Kennismigrant (high skill immgrant) thoughts on new right-wing cabinet?

Dutch here in an international workspace, and previously studies. In my opinion there is a big problem with the expectations vs reality of international students and KMs. You can definitely live and survive in NL with English only and without speaking one word Dutch. However, you will never be included in the Dutch daily life due to the language barrier. Dutch is the national language and the native language for the majority of people in NL. I don’t think that is clearly communicated to people immigrating to NL, as we see these type of posts daily here and many international students/colleagues have the same expectations. It is up to you if you want to integrate in the Dutch community by learning the language or if you’re okay with not integrating and just staying in the international bubble. The expectations about the language barrier are not the reality. People can speak English but prefer Dutch. Even if you want to change that, it’s not going to happen in the near future. If you want to be included in the Dutch community, you will have to learn the language.

I also moved here as a HSM and my experience couldn’t be more opposite than yours. I find the Dutch to be very welcoming, inviting, and friendly. I have lots of pleasant conversations in English on the street (once they hear me struggling with my Dutch, which is coming along…), and my colleagues (both Dutch and international) are almost all both warm and professional.

I get that Dutch society is “colder” than some others in that people going about their business in public tend to keep to themselves a little more, but only a little…and it doesn’t take anything at all to break the ice.

I see so much negativity online about everywhere I’ve lived, and definitely quite a bit about the Netherlands. But you’d think every place was the worst place on earth if you go to the local subreddits. I can’t tell whether it’s confirmation or selection bias on the internet, but what I have learned from my IRL travel and living is this:

You get back what you put in. If you’re a miserable or inflexible person, you’re probably going to experience that in kind almost anywhere. If you’re open and warm to others, you’ll find no shortage of kind people in any corner on earth.

Of course I don’t mean to suggest anything about you personally OP, but this is just something I’ve noticed increasingly in recent years. I hope you find home, wherever that is.

Dutch here.

I truly hope the new government does not f*ck up expat rules any more than they’ve already done. We need more younger people, not only in high tech. We have an aging population and many vacancies are hard to fill in.

Not speaking Dutch is a big handicap tho. Even though most Dutch people speak English on a conversational level, pretty much everyone prefers to speak Dutch. If truly believe your perspective on the coldness of Dutch people will change if you speak the language. A lot of nuances just get lost in translation. It is correct that most Dutch people establish their friend group when in middle school or university, but this does not differ in most other countries. If you want to connect, you should join an association of something that interests you and try to speak Dutch. You will definitely make friend there.

I understand that it is very hard, and universities should put Dutch in the curriculum for international students. But it should be your highest priority after graduating, besides keeping your job of course. A lot of employers offer Dutch courses or have a budget for this, might be worth looking in to.

I don’t think moving to another country will yield better experiences on this part. I’m an expat myself and have lived in multiple EU countries, most other countries don’t gather this much towards non-native speakers.

I think the public opinion currently is not hate towards expats rather not seeing the value of having high skilled migrants versus the burden they bring. While most of the hate is directed towards non-refugee and false-refugee low skilled migrants.

The benefits are largely for the bigger corporations who get tax cuts and state benefits while the expats themselves put pressure on our housing market and medical care system all while receiving tax cuts themselves as well. People who can’t find housing and struggle to feed their families give zero fucks about keeping ASML, Booking etc in the Netherlands.

The right wing has played this off as all foreigners are to blame, and executed the classic finger pointing and “us first” approach.

Woke, inclusivity etc are now labeled as leftist propaganda that has lead to every imaginable problem.

Know that a big portion of the country does not buy into the right wing stories. I can only speak for myself as Dutch person, I value good friends and treasure them but am admittedly not easy to make friends with if the people don’t share my interests and hobbies.

I'm kennismigrant as well and I just don't give a shit about whom doesn't want me here. I find sometimes welcome Dutch people and some times shitty people As the rest of the world.

I am going to stick to the work part of your story.

I work in a very international company (I am Dutch btw) with lots of people that don't, hardly or don't want to speak Dutch. The Dutch natives are in the majority, but we still switch to English as soon as a non Dutch speaker joins. I speak more English than Dutch in a day. I really have to make a concious effort for the few non natives that want to speak Dutch to do so, the switch to English is almost automatic. I honestly do find it very strange and mildly annoying that people living here for 5-10 years or even longer don't speak Dutch (or some do, but just don't want to at work, because it takes more effort), but we still accomodate them. Just like your story, my story is n=1. From my point of view the workculture at your office is not okay, but that doesn't mean that it is the case everywhere. You have a few options: leave it as it is, learn Dutch or find a better job.

Had a discussion with my partner last night and we are planting the seeds for an exit plan now. Moved here a year and a half ago, I for an international organization and they are a professor teaching in a technical field. Both of us qualified for the 30% ruling and our relocation packages paid for our Dutch classes up to B1 already. We recently got our permanent contracts as well. And yes, our work is entirely in English (and French) and our colleagues are 99.8% international based in Amsterdam.

It feels a lot like being in the US after the 2016 election.

You can't win even if you are a kennismigrant ("one of the good ones!"). The xenophobia in the country is unreal. Making too little and you're undercutting Dutch wages, not working and you're a parasite, making too much and you're blamed for inflation and buying up all the houses, etc. They do not want outsiders here and that has been made abundantly clear. The one difference for high-skilled migrants is that we can move across the world, not speaking the local language, and still out-competing the local labour pool. You can of course fill those jobs will less-qualified people, and in the long run you have a poorer, less innovative, more inward-looking country. And that's not a place we want to live in the long term.

