Like, dawg, I'd rather have a girl/guy constantly throwing hints in my face 24/7 365 and me be too dog dick stupid to understand.. than have some little shit constantly hate me and hit me for no reason everyday because she "Liked me".
Kuudere's are just stupid because like.. YOU NEED TO SHOW EMOTION WHEN YOU LOVE SOMEONE. It is how getting into relationships WORK!
It’s not too late to start rizzing up the place with that knowledge of Bionicle lore my friend.
(No seriously, this is to everyone here, there’s always somebody for everyone just by using law of averages.)
That flair hits home lol
I have a friend who swears on BPD chicks.
Having dated one, I can't say he's wrong, but he sure isn't correct.
Guts is the single most attractive man I have ever laid my eyes on. I saw this meme about a year ago which involved Guts picking up a condom and saying it's for his magnum dong. It touched me spiritually. Since that moment, my life has never been truly the same. Sure, I still do lawn bowls on the weekends. I still attend work. But every second I spend away from Guts, is another second I could be spending WITH Guts. I tell my coworkers that the reason I run off to the toilets every 20 minutes is because I have a bad case of diarrhoea, but in reality I'm browsing for pictures of my chunky M&M to furiously masturbate to. I regret nothing, and don't plan on stopping anytime soon. But my friends and family are starting to get suspicious. I've used the same excuse every day for almost 2 years now. They're starting to annoy me. My life is starting to annoy me. I used to admire them, but now all they are to me are disgusting piles of shit stopping me from spending the rest of my life with Guts. My weekends consist of staring at a poster of Guts for 48 hours, then back to hell for another 5 days. I'm getting tired of everyone's bullshit. I need to find Him, so we can grow old and die together. I want to be cremated and my ashes to be mixed with His.
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Just wait until I tell her that the lore reason only water and electricity good bionicles can be female is because the bionicle gods are canonically sexist as a way to mock lego only letting one good guy in every team that gets a toy be a girl
but if it fails, love isn't canon anyways so it doesn't matter 😎
I think tsunderes and kuuderes work best as actual flaws the characters have to work through. A tsundere who is that way more because they struggle to be honest with themself or push others away because they have negative self image can be an interesting character (it helps if we tone back the slapstick violence towards their romantic partner though, that is tired as all get out). Similarly I find the most compelling kuuderes are the ones that genuinely struggle to connect with people and part of that journey is getting more comfortable around others and opening up a little.
However, both are starting points for character development. So the character needs to develop. When done well, I think it can make for an amazing romance because the best romances are character dramas. But when done poorly, that's how we get the over use of the tropes that think that being violent or emotionally closed off is automatically peak waifu design
It's this, 100%.
(We also can't ignore that fiction tends to focus on the beginnings of relationships - it's more dramatic.)
The tsunderes and kuuderes I find charming or cute in fiction are the ones whose behavior is an honest reaction to feelings they don't otherwise know how to handle yet. It's the process of a prickly or standoffish person coming to terms with their feelings and learning how to express them that I find compelling, not the stuck-in-amber-ideal of the standard harem instantiation of "the tsundere" who goes through the motions of "I like you no I HATE YOU" forever.
For example: Toradora isn't perfect, but I do find it charming.
monogatari peak, tsundere actually deals with it
I gotta be honest, Senjougahara doesn't really feel like a tsundere at all. By the time she starts to like Araragi, she's pretty direct with him about it and the only "tsun" we get is light-hearted jabs. All the crazy violence at the start with the staples happened before she really knew him.
I like kuudere because I generally like stoic people. Not to mention it makes their displays of affection all the better, for their rarity (a smile, a blush, etc). Some people just aren't very expressive with their emotions.
Tsundere are trash, tho.
this. also i dont need constant reminders that someone likes me if i already know it
It’s one of those things that for some reason is enjoyable only in fiction. I see it is a microdose of the feeling of the “chase.”
I legitimately do not understand the appeal of “the chase.” Call me crazy, but I’d rather be with someone I can just interact with like a normal person.
The chase is just that point before dating or hooking up haha. It doesn’t mean you can’t interact with them like a normal person. Whether you are chasing them slow and casually, spitting all of the game in the world at a party/bar/social function, or doing whatever non creepy interaction with the goal of some form of relationship, you are chasing them.
Personally I love the chase. Two people testing the waters together is the best. Been in a relationship for over 4 years now and we still joke about our “chase” story.
On that note, I was just thinking how the two tropes are reminiscent of the medieval European "courtly love" genre.
Where the chivalrous man pines, pines, and pines some more for his chaste and pure love who virtuously rejects his initial advances, before being wooed over by renewed demonstrations of the purity and earnestness of his devotion through feats of valor.
