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Dark side users use the dark side in defiance of the living force. They use the force and corrupt it to their own ends. This is the perversion of the sith and why Jedi don’t hesitate to kill sith on sight
Jedi don’t hesitate to kill sith on sight
Obi-Wan would beg to differ 🤭
Seriously, though, this reaction is not the Jedi way. They kill only when there is no other recourse, not as the default setting.
Best option - convert/save the sith to the light.
Preferred fallback - subdue the sith to prevent harm
No other option - end the sith mercifully if they leave you no other recourse.
In reality, the only time Jedi try to save Sith is when it is A easier than killing them, or B. Someone they know
Yeah, but in doing that they aren’t really following the Jedi code
“They’re more like…guidelines”
It really depends on the individuals involved and a judgement call. Life should be preserved. If that can be accomplished by bringing the wayward soul back to an appreciation of balance then that is preferred. If the wayward soul does not give the Jedi that chance then one does what must be done.
It’s easy to assume that killing is the best way, but doing so makes one callous, perhaps even ruthless, or cruel. That short and easy path leads to the dark side.
Or C, killing someone unnecessarily is murder and a pathway to the dark side. Case in point, Anakin killing Dooku was murder. Obi-Wan killing Maul (twice) was self-defense.
Its always going to be easier to kill a sith than save them, jedi dont do things because they are easy
This is the perversion of the sith and why Jedi don’t hesitate to kill sith on sight
Huh. Kinda weird how Mace Windu wanted to "arrest" Palpatine at first.
Yeah, Palpatine is only "too dangerous to be left alive" once he's cur down four Jedi masters in a flash and demonstrated the ability to shoot lightning from his hands. And that's supervillain-level dangerous, there!
But the force is not inherently good. It manipulates people and uses them to achieve its own goals.
Yeah it’s not a good vs evil thing IMO
Grey Jedi are just enlightened centrists
I see the light side representing balance and the dark side representing unbalance.
That said, the dark side "attributes" listed under the grey jedi in this picture shouldn't be dark side things. Qui-gon understood that. The Jedi order did not and it's what caused their downfall
Except they are dark side things. Of course passion and emotion aren’t inherently bad or evil, but that’s for us everyday people in the context of our normal lives. For a Force-user they become dangerous. The Force exists in a natural and neutral state. To channel one’s own personal and ultimately selfish passions/emotions through the Force is a corruption which if left unchecked leads to the dark side. For example, it’s perfectly normal to feel sad or angry, but once you start drawing on the Force to feed those emotions or vice verse it becomes a manifestation of the dark side, because those personal passions are not part of the natural Force. You’re putting them there.
The problem the Jedi has was they tried to suppress the natural forms of emotion. They were afraid of emotion because it could lead to people falling to the dark side, so they made it part of their creed to suppress them when what they should have done was taught themselves to embrace emotion, but to also find peace in the Force instead of using it to fuel said emotion.
Or at least that’s my take on it. I ain’t George Lucas.
The part that becomes Dark Side is the pride and control and autocracy over the very force of the universe. It’s inherently perverse to use life to end life, which is why lightning is always a Dark ability. But passion itself can create life, if you know what I mean…
It’s not the passion that is dark, but the desire for control.
Well said. It is absolutely about control. A true Jedi when overwhelmed by emotion abandons control, not to said emotion, but to the Force. He/she lets the Force guide them and give them clarity. A Sith, or someone on their way to becoming one, lets their emotion guide them and seeks to control the Force, which interferes with its natural will and throws the universe out of balance.
This is pretty spot on. Emotions, in the context of force users, seem to have a positive feedback loop toward the dark side. The user corrupts the Force and, in turn, corrupts themselves over time.
I'd say that the Jedi weren't inherently opposed to emotions, however. Obi Wan, for example, loved Anakin as a brother. They weren't attached to those emotions, and NEVER acted on those emotions. Their true fault, in large part due to their dogmatism, was their inability to handle a powerful force user who was brought up acting on and embracing those emotions. Most Jedi were incapable of teaching Anakin to truly embrace the idea of not acting on emotions. It didn't help that Anakin was being indoctrinated by Sheev on the side.
A good example is Obi Wan+Satine vs Anakin+Padme. Obi Wan says he would have left the Jedi order if Satine asked for it. Anakin wants to have his cake and eat it by hiding his marriage with Padme and still training as a Jedi.
To expand a bit, and I’m glad you brought up Obi Wan because I think he’s a perfect example of how I view the Jedi and the Force, I think the Jedi have the right idea but misunderstand their own doctrine. They believe that through the Force, you can find peace. They also believe that emotion leads to the dark side. So to the Jedi the way to “peace in the Force” is to discard emotion and reach some sort of perceived “enlightenment.” But I think this is wrong. The Force isn’t so much peace as it is clarity, and through clarity one finds peace within themself.
Emotions are natural and it’s okay to embrace them, but when you become overwhelmed by emotion, whether it be fear, pain, fury, etc, you can reach out to the Force and find clarity. By trusting in the will of the Force it can show you the path forward, which can be difficult to see through the cloud of emotion, and in this way you can find peace within yourself. So emotions aren’t the problem, it’s how you use them.
Obi Wan is a perfect example of this. He loves Satine and He loves Anakin. He doesn’t reject emotion, but he also doesn’t let it cloud his judgment. In his darkest moments he trusts the Force and finds his clarity through it. He never lets his emotions guide him down the wrong path. This is where he differs from Anakin. Anakin never finds peace because he views the Force as a tool he can use to fulfill his own desires. He can save his mom, win battles, save Padme, bring peace to the galaxy, if only he can become POWERFUL enough. He twists the Force to his will and lets his emotions control him, and when the Jedi tell him to abandon his emotions he dismisses them because they ARE wrong, but they’re so close to being right that it’s hard to see the true path. Instead Anakin believes Palpatine, who reinforces his belief that the Force is something you can control to achieve your own ends.
I agree with almost everything except Obiwan 100% let his love for Anakin cloud his judgment. He should have seen what he was becoming and wasn't able to face it until it was already to late.
BUT BUT BUT 2 SITH + 2 JEDI = BALANCE!!!!!1!!!!1!!1
I was so relieved to see your comment at the top. I see posts about Grey Jedi on this sub every now and then. A lot of people are under the false impression that it’s possible for a force user to balance the Light and Dark sides of the force. You explained this misconception really well — especially the tobacco bit.
