"Middle Class Finance" subreddit incomes

Graph by me, data from a Middle Class Finance post. It was a rainy afternoon.

Reddit "source": https://www.reddit.com/r/MiddleClassFinance/comments/1dn2qmy/what_car_do_you_drive_and_whats_your_income/

Median Individual Salary Source: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/wkyeng.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjuyYTE44GHAxU4hIkEHYScC2MQFnoECA8QBg&usg=AOvVaw1JwUL3jU3Cb9xJYkSjBAUx

Median Household income 2022: https://www.census.gov/library/visualizations/2022/comm/median-household-income.html

Median Income estimate 2024 (based on median wage growth): https://www.bls.gov/news.release/eci.nr0.htm

in MiddleClassFinanceby TA-MajestyPalm

813

96%

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TA-MajestyPalm

330

Yeah I'm a loser for making this I know

People naturally did not give their EXACT income, which is why there are more data points at $10k and $100k intervals

I would personally describe myself and my entire social network as middle class, yet my real life experiences are often very different from those on this subreddit

Historical_Page_7693

174

No, honestly it is really interesting! And it helps to understand a lot of the disconnect!

reddituser77373

127

Rich people pretending to be poor because they only take 2 vacations a year and only rent their summer house instead of owning it

FindtheTruth5

How many vacations a year seperate middle and not middle?

HealMySoulPlz

1 vs 0 in my experience.

DynamicHunter

Not middle absolutely goes into debt for vacations. It’s not 1 vs 0

ParryLimeade

Plenty of us spend money on vacations that others spend on kids.

koosley

Going to Spain, Japan and Vietnam this year for 2 weeks each. In total we spent $4500 on flights and $3000 on hotels (SO has family in Vietnam so saving there). So in total it might be 10-12k, which is several thousand less than daycare. Daycare alone is $1300 a month on average.

The lifestyle between DINK and children on the same salary is pretty insane. One is barely making ends meet while the other is traveling around the world every other month.

Trgnv3

You have six weeks of vacation in the US? That's the crazy part if so

koosley

I get 25 days per year plus 10 holidays and I can carry over 15 days. It's probably above average here for the US. My SO also does 3x12 or 4x10 at work and can work with their scheduler to get 7-10 days off in a row pretty easily while I can work from anywhere in the world if needed--we did a 2 month workcation last year taking every Thursday and Friday off.

Trgnv3

"above average" is an understatement. That is a sweet setup!

Drboobiesmd

I wouldn’t say that’s anywhere near typical.

Alfonze423

My personal generalization is:

Lower class: no more than a long weekend as a yearly vacation.

Middle class: a week-long domestic vacation every year or a one-to-two-week trip abroad every few.

Upper class: multiple domestic vacations per year or annual foreign vacations requiring air travel.

strongerstark

Why is your generalization based only on vacations?? Half the HCOL people seem to live in California. As someone who moved here from places with worse weather, vacations are not necessary here. It's beautiful all year long.

reddituser77373

So growing up, my dad worked and my mom stayed at home with us 3 boys until we got into school.

Our yearly vacation was a day trip down to galveston.

zen_and_artof_chaos

Sounds like a yearly punishment to keep your expectations low.

FindtheTruth5

That didn't answer the question but thanks for sharing

MrBenDerisgreat_

Nah they genuinely think they’re middle class. This guys arguing that $350,000 is middle class just because they live in SF. Delusional.

B4K5c7N

Reddit even thinks $1 mil a year is middle class. I wish I were joking, but I had gotten into many arguments about this.

NemoOfConsequence

Don’t have a summer house or take two vacations. I have family with expensive medical needs. I’ll always be broke. I’m not rich at six figures, and you’re bitter.

BudFox_LA

“Rich people” making $140k lol now that’s rich

Future_Green_7222

Now another idea for a survey: how big is your house vs how many people live in it

crawfiddley

oh that would be INTERESTING. I love seeing the difference in opinions of what is "needed". When we moved before our second child was born my MIL so casually said "well you'll need at least 3000 square feet" ....baffling to me!

