I may not support Israel but asymmetric warfare is a bitch and half to fight.
Strange game...
...how about a nice round of chess?
It's hard to play chess with someone who hid all their pieces.
Fuck of a lot easier than playing Ring Around the IED for a decade.
World's been doing it for 2 decades. Longer, if you move the scope wider than the middle east.
Hell, the Roman empire was dealing with insurgency, technically. Napoleon was dealing with it in Spain. Nothing new, just new methods.
Hell, the Roman empire...
Incredibly bad example, given what happens to folks who apply their methods nowadays.
Okay, what we pretend happens to folks who apply their methods, anyway.
I was thinking mostly of germania and the angolo-saxons. Ambushes, destroying infrastructure, taking out supply lines, and stuff like that done by groups who didn't really talk to each other. It is a bit of a stretch, but it was the closest example I could think of from old times.
It was more of making a desert and calling it peace, but ok. Look up what happened after Varrus, and how exactly Romans went about "pacifying" restless population.
but only on the left Rhein side
Solution: Glass the joint.
Islamist "full proof" strategy
- I declare war on the Jews and declare I'll genocide them out of existence.
- I utterly get my shit stomped in.
- I intentionally put my military supplies where all my civilians are to make Israel look bad.
- Useful idiots in western governments feel bad for all the people I dragged into this war and sanction Israel.
- Israel backs off taking even more land from me then it already had.
- Rinse and repeat every few years.
Both if these play off each other. Its how netanyahu and hamas stay in power. They create an enemy out off the other side and fuck everyone over in the process.
You'd think that the extremist would have learned their lesson by now.
I mean, for decades it's been like. Ok, we'll commit a terrorist attack and murder some of them and they'll then obliterate us with extreme prejudice causing a hundredfold more casualties on us than we did to them.
Did anyone, at some point, stop to think that maybe that won't work?
That’s just the thing- that is their goal. They want their own civilians to die- it means more potential recruits and greater sympathy overseas.
And unfortunately, we’re playing right into it.
Yeah. They want an overreaction, because violent crackdowns turn neutral people into sympathisers, and sympathiser into supporters. At the same time, it eroded support for the side doing the crackdown.
That said, the events that invite the retaliation will swing things the other way at first. The goal of any protest or insurgent movement is to cause as big an overreaction as they can (while still surviving), with as little provocation as possible.
Build that sympathy.
Unless you mean supporting Israel more and without any question unlike Ukraine then you are right, we are playing into it.
Otherwise, I'm confused as the only real opposition comes from some protestors without any direct power.
Everybody is either fine watching or outright supporting the Israeli operation.
i mean, to be fair, it's a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship based on not one or two, but THREE different religions holy text.
Hamas: Allah will save us during this holy war
Israel: God is with us, this is our Holy land
Fundamentalist Evengelicals: It's the start of the fucking rapture, WOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
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You're implying hamas actually cares about palestinians. They don't, they only care about hamas.
You're assuming the entire group is a perfectly rational actor. Especially on the lower levels, that is probably not the case.
causing a hundredfold more casualties on us than we did to them
They left a mark, didn't they? Can probably spend a decade milking it. Especially with how elegantly the return casualties got induced.
Maybe Hamas somehow gets wiped out, but even then, it's successor will have ample recruitment opportunities.
They looked at the international community and decided oh yes, this is absolutely working. OP and everyone like him is complicit.
Sorry, still gunna question the police for firing a hellfire through the bank hostage to get to the robber behind them... in the bank lobby full of the other hostages.
Do you like Star Wars?
Care to apply the same logic to that setting?
Do you think Iran sends money and weapons to people who logic their way to the eradication of every Jew on the planet and every infidel after?
Allah left the Palestinians on read
At minimum, you're in the wrong sub.
Indeed we're getting too credible.
This is the wrong kind of not credible
Ah yes they should go the "be nice to people slaughtering you" route. Then the extremist beliefs have no reason to exist so you will pretend they don't exist.
if only the jews had been nicer to the nazis... /s
Nooo the Jews fighting back radicalized the Nazis how dare the Jews
Novel idea I know but maybe clear out the building with people.