If I could add to that, Dark and Light both must exist in nature to provide contrast for what the Light really is. If there was no Dark, people would not completely appreciate all that the Light stands for.
Another thing I wanted to note is George’s view on the Sith: Dark Side wielders are selfish. The Jedi code (when followed correctly) stands for peace, justice, and compassion — in other words, Selflessness. The Sith code is built upon pride, power, and revenge — or Selfishness. The idea that they can coexist within a single person is foolishness. The Jedi Order fell because of hubris, or pride, which blinded them to their greatest enemy yet. Luke defeated the Emperor through love, or compassion, for his father — something the Emperor could not have predicted. One cannot be both selfless and selfish without being at war within himself/herself.
Edit: From George himself
Yes indeed. Not to self promote, but I think you'd enjoy reading a post I made on r/MawInstallation a few months back
This is such a clear and well written point. I was leaning to this line of thinking but now I solidly agree.
Thank you so much, I'm tired of this bizarre 'grey Jedi' thing, stemming from a total misunderstanding of the Force.
Been saying this for years. Balance doesn't mean equal light and dark. It means removing the corruption, AKA the dark, from it.
Robert Louis Stevenson understood it perfectly when he made Edward Hyde purely dark and Henry Jekyll gray rather than purely light as he initially assumed- a false assumption which led to his tragic undoing because he failed to recognize his own nature as necessarily including an uneraseable measure of the darkness that Hyde was entirely made of, or at least the potentiality for darkness inherent in free will.
With that in mind how do you explain Mortis?
As soon as the Son began to embrace the dark side everything began to fall apart. Mortis exists to explain that the use of the dark side is not balance. It can never be balance.
Precisely this. The Son literally defies The Father’s will there.
The whole time, they were trying to stop the Brother from leaving and corrupting the galaxy even further. And it seemed like the Father favored the daughter more because she stayed with the light
The dark side of the force exists and its existence is not necessarily the cancer. (The son is the embodiment of its existence) When dark side users exist, however, seems to be the point at which things get murky. While using the light side seems to have no permanent negative consequences, utilizing the dark side corrupts the user and the pool.
This is the best headcanon I live with, because I’m not sure the contradiction has ever been official explained.
Yes, this is it. Tobacco is a naturally occurring plant. But it's harmful when humans introduce it to their bodies. It's not hurting anything just sitting out in the field where it grows, but the harm comes from those who would use it.
If this is so, can you talk on why the force would essentially bring Anakin into the world if the majority of his life he would be a major proponent of the sith? Was it a necessary cause for the greater good?
Like Yoda says "always in motion the future is." Beings in the star wars universe still have free will. Anakin didn't have to turn to the darkside. Even though he was being manipulated and mislead, it was ultimately his choice that he made. The force may have brought Anakin into existence in hopes that he would bring balance, but it couldn't force that outcome (pun slightly intended)
Thanks for the reply! I thought he did bring balance to the force ultimately though?
Yes, but again, that was Anakin's choice. The force didn't pull him back to the light on its own, he decided to come back and do the right thing. It just kinda all worked out in the end
I agree, however that doesn't mean grey Jedi cant try to exist.
Jedi and sith are basically two different religions, and on earth, we have a ton of religions but not all of them can be right, they contradict.
So I think there defiantly could be people who try to be balanced between the light and the dark, but that doesn't mean they are right
Very well put
I think most of the Star Wars universe doesn't adhere to that philosophy at all. I mean would you call Anakin loving Padme a disease? Or Qui-Gon bending the rules a cancer? The Jedi have these rules to maintain "balance" but it defys nature. This topic has been discussed by people more informed on the lore than me. I just think viewing Star Wars through that sort of lens loses the complexity of the Universe.
Those weren’t wrong or dark side related, the Jedi just had too much strict rules and were dogmatic, that’s why they fell
You could argue that the dogma of the Jedi !== Light side and going outside their rules doesn't inherently make you dark side. Nobody said anakin loving Padmé and qui Gon's rule bending were dark side acts or cancer.
You’re confusing Jedi asceticism and dogma with the will of the Force. The Jedi’s monastic views are one way of being servants of the Force—not the only way.
I think this is where the whole misnomer of “grey Jedi” comes from. You either follow the Jedi creed or you don’t. Ahsoka is not a grey Jedi after she leaves the Order; she is Force adept who has taken some of their ideas and reformed them to suit her own sense of morality.
She also does not skirt the dark side, as the “grey” part would suggest. She is entirely a light practitioner who just doesn’t adhere to the strict views of the Jedi.
How are those two things an example of Sith though? Sith practices are a cancer, but those things are not examples of Sith practices
That’s incorrect. “Balance” in Star Wars is the natural state of The Force/Galaxy/Universe. The natural state of something cannot defy nature. Neither of the examples you use are seen as being out of balance.
Agreed, while the light vs dark is one thing, I think jedi vs sith is another. Regardless of how corrupt the sith are, the Jedi asceticism isn't necessarily "the way" either, and I think even they prove to be a flawed organisation on multiple occasions.
I think defining what "grey" is is really tricky. Is it simply rejection of the Jedi asceticism, while restraining oneself from falling to the dark side? Is it finding merits in both? It's tricky to define, and there are many "light side" force users who do not comply with the jedi code, does that make them grey? Some even have been known to use powers associated with the dark side, but does this necessarily mean they have given in to the dark side, even if temporarily, or is it possible to have control over ones emotions to the point where one has access to such abilities, which the asceticism of the jedi would never be able to even touch? Are such powers perhaps associated with the dark side merely because they are counter to said asceticism, regardless of "light" vs "dark".
There's too many variables to say that one must pick a side and stay in their lane. While at first this light vs dark narrative may have been accurate, I think the philosophy has matured to the point where it isn't actually black and white, I would hesitate to even say that it's a scale if grey, but rather a whole spectrum of colour, not unlike real world philosophies. Even if within the context of these two prominent philosophies, this light vs dark narrative can naturally be derived as an us vs them dichotomy, and because the Jedi philosophy tends to align better with values of "goodness", attributing that path to "the light" comes naturally. But I think it's dangerous to simply say "there is only light and dark and if you are not wholly on the side of light then you might as well be on the side of dark", because that invalidates a lot of other very valid positions one can take. Compared to the Jedi's asceticism, even stoicism would probably be viewed as grey, but in the light vs dark dichotomy, because it isn't as "pure" light, it thence falls into dark, and that just doesn't seem right at all.