Ready_Heron2409

1550 sqft 5 people (3/2)

Future_Green_7222

I lived very happily and very spaciously when my family of 5 lived in 1,000 ft² , but we were close to a community park and public transport

JacenHorn

We did this for 7yrs.

Ready_Heron2409

That is the key! All my kids play a ton outside (southern state) with neighborhood friends. Our house has a good layout that works too.

iammollyweasley

That's my dream size. Currently have 5 in a 1300 sqft 3/1 and it works, but a second bathroom would make it easier.

AbbreviationsFar9339

Oh man i would love to see this

the_answer_is_RUSH

1500 sq ft for 4 people. Let’s go

Future_Green_7222

That's 375 ft² per person. That's still relatively big. I've lived comfortably with 450 ft² for 2 people ~= 225 fr² per person. But in Western US it's sometimes hard to find small apartments

SundyMundy14

I think, just like income, it will be dependent on location, if nothing else on a rural vs urban setting. I can buy a McMansion in rural Illinois for a third of what I paid for my 1,700 sq foot house and dirt yard in Phoenix.

truongs

No i had suspicions people on the finance subs were privileged pricks that made 150k plus and thought that it was a normal salary and judged everyone else making less.

So to see this in a "middle class" sub proves my gut feeling I think.

wheresripp

Fun fact: Statistically most of these ‘privileged pricks’ are carrying massive debt and still living paycheck to paycheck. That’s why they identify as middle-class.

ConfidentExplorer708

So they're stupid privileged pricks.

FineFinnishFinish_

Or they had to invest in education to get to their current salary and will eventually pay it off.

meltbox

To be fair 150k in New York isn’t 150k in Cincinnati.

BudFox_LA

Saying someone makes 150,000 a year and is ‘privileged’ just shows how absolutely out of touch some people are on Reddit. If you don’t live in Cornfield Iowa, $150k aint rich.

B4K5c7N

150k is not rich, but it is upper middle class. I say that as someone who has always been in VHCOL. Most people are not making that in VHCOL. Reddit just thinks most educated people are making at least $250k by 30, but not true at all.

Extra-Muffin9214

Yeah only 2% of 30 year olds make $250k or more and only 5% make more than $150k.. Its a very high income even in the few mega cities where it doesnt go as far. What a lot of people point to is that they still cant but a million dollar house in LA but as population density increases land values explode and single family home values explode with it.

In these areas renting is always cheaper than owning because you can fit way more apartments on the same plot of land than single family houses so while people may not be able to buy, renting is way cheaper. People then feel they are not middle class because they cant afford to buy a home like they grew up in or thought they should be able to but they still have massive levels of disposable income that can be invested. A disciplined high earning city dweller who cant afford a home in a vhcol area can have more in stock equity than someone who owns a home has in home equity in most areas of the country within a few years. They may feel robbed of not owning a home but will be objectively wealthier.

Moderator removed comment

sanguinemathghamhain

Those are household incomes yes a person making >2x the median individual income would by definition not be middleclass but rather upper-class but a household making 150k isn't wealthy if the median household income is 75k or more they are just upper-middle class. The cool thing about the stats though is if they were done right it means the vast majority of the middleclass are upper-middle class. I'll need to look into the OP's sources and check their work to know if there is any there there but if there is fuck yeah most of the middleclass is upper-middleclass.

Extra-Muffin9214

Speaking for a friend, there isnt really a sub for those people though. The next sub up from this is Henry finance and everyone there has a $500k plus income and its not relevant to someone on $150-$250k income.

sanguinemathghamhain

Oh I am not saying there is just that by definition middleclass is from 66%-200% median income.

Extra-Muffin9214

Thats fair. My hh is not middle class but we have more in common with middle class subreddit. Less and less each year but more for now. My boss is one promotion up from me and spends $60k on rent each year + $20k on food which would be closer to henry finance. Im only hitting 50% of that but that spending alone is more than than the median individual earns so its a privilege for sure.

Hardanimalcracker

If you’re working and making 150k you aren’t rich. Sure it’s better than making 50k but you’re still a poor working class schlub with a slightly nicer car / apartment of house and you can put some money into retirement. At 150k you still go home worried about bills and all the Amazon boxes and have all the “working man” woes.

