Friedman/Dhaliwal almost certain Lindholm will not be a Canuck next season. Are you still happy with the assets the Canucks gave up to get him?
DISCUSSIONKuzmenko didn't have negative value though. You're making him sound like a pure cap dump.
he was not worth his contract in his 2nd year, he seemed lost in Tok's system
I agree about Kuzmenko and Tocchet, but he was still an excellent goal scorer. We will be happy to get someone on Petey's wing, that's close to Kuzmenko for anywhere around 5 million.
My point was simply that Kuzmenko is not a negative value asset in the equation despite his 5.5 million salary for 1 remaining year.
The bigger argument that I’ve seen online is the draft picks. People are complaining that the Canucks have no depth because of all the draft picks they trade away. They gave away 2 for Lindholm including a first.
Kuzmenko was 100% a cap dump that needed to happen to I don’t think anyone would argue they point (as much as we all love his personality)
But those picks are included partly because of the cost of said cap dump. Those picks aren't all for Lindy.
That’s very true. I think it was worth it for sure. But it’s interesting hearing both sides of it. And of course with hindsight it’s easy to say now that people would do something differently.
They can find depth anywhere. What they’re really missing with losing their 2nds is those revelational elite players that will be cost controlled on an ELC and a bridge for 5+ years.
you need to look at tangible assets, I dont pay much attention to the 4th, we gave up a late first in a year we were buyers and sitting atop the league in points, we gave up an offensive Dman prospect and to be fair hes improved but wasnt drafted with much pedegree... factor in getting rid of kuzzys money for this upcoming season and this deal was fair, not a major win for either team.
Forgot to add in case anyone can’t remember the deal:
To Vancouver: Lindholm
To Calgary: Kuzmenko, a first-round pick and a conditional fourth-round selection in the 2024 NHL Draft, and defenseman prospects Hunter Brzustewicz and Joni Jurmo.
Steeep price. And yes, we are all evaluated on results.
The condition of that conditional pick was if Vancouver made it to the WCF, the Flames would get a 3rd round pick instead of 4th round. So it remains a 4th round pick.
Given this, yes. Bruz wasn't gonna sign. Jurmo may be a top 6 at peak, The 4th (praying to god) won't be a major loss, and Kuzy as much as I loved him wasn't doing Great with tochett and trading him cleared up cap space.
If we didn't have Lindholm, we might have been swept in these playoffs. Winning a round is *huge* towards growth.
And we were at the cusp of advancing. Imagine Boeser instead of Mik on that 1st period 1 on 1
Also the final 10 minutes push. He's proven so good in those situations.
I mean it would've been nice to have Demko play more than 1 game.
And we were at the cusp of advancing. Imagine Boeser instead of Mik on that 1st period 1 on 1.
I said the same thing...boesser would have netted that 100%
We unloaded a 5.5 million dollar salary in Kuzmenko who was performing terribly in Vancouver. Good for him to be doing better in Calgary but still was a -8 with 25 points in 29 games.
We would be sitting with 20 million in Cap space right now to sign 1 less guy if Kuz was still on the books.
I am ok with the salary dump.
Yes, let's not forget that the price was to get Lindholm was also to get Calgary to take Kuzy's 5.5 Mill with no salary retention off the books
Wish they had just waited to sign Kuzmenko last season or traded him at the deadline
My biggest issue was the team turning Kuzmenko from a massive asset to a guy they paid to get rid of. They should've never have extended him once they were set in Tocchett as head coach. Anyone could've seen how that would've worked out. Kuzmenko should've been traded before his value tanked.
The Canucks have never been a "sell high" team. Occasionally we do buy low though.
Well this is some massive hindsight is 20/20 thinking.
lol glad you said it. SpectreFire must have a crystal ball.
lol he was almost a ppg player with 39 goals. The writing was pretty much on the wall we should have traded him.
The bigger issue is the 2 draft picks including a first rounder. I don’t think anyone would argue Kuzys cap dump. But is 2 draft picks worth a few months of a player? At least that’s the big argument I’m seeing online in regards to this news. Lots of people have different views it’s been fun to read.
This year's pick is going to be #27 IIRC and at the deadline Friedman was saying most teams were valuing this year's mid first round very poorly (it's a weak draft).