What the hell is hardcore Engineering LMAO

I think there's a big difference in interactions in Randstad v rest of Netherlands, too. I hear of more positive everyday interactions from two international friends in DB, Eindhoven, Arnhem. That being said, both were harassed or assaulted in the past half year (both PoC, one gay).

I put enthusiastic effort into learning the language, doing more than 95% of other tech workers - who don't have to do inburgering, anyway - and feel like the better I get, the further the ladder gets pulled up out of reach. It hasn't helped with warmth, and my experiences of friendship with Dutch people have been fairweather.

The xenophobia and right-wing talking points (that the liberal left are starting to adopt) really does remind me of US circa 2016.

I agree with you OP, the rhetoric doesn't jive with the hard facts about the labor market, the associated companies, and the related taxes.

Me as a general pro migration/fact based person have this to respond to your post. Your post, might be emotionally charged, which I can understand.

But it gives me the vibe "I am only here because of the job/salary". If that is the reality you are going to find yourself in this position wherever that search for the next cool job/pay rise takes you. If you do not also check out whether you might like a country by it's other offerings than just the job/salary you are going to run into the same issues in Spain, Mexico wherever really.

Just learn Dutch

I guess that the language makes all the difference. Living in the country without speaking the language and feeling not welcome sometimes... Well, who might have thought that something like this could happen? Sorry for being ironic, but this is clearly your only problem.

Hello,

Dutch native speaker here. I have been working in an international setting for quite a number of years. I speak 5 languages. I worked in the Uk, Germany, Belguim, France, Switserland and Italy. If i had only spoken english i would not have succeeded in my tasks.

I dont speak italian. The job in that country was my worst experience. In all other countries i had better results because of my language skills. You cannot skip that factor and rely on people in your environment mastering english. In The Netherlands lots of people do speak engish, compared to other countries.

If you would go to France to work, we all agree it is a must to speak french. It is a give and take thing. You would all look strange if i start to speak Dutch in New York.

So if you think of leaving, it is in my opinión a ‘zwaktebod’.

I am HSM working for International company.

In the global office that I work in, the Dutch locals are actually quite the minority. But the locals who are in my team or who I work with are all very professional and mixing well with the rest of the expats. Never have I felt being discriminated.

I live in mostly white neighborhood, they are too, welcoming and friendly. There is one or two who are rather cold, but never have they disturb me or anything like that. I participated in the neighborhood parties/events and we get along well so far. None are close friends, but also no one disturbed me.

The bad experiences/harasssment that I had in this country is actually from immigrants and not from the white Dutch. That's why I understand the resentment against immigrants. The few bad apples paint bad picture to the rest of us.

There's already a lot of comments here but here's my take. I started off as a highly skilled migrant, learned Dutch and now have a permanent residence card. I've been living here for about 13-14 years.

It does really depend on where you live and work. I do have friends who have had the same experience as you but I also have friends who have had the opposite experience. My own experience has been somewhere in the middle. I think there are a few things you should consider:

1. You're probably not going to have a lot in common with the Dutch person who doesn't have any international friends, who never really left the area they were born in, and/or who never lived abroad. These types are also working in international environments, because the Netherlands is a pretty globalized economy, whether the Dutch like it or not, so these people can't be entirely avoided. So when seeking out relationships/friendships, etc, spend your time finding those that have common life experiences/interests as you. The great thing about the Dutch being so literal and direct is that you can identify the ones you want to have a friendship with pretty quickly and ignore the ones that don't and not have to feel bad about it.

2. Learning the language does help and it will open up more doors and make life easier. It does take a while, I think it was after 4-5 years until they would finally reply to me back in Dutch. Though I still do laugh every time a Dutch person complains about Expats who've lived here for 15-20 years, who don't speak Dutch. While these expats are annoying, if the Dutch want more of their immigrants to speak Dutch, then all of Dutch society should sit in a circle and have the discussion to stop switching to English or have a bit more patience when speaking to non-native Dutch speakers.

3. Really consider where you are living and working. It might just be a case of finding another job or a place to live. The Netherlands is a small country but the 'culture' can differ quite enormously dependent on the city you live in. Again, the Dutch are extremely literal and it's what you see is what you get, no in between. So if you're in a crappy work or living environment, it's probably not going to change so consider switching it up. From your background it could be relatively easy because I assume there's still a high demand for what you're doing, and you can probably manage to move. Yes it might take some work, time, and money but it could be worth it and easier than having to move to another country, which brings me to my final point.

4. And I think this is probably the most important point. Your current experience here could potentially be the same experience no matter where you live (for the most part). After all, we're living in a different country, interacting in a different language, and having to interact with a different culture. No matter where you go, it really is what you can make of it. So instead of thinking of moving to another country, sometimes it is the luck of the draw and you just have to figure out a way to change it. And though I do find the Dutch annoying from time to time, I do enjoy the fact that I don't have to drink the Dutch kool-aid too much in order to enjoy my life here.

Good luck!

Expats on this sub are very pretentious. You really think the Dutch population is going to support an infinte amount of immigration? Even when they can't afford a home themselfs? That is a really dumb stance to take in all honesty.

