Is this true?

3mo

Can't stress this enough, if you are moving to Flanders, LEARN DUTCH. If you already speak French, might be a better idea to stick to Brussels/Wallonie.

ElJepas

3mo

Might be easier to learn Dutch in Flanders...

ModoZ

Belgium

3mo

people say on the internet that the Vlaams Belang people are racist

Well that's because it's indeed the case.

19d

Also moving...this is s very provincial country. Very racist and unequal even when you pay taxes and act as the perfect citizen But racism is systemic and ingrained in the Belgian culture. You're te stuck even when working for an international company because the HR -usually provincial narrow minded ladies with very limited world experience - are filtering, via unrealistic language requirements, regional candidates from internationals with much broader experience snd multicultural awareness. It's not just bias, by requiring Flemish when the company working language is English proficient level/ native, they are adopting a racist and segregating strategy previously applied in South Africa etc. A pity that these same international companies, usually North-american like Fedex, Pharmaceutical, IT, Engineering and Int. Associations, seem not to be aware of these broad practices in Belgium. We all lose in the end! But these companies' reputation shall be affected for decades.

NikosChiroglou

3mo

Do you wish to move specifically to Flanders? If yes, it also highly depends on where in Flanders. For example, in places around Bruxelles like Zaventem, I never found any person who didn't respond to me in French.
Almost the same goes for Gent.
In other places like Hoogstraten (as a visitor), I struggled with finding people understanding French.

19d

but if uou ho to the commune in Zaventem they refuse to speak French or English with foreigners. There are plenty complaints! At least in Brussels the majority of the communes is run by french speaker bourgmaitre! And in Woluwe St Pierre they also speak English at the accueil Foreign services!👏

NikosChiroglou

18d

Yes, I have heard that in Zaventem they don't speak French in the commune. I don't know why. How can they expect everyone to know Dutch in advance when they settle there ?

SomecallmeMichelle

3mo

To be honest that you're worried about sounding like a "left woke" per your own words makes me think that you are farther right than most Flemish people I regularly hang out with.

There's a ton of soft micro aggression, people who look morrocan are sometimes kept an eye on by employees in shops, and there's definitely a tendency by some to cross the streets if you see "them" in a group but no overly violent or "hardline racist" in day to day interactions.

Stick with English until you know enough Dutch to talk. Prove that you're making an effort to learn the language, which will be frustrating because people hear your broken dutch and switch to english, but making an effort is appreciated.

Medium-Star3295

3mo

Don’t move to Flanders if you want to use your French, live around Brussels or in Wallonia. I’m white and English. do I find the Flemish racist? Well no not overtly. But start talking to them and it might come out. Many will invariably bring up immigration and how much they dislike it. And they are xenophobic. If you get into an argument with anyone — for example, service people and or someone being a dickhead. It will come out. “Go back to the UK you bitch” has been shouted at me a few times. in both cases it was because I told Flemish workmen to stop parking in front of my driveway. i’ve also had disputes with my neighbors, who seem to think because they are Flemish, and I am not, that they get to tell me what to do with my house and garden. The stories I could tell you about the Stad and issues around residence cards etc etc are in the hundreds. Everyone I know despises civil servants and the dumbest most cunty Belgians seem to have these jobs and NEVER leave. however I’m not going anywhere. i actually love Belgium just don’t let the minority put you off.

19d

Things are starting to become difficult for skilled expats En speakers or natives. Every single job ad asks as requirement Dutch/ NL Even when the working language of the foreign company based in Belgium is English! Clever HR strategy to engage only Flemish people, even if these may not be the best candidates or fit nor possess fantastic social and multicultural skills - often the case once they tend to be quite provincial.

Cuberdon

3mo

are they racist toward walloons tho?

Qazahar

3mo

Yes

Cuberdon

3mo

but why?

3mo

Because politic parties + media needs their business to be done.

Politics: It's easier to point out to your neighbours and foreigners instead of fixing the root cause of your issues.

Media: sells more when using cliché and xenophobia.

3mo

For example with media: if you look at security stats, it gets better year after year but still people feels more and more insecure because the media always describes things in the worst way possible.

It doesn't sell to say that "criminality goes down, everything is fine!" but if you say "200 burglaries per 10000 citizen in city X", it sells a lot more by itself.

Fear controls people's mind.

