as Not Eden. It is a space we tolerate on a way to something better. Why would you put in a lot of effort into maintaining and improving the planetary version of a dorm room?
Many indigenous religions depict earth as the greatest gift to humans. It IS our Eden. So there is a moral imperative to care for it and value all the interconnecting pieces.
Also in the story of creation it literally says that first plants & animals were created and then man was created to “reign over all created before him”. There are 100% Christians out there who are extremely passionate about the environment (I know many of them) but it’s easy to use the Bible as an excuse for wrongdoing (as indigenous people know well).
Imma point you in the direction of the author Daniel Quinn.🙂👍
We understand that we need to shepherd the Earth and try to make like Eden. We’re taking that message literally.
....but why the Bible?
Excellent question. We teach our kids that Jesus loved and took care of everyone. And we are to be shepherds of the Earth. And that’s what we do. There are dozens of Christians like us! Dozens!
I mean, the other stuff is great, but the bible is quite literally indoctrination. It also doesn't seem to fit the rest of the theme here.
Lmfao right? The irony…
Man has dominion over everything else to use and abuse as ne pleases, or some such?
What?
Genesis 1:26-31. There is no shortage of real messed up stuff in there
I like to point you to Genesis 2:15
The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it.
We were tasked to just take care of a garden, not a lawn, but yes, it's said that mankind was to rule over all creatures. However, those verses you cite do not say to use and abuse. Only to rule over these creatures, almost as to say "oversee them," as a caretaker of a garden should do when animals are included within a gardeners responsibility.
The bible is very literal and should be read as such. To rule over things does not necessarily mean to abuse those things. We are to care for the garden, not to destroy it.
which version should we be translating literally? there are many different versions.
When all the bible is translated to their appropriate versions, they should be written in such a way where they are literal. Like, god literally made the world. Moses literally turned a river to blood. Jesus literally died, was buried for three days and rose again. Whether it be latin, greek or english, each verse should mean the same thing from one language to the next.
There are comparisons and semblances made, but it is written as such.
Not one version should be adding or removing additional material, otherwise it's not a bible but another form a literature.
seems unreliable 🤔
Believe me, I felt the same way, as I thought "How can I trust the hand of man who's so easily corruptible?"
But, the way I overcame that thought is by thinking, "God will always provide a way." Meaning that these books that I may be grabbing could be corrupt, but it can't be so corrupted that it would prevent new followers from going to Jesus and ultimately their Father, God.
Otherwise we are all just damned from the very start and no true way would have been provided for those wandering and seeking for the truth.
Then I started comparing the different bible languages, from greek to english, using google translate as much as possible, and found the bibles had matched for all the verses that were in question. At times I thought "A-ha! I found a removed verse!" To only find it was either re-arranged grammatically or the chapter was simply renamed. In the end, I couldn't actually prove there was any corruptions from the oldest bible version available online, to what I had physically in my hands.
Edit: In the end of it all, after all these years, decades, centuries, if the bible has really remained unchanged for that long. It really had to be the work of God to prevent the corruptible hand of man from altering it further.
Hasn’t the Bible been altered and changed hundreds of times if not more? That’s just off the top of my head so pardon me if I am misremembering.
We’re tree hugging non-bigoted Christians. Sounds unusually crazy, right? Because the current image of a Christian is terrible! Jesus didn’t stutter when he said to love one another. Also the Bible teaches to shepherd the Earth. We’re taking that and running with it.
Still literally indoctrination.
Perhaps hold back on the religion until they're old enough to make an informed decision for themselves.
Yeah, like, I love 91% of this post, so I upvoted, but OP jokingly saying "indoctrination", but yet having "The Illustrated Children's Bible" 🤨
I'll rescind my 9% disapproval, OP, if you throw in an Illustrated Koran, Torah, and er, idk what equivalents might exist for Eastern religions. And something secular humanist if any such childrens' illustrated whatever materials exist. But all that dilutes the other stuff...might be easier to do like the guy above is suggesting.