“I am in hardcore engineering” 🤣🤣

only like 20% of the non-EU migrants are HSM and I seriously dont think they'll up it from 5 to 10, there is a reason why lot of turks and indians and north/south americans are opting for NL and i dont feel like they'd want to lose these folk to UK or DE or other similar countries

I’m here with my spouse on his KSM visa, and we’re in the process of doing our integration exams. he’s finished his, I’m close behind.

Here’s the thing: even in Canada, they’re foaming at the mouth over “them foreigners taking our jobs.” its a global thing at the moment. NL isn’t really different or magical in that regard. The best thing to do? Let them froth. I didn’t see any of my fam in canada stepping up to take those jobs they howled about immigrants doing.

As it was, my grandparents moved from NL to canada so…in a way I did come right back where I’m from. ( that snark usually stops people from bitching a bit). Should I be fluent after 5 years? I wish, but between covid, working, parenting, and every last place that teaches dutch running close to 700 euro a course, it wasn’t really feasible. I’ll get there. I know enough that when i heard the HR woman at my last job whining in dutch how she hates non dutch speakers, I was able to look at her and go “ik hoorde dat.”

people have always whined about the foreigners. Canada isn’t just naturally more social. I have a bigger social group here that I see more often ( a mix of nederlanders and expats and perm residents) than i did in canada. Also, canada’s either freezing or on fire lately and i want none of that.

The one difference is I really do blend in. because,…well, i look dutch. But very few people give me stick over not being fluent. You’ll get there. But its human to be wary of “outsiders” and politicians are really riding that show pony of an idea lately.

keep learning, and don’t pay the rest any mind.

I also want to point out again that in tech industry, the local dutch cannot fulfill the market in hardcore tech

Is this true? Arent we lacking "poorly educated people".

The language-thing is a bit complicated. Dutch people (mostly) are obviously more comfortable speaking their own language in their own country, which makes perfect sense. However, it does exclude international colleagues.

I don’t know if it’s done on purpose by your colleagues. I previously worked at a renowned (international) law firm which often had international secondees, and during lunch we often spoke Dutch as well, out of habit, until somebody remembered we had an international colleague at our table.

It’s the same at the bank im currently working. It’s not bad intent.

As a native, you didn't ask me. So let me just say that this is probably one of the most frequently asked questions on this sub. We see daily posts from disappointed foreigners. You shouldn't have trouble finding likeminded people.

So yes, a lot of your fellow expats and immigrants agree: the Dutch can be unwelcoming and cold, public opinion towards foreigners is trending downwards, and the country is not as great as it might seem at first glance.

That's the way it is. Whether that means you want to try your luck in a different country is up to you.

I’ve lived in six countries and NL is more exposed to international markets than most. This change won’t end well—either PVV will backtrack as firms like ASML pull out, or we will see a (smaller) brexit/Liz Truss temper tantrum.

Low quality Dutch workers don’t make themselves attractive to ASML by banning foreign experts. They make leaving attractive.

they would speak in Dutch and ignore me most of the time, also during lunch and other occasions

Well you have had three years to learn some dutch, that helps a lot when having casual conversations... Even when you're busy. If I go and study in Spain, or another random country, they DO expect me to learn the local language, don't they?

Also, tech people and sales generally don't mix too wel, imho.

I am a Dutch native but I work with a lot of kennismigranten. There is generally a big gap in personality and interests between common Dutch office workers and kennismigranten. A Dutch kennismigrant would probably also have issues making friends with the more common people in another country. Dont forget you probably belong to the top 1% of earners in this country...

What stings for many Dutch that dont have the capabilities to become "hardcore engineers" and that it is very hard for them to make a good living. Prices go up for rent, taxes are increased and then there is Sunil who makes 200k a year and gets 30% of taxes + his employer pays for moving and sometimes housing. People feel bitter about this. You would probably feel the same if you were in that position.

Lastly most issues people have with migrants are with the increase in street crime due to recent waves of people coming from north Africa and middle East. A lot of fake refugees and just wandering criminals doing street robberies, breaking in, doing drugs, intimidation etc. Some get arrested everyday. Here a group of people is really messing it up for a much larger group. I know Reddit defends these people with heart claiming this doesnt exist but you can see this everyday on our streets and really feel the sentiment in many people. Including lots of non Dutch people. Something here really needs to change.

Most of the HSMs feel similar things. At least, I, personally, feel quite concerned since this election and looking to ways of relocating when it is possible. However, being foreign is always hard in any country in the world. Rise of right-wing is not limited to NL. Check the other subs, you will see similar posts to yours.

the bad migrant make the good migrant look bad.

the problem is the illegal and low job qualified migrants that are comming to the netherlands and expect to take their families with them. you are currently scale with them.

I'll be honest and say it kinda sucks to work at a dutch company, they then hire 1 expat, and suddenly everyone needs to speak english all day every day or the expat feels excluded.

Like people aren't so childish to gossip about you. They're just having a chat that noone else needs to be involved in.

If you're discouraged to learn the language because the locals aren't welcoming foreigners who dont speak the language with open arms, I think you're going to be discouraged everywhere

If you consider everyone around you to be an asshole then perhaps its time to get a mirror.

As a Dutchmen who’s lived abroad, I think there’s quite a bit of misunderstandings at play, both regarding Dutch people as well as living abroad in general.

First, Dutch may be very close to English, allowing a relatively high skill of the language, but this does not mean that all people are especially comfortable speaking English. Its surprisingly common to run into people that do not know how to have a conversation in English, or feel insecure about their level of skill in the language.