IMO grey jedi are like a circle on a venn diagram that covers most of the Jedi circle, and a lot of other space. IMO grey Jedi, and Luke's Jedi academy had a better idea of what the true nature of the force was.
Luke’s stance on the Force was not the defining feature of his worldview. He believed the same thing the Jedi of the prequels did in regard to the Force—that the dark side was a perversion and a disease.
His views only differed on the ascetic stance of the Jedi as an Order of the Republic. He didn’t want his order to be one of dogmatism and hero worship. That doesn’t make him or that view one of a so-called a “grey Jedi”. It just means he is effectively different sect of light side Force worshippers that wanted reform, not unlike we see with modern religions.
Thank you for saying it so I didn't have to, you beautiful human being. ❤
Yeah, there isn't a healthy amount of cancer in the body, and there isn't balance with the Dark Side.
This misunderstanding isn't helped by stupid lines like, "The Dark rises and the Light to meet it." Which seems to imply that there has to be balance between the two, which uh no.
Thank you.
Further - Balance in the Force was used in a Eastern Context. Reaching Nirvana or Enlightenment.
It's not about balancing good and bad. It's about achieving some sort of space where emotions aren't in control. But understanding one's place in the Universe. Which is completely lightside. That's what "Balance" meant.
Gray Jedi is a largely fanmade concept that can be given many definitions. The most commonly cited one is a force user who uses "both the light side and the dark side." There are none by this definition because it is nonsensical. Someone who falls to the dark side does not lose any abilities. They can still do things that Jedi can do, they just gain the more unnatural abilities that involve bending the force to their will rather than following the will of the force. So "using both sides" doesn't make any sense since that's just what it means to be a dark side user.
My personal definition is a force user who is not affiliated with either the Jedi or the Sith, yet practices some of the same talents (using a lightsaber for instance). This allows for both light side and dark side users to be considered Gray Jedi. The ones I can think of in Canon are Ahsoka, Ventress (after her clone wars arc), Ty Yorrick, and debatably maul post clone wars, although I would argue he is really just a sith, even if he doesn't personally call himself one. There are tons more examples if you go to Legends.
I see videos all the time saying "they don't exist" but the term itself has no strict definition, so I think there is a case to be made that they do exist, given you use a definition that actually makes any sense in universe.
I could be wrong, but I think the fan theory started with the game Knights of the Old Republic and it’s light/dark side system. You could play the game and hover in the middle the hole time, and people started referring to that as being a “Gray Jedi.”
I agree that a “Gray Jedi” shouldn’t be referred as Jedi or Sith. They are just a force user with no religious or political agenda. They are essentially a person who was trained in the ways of the force, but chose not to follow the Jedi or Sith codes.
It predates KOTOR, I think, because KOTOR itself adopts the idea by featuring Jolee Bindo as the “Grey Jedi Knight.”
Comes from the table top game, which influenced KOTOR mechanics.
I think Corran Horn, a lone force user who fell out of the Jedi but didn't join the Sith, might also pre-date Jolee Bindo.
Edit: Before someone corrects me, yes I know he later joined back up with the Jedi and even was a Master in the old canon. But there was a period there where he was just a guy with a lightsaber and no affiliation.
I agree with you pretty much 100% here, but I think the second category can be better described as Wayseekers. Calling those characters "Grey Jedi" doesn't really make sense, especially when there's a canon name that fits the concept much better.
Wayseekers are something else. Orla Jareni is a Wayseeker. But she is still a part of the Jedi Order, despite operating mostly independently. Someone like Ty Yorrick is actually separated from the Order, no longer associated with it at all.
That's fair, I mentioned it cause it applies well to a lot of the other "grey Jedi" that often get referenced, like Qui-gon and Ahsoka.
Though I'd argue that as long as Ty continues to follow the will of the Force, she's unknowingly a Wayseeker, even if she wouldn't call herself that.
The term Jedi is where the strict definition comes from. A grey force user is fine, a grey Jedi doesn’t exist because being a Jedi is a very particular set of rules.
It’s like saying I’m a grey vegan, so I’m a vegan that also eats meat, that clearly doesn’t make any sense.
That is not necessarily the case. The term Dark Jedi has been in use in Star Wars for almost as long as star wars has been in existence. It is a looser usage of the word that is more used to represent the idea of a force user rather than specifically a member of the Jedi Order
I see videos all the time saying "they don't exist" but the term itself has no strict definition, so I think there is a case to be made that they do exist, given you use a definition that actually makes any sense in universe.
This x100.
I've seen a lot of discussions around Gray Jedi and other topics, where the discourse doesn't come from disagreement, but miscommunication. For Gray Jedi, people might argue whether they exist or don't exist, but without initially agreeing on what the term "Gray Jedi" means, the conversation can't be resolved.
Some people think of Gray Jedi as just Light Side users do not totally conform to the Jedi rules and dogma. Under this definition, Gray Jedi indisputably exist. Ahsoka is the obvious example. Qui-Gon and Quinlan Vos to lesser extents.
Others think of Gray Jedi as Force-users who can use both Light and Dark Side powers interchangeably without committing to one side or the other. That's a much harder case to make. There are examples, like Bendu and the Father, but they may not count because they are other worldly Force entities.
Again, it all depends on an individual's definition of the term. You summed it up perfectly. I wish more would recognize this underlying cause of discourse before getting trigger happy and launching into a rant one way or another.
In the Kotor games you actually do lose your ability to perform certain force powers if you switched sides. But yeah I agree with your write up.
It's been a while since I played, but doesn't it just become more expensive to use those abilities? (Legends anyways so not necessarily a hole in my reasoning, but I get what you're saying)
Yes. Not sure how it is in the MMO, but in the original games, it costs more to use a light power if you are dark and vice versa. The cost is multiplied based on how far down your alignment you are.
Of all the legends stuff, i wish KOTOR 1&2 were cannon. Not only were they amazing stories, but they really defined what the force was and what it was like to be a part of it.