19d

They are provincial. It's a trait that reflects their past and history of isolation and poverty. Wallonia used to be the rich region. French will continue to be spoken in Brussels because of the European institutions. English is and will be the 1st language of business in Belgium. Requesting as mandatory the Flemish language for a job that requires only English, is a political way to implement a segregation and racist view that will impact residents and citizens at a social level.Hence this employment segregation measure is meant to protect the regional flemish labor market, making this region richer and more developed in opposition to Wallonia and Brussels, notably registering more foreigner workers that have weaker opportunities in terms if job stability (precarious contracts) and less protected socially - hence this is true also for European Union workers that have a legal status to work and reside.

Cuberdon

19d

yes I know, Flemish dutch is less a mean of communication than a tool to gatekeep their community. Learning dutch is not enough.

-1

3mo

There's no such thing as a Walloon race, so no.

Cuberdon

3mo

yes but it doesn't matter, if the racist believes there is.

3mo

The word you're looking for is discrimination.

maxledaron

3mo

"there's no such thing as human races, therefore there's no racism"

3mo

The word you're looking for is discrimination.

Belgian Fries

3mo

There isn't a "black race", "white race" or "arab race" either. Does that mean racism doesn't exist? No. Learn about context.

-1

3mo

Learn about what the word 'racism' means. Using it in this context is derogatory to real victims of racism. The correct word here would be discrimination.

Belgian Fries

3mo

real victims of racism

which, according to you, do not exist, for there are no races within humans

-2

3mo

That's not what I said. The term racism is generally applied to discrimination based on membership of an ethnic group. There's no consensus whether or not Walloons and Flemings are different ethnic groups. What I'm saying is that the term racism should be reserved for the serious and systemic discrimination ethnic minorities face by a majority of another ethnic group. Using terms as racism in the context of the comment I replied to, makes light of the hardships real victims of racism have to endure.

Ok_Cranberry3698

3mo

A lot of people vote Vlaams Belang for other reasons than racism. Even immigrants are voting for them. It's just a anti-vote against the politics in Belgium for many people because Vlaams Belang will NEVER be allowed to participate in parliament or government. No other political party in Belgium wants to cooperate with Vlaams Belang. I'm from Antwerp and we're known as very multicultural people.

Unable_Exam_5985

3mo

Many people predict a NVA/VB coalition to happen this year on the regional level. It is a bit ignorant to think it will never happen. They are extremely close in achieving power. Mark my words

Ok_Cranberry3698

3mo

Maybe I'm naive but Bart De Wever won't allow them in a coalition.

Belgian Fries

3mo

If he cares about plausible deniability, he won't. Idk how long that will last though. The dog will catch the car someday.

Belgian Fries

3mo

Perhaps but most people still vote for them out of hatred/anger. It's not the party of stable minded people.

19d

polarisation

TheCrankasaurus

3mo

Vlaams Belanger supporters are racist. They are also ~10% of the population. Belgium is full of welcoming people. It is a good place to live!

Rheabae

3mo

Is that why they got 25% of the votes last election?

maxledaron

3mo

25% of the flemish votes, so 10% of the population

3mo

Where do you get that statistic from? Last time I checked, voting was mandatory in Belgium and people not going were a small minority.

Belgian Fries

3mo

...flemish aren't all of belgians...

3mo

What's your point?

3mo

You have racists, sexists, xenophobes and homophobes in every single country in the world. If only 10% of Belgians are racist it's a pretty good track record, globally speaking.

Significant_Room_412

3mo

I know many people of Moroccan decent that are Vlaams Belangers

Everybody is fed up with the insane immigration levels,

We need to close the gate.like in Danmark immediately, and then work on other more important issues such as inequality, housing, climate change,...

19d

but that won't happen because the EC and European Parliament decide on that topic, not Fedasil and never a nazi political party. In the end, you ll get asylum seekers and hatred those that are non-ethnic Belgians! And with luck, Brussels says definitely goodbye to Flanders once it is the region where all EU democratic institutions are based, NATO command as well, embassies and NGOs.Also, along with English it is French that comes out as mandatory language! Imposing Flanders to the rest of Belgium may have a catastrophic outcome. Chosing fanatics over people with discernment is dangerous! I believe that voting is an act of faith to ensure the greatest good for future generations and this can only be achieved with moderate leaders, humanists!