Fallujah wasn't exactly leveled by the end of it and we too, to the best of my memory refrained from sending hospitals, places of worship, and schools (the places civilians normally run to as the opposite of military targets) 500kg explosive care packages from orbit.
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While antisemitism certainly plays a significant role, continually oppressing the Palestinian people will do nothing to improve relations between Israel and Palestine.
You shouldn't capitulate to the grievances of the terrorists, you should examine what grievances of the general populace gave rise to such extremist beliefs in the first place. Addressing those should be your first point, because as long as they go untouched then nothing can improve short of beating the civilian population into submission. Which is the route Israel seems to currently be taking.
The Palestinian populace have said it over and over, Israel's existence is a non starter. They want to take "their" land back.
Addressing those should be your first point, because as long as they go untouched then nothing can improve short of beating the civilian population into submission.
What you're saying is that Israel should beat the Palestinians into submission. The Palestinians demand something that Israel can't ever give them, and so what else is there to do with them?
Except what causes the greivances is antisemitism and a want to genocide the Jews.
Israel has offered Palestine a state multiple times. The sticking point is always that an Israel state also exists.
Yea Israel isnt perfect, but Arabs were killing Jews for simply being in Israel well before Israel existed. Libels about Jews accessing their holiest spot caused pogroms.
The Palestinian movement in Palestine is not a land back movement, its a religious one. Israel cant capitulate because doing so means ethnic cleansing of jews from their home.
So the only way to avoid an ethnic cleansing is another ethnic cleansing? Because that’s the only way it can end with no compromise on the side of Israel. I don’t really see the downside in at least putting more effort into finding a middle ground, or more realistically supporting a group more willing to coexist out of pragmatism. Worst case scenario your back at square one and go back into attack mode, best case scenario you have one less knife at your throat.
HAMAS doesn't get billions in funding from Arab countries like Iran to find the middle ground and coexistence.
Israel has tried to compromise so many fucking times. Its part of the reason Israel is so right wing now, the left got absolutely clowned by the Palestinians.
Gaza was a comprimise. Israel literally gave Gaza to the Palestinians.
This whole fucking war is due to Israel comprimising.
Well that’s what’s going to have to happen if they want this to end. Which frankly speaking is admittedly the call of Israeli people. Im not going to say it’s fair that the cost of clean hands is shaking bloody ones, but that’s what it’s going to take.
Israel is so right wing right now because bombing palestinians is cognitively easier than admitting Israel has done anything wrong, as the amount of wrongs Israel does keeps growing exponentially.
It's not like you really want to say out loud "my government is starving babies to death".
Gaza was not a compromise - Gaza was a unilateral withdrawal after being hounded out. Just like the continuing and expanding stealing of land in the West Bank is not a compromise.
Honestly, if a little ethnic cleansing is the only solution, so be it.
They can kill as many people as they want, it’s still not going to make them any safer.
Because Arab countries supply more weapons and fighters to keep it going.
I don't think capitulation is the solution here, but clearly what we've BEEN doing hasn't been working either. We need to think of something else
But it has been working. Over 70 years, Israel went from "rump state that is nearly annihilated by a coalition of neighboring countries" to "regional power with normalized relations with the most relevant of their previous enemies", while slowly but reliably integrating territory that was originally their rival's.
Another 70 more years of not working like that and, from the river to the sea, Israel will be free (of Palestinians)
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15d
I would say yeah
I feel like people on both ends on this conversation miss the fact that both sides have legit reasons to exist and to hate the other side
Cycle of hate and all that
The issue is that making one side calm down will cuase the other to exploit it and vice versa
The issue is that the bickering basically leads to nothing
Israel offered solutions and were denied
But Israel is also colonizing land
Plaestine has civillains
But Palestine also has terrorists and a population with extreme beliefs
The whole issue is that no matter what Israel does the cycle will repeat
The only thing Israel have going for them is a stronger military and being better at spinning the narrative so that they are seen as the good guys
I would say this conflict was doomed to shit the moment the UK decided it was a good idea to dump all the jews in a area where no one likes them.