Secondly I’d like to point out that in my experience moving abroad is not easy at all. I don’t know if this is your first experience living abroad, but I have personally found it to be an extremely exhaustive. It requires a lot of initiative to build a life. i understand that it was challenging for you to balance studies and integration (with regards especially to language learning), but its obviously not really an excuse for your current struggles. You can’t expect a whole culture to adopt to your wishes cause you didn’t or couldn’t take out the time to learn the language. I personally would not move to a country of which I don’t speak the language.

I think a lot of frustration on the part of right wing parties is not the fact that there are internationals, but rather that they ignore or reject local customs (once again including the language), choose to life in a sort of parallel society and strongly maintain their own national identities.

You better be packing your bags because everything is gonna change drastically! This time, the promises of politicians will come true, trust me!

  I think top tier companies like Uber, ASML, booking, etc. would consider moving soon.

Good. I hate how large corporations (be it farmers or tech) holding our nation hostage to prevent meaningful change. Now I don't expect this brown shirt coalition to bring the change I'm after, but it's time politicians started to cater to the people first.

It is also a matter of interest. I work a lot with all kinds of people non native Dutch. I don't mind that at all. I do approach them first in Dutch. If they can't follow I will switch. Not problem. Problem is that.i sometimes work with people that have been here for more than five years and still don't speak Dutch. That is their problem, not mine. I also find people that haven been here for only a year and are at least able to have a conversation I. Dutch. If they need to search for words no problem, they try. I have a lot more patience with them than with the ones that stay in their bubble. If I have to go to another country to work I want to learn their language also.

Kennismigrant here. NL is garbage place to migrate for knowledge work. Have family and gf here so easiest way to get a visa.

Kennismigrant visas are given out like candy anyway. Salary requirements way too low.

Just move to another country that won't rob you with excessive taxes, reduce your QOL in every aspect possible in the name of "equality" and where you have to live in a tiny box.

Lots of people saying how dutch people are cold and not inclusive. Even the crazy leftist ones (99% of all women in the randstad) are super inclusive and have made every attempt possible to involve me. If this is you arguing otherwise, you have a skill issue. Annoys me having to schedule in every social appointment with datumprikker 6 months in advance.

Some double-standards comments like "yeah, you are paying 10x tuition fee but you still owe the Dutch tax payer money" really annoy me.
Do your math ! If charging 10x tuition fee towards non-EU studends still does not make the math work, then you have a serious problem. International students pay the agreed amount of tuition fee to come here to study, they don't owe the Dutch government, especially you as a single person, anything.
The reason I am being annoyed is that those dutch people complaint that life is too easy for expats while complaining that their quality of life is not good not enough, while trying to hide the fact that they problaby have the better starting hands after all.
How many of Dutch students refuse to graduate becaue it is much cheaper to have the student status and have a cheaper rent, compared to graduate and face the reality ? So you criticize that international students who already pays 10x tuition fees is taking advantage of Dutch tax payer's money while you selectively neglect the former ?

All of us are here for the job opportunities. There pros, but also so many cons to living in the Netherlands and no will to improve the known issues. The Dutch created a good rewarding system to take advantage of other dumb states’ systems that bring up good students but do not give them opportunities. I swear all internationals will tell you this. Sure, there’s clean air, bike lanes and all that stuff, but so much is wrong with this country and people are only staying for work.

I am going to stick to the work part of your story.

I work in a very international company (I am Dutch btw) with lots of people that don't, hardly or don't want to speak Dutch. The Dutch natives are in the majority, but we still switch to English as soon as a non Dutch speaker joins. I speak more English than Dutch in a day. I really have to make a concious effort for the few non natives that want to speak Dutch to do so, the switch to English is almost automatic. I honestly do find it very strange and mildly annoying that people living here for 5-10 years or even longer don't speak Dutch (or some do, but just don't want to at work, because it takes more effort), but we still accomodate them. Just like your story, my story is n=1. From my point of view the workculture at your office is not okay, but that doesn't mean that it is the case everywhere. You have a few options: leave it as it is, learn Dutch or find a better job.

Oh in general, outside my mild annoyance of people not learning Dutch, I have zero issues with knowledge immigrants. Why would I? You work and make you contribution to society. As long as people behave and contribute in the ways they can, I don't care if you are Dutch or not. I have a good relationship with most of my colleagues, based on their personality, not their nationality. I do think learning the local language is important, no matter where you move to. Discrimination is everywhere and right wing parties growing is a global thing. (Disclosure: I am not happy with PVV being so popular).

My family is both Dutch and American, though growing up in the states, my sister and I didn’t really have language skills.

My sister moved to Amsterdam a couple of years ago and now speaks fluent Dutch. As soon as she made an effort, the locals took notice and were much more open.

If you’re going to live in a country, you really should try to respect the local norms and customs and make an effort to meet locals where they are. Just taking brief language classes now and trying to speak Dutch will win you lots of points.

If it’s important for you to integrate but only speak English, tbh the US and Canada are better options.

I think the point about if you have to learn the language, why would you consider the Netherlands when you habe Germany is valid. Germany has a better and bigger economy with lower costs of living. They have eased the immigration requirements and drug laws recently. German courses are cheaper as well.

Now about the comparison to Canada or Australia, that did not change at all. Both German and Dutch society will never be as welcoming as Anglo countries. Most of them are famously immigrant countries, but even the UK is very diverse and generally people are not upset as much about "immigrants" contrary to the media presentation. At least not in the big cities. And most importantly you don't have to be blond to not stick out in these countries. It's much more common to encounter non-white people and that hasn't been a problem so far.