3mo

“I might sound like a left woke or something even though I'm not but, people say on the internet that the Vlaams Belang people are racist. Is this true?

I mean, I wouldn't mind if you guys were”

This means that political party and its voters is racist, it doesn’t mean the people of Belgium are racist though. I didn’t want there to be confusion.

However as someone who moved to Belgium to live in Flanders’s region I learnt as much Dutch as possible before I moved and continued learning when here. To integrate with a country you should use one of the national languages spoken by the people whom live in your area.

FrenkenTinoToTheMino

3mo

I'm a white girl coming from the Netherlands and moved to Vlaanderen about a year ago. In the beginning alot of Dutch people were telling me stories about racism towards Dutch people in Belgium. I just let it past and didn't let it ruin my decision to moving to Belgium. When i just moved to Belgium it did came to my mind the stories that i heard. It made me scared to even talk in the supermarket because everybody would know i'm Dutch because of my accent. After a while i just let it past and spoke to some people here and it made me feel loved and welcomed. One advice from me, don't let the stories build up in your head. If youre planning to move to Belgium in a 'non criminal way' dont worry to much tho and start living the life you're have in mind. Good luck with you're decision!

Exciting-Ad-7077

3mo

it’s called xenophobia not racism

Goldenmonkey5566

Antwerpen

3mo

In the beginning alot of Dutch people were telling me stories about racism towards Dutch people in Belgium

Imagine thinking the "Dutch" are a race...

3mo

When people say "racism" they mostly mean "xenophobia".

Isn't it obvious?

3mo

Now that's helpful, thanks a lot!

Oost-Vlaanderen

3mo

Well, i can't say they'renot racist...

Whatever you do, don't speak french in Flanders

3mo

That's only really an issue if you expect the Flemish to speak French to you. Happens to me pretty often that someone talks to me in French, I'll reply something like 'Nederlands? English?' and they'll just repeat what they were saying in French but louder. That won't make anyone any friends in Flanders.

Oost-Vlaanderen

3mo

I'll just say "je ne parle pas francais" or just straight up 🤷‍♂️

my french isn't good enough anyway but even if it was my answer would still be the same to anyone who doesn't even bother asking wheter i even speak french at all

3mo

Even that has gotten me the 'repeat question but louder' reply. Absolutely terrible.

Killaneson

3mo

Funnily (or sadly) enough, I've been on the other end of that. Being French-speaking, I have, a few times, tried to use my incomplete knowledge of Flemish in Flanders to try and form a question (for something a little more complex than just bying groceries). Each time, I got an answer I couldn't really understand, due to both my own incomplete knowledge, and also the gap between the algemene nederlands I've been taught at school and the way people actually talk. I had to resort to the good old "sorry ik heb niet begrepen". At this point, considering my accent, my lackluster sentences and my confused look, it is impossible to not realize that Flemish is not my first language.

Each time I've been hit with a "repeat answer but louder".

It didn't happen often, but those few failed communication attempts destroyed my confidence and my eagerness to use my (flawed) knowledge of Dutch, and caused me to resort to English first when In Flanders. Now I roleplay as a tourist, it seems easier for everyone; less embarassing for me and less annoying for the person I speak to.

3mo

That sucks. I suppose it's nice to know that it's not just a unidirectional issue.

If it's worth anything, I always appreciate any effort to speak Dutch. I'd rather someone speak my language poorly but making attempts to improve than that it disappears entirely over the next generation or two.

....But it's also true that e.g. at work the de facto language with French-speaking colleagues does tend to be English, regardless of their willingness to learn Dutch.

Oost-Vlaanderen

3mo

See, i could forgive an american or a brit for that sort of shit because english is defacto the international communication language but any francophone who does it cleary is either super chauvinistic or delusional

3mo

They're delusional.

English, Spanish and French are the most spoken languages in the world. Speaking only French, you can get your way in a lot of countries. Moreover, a lot of Vlaams speak French (at least more speak French than Waloons speaking Dutch) which spread the idea that it could work.

Those people just stuck at speaking any other language and interact in the only way they can think of to make it better. 🤷

Key_Development_115

3mo

Except in Knokke 😉

Oost-Vlaanderen

3mo

Hmm, right, knokke is usually filled with posh francophones during the vacation periods after all

karen_jd

3mo

I think the biggest issue most people have is that a lot of the “vreemdelingen” don’t adapt to our cultures at all. Speaking the local language (french or dutch based on where you live) will make a huge difference.