If you mean SWTOR it's actually more restricted there. You have your jedi classes and your sith classes, you can't use abilities of two separate classes at the same time. You'll be able to switch between them in the next update but for now you're stuck with light side or dark side abilities, no inbetween.
“It matters which side we choose. Even if there will never be more light than darkness. Even if there can be no more joy in the galaxy then there is pain. For every action we undertake, for every word we speak, for every life we touch–it matters. I don’t turn toward the light because it means someday I’ll ‘win’ some sort of cosmic game. I turn toward it because it is the light.“
-Qui Gon Jinn
There is no grey, you choose the light or you choose the dark
That's pretty sithy of you giving absolutes >:)
Exactly! it has been said that siths deal in absolute, but Jedi do too. the duality of evil and good is what it's all about. At the beginning of the movies I thought :why is Anakin being punished for having thoughts that are only human? yes ...a Jedi needs to control these thoughts, but that doesn't mean that they don't have them. it's like a religious cult and I didn't really like that.
It’s not like a religious cult it is one. It just happens to be real in this instance.
Because Obiwan is a hypocrite
Word “bendu” not ring any bells?
He's just a coward who's refusing to pick a side, as Kanan calls him out for.
Even so choosing not to make a choice is itself a a choice you can make. You can choose to be neither good nor evil. You can choose to remove yourself from everything and therefore put no good or evil in the world. Which is what the Bendu does.
"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" - Darth Neil
The wisdom of Darth Peart the Bombastic.
It's not a story the Pop Charts will tell.
Apathy is death!
You can choose to be neither good nor evil.
Sure can. And in turn, all that is required for evil to triumph is for good beings to do nothing, to borrow a phrase. If evil exists, and you don't oppose it, your neutrality condones it.
<Even so choosing not to make a choice is itself a a choice you can make.
isn't that a song?
Freewill by Rush
Yeah and Bendu is wrong
Never said he wasn’t.
So a worthless fence sitter.
Bendu is not Jedi or Sith. He is not light or dark. He is the Force. A grey Jedi doesn't exist. A force user who can wield both sides is possible, they are no jedi or Sith.
Never said Bendu was a grey jedi. I was saying that the choice between light and dark isn’t binary like the original comment suggested it was.
As I remember, he does help light siders in the end
He helps them by attacking the empire but he also attacks the rebels too.
It's ironic that you chose a Qui Gon quote since, in the Star Wars comic book (EU canon, but still) Master Tyyokka is having a conversation with Plo Koon about why Qui Gon won't be considered for a seat on the council and specifically says:
It will not happen. Too stubborn that one. Jinn always does things his way, always sure he is right, always incredulous if we do not see it his way. Some think he is a gray jedi.
I know most star wars fans are against the idea of a gray jedi, but I personally ascribe to the possibility of them being a "real" but rare thing because of how often different jedi (especially Windu) tap into both "sides" of the force. I just think the definition itself is different to different people -- hence the existing debate. And yeah, I know what Lucas said, but, well, he's also the same guy who gave us force bacteria so...
Gray Jedi in this sense is that he doesn’t always follow the orders of the Council and goes about in his own way. Not once in his life has Qui Gon used the dark side, even if he didn’t agree with the Council on most matters he was still on the light side and loyal to the Jedi Order.
Also Mace Windu doesn’t tap into the dark side, he simply redirects the dark side that someone uses. It’s like Yoda redirects lightning, but doesn’t actually do Force Lightning.
Was never canon. Not in legends or Disney canon. Frankly, I don’t even know if this idea was ever mentioned in any material - I think it’s all fan content.
And fan content aside, the idea itself doesn’t work with the force all that well. Either the force is all the same and there is no dark or light, or the darkness corrupts.
Edit: the one thing that I do agree with, is any non-Jedi light side force user can be lumped into a “gray Jedi” category for simplicity’s sake. Assuming they don’t belong to another force sect. But that’s not what this post is going for.
Moderator removed comment
2.4y
I suppose there is some similarities. Wayseeker may be the new canon name for it as Grey Jedi has become so polluted within the fandom, specifically by things like the image above that has no canon source.
I think the intent of the item and blurb within the games was to explain the organization that eventually came to be knonw as the Revanchists within the Legends Canon, a group that ignored the Council to fight the Mandalorians and save lives.
CANON*
It’s mentioned in one of the most popular Star Wars video games..
No, because they aren't in canon. That also isn't how the force works, Balance is the lightside.
The beige jedi code is also atleast more honest.
Not in new canon, but they are actually mentioned in a conversation between Master Tyyokka and Plo Koon in "The Stark Hyperspace Wars" in EU (Tyyokka specifically refers to Qui Gon as a gray jedi).
The trouble is. That's using an older definition of the word, "a jedi who doesn't always listen to the council", that most people, including this op, dont mean.
It's like if I tell you I'm happy by saying "I'm gay!". Its entirely correct, but the meaning of the phrase has changed and its misleading at best to do so.
Right which I mentioned in a different comment I made above. A lot of the issue really is definition. So agreed 100%. Now that being said, what would you personally consider Windu to be given his utilization (and even creation) of vapaad?
a lightside,r since Vapaad isnt using the darkside.
Vapaad takes the same building blocks that, if mismanaged, could turn into the darkside and instead shows extreme mastery of ones emotions, a core lightside trait, by channeling them for righteous purpose. THe risk of Vapaad is that the line between "masters ones anger issues" and "succumbs to ones anger issues" is incredibly thin, which is why it takes somebody consistently in both timelines described as the most consummately orthodox jedi ever to do it successfully.
No, grey Jedi are mostly just fanfiction for people who want to say they are the good guys, but also want to Use Force Lightening because it looks cool.
I'm fine with kids wanting that, but let's not get too deep into nerdlore debates on the matter.
I agree. I also hate that force lightning is something desirable just because it looks cool. In Canon it’s just about one of the most evil force powers one can have all it does is inflict unimaginable pain on others until death. Pure suffering.
It also charges your Tesla when your in a bind.
And most non Samsung mobile devices!
The scene in Dooku: Jedi Lost where Dooku gains the understanding of Force Lightning, illustrates this well. He uses the power only after being under unimaginable torture, and it wells out of his pain and pride and anger and kills all those who captured him without him even realizing it.