It’s not elitist to say whats true

thesouthdotcom

I think what you’re saying really illustrates the disconnect on what different people think the middle class is. Yes, we all still have to work for a paycheck, but that’s where the similarities end.

A $150k household can afford a house in most areas of a given city. A $75k household can probably only afford the outer suburbs.

A $150k household can probably afford to send their kids to an out of state school, a $75k can only afford in state.

A $150k household can probably afford to fly to a nice destination for vacation. A $75k household cannot.

On paper, both of these households are middle class, yet there is a distinct and measurable difference in quality of life.

JacenHorn

I agree.

B4K5c7N

A poor working class schlub at 150k a year? JFC out of touch. It’s a decent salary anywhere in the country, even in VHCOL. It׳s only pennies for Reddit, because Reddit thinks you need at least $500k to make it.

Trgnv3

People like you are something else. Calling a professional making 150k "a poor schlub" when it's more than what 92% of the country makes is impossible to do in good faith unless you were born with your head up your ass.

nfshaw51

Yeah I make equivalent of above 150k ( tax related things/per diem make my income funny), I do not worry about bills. My latest stress has been managing money for a 2 month vacation. Not a brag, just to say that it’s a little “woe is me” to say there’s much similarity between 50k and 150k, there is not.

BudFox_LA

Spot on sir, spot on

wilshire-blvd

I'm in suburban Los Angeles (not the trendy part)

150k is nowhere near enough to purchase a modest starter home which goes for $1M-$1.1M

BudFox_LA

Thank god, someone who gets it. Same here, suburban LA/foothills area (think 2fwy north/210 west). I make over $150k, fiancé makes $75k). I can max out 401k and Roth, contribute to the kids’ 529 accounts, have around 10 mos living exp liquid, net worth hovers around $525k. Kids go to public school, not private, I drive a paid off 2016 3 series, not a new car, we take vacations, rent a nice house in a good neighborhood.

That said, it is Literally impossible to buy a ‘starter home that needs TLC’ for under a mil and double to triple our housing nut. Not gonna happen.

Not rich. Middle class. Maybe people making $40-50k a year should just admit they’re borderline poverty and improve their earning potential and stop whining on reddit that reddit’s idea of middle class seems so out of reach.

SignificantJacket912

Live in Phoenix and have much the same situation.

People that make $40k/year think that people making $150k/year are living it up on easy street and that just isn’t the case. It’s a matter of perspective and it’s relative.

B4K5c7N

If you are in your 20s or 30s, a half a million net worth isn’t much to sneeze about though. You will likely be worth at least 10x that by the time you retire. We have millions in this country who have nothing even saved for retirement.

BudFox_LA

Ha ha, 20s or 30s? If you have a half a million net worth in your 20s you are on fire. Like, absolutely killing it. I had dick in my 20s. I just crossed over half a mil and I’m 47 lol. Granted I went through a divorce, which was very expensive, and Covid completely crippled my industry for about 16 months; so all things considered, I think I’m doing all right. My net worth is still higher than 75% of people in my age group, but I’m still worried it will not be enough, not even close.

truongs

He literally proved my point reddit fiance subs are full of out touch people. They are literally in the top 20-10% of the income bracket and think they are "average". No son... the medium income in the US is around 44k(using the last trusted source I saw. It may be 59k now in 2024 as OP chart shows). Cut your salary by half and you will be closer to "average".

B4K5c7N

This, 100%. Reddit thinks they are average because they live in VHCOL, but even in VHCOL, they are still high incomes. I am tired of seeing people on Reddit argue that you need at least $500k to make it.

Acceptable_Loan_4622

Lol you should go outside

iwantthisnowdammit

It’s a time and location equation - my random ass guess is less than 15% of people need to concern themselves that they don’t have 150+.