In my town we have a polish family who’s here now for almost a decade. They speaks dutch very well and people like them. But we also have Portuguese who don’t even care to talk dutch or get involved in the community. No one has anything good to say about them.

It makes a big difference on how open you are to adapt.

That is of course very different if you plan to live in a bigger city

retronax

3mo

You don't need dutch to move to belgium if you go live in a french speaking region, althought it's still useful to know. Vlaams Belang are indeed very much racist but at this point, every european country has their racist party, it's inescapable.

Yes, some people might be racist towards you, but again, it's impossible to find a place in Europe or the US where you won't find people who are racist towards black people. I take 0 issue with legal immigration personally, but I'm a leftist and also waloon so it doesn't really matter I suppose.

3mo

Ouais jpense que ce sera mieux pour moi de vivre en Wallonie. En tout cas j'espère qu'ils sont mieux la-bàs qu'en Flandres.

retronax

3mo

N'oublie pas qu'en territoire francophone, il y a aussi Bruxelles. Je ne saurais pas te dire lequel est le mieux, mais ce n'est pas un secret que la Wallonie se démerde moins bien économiquement que la Flandre.

3mo

J'ai entendu parlé de ça, j'ai des amis dans la Province du Luxembourg qui m'ont dit la même chose. Mais bon, la vie sera quand même mieux que la ou je vis actuellement malgré les taxes absurdes mdrr

MyOldNameSucked

West-Vlaanderen

3mo

How exactly is Belgium going to make your life better than it is wherever you currently live? Do you think your particular skillset will land you a lucrative job here? Or is the job you are looking to get easier to get in Belgium than where you currently live? Or are you hoping to get a handout?

3mo

I'll live and work there as an Electrical Engineer. I asked those questions because I'm planning to live and have a stable life there, I am pretty sure that if I was looking for a handout, I wouldn't even care about the racism and all. And yes, not only is the job easier to get in Belgium than where I am from, the income is so much better, more than 3 times the amount I earn here, the work conditions are much better and the belgian healthcare system is very good, which compared to where I am from is close to non-existent. I am not looking for handouts, I am not looking for any sort of loophole or any of that matter, just work hard and give my future children a better life.

ScrappyFlappyFriday

-8

3mo

They are not racist! They are saying that foreigners should behave according to our culture. And I agree! Don't come here going 100% our culture claiming that we have racist tendancies. Have respect for values and norms and we don't give a sht you are here. We might even befriend you! Oh my God... who would have ever thought well behavior lead to that.

spymole1

-1

3mo

To force someone to behave according to your wishes is the description of racism.

Don_Frika_Del_Prima

Limburg

3mo

To expect someone to adjust to the country they're moving to isn't tho. (not that I agree with the rant above you cuz he def is racist)

ScrappyFlappyFriday

3mo

You know jack sht bout me idiot! So stop pretending that you know someone by a couple words! You knucklehead.

belgium-ModTeam

3mo

Rule 1) No personal attacks or insults to other users.

This includes, but is not limited to,

Flaming...
Insults…
Provocation...
Stalking and harassment...

3mo

I just wanted to see the VB's perspective and how they are. I'd be dumb if I just listened to others claiming that the supporters are racist and then call them that too. I want to see both sides and have my own opinion of it before moving to the Flanders region. If it happens that I move there, that is.

Unable_Exam_5985

3mo

Funny thing is that which values and norms are expected depend very very much of the person. Nationalists keep hitting the same nail, but will never tell what these values actually are. You know why? Because if they would, they would split up their imagined community because of disagreements over these

-4

3mo

I mean, I wouldn't mind if you guys were, there might be a plausible reason since there are a lot of illegal immigrants that do a lot of dumb shit

So you know that there is "a lot of illegal immigrants" doing "a lot of dumb shit"?

And you got the figures from where?

If you being a "black dude migrant" have this type of ideas, can you imagine what a VBer has?

3mo

It's that bad, isn't it?

3mo

You have those ideas based on what? give me some of your sources, man, so I can understand your thoughts better. So far, those thoughts are pretty similar to the racists VB that you are fearing...