An essential Second and Fourth isn't a bad group of assets to depart from for the value Lindholm brought. I mean we used to have a GM that gave away our 2nds like scratchy lotteries
It’s not like you can’t get good players late in the 1st… but the most likely scenario is you’re drafting the next Brendan Gaunce/Noah Juulsen.
Thank you, this will help me sleep at night.
In order to get cheap players that make a difference you pretty much need to do it through the draft
I'm pretty suspect about relying on that as a crutch - hard to say Florida & Vegas were/are driven by cheap drafted players
lol scratchy lotteries. How true. Very good points about the draft picks though. And I think a lot of what I’m seeing online is the “in hindsight” mentality - now we are out so they want those picks back sort of thing.
Looks like 28th overall on Cap friendly. Even better.
I'd say it looks really good up to maybe #12-14, and then it drops like a rock after that. No way we were getting a great first rounder. I'm fine with it. Have my fantasy draft strategy all lined up, got a bunch of picks in the first round. I'm trading every pick I have after #8 or so probably.
If you want to look at Lindholm as a pure rental, maybe not. That said, he was an important factor in helping us get as far as we did. If we'd been a bit healthier, we likely would've had a legit shot at the cup. I think it's a risk worth taking in the position that we were in 9/10 times.
Are they actually issues? The first is a 28th pick and the other is a 4th round pick no? I don't see why that's an issue.
The only thing off actual value lost was Bruz.
But Bruz was a 3rd rounder. Picks are valuable when they turn into tradeable assets or cheap cost controlled talent to help the team
But is 2 draft picks worth a few months of a player?
On a contending team? Absolutely yes. We gave up a late 1st and 4th and were on the cusp of making it to the Conference final with Lindholm being a major contributor in the post season. I'd say that was picks well spent.
Yea, the salary given out to our two Russians looked great and then terrible in a short period of time. Woulda been nice to have Dickensen and the third back instead of Mik as well.
I think some people are looking at this as a all-or-nothing move. We are not in the same position as Edmonton's "Cup or bust" motto. It's okay, if not beneficial, to make moves for a deep run even if you don't win it all. This gives the core group post-season experience. Something they desperately needed. As Tocchet said in his exit interview, the guys got a taste and they want more now.
Very few teams go from bottom of the league to a Cup Champion in a calendar year. Before Tampa won it all, (twice), they were swept. It takes time to build a winner. It starts with having the management believe in the guys and then adding soldiers to bolster the roster. This gives everyone confidence. I am a huge advocate of sports psychology and moves like this make Hughes, Miller, Boeser, Demko and Pettersson know they are winners and they will continue building around them.
So yes, I hope at every deadline while the core 5 is in their prime, we continue to buy at the trade deadline.
You make a good point, the Canucks havent had 5 first over alls in how many years and how many top 10s on top of that. The team has only made 3 playoff appearances in 10 years. Thats not a bad number at all. Like your saying there is a lot to be done. Alvin and Rutherford did a good money ball run this year. I hope they figure out the recipe to go further in the playoffs and be more consistant for a few years and bring home some silverware.
Yep well worth it. If Demko doesn’t get hurt I think there’s a very legitimate chance the Canucks go all the way. When you have those opportunities you need to jump on them. Even if this team is good for the next years they still may not see a better opportunity to win and you can’t be afraid to take those opportunities when they come.
That plus Boeser not suffering from his blood clot and Pettersson playing well below expectations. This was a great year and really fun to watch.
Petey was also injured.
If Demko didn’t get injured and/or Boeser didn’t get a freak blood clot I genuinely think we’d be in the finals right now. We had the roster, and management correctly targeted the player we needed for a run, we just had bad injury luck
Obviously with hindsight it would nice to have Brzustewicz and our first round pick still but you aren’t going to win if you don’t take a swing. Plus us proving that we have the core that can be contenders should let us attract other replacements who want to win
Boeser freak incident. Demko out. Pettersson pretty much non existent. If those things dont happen then yeah. We could be in the finals. But. Great times find a way through that.