And then, of course, he hid that for years and years as the Dark Side festered inside of him, rather than seeking help from the Council, which is why he is a Sith.
Same thing with red lightsabers: red is my favorite color god damnit, I just wanna use one without people immediately assuming the worst (rightfully so in the overwhelming majority of cases but I rest my case)
I think it’s more of an anti-hero kind of thing
Enlightened Centrism
"The Sith want to enslave all the wookiees and the Jedi don't want to enslave any wookiees, so clearly the only fair compromise is to enslave some of the wookies."
Not too many villians anymore.
Traditionally, Dark Side Abilities do corrupt over time with repeated use. That said Greys wouldn't necessarily make use of those abilities. Simply their philosophy is Grey, not their usage of the Force. As far as Force Lightning is concerned there is a Light Side counterpart to it, at least in Legends, Force Judgment. Plo Koon is one of, if not the only, known user of the ability, though in theory it could be used by any Force user with enough connection to the Force. Force Crush is an ability generally frowned upon by the Jedi Order, yet we see Luke use it in the Mandalorian. Shatter Point, an ability Luke uses extensively in Legends, is similar on many levels to Force Choke, Shatter Point causing extreme pain at a specific perceived weak point (that I'm sure if taken too far could cause severe lasting harm or death), and Force Choke obviously restricting the target's ability to breath (again if taken too far we know can cause death.
You’re treating the Force like video game mechanics. There is no light and dark talent trees that only one side has access to. There is just the Force and the abilities it grants should one have the mastery of them. All of them are available to everyone.
Using a certain Force power like lightning does not inherently give you “dark side points.” It’s the application of it that matters. For example, I can Force telekinesis someone off a cliff and take their life, or I can push them into a wall to knock them out and subdue them. Same ability, different moral context.
When a Force user wields with the intention to harm or for personal gain, that is where the darkness and addiction comes from. Not the ability itself. It’s no different than brandishing a weapon (even a lightsaber!); they can be used to save and defend lives or to threaten and take them.
Well said. I think it’s specifically the intention of the user that decides what these abilities. Force lightning can be used by Jedi but you have to be strong willed or you can be corrupted by the power. There’s a difference in “wow this is a strong ability to use when I absolutely need it” and “holy shit I can shock whoever I want and who’s gonna stop me”
I once had someone give me a very detailed explanation about why dark elves women in Warhammer wear bikini armour in a frozen wasteland. I then said to them:
"So two English men in their Mid 40s created a reason to have edgy, scantily clad women in their fantasy?" That didn't quite end the discussion.
There is no good without evil, yet evil must not be allowed to flourish
What does this even mean as part of a creed? Do "grey Jedi" go around doing evil acts to encourage other people to be good or try to establish some kind of balance against charities and philanthropists? Is evil to be tolerated as long as it's not 'flourishing,' whatever that means?
Grey Jedi are not canon, because their position is fundamentally untenable in their universe. You cannot have a balance between light and dark any more than you can have a balance between doctors and murderers, or between flossing and meth, or between exercise and cigarettes. The proper amount of the latter is nil, because any amount harms people.
Listen, i am not internally balanced, life is not balanced, unless I Both Volunteer at the soup kitchen by day and prowl the shelter at night with a garotte.
If i'm not being evil sometimes, am i even a person?
Feed a puppy with one hand, and punch a puppy with the other. Balance.
Thanos is a grey Jedi, confirmed!
I mean where else would you get the meat for the soup?
Whilst as part of a code Its nonsense the quote “there is no good without evil” absolutely makes sense. It means that without evil existing, good has no meaning. Evil makes good to rise against it. And goodness can unintentionally cause evil to be created through unintended consequences.
It’s the classic yin yang philosophy. The idea that good and evil whilst opposing forces are also complimentary forces, dependant on each other.
But as I said I have no idea how would one put this concept into some sort of code of living.
Edit: a person cannot be a hero without some sort of evil to fight against.
The thing is, you don't actually need evil to have good. Good acts can arise in response to situations that are bad, but not evil. Firefighters can be good without arson being involved, doctors and surgeons can do good without needing anyone to commit an evil act, Big Brothers/Big Sisters can do wonderful good in response to situations that are nobody's fault at all.
The only way good and evil are complimentary forces is if you simply define evil as "anything, at all, that negatively affects anyone, ever." Which would mean that mindless natural disasters like earthquakes, floods, forest fires, and hurricanes are evil. Does that make sense?
there is no good without evil
This is such a bizarre take to me.
Most of us can agree on a framework for general morality in the real world without needing to observe the wrongs it protects against. You don’t need to have murderers to know that taking innocent lives in cold blood is fundamentally undesirable by the tenets of society.
This whole pseudo-philosophical notion that evil must exist to have something for good to be framed against is nonsense. The evils can be described theoretically. The goal is always to eliminate—or more pragmatically, reduce—them.
This is true if good and evil are equal opposites of each other. Another concept of evil is that it is the absence of good, like how cold is really the absence of heat, not an equal force to it.
Whole lot of pseudo-western philosophers coming in here trying to say evil is an absolute and it shows lol
Show me a canon grey Jedi and I'll consider them canon.
I think it's pretty telling that the image represents the dark side with Vader and Maul, the light side with Luke and Yoda, and the "Grey" with...some unknown featureless humanoid with a mask.
I’m sure some much more knowledgeable people will correct me but isn’t Ahsoka supposed to be semi grey? Or at least wasn’t the original plan for Rey supposed to have her end the Skywalker saga being neither light nor dark before they did all the rewrites for episode 9?
Ahsoka's not a Jedi. Force user? Sure. But not a Jedi.
Doesn't use the dark side either
Well then maybe it’s an argument of semantics because there can’t be dark side Jedi right? To use the dark side is inherently against the teachings of the Jedi so you can’t therefore be a Jedi
More importantly than not being a Jedi, Ahsoka doesn't use the dark side. She's essentially an avatar of the light side at this point, about as far from being "grey" as Palpatine.
The Sith and Jedi are groups organized around a set of beliefs. There is no codified “grey”. That doesn’t even make sense does it?
There are force users that don’t belong to these groups. They are not forced to follow some arbitrary code
Exactly, same reason “dark Jedi” aren’t really a thing.
Exactly. You’re either a Jedi following the beliefs and rules of the organization or you’re not.