I would say this conflict was doomed to shit the moment the UK decided it was a good idea to dump all the jews in a area where no one likes them.
Was there anywhere to send the Jews where people would have liked them?
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Non-credible is suggesting the middle east will suddenly get along without the jews. The only hate the jews a little bit more than they hate one another.
Fair
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They can keep the nukes I never said they can't lmao
You seem awfully triggered at a joke
I am saying the whole point is that living next to a bunch of countries that don't want you to exist is not very ideal and it just leads to wars and genocides both Jews dying and also literally everyone else
Having them be somewhere in the middle of the ocean means they finally get left alone and it also makes it hard to invade them incase anyone ever tries something again
But somehow all you saw from that one comment is "We must oppese Palestinians, Jews bad!"
So no YOU f off with this delusional ass BS. What? So every person you speak to is either in the right or are antisemetic terrorist supporters??? What kind of world do you live in???
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Here in Ukraine people support Israel. Russians who against war in Ukraine also support Israel. There are many reasons why this is happening. But my favorites, why people do not support/protest for Ukraine like they protest against Israel? Hypocrisy. Rather they support any russian regardless of their view on russian aggression.
I could say more, but i do not want to get banned here. Because this thread is the same, will get closed soon after mod appears.
I don't need to protest for Ukraine because my government supports you guys already.
I fully support Ukraine. The Israel-Palestine thing is more complicated. Israel has acted in a way that was almost sure to breed terrorists, then they got attacked by absolute savage terrorist attacks, now they go back to step 1.
It's like a devil's cycle, all while many states in the region still wish to destroy it.
Tbh Gaza was Egyptian before 1967, even then the Palestinians were 'river to the sea' the plo, precursor to fatah and hamas even had the current state of Israel on their flag.
Israel was going to have a problem regardless of what they did. But y'know several actual genocidal wars (yes the arab v israel wars were about that from the muslim side) against them kinda made them what they are.
If your neighbours want your entire race gone you better be the hardest motherfucker in the hood.
Israel doing what every country is doing. Complicating only is time and people are easy to forget. Israel wants sovereignty, Palestinians want sovereignty. In terms of logic they both have that right. There is one issue. Palestianisns do not want to coexists. Undeniable truth. When someone says Israel should cease to exist, it is bollocks. No sense to continue to discuss. But i did not hear from anyone that Palestine should cease to exist. Hatred accumulates because of vicious cycle of death. There are many choices what and how to fix it. But religious fanatics of Arab world do not want any of it. And Civilians on bith sides are dying. And here is my point, who gives a shit about russian civilians, when i am about to die? My life is priceless, i do not compare it to hundreds of russians. And i do not want comparing at all, just stop it the war. But if they don't, i can not say "i will save my humanity before i die". Because i do not care. I want to live.
So cryings about civilians of agressor side is not logical. Mistreating locals? Palestianins had all instruments in the world to stop it. Like president Zelenskyi publicly inform about anything what is happening in Ukraine because of russia agression.
After research, i did not see that Palestine Gaza was epitome of democracy and freedom and etc. Why Gaza strip was created at all? The same issue.
And now, when stakes became so high, Palestine will lose again, and lose territory.
Like world helping Ukraine(which I criticize too), like Arab world is helping Palestinians. And see the difference.
I'm not 100% sure I understood everything you tried to say but:
Unlike the Russian invasion of Ukraine, I don't see a direct aggressor here. Both Israeli and Arabs (in this case including the surrounding states) have done unjustified things to each other. I don't see the terrorist attacks as a reason to retaliate a hundred-fold (as they have already done).
The believe to solve this with overwhelming violence is quite futile (here).
It may be possible for Isael to fully conquer all of Palestine and displace the Palestinians, but the displaced and the hate from all other Arabs around would ensure the terror never ends.
Numerous times, after ww2 Israel was attacked. Before ww1 and ww2, empires, colonies existed. We can't judge or change what happened before. Same with indigenous people in North America. What America can do now and change the past ? Nothing.