I was with someone you could describe as Tsundere (she used the term herself once) for 2.5 years and uhm actually it was just emotionally abusive and fucked me up for a long time, so Do Not Recommend.
I am very sorry to hear about that and hope you are well.
Yeah it was like four years ago and I'm with someone amazing who actually values me now, but I just still find the whole tsundere thing really abrasive. Even as a fantasy "Someone who regularly belittles you or acts like they can't stand your presence" just...sucks? Like its actually really hurtful, why do people think it wouldn't be?
that's played off as funny in more places than Japan
Pepe Le Pew: hello
ex-pardon me?
. Even as a fantasy "Someone who regularly belittles you or acts like they can't stand your presence" just...sucks?
A tsundere can also just be a girl who constantly denies that she's blushing.
someone you could describe as Tsundere (she used the term herself once)
Honestly she kinda just sounds like a cringe LARPer.
I actually finds kuudere really cute because they actually feels emotion, only they are bad at expressing it and others have to learn to understand her while she learns to open up little by little.
Bro… these are fictional characters. My tastes for fictional women do not align with my taste in women irl
Me on the interwebs: I want a girl who could fold my clothes with me still in them
Me irl: THIS IS NOT HOW I WANNA DIE! NOT LIKE THIS! NOT LIKE THIS!
Literally can’t relate at all with that second thing
Agreed. Tsundere characters are fun, but irl I want a partner to be straight forward and mature with me
I’m similar. I like women who will literally kill me and abuse me irl but in anime I like the super cheerful happy but dumb types
bingo
it can be an extremely endearing kind of personality to watch from afar, since it’s just that more impactful when their real feelings shine through (generally speaking, not just romantically), but that doesn’t mean pretending it wouldn’t be exhausting to deal with :P
real. i like tsundere characters in media, but irl? oh god no thank you
Then you have me...who likes yanderes
They get a pass, the shit they do is unrealistic, but they are manageable
Damn my dude i have a news for you
I remember the one from Shuffle and that girl scared the shit outta me
what can i say i like scary
/uj I think most people(myself included) like journey of how Tsunderes and Kuuderes grow past their flaws to become better versions of themselves rather than the literal traits of what makes up the descriptors. Character development is contingent on there being something that forces the character to change. Learning how to express yourself isn't something you just learn overnight especially if you're carrying emotional baggage. Tsunderes try to overcompensate for their inability to express how they feel by strongly pretending that they don't while Kuuderes may just not understand how to express themselves in the first place. With that being said, I don't like that violence has become a common "trait" for tsunderes because you can absolutely write a tsundere without it(see Kyoko from Maison Ikkoku).
/rj How could you not love them when they give you a chance to be a self-insert white knight and "fix" them?
Kinda off topic but I have unironically been called a “tsundere” by people. This made me go through massive character growth and prompted me to always be nice to the people I like.
I fucking hate tsundere’s
W character growth
how are you supposed to write 300 chapters of "Will They Get Together? Trouble in the Aspect of Love!" if the main love interest just comes out and states her feelings?
Just do modern version, "they are practically dating but they didn't realise that"
Because its nice to see the development of the kuudere express emotion and the tsundere evolve to express their feelings in a genuine manner
I could read about these 3 for hours precicely because they bounce off each other so well when its done right
I like tsunderes when they are not complete total assholes. Like the idea of somebody being closed off, having issues, pretending to be tougher then they are, slowly opening up as they find someone they feel safe and can be open with. But that’s just my opinion.
I mean that is literally what Taiga from Toradora is like. Usually these tropes are just flanderised versions of the originators.
Yes, but taiga is terrible. Like she tries to kill the Mc for something stupid. She physically abuses the Mc. While the Mc does shit for her despite her being horrible.
I think you badly misread that whole situation.
First of all, it’s a fucking cartoon. It’s going to be exaggerated.
Secondly, Taiga’s personality shifts over the course of the series as she learns that maybe she doesn’t need to be so violent and scary and that she can open up to others.
And that’s one of the problems I have with tsunderes. They exaggerate their assholeness to such stupid levels that you cannot understand why the Mc would even help her. Just cause it’s a cartoon that does not mean it doesn’t have to make sense. So what if she gets better? Let’s look at it this way. A guy tries to kill a girl because she knows something embarrassing about him, the girl who also has issues decides to become his friend, she cooks for him, cleans his room, all while he sometimes hits her and uses physical violence because of his own issues. But she keeps being nice so he stops being so aggressive. Feels unearned.
Taiga doesn’t try to kill him.