Not being a Jedi doesn’t automatically make you a Sith either. You just exist as someone that knows about the force and can do whatever. And if the Sith or Jedi have a problem with that I am sure they make short work of the problem
I’ve always hated Grey Jedi. It was a way for kids who were Role Playing Star Wars to be a Jedi, but also be able to shoot force lightning. It has no real place in the canon.
No because as of Lucas, the light and dark are not equals, the dark side is a corruption of the force not a natural state of it, balancing the force means to remove corruption that makes it unstable.
The dark and light side or terrible names for this reason.
Too be fair the son exists as sort of like a twin with the daughter and were equals from what i understood in clone wars
No because you can't casually use the darkside and cannon is not gray its black and white. If you operate outside of the jedi council then your not a jedi your a force user.
How about Rey using force lightning?
The light side is balance. “Grey Jedi” are simply Jedi that aren’t caught up in the Jedi council politics and follow the will of the force. The force, as an entity, is not both light and dark, just light. The dark side is a perversion of the force, not just another side of it like extended media would have you believe.
Exactly. The two best examples of "Grey Jedi" are Ahsoka Tano and Jolee Bindo, both former Jedi who left the Order but stayed firmly on the light side of the Force and morality in general.
If either of them had snapped and started murdering people with Force lightning for the sake of cancelling out other good deeds, they wouldn't be very balanced on the whole.
No.
You can not use the Dark Side without it corrupting you. You could pretend to be a Grey Jedi but eventually it will consume you.
Evil is evil.
Evil is Evil. Lesser, greater, middling… it's all the same.
Once you start the path you go further and further
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2.4y
Yup. Occasional lack of control is ginna happen. It's when you actively start using dark powers that it's bad
Exactly, so there could be people in the galaxy that try to be a grey Jedi, but they will all eventually fall.
Grey Jedi are not canon. That being said using the light side doesn’t mean you’re good and using the dark side doesn’t mean you evil. There are morally grey characters that use the dark side such as bounty Hunter ventress. Likewise there are many situations where you can say the Jedi weren’t doing good.
There is also the Bendu who claims to be “the one in the middle”.
But regardless grey Jedi themselves are not canon.
Bendu can claim to be the middle, but all he did was allow evil to reign, by not actively fighting against it.
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing.
Ventress might not have been a Sith, but she wasn't a good person if she was using the Dark Side as part of bounty hunting. Bounty hunting in itself can be morally questionable. Like was she accepting bounties to retrieve fleeing slave? Padawans had a high bounty, and were just a bunch of scared kids with a target on their back because of how they were born. Would it be right to turn them into for a lot of credits.
Or say accepting a bounty on a child, to be given to people that you know are evil, because they were part of an organization that wiped out your race.
Bounty hunting is a complicated profession. It definitely can be terrible, so using the Dark Side as part of it, would fit, and be bad. Less bad than what Ventress did before? maybe. Actively good? nope.
Grey jedi = cringe
It’s just magic at that point. I like how in canon, it’s a choice between going down the hard but good path or the fast but shitty path. Dark side users trying to justify their use sound like heroin addicts saying “I just need a hit to mellow me out”. The grey Jedi concept is like saying “sure just use a small amount of heroin and you’ll be good”. No you will eventually get hooked sooner or later.
But if you use “grey Jedi” to describe a light sider who is not affiliated with the order, that’s cool, I feel like their should be more characters like that. Or a different order of light siders who follow its tenants but in a completely different interpretation than the Jedi.
From how I understand canon, the term “grey Jedi” is oxymoronic. The Jedi are dedicated to the light side and fighting off the dark side to the best of their ability. The dark side is like a blight on the force that’s impossible to completely eradicate but must be kept in check.
I think force users who happen to be morally grey may exist coincidentally, but I don’t think any order or structured force philosophy that aims to achieve “greyness” can really exist and maintain any sort of ideological consistency, if it could even sustain itself (not to mention, what would even be its purpose?)
Bendu’s moral grayness seemed to be mostly based on self-preservation, selfishness, disregard for the goings-on of the galaxy, etc. while he didn’t strive for power or wide-scale dominance like a sith or member of some other dark side order, his “neutral” stance was basically tacit approval of whatever the status quo in the galaxy was at the time, no matter how evil it may have been.
This is certainly not an ideal to strive for, and it seems like moral “grayness” in the force is based on apathy and disregard at best, fear (which can lead to the dark side) at worst.
There have always seemed to be two types of grey Jedi in legends lore.
The first I can still see as canon, and they’re simply Jedi that operate outside of the Council’s control (based on some of the item descriptions in KOTOR and KOTOR 2).
The second has never fit into the philosophy of the Force and has always felt like bad fanfic to me. They’re the Force user that can draw from both sides with seemingly no consequences, which undermines the idea that the dark side is a corruptive force and that the light side is true balance.
The first category is called Wayseekers in canon to differentiate them from the grey Jedi concept.
I hate this Grey Jedi crap and glad its not Canon anymore.
This is the ONLY thing I will ever gatekeep in Star Wars about. They're not canon; they were created by the fandom as a means of explaining "balance". Jedi refers to the name of the people that follow the religion, not the alignment itself. It's no different than saying "Catholic" basically; Additionally, just because you believe in God doesn't make you Catholic, no more than saying you follow the light side instantly makes you a Jedi.
Star Wars is a story of black and white choices; good versus evil, right versus wrong. It isn't about doing the middle of the road stuff; it can't be otherwise everyone would've just done that from the start - Luke would've said "Hey I'll use my anger, fear and aggression to overpower the Emperor and then my dad and I will live happily ever after." No - Vader still would've been committed to the Dark Side and Luke would've never had the completion of his heroes journey . Not only that but it has been expressly stated NUMEROUS times that you can't use both sides of the Force effectively; someone that wants to heal could never possess the power of Force Lightning because their commitment to the Light would be so much greater than the power required in the Dark Side to generate lightning effectively. That's why Rey just ejaculating Force Lightning in Rise of Skywalker is beyond stupid; it makes literally no sense and was used just to showcase her lineage to Palpatine, which ALSO doesn't make sense. Just 'cause your parents could use a Force Ability doesn't inherently mean you can too.