It’s definitely a hindsight type situation for sure. A lot of people online are all upset now because of the assets (the picks especially) that were given up - but of course if we made it to the finals I don’t think anyone would be saying the same things right now.
but the price was justified at the time because lindholm was thought to be someone who was more than just a rental, someone we could sign long term
If Drai, McDavid, and Kane were fully healthy maybe we wouldn't be though? If Dallas was healthy probably not.
We paid a big price to roll the dice this year. I think it was worth it but I also think it may have been our best shot already taken.
Kane is not really a factor and McDavid/Drai are as healthy as one can be in the post season.
That being said, if we had our full roster, i suspect it would be close but I'm not on board with the belief that we were close in the EDM series. We had one massive GM5 but GM6/7 only looked close on the scoreboards.
Kanes been injured for a while, otherwise I'd have expected him to be a decent sized factor as a depth winger for them.
Yes but mostly because 1st rounders from pick 20+ aren't that great to begin with. If it was an under 15 pick, I'd feel differently. I also wasn't high on that particular D prospect and felt we sold high (as we should).
100 percent. Brustewicz was a 3rd round pick just 8 months before and his value skyrocketed but he is still a longshot to make it to the NHL. That first round pick is 28th overall which likely isn't a huge loss. And then factor in that Kuzmenko was being healthy scratched and had a 5mil salary for next season so he was a cap dump for us even if he could potentially be effective elsewhere.
The price we paid wasn't very high and we capitalized on moving a prospect at what will likely be his peak value.
Eh I don't know about Bruz, players of his profile that end up near top 10 in OHL scoring are usually locks to make the NHL.
Tony D'Angelo was the closest comparable to him, and he's a legit NHLer.
If you're an unhappy with assets gave up for him, think of how happy it made our core players and improved our visibility as destination for UFAs.
Quinn, Petey and Miller were sick of losing seasons and the pipe was going to burst soon if we didn't do something.
Yes. After that OT goal against Nashville I said the return was 100% worth it for that moment.
I am almost always the "don't make short term moves" guy but he was excellent in the playoffs. I think it was worth it.
If you're trying in the playoffs "for real" you need to add legitimate pieces.
Ultimately due to the OEL buyout cap hit the Canucks have to make big pushes last year and this year.
I don’t think we have the greatest cup chances in the league but given the cap gymnastics cup teams seem to pull. Winning is a $5m disadvantage seems extremely difficult.
So I support the lindholm trade but fuck Benning for putting the team in this situation
A lot of teams have inefficient money on the books though. The OEL cap hit sucks for sure but it's not detrimental.
Look at EDM that has Campbell's cap in the minors and 9mil to the pylon nurse + 2mil dead cap from the Neal buyout. Or Florida that has 4.5mil to Spencer Knight and 1.2mil to the Yandle buyout (it was 5+mil last year and they made the cup final).
The key is to not compound the OEL buyout with more inefficient money (Mikheyev is a problem lol).
Well put, just saw your comment after I posted mine.
Also I'm sure that Dallas isn't thrilled about 15 million or whatever it is for Benn and Seguin.
OEL buyout sucks but isn't the end of the world.
It's actually 19.35million between Benn and Seguin but yes your point stands. I'm sure they're not thrilled about that even though they are still useful NHLers. Key for them is they don't really have another bad contract on the books.
Also Fuck VGK because of the cap circumvention.
There's tons of teams that have 4-5 million drags on their books.
Florida Panthers have a 1.25 million buyout plus 3.3 million over the AHL burriable limit on Spencer Knight.
OEL buyout is not as big of a deal as a lot of fans make it out to be.
His most memorable moment as a Canuck will be that OT goal vs Nashville in Game 4.
Definitely worth it. On top of 13 playoff games for our inexperienced core, getting off kuzmenkos salary for next season is huge as I couldn't see him turning it around.
Yes. Lindholm was one of our top 5, maybe even top 3 players in the playoffs. We don't make it to game 7 in round 2 missing our starting goalie without his offense and defensive play.
A late first, a 4th rounder, Joni who might turn into a 7th Dman and Hunter who's ceiling would always be capped as long as Hughes was on the team was worth the price.
Our core needed playoff experience if they are ever going to accomplish anything as a group. They need the experience of playing meaningful games every other night, need to know how hard it is to win, how tough it is to close out opponents.