You mention inclusivity, unfortunately if that's what you're looking for Europe was not the destination at all. The Dutch removed Zwarte Piet only recently and I don't want to go into details of Germany but it's not that much better either. If you value inclusivity I'd suggest Canada or the US, maybe New Zealand as well

Personally this is disheartening situation, and I’m here on HSM and also married to a Dutch man. Most of his local friends (in Amsterdam) are devastated by the election and now by this cabinet. I am no longer eager to integrate as well, we even have someone in office during private conversation told my manager than he thinks the office is hiring too many internationals (my manager is German but speaks Dutch). The general ideas are lots of his manifesto go against Dutch and EU laws, and likely will not be realized. But life will become more difficult. I am quite sad but it is the trend now, it is not the Netherlands is worse or Canada is better. It’s global, as an outsider, no where will ever truly accept you. It’s a choice we made. I do not plan to leave, as my home country is no better but my life is better here. I am ok being an outsider.

There's a saying...'This too shall pass'.

It's not great, but I don't believe this is a fundamental shift in the sentiments of the population, nor is it a policy that will persist long term.

The gov may do some harm while they are here, but unlike the threat Trump and the GOP pose in the US, for example, it is not remotely existential, and it certainly doesn't change my plans here.

You feel unwelcome because people don't constantly go out of their way to speak in another language specifically for you, yet you hardly try to learn the language even now that you're no longer a student? You're not even trying to learn our language (you said yourself that you haven't opened Duolingo in weeks) yet you expect us to constantly speak in a different language for your sake. I doubt it's really about them not wanting you here, but rather about your lack of effort to even learn our language. Don't move here if you can't even be bothered to learn the local language? I can understand not being able to keep up whilst also doing your studies, but those are done. Yet you're not currently doing anything, according to what you've said. I think you're the one making yourself less welcomed. Put in the effort and I bet you'll start feeling a lot more welcome very soon.

To answer the question heading your post: I hate that we have such a right-wing cabinet. I do hope that this will make people see what they've actually voted for and come back towards the left a bit more. But well, we can only wait to see what the future will bring. So far a lot of their plans aren't realistic at all.

I’m not the biggest fan of NL, however the friendliness and pleasantness of Dutch people is one of the country’s key strengths to me. I have experienced aggression and violence here - more so than anywhere else in the world - but it has exclusively come from one specific demographic. The associated lack of safety is the reason why I welcome the new government and will exercise my EU voting right to support them, though I’m also contemplating a move.

When there are actions, there are consequences. The Netherlands is no longer the hottest shit in San Expat and it's time to act accordingly. It's a provincial nation of farmers that's been showered with money due to its predatory history, and to provincial nation it will inevitably return if it continues to go in the same direction it's currently merrily marching in.

I'd highly encourage everyone who can afford to do so lifestyle-wise and professional life-wise, to leave the country asap. If there's nothing keeping you here, abandon ship.

When my country of origin has proven to fail me consistently, I have removed myself from it, my skills, talents, good health, taxes and, last but not least, my reproductive capabilities. It was the best decision ever. Don't waste your time if you're being given shit in return. You're worthy; if not even as a human being—than at least as a valuable resource, haha.

Act accordingly.

It's sad you feel this way, but keep in mind that the government here usually doesn't get anything done. So they are coming up with some wild plans, but probably they will only be able to execute like 5% of it all if the government doesn't collapse again in a few months. In this case I would say it's not a bug of our system, but it's a feature ;) 

I think many people didn't vote right-wing because they hate foreigners, but because they are very stressed about housing and their financial situation. These parties promise some easy fixes, and stressed people just fall for that more easily.

You are basically saying we should embrace further annihilation of what makes this country what it is (was), in favour of having (tech) jobs filled and companies remaining here. While economic growth is important (as is tech-development), there is simply more to life than that.

I don't get a hard-on from hearing 10 different languages every train ride I make, seeing entire provinces growing into a single metropolis, an overheated housing market (defying any type of growth imo), PhD positions being filled by those who are cheap rather than loyal and being confronted by a million sets of different cultural values negating cohesion and social trust.

I - in other words - want to be at home beyond my front door.

What I think you mainly don't appreciate enough is that high skilled labor migrants come along with many other types of migrants, and Dutch people, in general, are becoming frustrated and weary of the total impact, rather than that they have (or ever had) no patience or tolerance on the individual level.

I wouldn't mind another 500.000 high skilled migrants, if it wasn't for the last few decades of relentless migration of all types.

I’m an expat here.

If you live here (or in any other country): - study local language - respect the culture. If the culture in some point asks you to change: you should be ready to change. - we are here for a better live, that we don’t have in the places we come from: we can bring something positive from our culture, but we should not teach them how to live - if they were able to build a better society (safe, infrastructure, housing, their attitude to the land)

So: + B2 - good! we should have for the naturalization + cultural check: of course! (it is easy to admit Holocaust if you are not enemy for the Western civilization), get rid of your middle ages prejudices + asylum: less/no money (if you’re not bringing a value to the country and only consume - you should find another place) + student: study in Dutch or at home. You’re young and fresh - study the language in advance and in the environment. - 10 years for naturalization: too much (at most 8, but 5-7 would be good) + 30% ruling: make it only for the first 1-2 years to adopt. If people would like to life here they should be able to manage their costs as locals do.