All agressors against Israel are religious extremists. People became compassionate towards loser side, even if they kill those who support them. Mind boggling. Ukraine have no support from ultra leftists , because THE USA support us. So the formula looks like (Ukrainian obviously righteousness) x (American non-negotiable democracy) = 0 support (what i mean, there is a support, but not active as compared to support Palestinians)
Also "mistreated local population for DECADES". This narrative out of the russian books. If we look at Eastern history, massacre after massacre. What fixed it? The same way as Israel does. But there was another solution, but everyone wants to destroy Israel. Things does not work like that.
The USSR funded the PLO when it started in the 70s and Arafat was hand-picked and trained by the KGB to lead it. It's not a coincidence you feel this sounds like a Russian narrative!
The collateral damage has only really been a problem in Gaza yeah the plo would cry whenever Israel bombed one of their bases in Jordon Syria or Lebanon that Israel killed civilians but they never actually set up their bases next to civilians when they tried to take Beirut it was also a problem but even hezbulah doesn’t put ammo dumps in hospitals Hamas is just more evil
people in gaza lived fine before hamas.
who built their houses?
Are you suggesting Israel has a monopoly on the hidden knowledge of building construction?
people in gaza lived fine before hamas.
Uh...how are we defining "fine," here?
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Who bombed them?
Edit: downvote away. Who is flattening apartment buildings and universities? You know, civilian targets. The IDF I believe. Flatten homes for dozens to kill a few Hamas dick heads. I don't see how this will have any long term consequences at all.
Who is launching rockets from them? You know, doing a war crime that removes protection from civilian objects.
So Israel can stoop to Hamas' level? Hamas did it so Isreal can?
Launching attacks from civilian areas = war crime
Use of non-targeted munitions = war crime
Using targeted munitions to destroy missile bases in civilian areas =/= war crime
Israel isn't stooping to Hamas's level at all
yes, what are you not getting about this?
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maybe don't cross a border to slaughter 1300 innocent people.
belgium doesn't do that shit, no one is invading belgium. why can't gaza be more like belgium? if you don't want war, don't start one. atleast then when someone else decides to start a war in your place of the world, you can have the moral highground.
how many israeli's would be dead if israel did not have iron dome?
FFS, look back a few decades. Look at how the Israelis treat them. Terrorism is never right but they have a good reason to be mad.
Just don't look back more than like 5 years or you'll see all the resolutions ignored, rockets launched, terror attacks committed, or if you go then further then literal wars.
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1) mistreat some of the locals. There are definitely both local Israelis and local Arab Israelis that are not getting the same treatment
2) This goes both ways. After all Israel started as militia groups.
Hey it's non credible defense not non credible spelling, so please spell "fool proof" correctly next time
I dunno I kinda like "full proof." It goes 80 proof, 100 proof, 120 proof, full proof. It's the Everclear of shit posts.
That looks pretty familiar.
How detached must you be from reality to believe this to be the situation?
Nice try, Putin.
Am I the only person that think the Idea that "Israel bombing Hamas will only cause more Palestinians to join them" sounds kind of Racist?
Like, do you think that the Palestinians seeing their friends and family blowing up by joining Hamas will only radicalize them to join Hamas even more? Instead of learning from the past and trying a different approach?
It feels like that argument gives the Palestinians no autonomy, as if they're just naturally predisposed to terrorism and it's the Jew's fault for causing them to blow themselves up at diners.
I dunno, just seems kind of Racist to not think the Palestinians can learn from the past and NOT JOIN A TERRORIST ORGANISATION.
But maybe that's just me, idk.
I... Think that's just you, TBH. Death and destruction breeds radicalism everywhere. Being bombed has been known to increase civilian moral, even. It would only be racist if bombing the shit out of someone in such a way had actually worked once somewhere to do what you're saying it should do
sounds kind of Racist?
Racist? It's insurgency 101. Hell, the fucking Partisans engaged in it, and you gotta be real deep into phrenology for that to become a race question.
Israel gets away with too much shit. It’s apparently antisemitism to be against Israel or voice opposition to their policies.