Here I am with my $691 mortgage in a MCOL scenario all because I was in before it was cool 😎

Trgnv3

Making $150k maybe isn't "rich" but it is privileged AF. Shows how absolutely out of touch upper middle class Redditors really are.

truongs

That's absolutely insanity. I never said rich. When the medium income is 44k (going by last sources I saw) how is 150k not insane?

Medium income in my area, where average rent is 1800 a month, is still ~~55k~~ 40k(Actually for this city its 40k as of 2022).

So how is making 3x the salary the average person makes not privilege? How is thinking that you making 150k means everyone else making less just needs to pull up their bootstraps?

How about the fact 150k puts you in the top 10% of wages? meaning there are not nearly enough jobs for everyone to make your so called normal wage of 150k.

You kind of proved my comment. I never said they are rich. I said they are privileged making 3-4x the MEDIUM SALARY and JUDGING people making less. How can you judge people making less when your wage puts you in the top 10% salary wise??

You can make 150k and understand that 80% of america is worse off, so if you feel tight at 150k imagine EVERYONE ELSE making the average salary? wtf?

MaoAsadaStan

Objectively $140k is in the top 10% of incomes, but it doesn't afford a great lifestyle in the past. its like making $60k a year and being able to save and invest. With a family its probably treading water.

truongs

Right, but I never said they were rich at any point at all. Someone just triggered because the shoe fit.

My point is they are making many times over the MEDIUM income, while they pretend they are making "what every hard working and smart person like me makes" which is total bullshit.

You are lucky to be in that top 10% bracket. There PLENTY of smart people and hard working people that will not make it there just because there is not enough jobs that pay that much and those jobs shrink everyday.

topsidersandsunshine

Do you keep meaning to say median income?

User deleted comment

sunbeatsfog

No it’s really cool you took the initiative. Thanks for sharing

FerrisWheeleo

This is super cool! Thanks for taking the time to aggregate and plot this data. There are people over 500k 😔

GoBirdsPhilsFlyers17

Hey, what is your experiences in rl that differ from this?Personally, I know far too man people that live well beyond their means and literally a handful of people that are legit millionaires that live well inside their means(aka my mentors and people I look up too). I grew up very lower middle class, multi-generational household, dad worked 7 days a week, mom worked 5 but had 3 kids, lower income town, etc. I've been trying to break the mold since 14 and elevate my entire family out of LMC. It's been hard man, really hard. Breaking that mindset... damn

Bunny_Butt16

160

Who the fuck said they were middle class at $500k+ income?

rocket_beer

192

“But that’s low for my area 🥴”

Pays $4200 rent, has 4 kids, 2 Teslas, fully funded retirement funds, owns 2 homes outright, inherited $800k at 13, gets $80-120k bonus every year

🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️🤦🏽‍♂️

Anon369damufine

My in-laws yesterday mentioned how they make over $20k/month. That’s over $240k/year. They’re retired veterans in the affordable part of our state-tax-free state, don’t pay property tax, and bought their current house with a 0.99% interest rate in 2021. Their mortgage with insurance and a very expensive HOA (luxury community) is $1700. The commented how it’s sooo unfair for them that Biden wants to tax the middle class. My eye literally twitched. My husband and I make $113k/year, pay property tax, and will pay $2235/month for a starter home literally HALF the size of theirs in a much less attractive area. It took everything within me not to tell them to shut up.

NaorobeFranz

Wow. I bet they're just barely scraping by in this economy, had only their hopes and dreams to fill their grumbling stomachs 🥲.

Icy_Recognition_3030

Meanwhile im looking at this graph, like is this before or after taxes, that’s a big deal lol.

B4K5c7N

Oh, and you forgot the $80-100k a year nanny, night nurse, and $60k per kid per year private school tuition. Plus $10k+ per kid for activities.

BrokenArrows95

That will make you feel poor but the rest of us feel that poor and don’t get all the nice stuff that comes with it

B4K5c7N

Exactly. I was being facetious lol.

BrokenArrows95

I was agreeing. Must be nice to have all those things when you feel middle class haha

DammitMaxwell

I mean, 4 kids is probably going to make most “lower rich income” folks feel like they’re middle class.

I make about $120k a year, and have one kid. She is the light of my life, literally the best thing that has ever happened to me.