I’m here because of the Dutch society, and it’s my challenge to try to change. I’m here not for the foreigners culture.

Change. At least try. If it’s impossible for your personality- it’s not your place. Don’t spoil this culture.

Change

So I have been in the Netherlands for close to 5 years now. And my road to the now has been...mainly awful. I can not put everything up in a message cause last time I explained my situation it took me 2 and half hours (yeah, it goes that deep). In summary I can tell you this:

• Year 0: Came here with full founded scholarship
• Year 1: Graduated and started to look for a job. Was homeless for 3 weeks, got a somehow permanent home with registration. Afterwards, it took me 8 months to get a job as high skilled migrant, this was in the midst of COVID. I got hired by a start-up tech company as a researcher/project manager.
• Year 2: Company lays-off all of their good workforce, including me. After that company dies after a year (would be lying if I would not say that this brought a bit of satisfaction to me). As I did not have a job, I had to opt for some migration law loopholes in order to have time to get another job.
• Year 3: Got a new job after frantically searching for 5 months. Got another highly skilled migrant permit. HOWEVER, and this is very important, since now I have a "gap" on my stay, all the time that count for permanent residence permit and naturalisation goes back to fucking 0. Took the plunge and was ok with it.
• Year 4: Second company was also a another start-up, sadly even worse than the last one. After a year of doing my job exceptionally as a project manager (my ex-bosses words not mine), they promised me that they would extend my contract. Three months before my contract and visa expired, my idiot ex-boss tells me that they will not rehire me cause they are downsizing.
• Year 5: Opted for the loophole again but because of complications and misinformation from my lawyer (can not explain that here is too hard to explain) my only possible way was a PhD which I am doing now. BUT remember since I have a gap again my time goes back to 0.
• Now: I am doing this PhD, which I do not like but gives me time to look for something else. After the latest decisions of the government I am sort of reconsidering everything. Cause the environment and feeling just feels unwelcoming, maybe is a minority but that minority makes the decision so what does it really matters what the "good" dutch think.

TLDR: In summary, I will give you some pieces of advices. It will not be easy, you will feel very denigrated and you will have to work twice as hard than the locals and still being seen as not good enough.

If you still decide to stay, do no go for start-ups, they lack resources and are very unstable, not a good environment for migrants. Also, most of them think they are changing the world, but they can not even agree on what to get for lunch.

Job hunting will be torture. I have a bachelors degree and I am a double masters from two different universities both of them were fully funded by scholarships, even with all that these people just do not care, dutch will go dutch cause their mentality tells them they work better (most dutch worker I have meet are incompetent btw). You have to aim for companies that have a majority of internationals, were the dutch culture is diluted. Otherwise you are going to be an outsider and whenever they need to blame shift or to get rid of someone, guess who they are gonna pick?

I can talk to you about it more if you want, we can have a phone call or something, Just PM and let's see.

Hope this helps!

I'm a skilled worker and I don't think about moving anytime soon.

As a year 1 student, I’m studying Dutch about 1-2 hours a day and trying my best to learn the language and culture overall. Integration is necessary if you want to stay here, and I mean integration by ALL means necessary.

Why would one want to integrate? Because they (like I do) think that Netherlands has more to offer than their country of origin, and they want to stay here, benefiting the Netherlands through their skills while getting a high quality life back.

This requires you to be as much ‘Dutch’ as you can, and I think for this the simplest you can do is learn the language like you were born here. Otherwise you will never be able to feel fully Dutch and feel like an outsider.

You mention that some of the more "internationally minded" Dutch people are nice to talk with. A big portion of those would be expats themselves, which surprise, they don't live in the Netherlands. :P

The average local's English is actually quite bad imo. It's good enough for functional stuff when either of you needs something, but it's really not good enough to have a casual conversation. Even in jobs where they speak some English, their vocabulary is often very focused on what they need in their professional life and struggle with everything else.

Most people are just not interested in making friends with people if they need to converse in a foreign language that they're not proficient at. You can't blame anyone for not wanting to be friends with you.

Hearing however that you're experiencing discrimination on a regular basis is very saddening, and I do also fear that the political views and sentiments in the country aren't going to be improving anytime soon. It's understandable that you're considering moving, though I find it hard to estimate how much this government is really going to impact your daily life.

Also be careful with your rose-tinted view of countries based on your interaction with other international migrants. They are in the same boat as you so will have a lot more in common with you than the locals. Just like the Dutch...

my experience with Netherlands has been very similar. I was there close to an year. I was on a company transfer, was paid much higher than average salary and clearly paid my share of taxes. But experience interacting with Dutch people was less than pleasant. There is a huge underlying dislike of people who are not Dutch. Few make any efforts to be civil, and if you look anything like me (Indian) you would be at the lowest rank of social hierarchy. They look at us like we are criminals, although we Indians have much lower probability of commiting crime, much less than their own Dutch population. Racism is outward and general attitdue is they are doing some kind of a favor to us.

You know what, if you want to sell your shitty products in my country, want to expand your businesses then you need to be open to the possibilities of some of us coming there on work. I got out there the first opportunity i got.

As a Dutchmen who’s lived abroad, I think there’s quite a bit of misunderstandings at play, both regarding Dutch people as well as living abroad in general.

First, Dutch may be very close to English, allowing a relatively high skill of the language, but this does not mean that all people are especially comfortable speaking English. Its surprisingly common to run into people that do not know how to have a conversation in English, or feel insecure about their level of skill in the language.