There isn't a Grey Jedi because there doesn't need to be; Ahsoka wasn't a Jedi but still used the Light and remained committed to it throughout her elder years and Qui-Gon WAS a Jedi and just disagreed with the Council's methods on certain things. That doesn't make him less committed to the Light at all.
No.
“Balance” does not mean a force-user should embrace the dark side as much as the light side, because the force is the most heavy-handed good and evil allegory in the history of fiction, second only to the Bible. Dark side users become disfigured, consumed by hatred, and reliant on drawing power from the dark side. THE DARK SIDE. It’s called the DARK side. It’s evil.
“Balance” in the sense of Star Wars as a whole, should mean the light side triumphing over the dark side. Imbalance is when the dark side rises to power. Anakin was destined to bring balance to the force. And he did, when he saved Luke and killed Emperor Palpatine. Remember when Emperor Palpatine died, never to return again? I remember that. Good times. Anyway.
Could you imagine if we strove for “balance” in real life? Helped an elderly person cross the road? Better balance it out by stomping on a frog. Donated to a cancer research charity? Better cancel that out by donating to the westboro baptist church. Recently get married by pledging your love to another? Better go out immediately and sleep with as many strangers as possible to “balance” it out.
The concept of the grey Jedi could make an interesting plot point, but only if done right. I don’t think they could make a Jedi use dark side powers without being consumed by it unless they changed the entire canon of the force. But as for head canon, I believe that the force is strictly two-sided. If you’re not using the force to guide you, you’re drawing power from it and corrupting your life with it.
Grey Jedi = Jedi who doesn't always follow the Council, à la Qui-Gon Jinn? Sure, that's part of the lore (I think the High Republic has recently introduced the term "Wayseeker" which seems similar, if not perfectly co-extensive with the idea, possibly in an attempt to help clear up some confusion over the term "Grey Jedi").
Grey Jedi = Jedi who can use both the Light and Dark Side of the Force without being corrupted? Nope, that flies in the face of how the Force is understood to work. While the Bendu and the Father seem to muck things up a bit, cosmologically, the overwhelming weight of the lore seems to be that it is folly to think you can use the Dark Side without being corrupted by it. The Light = Balance, and the Dark = Imbalance, there's no middle ground to stake out there.
I'll admit, when I was a teenager, I was on-board with the idea of Grey Jedi, as we were starting to see them with characters like Jolee Bindo in KotOR and Jacen/Vergere in NJO -- moral relativism and Jedi who could shoot lightning both seemed cool and edgy (at least compared to the moral absolutism of the series' prior black-and-white approach) to me at the time. In retrospect, though, I'm glad that LucasFilm moved away from that trend, with things like the retcon that Vergere was Sith all along and using her moral relativism to corrupt Jacen.
Black-and-white morality is rarely a part of real life, but I think it fits having it at the core of Star Wars mythology.
I will be the first to outright say no. No, they are not canon.
No. Lame attempt to bastardize the force
I don't think "Grey" Jedi are a thing. I see it almost entirely as Jedi, Sith, and force wielders
So Yoda, Palpatine, Ahsoka or Asajj. There's not a middle of the road. Just two religions and everyone else caught in the middle
Slightly off topic, but maybe someone can enlighten me, are Dark Jedi and Sith the same thing? As in, does every Jedi that loses their path of total purity become a Sith, or is there an extra step?
A catholic is a christian, not all Christians are catholics.
The sith are a particular organization, not everybody who falls to darkness becomes a sith, though they tend to scoop them up for their own purposes or eliminate them as a threat to their status.
Dark Jedi are Jedi who walk the line of falling to either the sith or Jedi, and can fall either way.
Sith are fundamentally different in the sense that they act as they make the force do their will. Doing so makes it so that the force also lashes out upon them, leading to the scaring of the Sith.
Mmmm no since there is no balance in the sense that light and dark must exist. The dark side is a cancer, unnatural. The “light” side isn’t a side. It is the force in its natural and pure state, unadulterated. The closest thing to a “grey” Jedi is someone who doesn’t use the dark side but doesn’t follow the dogmatic views of the jedi
The creators have said there is no gray "Jedi". Jedi is basically like a religion you either are one or you aren't. As for Force users? There still aren't gray ones. You either use the dark side or you don't. George once talked about how being gray doesn't work because of the seductive nature of the dark side. You can't get the quick and easy power without the repercussions. Gray was never anything but a fan made misnomer.
Force neutral users exist. Dark and light are a spectrum.
Grey Jedi are BS. And the grey code makes zero sense, as the force does have a dark and light side, but they can coexist.
Force neutral users, or dark side users that draw on light partially, or whatever other combo are all cannon to me. It may not be considered cannon, but SWTOR's dark side corruption shows this quite well. Some Sith are more corrupted than others, some just have the orange eyes and nothing more.
Grey Jedi are not cannon and are stupid. Just say you want to be a neutral force user, draw on light and dark, Jedi and sith techniques, but Grey Jedi don't exist.
The grey mantra: There is no good without evil" seems like pure Sithness to me.
The Wookie code:
WHRRRAAARGH
WRAHGH
WRAARAGH
WHRRAAAAAA
WRGA
WHRAAGHAA
Nope, not canon. Next!
The light side IS balance. Grey jedi are out of balance, as the dark side is antithetical in every way to the order brought by following the light.
No, they don't. There are people who use the force who don't consider themselves to be a Jedi (Ahsoka) or a sith (Maull post TPM) but these characters are not grey Jedi. Despite no longer considering himself a sith Maul still allows his anger and hate to consume him. Ahsoka does not consider herself a Jedi, but she doesn't given into the dark side. The Jedi at their best are the balanced ones. The dark side is what throws the force off balance almost like a malignant tumor in the force. The problem with the prequel era Jedi is that they become overly dogmatic out of fear of the dark side (ironic).