She does remember? In like the first episode. She accidentally gives him a love letter that was for somebody else, breaks into his house with a wooden sword. And attacks him, she says he won’t die but she can wipe his memory. Still hitting the head with a wooden object at full fucking force can cause brain damage. And that doesn’t take from the fact that she broke into his house and attacked him with a weapon, and she only stopped when he told her there was nothing in it. This is the equivalent of a guy breaking into a girl’s house because he sent her the wrong text, attacking her with a weapon and only stopping when she says the message wasn’t sent due to an error. The situation being treated like it’s comedic doesn’t make it comedic.
I think you just don’t understand comedic exaggeration.
If comedic exaggeration is “don’t question it” or “it’s a cartoon” then I guess I don’t. We are shown a scene where a girl breaks into a guy’s house, attacks him aggressively, and later on uses physical violence on him. And that’s another problem showing physical violence as a coping mechanism being funny, isn’t funny. See it from a different view let’s switch taiga and the Mc’s roles. The Mc breaks into her house attacks her. Uses physical violence on her, all while she has to deal with it and do stuff for him. Because she can fix him. All this with the same tone and “exaggeration”.
The point of a tsundere is that they’re supposed to eventually warm up to the main character. Their behavior is more of a character flaw that they grow out of. Kuuderes just seem like they have autism or something to me, so I don’t think there’s any maliciousness behind their inability to emote.
I wonder if there a -dere type like me who's so Autistic they don't even know how to express that they want someone.
idek, maybe?
Many kuuderes fall into that category. Although not necessarily autism = kuudere, it is very common to see. I say this from my experience as an autistic person.
Oh, so you hate Kuuderes? Why autistic girls don't deserve to be loved?
Is that the guy who looks like a 1x1 lego piece?
Not all tsunderes and kuuderes have the same personality profile.
I have seen some tsunderes who have pleasant personalities and don't use violence. It's just that they're immature and they can't admit that they like their crushes or friends.
Some kuuderes are really funny, like Eumiella from Villainess 99. In general I think this archetype works really well when the story doesn't gloss over how awkward it is. The main guy from Handa-kun acts cool but has crippling social anxiety. And arguably Saiki K is like that too (from what I remember).
I think any trope can work well when written well. And I like seeing these character types in non-romantic contexts as well. The best friend (a tsundere) in Silver Plan To Redo From Jk is actually such a nice character with an interesting arc.
I like the character development answer, because I do think they can be more engaging than someone who is already brilliant at romance, but I do have two other answers.
One, we take advantage of dramatic irony. We know how they feel about the situation, and so their inability can come across as tragic. The kuudere can't seem to make a connection. The tsundere is afraid to. While these are sometimes main characters, they're often also secondary figures, who we know won't ultimately get the guy. That's also one reason you have people who root for childhood friend characters; in a lot of stories, you know from the very beginning that they've already lost.
Two, they can be relatable. My preferred tsunderes are in comedy, where you get girls (and the occasional boy) who doesn't hate the MC as much as they can't admit they like the MC. They're gaff machines, and I think a lot of people can relate to "that person I always seem to get angry or mess up in front of, but I actually like". It's not the kuudere doesn't show emotion, it's that people don't pick up on it, or don't interpret it the way we want them to.
Asuka and Rin caused blunt-force trauma on two generations of weebs
The contrast between the bitter and the sweet, frankly. It's the same reason some people like cats, the aloofness makes the affection more stark and more special.
It's not terribly complicated.
this is why gap moe is so popular with japanese people. seeing a hidden loving side of a character that seems unapproachable at first feels rewarding and adds a bit more depth to them.
I think this video sums it up pretty well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIN1CS0Ixwo
Why do people climb Mt Everest?
Death wish?
Personal Goal?
Idk man I just think it's kinda funny. Like yeah there's a limit to how much physical violence that can be dished out before it's too much, but the awkwardness of a character that can't think of any way of venting their emotions other than physically lashing out can be cute in a weird way
I like Kuuderes too, because when a character doesn't show much emotion regularly, the moments when they do become more meaningful.
Kuuderes shows emotions, you just need to see it because they not gonna overreact and care for your worldview. And for their love the answer is loyalty. If kuudere falls in love - it is forever. And now guess how many kuuderes wins their love (spoiler: fuck tsunderes), so they deserve a hug.
i think its the same reason people would think menhera women are attractive in fiction and a nightmare in real life. case in point(mikeneko)
It wasn't until level 99 villainess this season that I realized I liked kuuderes
"I'm just so gosh danged lovable that the girl who doesnt seem to like anybody likes me."