Secondly I’d like to point out that in my experience moving abroad is not easy at all. I don’t know if this is your first experience living abroad, but I have personally found it to be an extremely exhaustive. It requires a lot of initiative to build a life. i understand that it was challenging for you to balance studies and integration (with regards especially to language learning), but its obviously not really an excuse for your current struggles. You can’t expect a whole culture to adopt to your wishes cause you didn’t or couldn’t take out the time to learn the language. I personally would not move to a country of which I don’t speak the language.

I think a lot of frustration on the part of right wing parties is not the fact that there are internationals, but rather that they ignore or reject local customs (once again including the language), choose to life in a sort of parallel society and strongly maintain their own national identities.

Why would highly skilled migrants care? Fly over, make shit tons of money, fly home and take advantage of the exchange rates to live better off than ever in your country of origin.

The right wing parties are not against highly skilled expats coming here to work and contribute to society. They are against people coming here and not contributing to society. Live off welfare, commit crime, harassing (mostly women) in the streets.

well, when did you hear about the nice people.....?

Hey, I’m also non-Dutch and was on kennismigrant (now PR). I’m experiencing the same as you do. I work for an old school financial firm and my department consists of > 80% Dutch. While I’m working hard to better my Dutch language, I still feel challenging to connect with my Dutch colleagues and they show a lack of interest in speaking with me other than for work related purposes. At events/parties the Dutch will mingle among themselves so I’d always end up being with my international colleagues. I’m still deciding whether to move out or stay, but I will give another few years to see if things will really go the opposite way.

You aren’t a kennis migrant ? You acquired your skill here ;)

I am not really bothered honestly. We are already here. What else can change? If things really get worst and affect me, I would just leave?

Even in 100% Dutch companies the techs are often treated as a different breed and kept separate from the others.

I think there is a deliberate mixing of terms by those opposed to strict migration policies.

Right wing says: "We don't want this many asylum seekers." Left wing turns it into: "we don't want this much immigration". And then they continue: "which is very dumb, because we need high skilled immigrants." While in fact it's pretty dumb to mix rules for asylum seeking immigrants and expats.

Anyway, I see the same thing happening with the farmers: There's actually two types of farming; livestock farming and produce farming. They are completely different, but when it's convenient for the argumentation they get combined into "farming" ("no farmers no food" when talking about a reduction in livestock farming).

It's very sad, because everything gets dumbed down to kindergarten level and the discussions are completely derailed because of wrong terminology. And as an expat or produce farmer, you get caught in the crossfire.

I'm a Dutch living in Denmark for 5 years and I still do not speak Danish. But the Danes do not make a problem out of it. They are friendly, talk English as soon as they notice I'm not from Denmark and I'm struggling with the Danish language. I've not yet heard a comment that I need to speak Danish if I want to stay here. On the contrary, nobody judges me and is accommodating me. I'm not ignored, nor bullied. It was an eye opener when I moved here. I find the Danes more tolerant compared to the Dutch. In Holland (yeah I'm still talking about Holland instead of the Netherlands lol) the Dutch are quite black and white to foreigners. You indeed have to learn the language to fit in unfortunately. Maybe you should look into Denmark? Although, if you're not originally from Europe you need to take a language examination to be allowed to stay here. But you do get free Danish classes for a period of 4 years. And if you have employment here it's a bit easier I think.

Have you learned to speak the local language?

Tbh, you have weird colleagues. At my tech company we do speak English. Maybe try switching jobs (easy to say, I know) and find a more suitable environment.

Good luck and laat je niet gek maken!

Entirely anecdotal here. But I moved to NL about 9 years ago, not speaking any Dutch when I arrived. It’s entirely possibly to live in NL only speaking English, and it’s also possible to enjoy living in NL only speaking English. I worked on my Dutch and now speak it at quite an okay level. I now work at a company where I am one of maybe 2 non-Dutch persons, so the entire work environment is Dutch. And I love it. My colleagues are awesome, we do social things together after work, and I am accepted as part of them. If I had not learned Dutch, this would not have been the case. So I guess what I’m saying, is that if you eventually learn the language, your experience will be a lot better. This is definitely not meant to knock anyone not yet speaking Dutch (it took me a long time to get my fluency up). But it’s more of a motivation that if you make the effort, and stick it out through the tougher times, things get a lot better.

I think it highly depends on your expectations. I have made Dutch friends through work mainly. I also practice sports and made friends there (those are not team sports).

What is your definition of friends? You won't be going to their place for dinner but you might share a drink after work. This is still friendship, it's just different.

Right wing? This is the polder! It will be slightly different from the previous government. Don't believe everything you read, it's all someone's opinion

You are labelling people very easily. The Dutch are cold and not welcoming and Canadians are nice. This will pull you all the way along. I have been living in Portugal for 4 years with my family with 2 kids. The way Portugal treated me before and now is different by 180°. The important part is I speak better Portuguese, I am executing the Portuguese ways (at least trying ) in my personal and family life in daily basis. I can feel that I am becoming Portuguese slowly, so I am getting included into their circle.

Trust me, the Dutch do not need to include you. Rather, you must put your efforts. Language, ways of eating, ways of speaking, ways of wearing. Everything counts.

I am a KM in tech. Never thought about leaving. This country welcomed me, gave me the possibilities and i have to pay it back. Regarding the right wing cabinet i do not know what will happen but if you respect the rules, tradition and values of the country and you try to fit in, nothing bad will happen.