-1

3mo

It's everywhere on Twitter man...and some articles on some websites. The thing is that they are biased since they are from the opposite party, the democrats. But I don't just want to hear from them, I want to hear the other side. From the VB side so that I have an opinion. Now when it comes to illegal immigrants, you can't deny it, they are there, just like in France, Germany and some other countries. Some people don't like to hear it but it is true though.

3mo

It's everywhere on Twitter man...and some articles on some websites.

Exactly. The racism and hate speech is everywhere. You keep with those "objective" sources and go listen to VB, who have the very same racists arguments that you have. Congrats!

-1

3mo

Dude, I'm going to a country which is on the other side of the world. I'll be alone there man, I am a minority where I'm from and will be a minority there too. And the thing is because of the crimes those people do, people will look at me differently too. The same thing happens where I live. They see a black man and they think that I'm a thug or something. And it's not just the VB talking about it. I am far from being a racist, I even asked if the VB supporters and people from Flanders are racists before I move there. I have to think about my future and all the factors that may affect it. Just because there are illegal immigrants causing trouble and that there are countless acts of crime and there's me stating the facts doesn't mean that I am racist, why would you say such a thing?

Unable_Exam_5985

3mo

Everywhere you have people who cause trouble. let us not stigmatise people without legal residency permits.

3mo

If you keep repeating racist statements like "there are lots of illegal immigrants causing trouble and crime" then people would think that you are a racist.

As many racists, you may think that your "facts" linking migration with crime are real and not racists stuff read in the internet.

It is up to you, but I cannot discuss with someone who is based "on twitter".

Bye.

-2

3mo

So everything is false then? Those guys don't commit crimes, with carjacking, rape, petty thefts and so on? Twitter isn't the only place to talk about it like I said. Besides this wasn't even my worry in the first place. Twitter isn't the only place where I get my information, though it is one of the places where free speech seems to be allowed. And last thing, just because one does not agree with the other, doesn't mean that he or she is racist. I really wish we could've talked more.

3mo

I’d highly recommend leaving X. It’s full of bigots and fake news ✌️

Nimmegator

-2

3mo

Not all of them obviously.

-15

3mo

All ima say is this. My work crew has been here for 1 week. 2 people got roofied and luckily got saved by someone who noticed something was wrong and took care of them, 1 person got brutally and maliciously beaten to a pulp and mugged for everything he had including his shoes. 1 person got his backpack slickly stolen with all of his electronic possessions in it. 1 person was tackled by 3 belgium cops and interrogated for running to catch an uber. They searched him and let him go, with absolutely no apology for physically assaulting him. It hasn’t even been a full week. Currently on day 6. These people really don’t like foreigners. I’d move to somewhere better if I were you.

Significant_Room_412

3mo

Most aren't racist, but are just very angry about the whole world wanting to move here...

Our parents/ grandparents worked very hard to create a great country here, and we have historically always been overpopulated,

But now the population explosion seems to be out of control, so people are understandably angry about that...

It causes traffic jams everywhere, more regulation and high housing prices

RogerBernards

3mo

The irony of simultaneously being worried about encountering racism from the rightwing and being afraid of being perceived as a left woke. Lmao.

Yes, Vlaams Belang is racist. Their main political point is stopping immigrants, especially non-white ones. They're a far right party with roots going back to Nazi collaborators. They're also the most popular party in the Flanders, not the majority, but definitely a significant chunk of the population.

3mo

Well the woke left calls you racist just because you don't agree with them on everything, but I know that there are actual racists and it seems that VB seems to look like it. I wouldn't mind if they were republicans but oh well. I guess the Wallons region is the safe bet plus I speak French anyway.

Belgian Fries

3mo

Yes. Vlaams Belang is racist (and also funded by Putin like all alt right parties). It's the MAGA of Belgium.

It's not all of Flanders though.

Edit: They hate black people too fyi. Tokens get spend. Having a common enemy won't grant you their love.

3mo

I thought Putin was a left communist. And isn't MAGA republican? What got me to go on reddit is that the Vlaams Belang party are actual nationalists which got me really concerned. Thanks for your opinion and perspective.

Belgian Fries

3mo

Fascism is right-wing by definition. Putin is a dictator and a fascist. He hates democracy, progress and freedom. That's why he gives a lot of money to parties that cause national instability, all over Europe and the US.

Also, communism? In today's Russia? Have you not heard about Russian oligarchs?