[SPOILERS EXTENDED] Was tywin a good hand or is he overated
EXTENDEDYet, ironically, many unknowingly recall him fondly, when they think about good Aerys times.
Well compared to Aerys...
Yeah I think this is the issue, he essentially sacrificed political progress wich could bring long-term stability in order to gain support of the nobility and thus, stability in the short term.
20 years is short?
Compared to 200 yes
Do we even know what the reforms for the smallfolk were???
Cap his administration was decent to the small folk if a bumbler could prefer The time of King Aerys.
Both. He was good, and he is overrated.
He was lucky to serve during a peaceful time, right after the last Blackfyre pretender had been killed. There were no external or internal threats to deal with for many years. But he did a competent job.
A big liability, though, was his ego. He always put the interests of his family before the interests of the king. Allowing his men to claim that he was the one really ruling the realm, making his disagreements with Aerys public, his obsession with Cersei becoming queen... And of course, the fact that he was willing to storm the walls of Duskendale in spite of Aerys being a prisoner puts a big question mark to his loyalty.
And of course, the fact that he was willing to storm the walls of Duskendale in spite of Aerys being a prisoner puts a big question mark to his loyalty.
Arguably the best thing he could do for the realm was get Aerys killed and crown Rhaegar. Didn't work out sadly because of Big Balls Barristan .
No one knew that Aerys would become so damn mad sure at the time he was a dick but he was not mad
I think the signs were showing even before Duskendale. Aerys was consumed with jealousy, playing a game of "let's do the opposite of whatever Tywin says because I hate him but also don't let him resign", not to mention his paranoia. When his son died he had the wet nurse beheaded, then changed his mind and had his mistress tortured to death along with her entire family, then changed his mind again and decided it was because he hadn't respected his marital vows and would remain true to his wife from then on
Baristan Selmy himself said that Aerys was mad. Just his mad lapses happened more often after the Defiance of Duskendale
In CK3 terms, Aerys’ traits were Arrogant, Fickle, Eccentric, and Tough Warrior, and he ended up getting Lunatic during Duskendale from the 1% event that fires when imprisoned and tortured.
I the short term, yes. But if you allow those who are meant to serve the king knowingly send him to his death, it kind of undermines the entire political system. Which would be fine, if Tywin did not already undermine the basic framework for popular sovereignty that Aegon was setting up.
Yes, Tywin was very good. And it's not him saying it, it's everyone who was around during that time saying it. See, Ilyn Payne.
Compare Tywin to all the other people that tried to be Hand under Aerys. They literally all ended up dead or exiled. Tywin was Hand to the most paranoid, cruel king possible and managed to have the realm be in peace for almost the whole time.
Also, Aerys wanted to build a second wall. Build a marble replica of King's Landing. If you think Robert was bad with money, imagine what it would've been like if there wasn't someone like Tywin to stop all of Aerys stupid schemes.
Also, Tywin is a bad person. Two things can be true
Also, Tywin is a bad person. Two things can be true
A very controversial opinion around here.
I wasn't expecting that
All of pre-Duskendale Aerys's "mad" ideas are actually good ideas, funny enough. King's Landing is a literal shithole due to poor urban planning, irrigation in Dorne would improve people's lives there, the Wall has been neglected for 300 years... of course, these things are all expensive, but they're a better use of the crown's tax incomes than just hoarding them (Tywin's fiscal plan) or late stage capitalism over-leveraged speculation diamond hands schemes (Littlefinger's plan) or hookers and blow (Robert's plan).
He’s great if you’re fine with feudal tyrants and murderous despots. He was better than the mad king but that was a low bar.
Tywin is an s-teir player in the game while being the furthest thing from benevolent. Did that make him a good hand? If you're Joffrey and need an s-teir player on your side, yes, maybe. If you're a farmer in the Riverlands, hell no.
Also, I think a message of the story is how Tywin's over the top brutality doesn't actually work long term. Fear keeps people in line but not loyal. Love keeps people loyal. the north remembers
I wouldn’t call him S-tier when he had the richest land in the world. He was basically playing on easy mode
Good in terms of stability, finance, and diplomacy but he was an ass to the smallfolk and repealed a lot of reforms to help them.
In terms of competence and stability during his proper run? He was definitely good from that perspective, at least for the lords.
Tywin is capable, smart and ambitious. No one can question that. His issues lies in that he gets blinded by said ambition and by his insecurities that he does his damnedest to hide. And those can make him irrational if pushed too far and make him lash out.
But as long as he was just allowed to do his job there were no problems. I think that a big reason why he never lashed out seriously against Aerys was because of the power dynamic. Aerys was king and above him in the pecking order. But as soon as Aerys was more or less done as king Tywin took his revenge.
Totally agree. I'd even go so far as to say Tywin earned love for tempering Aerys in a way the following Hands were unable to.