Would have loved to go deeper, my personal benchmark for the Lindholm trade when we made it was if we made WCF it'd be a worthwhile trade. Months later and weeks after being eliminated, I still think it was a worthwhile trade despite not making it to WCF.
we got off kuzmenkos bad money in that deal, people need to keep this in miind
This is prime grounds for the the sunk cost fallacy to take place. Obviously we didn't win a Cup or make it super deep, but you've gotta take your chances when you feel you have a shot. I don't really care much about the deal in the past--I'm concerned with what we do now going forward.
Realistically no one could have predicted Demko to get injured and Boeser to have that freak blood clot. I like offloading Kuz's contract, and I think the calculus at that time from JR and PAllvin was that with Lindholm (who if we recall, had an injured wrist down the stretch) would help the Canucks get to a WCF at least, hence the conditions for the 4th rounder.
So much of the playoffs comes down to who stays healthy and I am okay with that spin of the roulette wheel they took to get the best available centre at that time.
i don’t get why people think it’s all okay, the price we gave up for him just to let him walk. kuzy, a 1st, and a bluechip A level prospect is significant value for a rental. some might say kuzy is a cap dump, but we all knew he’d bounce back anyways
I didn't love the trade at the time because Kuzmenko was a really important part of the power play, and we know how the pp was immediately after he left. Watch some highlights. He was a very sharp, crisp passer and did a lot to gain time and room for the others. He wasn't playing well in Tocchet's system 5v5, but the team was still pretty strong defensively and outscoring. And of course now, I don't love the trade at all... Lindholm was great in the playoffs, but for longer-term thinking, I'd have to say I think it's a slight error on the management's part. The management decisions have mostly been really good so far though, so I don't think it's the end of the world... It's going to be interesting to see what they do with the room, if he doesn't sign...
This season with Van, Kuz had 3 powerplay goals and 4 assists over 43 games.
I think a big part of why things didn’t work out this season was, he wasn’t able to outscore his defensive problems.
Good point, but I just really liked the way he kept the puck alive and got quick passes through to quinn or EP on the pp, so he maybe wasn't getting primary points, but I think they missed the sharpness after he was gone. Just watched some Kuz highlights to see examples and I'm just not sure you give up on a guy that dynamic offensively unless it's a sure thing Lindholm is going to sign...
Got to pay to play
Management saw ways to improve for the post season and pulled the trigger
you have to reward the guys for such a great season, you can't let them go to the playoffs without some help - meatwagon24
It wasn't his fault the cup run hit a brick wall. And it wasn't Edmonton that was the wall. It was the oldest talking point in the book: the team as a whole lacked playoff experience.
The Lindholm rental was still a good gamble though. He was awesome. If only we at least got to round 3 all the goals Kuzmenko is going to score against us wouldn't hurt as much, because that pain will be immediate.
yes, but he'll most definitely be scoring them in 6-3 Calgary losses.
True.
I think the bet was reasonable given how hot we looked in the first half.
It was a overpay, but I like they at least attempted something to take a run at the cup. I've seen Vancouver spend way too many years not making trades like this and getting nowhere.
Its very likely that a chunk of the roster wont be returning next season and we will have to retool the team again.
I'm not sold on either. I think it was a bit of an overpayment, but it's tough to say it wasn't worth it with some of his big moments in the playoffs.
I view the 1st as a sweetener for Kuzy's additional year at 5m. The Canucks gained equity on their third with Brzu, but he was never getting the opportunity to qb PP1.
I think they pushed some chips in too early and now have less assets in the window but time will tell.
I don't expect them to have a 1st round pick or any decent prospects in the next few years.
This was a good year to "go for it" though as Demko, Petterson, Hughes, were alll on "bargain" contracts. If you were to choose between last year and next season to "Push the chips in" it had to be last year given the cap situation.
Peteys contract goes up next season, same with hronek, and whichever UFA's the canucks decidee to keep. Also the OEL buyout gets jacked up
It’s also the 28th pick, so it doesn’t sting too much to lose that pick. It’s not like this was a bubble team that traded a 1st just to get in.
Maybe....but did it really feel like this was a legit cup contending team? It didn't to me, it seemed like a team on the rise that was going to hit their window in 1-2 seasons.