It's antisemitism to be against the existence of Israel because it is the only country that protects jews. And it has to do a lot of protecting. They're fighting terrorists who target civilians and use human shields. That is not Israel's choice. It's antisemitism to think jews evil because they are forced to deal with a problem that you would do worse at. I don't know where you're from but I could say your country HAS done far worse than Israel and I'd probably be right.
You'd never blame yourself for getting that many people killed for your own protection. You don't really care that there's probably 50x that many dead in Syria. You don't care about Uyghurs in China, which is probably as bad as Nazi style genocide. You literally can't even count how many dead resulted from the Iraq war, which was started on false pretenses.
"noooo not true I do care about all of that" no, you don't, you put zero effort into that shit. But Israel is attacked and forced to defend itself and compared to any of that it does far less damage to the enemy population, and that's enough to get you to be against the country? Antisemitism. I see no other explanation.
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Fuck off with that bullshit, ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing no matter the context, you’re coping hard for shit the likes of Russia does and routinely gets condemned for.
Hamas commits terrorist attacks, Israel responds consistently by bombing civilians/neighborhoods/hospitals trying to kill said terrorist group and blockaids the region, only to ensure the radicalization of the population while strengthening the hand of said terrorists in the long run.
Worst yet Israel then elects an extremist leadership that relies on the hardcore elements of the population to retain power at the expense of national unity between the different demographics by promoting settlements and laws that’s bordering on apartheid for the Palestinians living in Israel proper.
It’s not antisemitism to be against Israel policy. Israel does NOT represent the whole Jewish community. I know this shit personally. You clearly do not.
"noooo not true I do care about all of that" no, you don't, you put zero effort into that shit.
The fuck am I supposed to do about Syria? Should I write to Assad and tell him to stop the war now? No. That won't do shit.
You know what will do shit? Writing to Biden and telling him to stop giving military aid to Israel. It won't do much, but its something.
Its not antisemitic to think Israel is being far too careless in their handling of the war in Gaza. I'm not advocating to push all Jews into the sea when I say that Israel should care more and face more repercussions when they kill civilians. Israel has been oppressing Palestinians for years and years. Does that mean Hamas is cool and justified? Fuck no, they're disgusting. But that doesn't give Israel the right to bulldoze their way through the entire Gaza Strip without a care in the world for whats in their path.
Let me know when your letters end the war
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That line is pure cope and you know it because you can’t actually make an argument
And them crying antisemitism and citing the Holocaust makes many afraid to criticism them, no matter what they do.
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I mean you’re not wrong but it’s more complicated than that
Yeah sorry, this is a CIA-ass subreddit. Israel can do as much genocide as it likes as far as the people here are concerned, it's the wrong target audience for this meme.
Genocide isn't "when I lose at urban warfare"
I see Russia is winning urban warfare then by removing the urban?
Phyrric victories
Or, perhaps maybe, Israel should stop using civilians as meat shields. Maybe both sides are bad (wild, i know), and not wanting to support terrorists is good
Lmao, both sides are bad, I don't support hamas, but you must realise that this subreddit thinks that Israel are the good guys right? You're literally already being downvoted for saying that... (or maybe it's the freudian slip at the start of your comment)
Yeah, that was definitely a fuckup, but if the people here are dumb enough to not know what I’m talking about then I’m siding with you, I’ll be fucking damned before I think about what I’m writing on this garbage website. I have, however, anecdotally seen people not entirely siding with Israel, just seeing them as generally better then hamas by a decent bit, which is a fair assumption
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Nothing you just said is true or makes sense
Yes, colonial powers, notably and specifically terrible starting in 1948.
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This is a credible strategy. I expect the mods will lock this thread in 15 minutes.
Russia bad any other new news?
Fortunately there is only one way to look at this.
I like how this is supposed to be an Israeli thing but the U.S played this game for like 3 decades
And rightfully started getting shit for it almost as soon as they said they were gonna do the thing
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Guy's you're free to clown on this guy all you want, but their meme is within the rules.
It does scratch R9, but they wrote 4 text bubbles and inserted a PNG, so it barely passes.