Best hand in the seven kingdoms
It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute with the Braavosi (though without “making the Titan kneel,” to the king’s displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself.
Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef.
The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister’s stewardship —so much so that King Aerys’s endless caprices did not seem so portentous.
By this time, King Aerys had become aware of the widespread belief that he himself was but a hollow gurehead and Tywin Lannister the true master of the Seven Kingdoms
"And to mount a dragon . . . I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us."
Found Pycelle
Guilty
Stannis being impressed by Tywin is the same shit as Jon Snow looking at Jaime and thinking that’s how a king should look, back when he was still in Winterfell.
They both don’t know any better, and if Stannis had seen the way Tywin treats the smallfolk or the gang rape of Tysha, Stannis would’ve gladly burned Tywin alive in front of all King’s Landing. Just because the nobles and the people in power consider Tywin a good ruler doesn’t mean he was one. Book Jon Snow would rip Jaime to shreds if he learned Jaime pushed Bran off the tower.
Stannis being impressed by Tywin is the same shit as Jon Snow looking at Jaime and thinking that’s how a king should look, back when he was still in Winterfell.
They both don’t know any better, and if Stannis had seen the way Tywin treats the smallfolk or the gang rape of Tysha, Stannis would’ve gladly burned Tywin alive in front of all King’s Landing. Just because the nobles and the people in power consider Tywin a good ruler doesn’t mean he was one. Book Jon Snow would rip Jaime to shreds if he learned Jaime pushed Bran off the tower.
You ignore
Best hand in the seven kingdoms
It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute with the Braavosi (though without “making the Titan kneel,” to the king’s displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself.
Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef.
The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister’s stewardship —so much so that King Aerys’s endless caprices did not seem so portentous.
By this time, King Aerys had become aware of the widespread belief that he himself was but a hollow gurehead and Tywin Lannister the true master of the Seven Kingdoms
"
Great points, although when we see him in ASOIAF as hand he certainly isn't the same rational and strong man anymore.
Great points, although when we see him in ASOIAF as hand he certainly isn't the same rational and strong man anymore.
Great points, although when we see him in ASOIAF as hand he certainly isn't the same rational and strong man anymore.
I say he's better
I'm curious of you could elaborate more!! I currently personally disagree, but of course this is based on conjecture, as during his previous rule as hand we have no POVs or books set in that era. In ASOIAF he brought an epic downfall to the Lannister house, in a period of time where you would expect him to have a much easier time to navigate politically as he had solidified his power during the last few decades. Of course the downfall of house lannister was far from his fault, but as someone that was able to balance politically with Aerys, and then consolidate Lannister power under Robert, you would expect more from the greatest ruler? I feel that in ASOIAF we see more hubris, than actual effective leading, and this is what leads to the start of the downfall of the Lannisters.
He was both good and overrated. By all accounts he was a good steward.
The soyjak pendulum has swung in favor of Tywin being comically inept rather than some omnipotent political 5D Chess Player, which isn't true. While he is playing with a handicap (the entire strength of the West), his reputation in universe as skilled commander is present across the board.
his reputation in universe as skilled commander is present across the board.
Incorrect
He was awful
Let's look at the facts shall we
Stafford widely regarded as a idiot was nonetheless promoted to his position as the commander of an army by Tywin, defeated and killed while attempting to carry out Tywin's war plan.
Now let's look at some other commanders
Roose Bolton actually a decent battle commander. GRRM has confirmed that Roose purposefully put himself into a win/win situation.
tywin only won cause again Boltons goal was to distract tywin so robb could save riverrun and Roose made sure that rival houses suffered losses and he achieved both goals
He was defeated by edmure Tully who is definitely not regarded as one of Westeros' better battle commanders; still beat Tywin in the field.
Tywin's largest technical victory would be Blackwater Bay, in which Tyrion did most of the commanding, and Reachmen like Lord Tarly did the rest. The Lannister forces present at the battle were insignificant compared to the Reach forces. They didn't make the difference; only Tywin himself thinks that they did. Garlan Tyrell wearing Renly's armor won far more acclaim than Tywin Lannister.
He was surprised and destroyed by the Ironborn fleet during the Greyjoy rebellion.
Don't get me started on the green folk
Plus he was a mediocre politician
Tywin made no real risky reforms for the realm.. He just kept the status quo which make him popular among the nobility
He was great for the shitsack of a king and the stupid greedy fucks in the high nobility.
As far as for the kingdom and the people? He was a disaster and very overrated
Well it’s the hands job to steer the realm and manage the personality of the king. So Tywin was a horrible hand both times. He left the realm worse than he found it. Ned stark great guy but a terrible hand for other reasons.
Overrated.
Much like Derek Jeter or The Wire, you can be both overrated AND an all-time great.
Depends on the tenure:
First one, he compently gave advice to a terrible ruler.