Can really only go by regular season though, and based on that this team was definately in contention. Cant lead the league the whole way and not be a contender imo. I know its ancient history but if Demko was healthy, Boesser, Petterson etc I think the canucks easily dispatch the Oilers. Based on the information at the time I don't think it was too early
Well it took us missing our Vezina goalie, our theoretical best forward playing like garbage and our top goalscorer missing game 7 for the team that's currently in the SCF to beat us...
I'd say that's awfully close to cup contending - a crazy amount of shit went wrong for us lol
I mean they made it to game 7 of the 2nd round despite missing arguably their MVP and dealing with several other crippling injuries. They showed this season that they can hang with anyone. Given the number of key FAs, it made sense to go for it. Also, the assets were a late first, a cap dump (Kuzmenko would have had minimal trade value after his play to start the season), and Bruz, really.
With Demko they absolutely were. Would have surely avoided the trip back to NSH for Game 6.
Or Cats sweep the Oilers and the “West was weak this year” narrative prevails. And it wouldn’t have mattered.
Yes. We took the team that made it to the finals without one off the best goaltenders in the leauge and with our star player having problems with his knee.
I am in the same boat. I get the logic as other posters have pointed out with the cap situation but to me, it just didn't feel like the right time. This is a young team where Petterson, Hughes and Demko have minimal playoff experience. History shows it is very rare for a Stanley Cup winner to win it all on their first go around. A majority of all Cup winners and hell, even NBA winners have taken their knocks multiple years prior to their first title. I get that history gets made and trends are meant to be broken. But I just hope this run which don't get me wrong was awesome, doesn't hurt us in the future.
I voted "too much". I get that he contributed hugely during the playoffs, but we gave up a 1st rounder, Kuz, and two young D-men. That's a *huge* price for a rental player.
I think Kuzmenko is the part that makes it a bit tough to judge.
I viewed him as a distressed asset/cap-dump so being able to move his salary was a big positive for Vancouver in the deal.
Yeah. Also, he didn't really fit into Tocchet's system so something had to give.
Still a lot, especially since it was a trade with a divisional rival.
I think it was a bit of a unique opportunity where Kuz was a negative value asset to Vancouver, but for a team like Calgary that can be more patient with him it’s low-key a smart bet.
Jurmo will never make the NHL. I don't understand why people keep ignoring this.
The 1st rounder is a low pick in a weak draft.
We wanted to move Kuz.
The only thing off value lost was Bruz.
It would've been a lot more palatable if they made the Conference Final (beating Edmonton would've made it worth it), but that's always the risk you take with these types of trades. It's just as likely that the futures they traded end up being nothing at the NHL level anyways. Knowing Canuck luck though the 1st round pick is going to turn into some stud for Calgary.
If Petey can play how he played the first half of the season and everyone else plays as good we could make the second round again. Just depends who we keep and don’t keep as well as sign and how they gel.
I get wanting to stay positive about our team, but during the Benning-era there was a similar "good vibes only" crowd that cheered on every decision. Even the OEL trade at the time elicited a not insignificant number of people were happy with the move .
Letting Kuzmenko resign, rather than selling high on him, was poor asset management. If Lindholm doesn't resign, we effectively moved his contract for a 1st and Brzustewicz is a steep price. You can't just look at the trade itself, but the opportunity cost of moving these assets. What other deals did the Canucks have on the table at that time—where else could that 1st have gone?
The only silver lining is that while the assets are gone, the cap space is there. We can turn a bad situation into a better one by being smart with it this off-season.
To be fair, it would have been known as a good trade if we won the Stanley Cup. Too bad Demko got injured. Shoulda, coulda, woulda, right? Seriously, this was our time. I swear, this city is cursed with that orca and current ownership.
p.s. Kuzemenko is going to be a star.
I’m okay with it. It also freed up Kuzmenkos cap hit for next year. With him still on the books. We would be fucked
Had Demko not been injured would the Canucks still be playing? Would you have called the price too high if they were?
I like the balls of going for a cup instead of the historical norm of accepting mediocrity
No vote here.
I think it was a slight overpayment but generally speaking I’m okay with the trade value itself… the problem is the timing.
The opportunity cost is now we don’t have our 1st and Hunter B, but we also don’t have those assets to trade for next year or the season after where our peak cup contention window might open (hopefully).