Gonna start this with saying I'm an atheist that grew up super religious. Like homeschooled religious, no play on the "Sabbath" kinda thing. Because of that I'd have agreed with you 100% in my early 20s.
Having said that, I think this is too aggressive. Religious people share their religion with their kids. All religions have some good stories when they're adapted for kids.
I think the indoctrination is how parents choose to push it on their kids and more importantly the really mentally draining stuff like teaching about how "someone died because you sin". Like that's damaging. At that age your basically traumatizing your kids to make them think they killed someone for not cleaning their room.
Sharing a story about animals on a boat because it comes from your religion is fine. I'd say most of the damaging indoctrination comes in mid to late childhood though and if you're telling others kids their friends are going to hell because they play baseball on Saturdays then you're just absolutely being abusive.
There are good a bad ways to share your religion with your kid even if you're not sharing other religions. It's great to share other beliefs but I think that is never going to go well. The parent very likely knows nothing about them and will be extremely biased without even knowing it.
There are plenty of religious people that are just sharing nice stories and beliefs with their kids and absolutely don't push them into it being the focus of their life. Letting them decide and learn things as they get older.
Indeed 🖤
Bruh, seriously? If the family’s foundational values are revolved around religion, then why tf would they withhold sharing those values with their children? Is your atheism really that offended?
They never said they were atheist. That's you jumping to conclusions. Perhaps they believe that developing your own faith is more important and true to god than shoving it down someone's throat from a young age until they "believe."
Thank you. Children are the most impressionable and least sceptical. By all means make their childhood magical, but don't use it as a shim to prime them for religious belief (indoctrination). The absolute respect you can pay children is giving them room to be children. Plenty of time and opportunity as young adults to inspect their own values and come to their own conclusions. The fear, guilt, shame and servitude to authority doesn't have to start early.
100% agreed. Much of my anxiety comes from the constant fear of "being watched," and it has never really gone away. That was caused almost entirely by being raised religious. I can't imagine how different I would be if I hadn't been.
How is letting them read a book shoving it down their throat lmao? Is giving my 8 year old kid a book about dinosaurs also “shoving down their throat”? Believe it or not, one cannot be religious without advocating their religiosity.
Believe it or not, one cannot be religious without advocating their religiosity.
That sounds like something I'd read on /r/atheism, if i hadn't unsubscribed to it over a decade ago, due to toxic takes like this.
I think most of the atheists unsubscribed too when they banned memes.
Bruh, christianity is literally child abuse and stunts brain development.
As an atheist, hard disagree on such a generalized statement. I don't agree with my parents' religion, but I happily say they practice the most non-toxic form of it I've ever seen. Pretty sure I turned out alright.
I am glad to hear that! However, you're an outlier. That doesn't make my statement any less true. It is indoctrination. It is brainwashing. Fundamentalism discourages any logical reasoning or scientific evidence that challenges its scripture, making it inherently maladaptive. Fundamentalist ideologies can be thought of as mental parasites. A parasite does not usually kill the host it inhabits, as it is critically dependent on it for survival. Instead, it feeds off it and changes its behavior in ways that benefit its own existence. Christian fundamentalism is a parasitic ideology that inserts itself into the brain, commanding individuals to act and think in a certain way—a rigid way that is intolerant to competing ideas. We know that religious fundamentalism is strongly correlated with what psychologists and neuroscientists call “magical thinking,” which refers to making connections between actions and events when no such connections exist in reality. Especially as a child, you are in your most formative years. It is quite literally scientifically proven that it stunts brain development in the pre frontal cortex. Religion of any kind should never be forced on anyone, but especially not a child. It is child abuse. In lore ways than one.