Second: He actively protected a brutal, vicious tyrant who was a product of incest as he caused war, committed rapes, tortures, and assaults.
So, like, not really good, is he?
(See also Otto Hightower, because George writes three stories 7000 times. )
Vastly overrated.
Stumbled his way through several crises that were fixed by other people (thanks Barristan), laid the groundwork for the next wars, and quit just before they began just so he could join the winning side at the end.
Zero evidence that he did anything competently except the testimony of Lannister bootlicker Pycelle.
It was Tywin Lannister who settled the crown’s dispute with the Braavosi (though without “making the Titan kneel,” to the king’s displeasure), by repaying the monies lent to Jaehaerys II with gold from Casterly Rock, thereby taking the debts upon himself.
Tywin built new roads and repaired old ones, held many splendid tournaments about the realm to the delight of knights and commons both, cultivated trade with the Free Cities, and sternly punished bakers found guilty of adding sawdust to their bread and butchers selling horsemeat as beef.
The realm prospered under Tywin Lannister’s stewardship —so much so that King Aerys’s endless caprices did not seem so portentous.
By this time, King Aerys had become aware of the widespread belief that he himself was but a hollow gurehead and Tywin Lannister the true master of the Seven Kingdoms
"And to mount a dragon . . . I remember the first time my father took me to court, Robert had to hold my hand. I could not have been older than four, which would have made him five or six. We agreed afterward that the king had been as noble as the dragons were fearsome." Stannis snorted. "Years later, our father told us that Aerys had cut himself on the throne that morning, so his Hand had taken his place. It was Tywin Lannister who'd so impressed us."
So Tywin made the trains run on time and he dressed well for court. Clap clap
So Tywin made the trains run on time and he dressed well for court. Clap clap
That's disgenous
If a bumbler could prefer the times of areys tywin must have been decent.
He wasn’t perfect but he was a shrewd and effective political operator who had a good sense for creating a stable government and bring prosperity… He was competent and Aerys made a grave mistake alienating him
He was effective, although mostly in his own interest. This means that a lot of what he accomplished basically made nobility and lannisters stronger.9
He was arguably the "best" hand at using the posistion to further his own legacy, prestige and influence.
If Aerys was more chill, and just let Tywin be the second house of the realm, they would be remembered as a great duo.
Both, I'd say. He was a decent administrator but he's definitely overrated. If he's as unhinged as he is during his second term then he goes down a lot for me. He made too many tyrannical decisions that damage the very fabric of Westeros. Jon Arryn was better IMO without nearly as much compromise on morals.
I feel like Tywin was a competent peacetime hand (better than competent I should say) but excelled when it came to ruthless warfare and “justice.” The biggest example is obviously when JonCon gets schooled on how he could have stopped Robert’s Rebellion before it even started. With Tywin as a loyal Hand, nobody would have dared challenge the Targaryens.
To his house, he is the best hand of the king in the history of Lannisters
I cant really say because GRRM never really details what he did,in fact most actual ruling in the series is in the background and is pretty superficial.
From what i read and GRRM wrote,seems like he was focused on economical development and in estabilish the superiority of the nobility over smallfolk
Competent for sure id say his intelligence cunning is overated because people have charles dances portrayal on their mind. As for what id personally want in a hand absolute loyalty would be my number one concern this disqualifys Tywin, you want either a family member,someone who's birth makes social climbing difficult, or a lord from a minor house who can't project enough power to threaten you. Orys the first hand encapsulate these he's a beloved brother but bastard born. Barth lowborn. Aemond Baelon Viserys 2 breakspear all loyal and competent family.
Tywin is overrated in every aspect
Keep in mind most of what we hear about comes from bias sources
Tywin made no real risky reforms for the realm.. He just kept the status quo which make him popular among the nobility
Pycelle all but sucks Twyin'a little lion in "A World of Ice and Fire." It's Smithers/Mr. Burns levels of toadying.
he was terrible, got rid of the laws favouring the smallfolk that Aegon V implemented.
He was a good hand in the same way Margaret Thatcher was a good prime minister. Good in the sense of "quality", not in the sense of morality.
The author himself confirmed Tywin’s intelligence and competence multiple times. The anti Tywin circlejerk is the stupidest cope the fandom has taken up, and that’s saying something.
The author himself confirmed Tywin’s intelligence and competence multiple times.
He hasn't
The anti Tywin circlejerk is the stupidest cope the fandom has taken up, and that’s saying something.
Or they actually read the books unlike tywins fan boys
They remind me of the people who think think walter white was the hero or that Homelander isn’t that bad
Tywin is one of the best characters to watch on the show because Charles Dance is awesome.
Book readers love Tywin because he's so transparently evil. That's the difference. It's an irony.
Great hand. Just ask Pycelle.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
TYWIN IS A BASTARD MAN
Not to the smallfolk, he revoked the reforms enacted by Aegon V, but many Lords liked him and he was overall a competent hand.