We may not have a 1st or the prospect but think you’re overlooking the fact we gained cap space this season by moving Kuzmenko’s salary. That money could be better spent by acquiring a proven top 6 winger such as Guentzel.
This team with a healthy demko is where the oilers are, maybe even better. Out of what they gave up the only one that hurts is Kuzy, and he didn’t even fit the team. I cannot spell that prospects name but imo CHL defenseman are often offensively developed at the expense of defence, compared to NCAA/euro prospects
On a single instance - Lindholm was a big part of getting to within one game of western finals. It was worth it. Loved the playoff run.
BUT!!!!!
We have the following on the team that we traded a 1st rounder for: JT Miller, Garland, Hronek, Lindholm
And would we of been better off using all those 1st rounders instead of trading for these players? Individually - all have been good trades, but 4 1st rounders on ELCs or 1st extensions with the cap space that affords might be have us in a different place.
At those draft positions, how many would we expect to be producing in the NHL at this point? At most 1, and that would be Dylan Guenther, who is highly unlikely to be as good as JT Miller in his prime and may not have made this roster during his ELC.
Not even just producing at an NHL level you can't wait 5 years for them to figure out how to be star
On average, only 58 players in each draft class year play 200 or more games in the NHL. Approximately 20% of first round picks never play meaningful games in the NHL. Let that sink in.
Significant overpay given it was clear he wasn't going to resign.
In hindsight obviously no since we got eliminated and he isn't going go sign, but otherwise I'm okay with it and it needed to be done or else we would have been playing without a 2C
What people forget is that lindholm was a contingency against petterson not resigning and almost certainly put pressure on petey to resign at a decent number.
Still, it was a big price for lindholm but arguably worth essentially a first and a prospect to get 13 playoff games in.
Is tocchet even a good coach? is this just the new coach bump effect? Will we see the real tocchet next season? Remember Willie D first year? Remember Torts first third of season?
Sorry didn’t watch a single game this year.
Giving up huge assets for Lindholm in the same season we let Petey play on a gimp knee for 5 months without resting him is fundamentally stupid. I’m really unhappy about how the attitude was cup or bust but then you don’t get your “””superstar””” rested and recovered. That’s straight up incongruent.
When was this team ever a cup or bust team? I dont remember anyone having that moment in the media. The team was never penned in to make the playoffs from the start. Even after the ASG the media was still saying the Canucks where a shit team and were best WC2. Thankfully the boys proved them all wrong even going into round 2, sadly not the team falling apart on the way there. I honestly believe we would be playing Florida right now had the team been healthy.
We're trading away next year's first rounder and our 4th best prospect and a flawed but talented winger for 3 months of a guy and it's not a swing at the cup? Next year we have to sign like half the roster to a third of the salary cap with most of them UFA, this fanbase is kidding itself if we didn't just see the org go for it.
Allvin was like "losing that series was very disappointing" for a reason, it was super winnable and the best chance this team is gonna have at the cup for years. Who are they gonna trade at the deadline this year to get better? Think they'll put together a better lineup over the summer straight up? Lol I do love the positivity
I hope they can figure out a deal to keep him. It did make a huge difference. It would be nice to get a whole year from Lindholm but if he wants to get paid then so be it.
That being said i wanted Horvat gone and look where this team went with Miller. Also how many more Stanley Cup rings do you have over Jim Rutherford.
how many more Stanley Cup rings
Jim Rutherford and Patrik Allvin just went for another Stanley Cup ring, that's why they have more than me. That's literally what I'm saying too, they went for it but some big miscues occurred and we didn't even have Petey at 100%, which makes literally no sense to me. I'd give up that division championship, hell even first round home ice, to have Petey at 100% in the playoffs.
No one except Seravalli has said anything about this, but it's insanely illogical Petey would think "I'm at half from my knee" while the org would think "this is our year to spend assets and go for it", and no one would say "we need to let Petey recover". I don't know if it was Petey, the medical staff, or hubris, but I don't know how you think those two things can be rectified.
No one in the organization said this is a Cup or bust year. They’re not delusional.
Keep in mind the Canucks didn’t just get Lindholm.
They also got $5.5m in cap space for 2024-2025, for a player who is likely not part of the winning formula. At least, not Tocchet’s.