Honestly, my parents didn't force any religion on me. They just kinda went with what they did, and hoped I'd follow along. The absolute worst they did was "kinda be disappointed" when I didn't believe in god, etc. By and large, the biggest deterrent between myself and religion was growing up in West Texas. My parents, nah, I still hold that they are saints. But youth groups full of shitty, bullying kids, that's what showed me that while my parents might actually take the concept of being "christ-like" seriously, most of the shitheads out there do not. And honestly, I don't feel like I'm in the minority. I, personally, know a fair handful of friends, also raised-christian atheists, who feel similarly. "hey, these values don't need to be tied to a relgious identity because they should be universal".
In general, honestly, for anyone, even if only one parent of any child in a more conservative area sees this. Get. The. Fuck. Out. My parent's openness did not directly translate to my own, and the intolerance I learned from classmates and churchmates took YEARS to unlearn. DO NOT think your own values will directly transpose to your children, the regional ones run a SERIOUS RISK of overriding them.
Shamefully, high school atmosphere instilled a fair number of LGBTQ-phobic feelings in me that took till late college to truly dissipate. Despite my parents having none of these feelings. It's not just familial it's regional.
https://www.peterbrownstudio.com/books/the-curious-garden/
https://www.macbarnett.com/extra-yarn
https://www.juliadonaldson.co.uk/books/picture-books/the-snail-and-the-whale/
I feel like these 3 would work in your collection in the broader themes of the sub
I recommend getting some National Geographic kids magazines. I had them as a kid and I loved them.
Tossing the just ask weekly reader series with Christopher the mouse onto that pile for kids still learning to sound things out.
You missed the ABSOLUTE best anti-lawn children’s book there is. On Meadowview Street by Henry Cole. A little girl doesn't want her dad to mow over a little flower in her front yard and he respects her wishes, she eventually turns her yard into a full blown meadow teeming with life. It’s absolutely amazing. While you're at it, check out ALL of Henry Cole’s picture books. He’s a biologist, science teacher, and amazing artist who captures nature so beautifully.
Also, One Small Place in a Tree by Barbara Brenner is golden. I highly recommend it.
Wow! Thank you. I’ll certainly look for those books. My kids’ books are all secondhand. So this collection built itself.
Hurray for second hand! I often utilize Thriftbooks when I want a specific book. (It has a copy of On Meadowview Street for around $4 right now)
Check out The Big Orange Splot. It’s an indictment of cookie cutter neighborhoods kids will love.
Sounds dope!
Who pooped in the park! My kids and I love that book!!
Yes! The jelly beans pique their appetite right before bed. Haha
This is the most “Reddit” thread I’ve ever seen. First of all, if that was a Quran or a Vedas everyone here would have kept their opinions to themselves.
Second of all, letting a kid read a Bible doesn’t take away their ability to make decisions for themselves in the future, and id venture to say a lot of those who have a problem with your Children’s Bible probably had one as kid…and then turned away from Christianity…proving my point.
Raise your kids however you want, and (no surprise) don’t get your parenting tips from Reddit.
Thank you for the solidarity. If I had replied individually to negative comments about the Bible asking if they would have had the same opinion if it was the Quran, Torah, or the Dharma, I would have been downvoted to oblivion. So I just scrolled past.
Can people in the comments shut up? Like dude, I’m not even Christian, but religious people are gonna share their religion with their kids.
Love your book choices! I grew up on National Geographic, and it was so fun to wait for the mailman to come deliver them each month. Definitely recommend!
I know everyone is hating on you but I had the illustrated children’s bible when I was younger and I loved it! Grew up to be a proud agnostic but I still go to church just because everybody there is really nice. If you’re the kind of Christian who doesn’t use religion as an excuse to hate any group of people, I don’t see a problem with it.
Thank you for not beating down my faith. It’s refreshing to see some grace.
Love Oliver Jeffers
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As an adult I dislike the message of the giving tree.. it taught me that I have to give up myself or do things for people that hurt me to be loved. I know this isn't the general consensus, but I saw the cover and I thought "yeah maybe this is part of why I put up with abusive partners"