It isn't Canon and I've always found it to be incredibly cringe
Whenever I see Grey Jedi it always reminds me of the “sigma male grindset” dudes so I think it’s a little cringe
Ah yes, the enlightened centrists of the Jedi
There's a group of jedi that could be called grey jedi that don't adhere to the strict code of those who live and work in the Jedi Temples and listen to the council in legends- they know there shouldn't be any dark side, but they do things pretty differently than those under the council, such as using slugthrowers and their physical abilities in tandem with the force to make themselves faster, stronger, and smarter. They have lightsabers, but they don't stick by them as much as they would other weapons, including using slugthrowers to shoot down the barrels of blasters to render them useless (which, for most jedi under the council, find to be using a weapon offensively, which is where the main usage of lightsabers for jedi comes in- its a weapon that can be used defensively. 'Council jedi' believe that any kind of gun is only an offensive weapon and impossible to be used defensively, which these non-council jedi prove false). It's in legends, but if these are to be considered grey jedi, then I do think they should be canon.
No, because if it says Jedi, it's a Jedi. Apply any color you want here, Red Jedi/Blue Jedi/Yellow Jedi whatever, are all still Jedi. Now if you want to call them a force user, cool. But a Grey Jedi is still a Jedi. An outcast Jedi, is a force user.
I think "Grey jedi" is just a label for an unaligned force user that leans towards the light side. An example being Ahsoka after she leaves the order. Maul after he goes through his transformation during the clone wars would be a dark side example. The term "Grey jedi" itself I think oversimplifies this category of force users. Not Canon
So will Grey start their own religion group and teach kids? Or is it just a excuse for you to use force for your own selfish benefits istead of being guardian of peace and justice.
Grey Jedi are a very cool concept but unfortunately they are definitively not canon as they haven't (to my knowledge) appeared in any canon material.
The Jedi and Sith are separate from the light and dark sides of the force. Those two sides exist before both orders were established. If true balance is just the light side of the force, then why does the dark side exist in the first place?
I always thought a more fun idea was that the jedi code exists as a method of protection.
Like the force is a slippery slope. Un-careful use of the force will cause relatively swift and painful decent into the dark side, culminating in health problems (think how we saw Vader and Palpatine before the prequels). Worse yet, dieing would be next to impossible except through violence so an irresponsible jedi would find themselves living a long, stressful, hateful, loveless life.
Only through strict adherence to the jedi code could force sensitives avoid this fate, but bring with it its own challenges because jedi cannot become attached and thus don't know love either.
I always thought this catch 22 could yield a great star wars romance and had high hopes for aotc but alas, it was not too be.
But yea, this precludes the possibility of a Grey jedi.
Why is their thousands of Jedi yet only two Sith?
Nope. There is no grey in the force, not as Lucas built it. Most people mistake political stance for force alignment especially with Qui-gon Jin and Kyle Katarn. Both of whom are completely servants of the light.
I'm familiar with the Jedi and Sith codes... But where did the text for this "Grey jedi" code come from?
It definitely doesn't feel "canon" but I do like the idea of a grey area that a select few choose to walk...
I think the idea of a Grey Jedi Code stems from a misinterpretation of what that means. Grey Jedi is essentially a colloquialism for a Jedi who bends the rules like Qui Gon, or a Force user who walks the line between the Dark Side and the Light like Ventress. There is no Grey Jedi Order, nor a definition of a proper Grey Jedi. But the idea of what a Grey Jedi is is of course canon and makes sense.
Why are all so-called “Grey” versions of mystical characters like wizards and jedi almost always actually CALLED “Grey” [insert name of magical class/order]?
imo, a "grey jedi" is just a fantasy for fans who want to have a character that is a good guy but still uses the cool parts of the dark side. Which is totally fine, all of star wars is a story, and all stories and meant to evolve and change with their listeners, thats why we have the prequels and sequels and why some love some hate. I consider rogue jedis cannon, like Ashoka, but the way people are talking about grey jedis being this all wise character like the jedi but all powerful like the sith is a little bit bs too me. Provides for an awesome comic or videogame experience, and is an excellent idea, but doesnt really work well in the larger narrative for me. Like force unleashed. Force unleashed is awesome but we could never really have a character as powerful as Starkiller just chilling in the cannon. I think u/ThrawnAgentOfSHIELD (epic username btw) made a really cool point about balance as well. I think that their view of balance is totally right, but I would like to bring up that the balance of light and dark in a force user is like a see saw. Its easier to stay all the way to one side than it is to try and sit in the middle. However, with star wars, they are always talking about a "pull" to the light or dark so it doesnt always work like that, but my point is I think it would be way harder to stay in the middle like that than people think, and you might become so preoccupied with not falling to either side that you would become less powerful anyway.
So, imo, grey jedis are cool concepts, but dont work in the larger narrative, and to me being in the middle wouldnt make a force user more powerful or wiser anyway.
p.s. I think a more cannon friendly concept is rogue jedis like ashoka, also force sensitive but not force using characters like maz kanata are interesting topics too, why dont we talk about them more often?
No, the grey Jedi doesnt exista. Thats is how a true Jedi shoul be. Rhe actual Jedi are an "heresy" created on fear of the darkside
They haven’t been mentioned in any canon sources. Which is perhaps the BEST reason to not consider them canon.
Also: I don’t think they fit all that well with the way the force was portrayed in the OT/PT.
Grey Jedi are for people that don’t want to admit they agree with the evil Sith but want to have force lightning.
So no.
No, it shouldn't be canon.
It works for Legends but let's keep it in legends where things act differently.
From the words of George Lucas, Light Side is balance, not this idea of going in-between.
No its cringe fanfic
Not canon. You either fall or you don't fall.
*canon
Let them live their life if they want to use artillery
The idea of Grey Jedi largely stems from a mistaken view of "balance," in which people see it as two items on a scale, offsetting each other's weight.
The proper view of balance, that most star wars content adheres to, is that of a body or an ecosystem working as intended.
An ecosystem that is untouched and undisturbed is balanced. A body that is healthy and has no illness is balanced. But, if you pollute that ecosystem, or introduce a disease to a body, it is no longer balanced.
Those who would use the dark side are that pollutant or disease. George Lucas himself has even called the Sith a cancer. Those who use the darkside throw the universe out of balance.
So, just as no one can rightfully say that a little bit of trash in the ocean is good for the environment, no one can rightfully say that there needs to be darkness to balance light.
Edit: changed my wording a bit. The darkside itself isn't harmful. It's a natural part of the force that exists alongside the light. But those who use the darkside are where the imbalance comes from. Just like tobacco is a naturally occurring plant that doesn't hurt anything as long as it's left out in the field where it grows, but when humans introduce tobacco into their bodies, it brings harmful results.