This is related to all new right wing governments in EU:

https://www.reddit.com/r/YUROP/comments/1cuqqfz/eu_far_right_party_starter_pack/ 

The problem is that you want it all. You want rulings, a nice house, better opportunities than in your home country, money, friends, savings, holidays. You want it all. But you can’t have it all. 

Whats a hardcore tech anyways? Lol

I did almost the same as you (masters, tech job, etc.) but also learned to speak Dutch.

I have plenty of Dutch friends although I feel like the Dutch are a little harder to befriend than "average".

As other commenters have said, universities and employers give you the impression that you can live and work here normally just speaking English. This is not the case at all. Both work life and private life will be severely affected.

I suspect you would have similar issues in other European countries, but people complain less because their expectations are very different.

The language barrier combined with the Dutch people's individualistic nature can make them seem like assholes quite frankly, but I don't think that is a fair assessment.

Not the same situation, but I'm also a non-EU expat that came here for work. The biggest difference to your sulituation I think is that I'm in a majority dutch speaking business in the south ouside of major cities.

One thing I've seen in the comments is you can surivive with english, but you can't live. That I wholely agree on. Learning dutch means your integrating and want to be here.

I would prefer the new government whatever my opinions on their leanings, put more of a focus on integreation and that part of immigration and not blaming immigration for things. But I don't expect that to happen.

My situation & opinion? Situation: Outside of a city, working for a majority dutch company with dutch, german & other colleagues.

Opinion: Immigrants are scapegoats.

There are good and bad immigrants and those in between. It's not black & white.

Those that refuse to integrate and learn dutch (bad) and those those that do everything they can to integrate and learn dutch (good).

I would place myself in good. B1 dutch, integrating as best as I can. Communicating in dutch is more normal than english (my native language). 1.5 years in I'm doing pretty well.

I would like to see some reason and reflection on that in real policies & decisions from the new government.

Beef up the ingeburging examen sure, make it reflect dutch culture as much as reasonable.

Require international students to take A1 dutch so they can at least understand basic things like street signs and warnings of danger.

But also leave the time structures on visa and naturalisation alone... it's a needless change to incite support.

I want to be here, I want to learn dutch, I want to integrate and I want to naturalise.

The government may be right wing, but we seem to be stuck with them so I want them to actually try and do the best for everyone. At least until I'm allowed to help vote someone else into power.

I'm not a migrant myself, but to be brutally honest with you, I'm very sorry to say that you're not wanted here anymore. Personally, I don't mind, and I'm sure a lot of people on this sub wouldn't mind you either, but the new coalition has already agreed to to reduce all forms of immigration. They are actively working against measures that previously made it more appealing for high-skilled migrants to come here. That much is already in the coalition agreement that they're working on. It's black on white, not open to interpretation, you're no longer wanted. The average Dutch voter would rather tank the entire economy than allow any more migrants, even high-skilled ones. That was what was voted for.

As for being left out though... It is well-known that you can't fully participate in Dutch culture until you learn Dutch. We do speak English, but it doesn't come naturally to us. It's just a lot easier to get into a group that has Dutch people in it if you speak Dutch yourself. I understand that you didn't have the time during your studies, I didn't have time to learn a foreign language during mine, so I'm not here to blame you. But it's just a thing. If you really want to stay here, you really do need to learn Dutch. But given the direction our government is taking, well honestly, why would you want to? You might as well move somewhere less insane and learn their language instead.

Personally, I'm also afraid for myself. I'm native Dutch but I don't feel so welcomed here anymore either. Now what I'm going to say is interpretation more than anything. It's not set in stone like what I wrote above. It's more hypothesis. I have a distance from the job market. My autism is severe enough that I need government assistance. I fully expect the new coalition to do everything in their power to cut back on the government grants that are meant to help me find and keep employment. They don't like welfare recipients, and this is very much a type of welfare. There is no way they'll make life easier for me. Ironically, that will only push me more into welfare, but it's only to be expected with these right-wing clowns.

Aside from the last paragraph, I'm also concerned about skilled migrants leaving. On the one hand, maybe it will make engineers like myself more in demand and help me find work. But on the other hand, it's not a zero sum game. The more engineers you have, the more engineering companies can form, the more chances I have. A company without employees goes bankrupt, after all. I expect the latter effect to be much stronger. I've already noticed how a lack of employees has moved the industry to actually prefer experienced seniors, which I am not. The last thing I need is for the industry to focus even more on experienced workers.

Honestly, I'm a little jealous of you. You can move abroad and find employment much easier. With my disabilities, I'm trying to mentally ready myself for longterm unemployment.

After reading that healthcare is going to be cut, I feel the anti immigrants hate is now the least of my concern since we're basically in a sinking ship together

When we move to an another country we know deep inside that its going to be hard and we may need to work very hard. Deep down we know that hard work will result in eventual sucess in life as it has been always. But as most of the world is turning right in the political spectrum what we are seeing is the butchering of the word HOPE. They butcher the very hope you live by and this may be in the form of anti immigration policies and anti LGBTQ policies, largely seen around today. In these scenarios i think collaborating with the pro-immigrant leaning locals. They are few but they do exsist. I have learnt it through my experience abroad. Collaborating with them usually gives you a sense of security that there are people who wholeheartedly welcome you and sometimes work for you, so that you have a easier life in a foreign land.