This is why yanderes are the best
Fighting is a form of drama, and a lot of people like to openly get into drama because it's fun for them. Even more people than that would love to engage with drama for fun, but avoid it due to stress or danger. This is an outlet for that that has no actual repercussions for them, so it's all drama and no danger, which means all fun.
I like kuuderes, not everyone has to be extremely expressive, there's a cuteness in that.
However tsunderes are abusive assholes who often deserve to be thrown in jail.
Yeah, the abusive tsundere trope is overdone, and most people think that Asuka from Evangelion, who is an emotionally unstable and traumatized 14 year old, is the quintessential tsundere, or Naru from Love Hina, who was sexually harassed to the point of reacting to any slight against her with violence, which is a PTSD response.
As for kuudere, who are often depicted as struggling to express emotions, it is usually for the moe-gap, the image of a soft spoken and reserved person breaking out of their shell to the person they hold affection for.
Both of these archetypes are also used for teenagers, people who have not finished their mental and emotional development.
Actually, now that I think of it, Asuka and Rei from Evangelion, Naru from Love Hina, Koneko from Highschool DxD, Homura from Madoka Magica, Taiga from Toradora; all of these girls I know about who fall under either the tsundere or kuudere tropes are all traumatized teenagers who don't know how to handle their respective traumas outside of lashing out or repressing.
Maybe it's cause I'm aromantic, so it's more sexual than romantic to me, but idk something about a woman who's both interested and resentful/disgusted in me in some way is kinda fun. Plus, it's nice seeing them open up proper (I recently read Maid-Sama and it does this really well) and it can be a fun thing to watch.
Rj/ uhhhhh step on me?
Uj/ uhhhhh step on me?
Kuuderes are just dating autistic people
Tsundere is shit enough in fiction i dont even wanna bring up real life comparisons for it. It is a relic of its time that shouldve been long dead and buried by now. I thought with all this Reiwa era shit we would've gotten rid of this thing too, but apparently not. Imagine telling everyone you refuse to participate in a track race, shot yourself in the legs to prove that point, and then throw a fit when you didnt win said race.
The only ones i genuinely like were Maki Shijo and Makise Kurisu. Maki because it is a realistic and deserved outcome of how tsundere would end up, and she even cite her experience to Miyuki and Ishigami to get them both to speak up their feelings if they dont wanna end up like her. Kurisu because, lets get real here, Okabe is also kind of a dick towards her for like half of the anime and she only stayed around because this dick managed to spit on the face of modern science and shadow government using nothing but home appliances.
I personally think I'd be more interested in a flawed or complex fictional person than someone who is perfect 24/7, I guess it just feels a bit more "realistic" to me. However, I'm aware that there are a LOT of manga/anime that take those tropes 100x to the max (tsundere especially), to the point where it's not even close to reality anymore. I can totally understand being turned off by that. I'm gonna go and guess that kuudere & tsundere enjoyers have fun with the fantasy produced from those characters because it's ridiculous and unrealistic to the point where it's "thrilling" (in a sense). It's even hard for me to understand or explain. Either you like it or you immediately get turned off since we all have different taste in media.
Because I like it when women hit me
Masochism
I love male and female kuuderes but I hate female tsunderes
Wtf is a Kuudere ? i being watching anime for 15 years and have never heard of that term
It just mean the reserved, stotic, emotionless, sometimes cold that do sometimes show a softer and kinder side. Rei from Evangelion and Kanade from Angel Beats are the faces for the trope.
I think both tropes are done best when they're walls that are overcome, rather than a permanent state of being. Seeing a Tsundere character finally profess their love in a sweet manner, or seeing the Kuudere character who never flinches cry tears of joy... it's when the trope is broken that it's done best.
The issue is that a lot of Tsundere are all tsun and no dere. Kuudere is a less common trope so I haven't seen much of it, but it's not quite as badly done from what I know. Regardless, the trope should be something that happens at the start and is ultimately moved past.
I’m fine with Tsunderes in a non-romance show/context or its a secondary or tertiary traits, where they feel more realistic with their interactions with everyone else. I can never watch them in romcoms where they are the main FL since often their traits are taken to 11, but I guess the appeal is a mix of the journey + “I can fix her/him”.
Kuuderes in anime aren’t often romantic leads and there feels more often a friendship build up before a romance build up.
Tsundere’s only work when they’re gay don’t @ me
i like kuuderes because they are autistic like me
Tsunderes are aggressive and that’s cool, and it’s also extremely vital to the trope that a tsundere doesn’t actually hate you.
rj/ It gave us hope. Remember that girl in highschool that apparently hated your guts? She was in love with you man, because your vast knowledge of Bionicle lore. 😎
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