She is also 100% a money pit. Haha. I cannot fathom four.

MrBurnz99

I make the same and have 4 kids. Can confirm, we feel closer to poor than to rich most days. We have a nice house, that’s it. Everything else is budget brand for a while. We could afford a vacation for 2 but dragging 4 kids on vacation is exhausting and also doubles the cost. Our vacations consist of 2 day camping trips.

imakepoorchoices2020

I have 2 kids. I don’t feel rich or poor thankfully but vacations are painful at times. It’s just parenting in a different location without their toys or beds.

For any non parents out there - Little kids thrive on routine so vacation screws that up, then you finally kind of get a routine on vacation in a new area then you go back home only to establish a routine again.

MrBurnz99

Agreed. The vacation aspect gets me bummed sometimes when I see my childless friends traveling all over, even my friends with just one kid. I know that we are so far away from actually enjoying a vacation.

But on paper everything else looks good for us. Healthy savings and retirement accounts, decent income, 1 newer car, 1 solid 10 year old car. A great house, kids have everything they need.

It feels tight sometimes, but if people were to drive past our house and see our stuff, most would say we are doing pretty good.

BrokenArrows95

Their area being full of wealthy people as well haha.

Well damn, compared to Bezos we are all paupers!

Creation98

I mean some people just subscribe and browse but know we’re not middle class, per-say.

habitualtroller

Not to be a turd but perhaps helpful as some kind stranger did to me.

It’s per se.

I made the mistake for years. If its some kind of inside joke, I’ll see my self out.

Creation98

Haha no I appreciate the correction. I couldn’t remember the right spelling of it, and Apple auto correct gave me “per-say” so I just ran with it

RebornChampion

valid take

Easy_Money_

there’s also folks who used to be middle class when they subbed

Souporsam12

“B-b-but if I’m not making 1M in SF I’m living in poverty!!!! It’s so HCOL!!!

B4K5c7N

Even $1 mil a year incomes are viewed as struggling on Reddit. I wish I were joking.

Terbatron

I mean making 1m in sf would be a lot nicer than what I make.

VascularMonkey

More people than you'd think.

And when you complain you always get weird pseudo Marxists pulling out "if you work for your money you are middle class, no matter how much you make".

Yeah I'm not calling the literal 1% "middle class". Ever. And the 1% starts at 'only' $430,000 a year.

Tired of privileged twits trying to claim they're barely privileged at all, trying to blame all socioeconomic problems and inequalities on the "nesting doll yacht rich" and all that bullshit.

B4K5c7N

Agree, 100%. I’ve even seen many $1 mil+ earners on Reddit complain that they are middle class and cannot afford to buy a home.

I am so tired of this out of touch rhetoric, and it never really gets called out. If you call it out, you will be downvoted and just labeled as “jealous” or “poor”.

Have to wonder if some of it is bots trying to get people worked up. I get that higher income earners exist, but how is it that every other Redditor is making such high incomes ($400k+ is thrown around on this site constantly on many subs). I have noticed this type of behavior on Reddit over the past two years specifically, and I have been on this site for six years. It was never this terribly out of touch years ago.

Lanky_Possession_244

I only believe half or less of the "high income earners" that frequently post on here. For one, it's the internet and people embellish their lives constantly. And secondly, most high income earners I know are too busy to post that often on reddit. There's a ton of larpers on here.

liveprgrmclimb

I added a data point that prob impacted that. I don’t consider myself middle class anymore technically. Though I do subscribe to the subreddit. The question didn’t provide any limitation to who could respond.

Thick-Wolverine-4786

It's a cultural thing for many people, honestly. At some point you graduate from college and are clearly middle class. Then you get a good job, then a better job, your career takes off toward very high income. You are still working, you don't have a yacht or a mansion, you don't take long vacations. You still need to go shop for groceries or pick up your kid from school every day. You don't fly first class or buy a $100k car. At some point in your career you may not be middle class anymore, but in your mind you still are, because it's just a gradual process, and unless you go for conspicuous consumption, you don't feel "rich" like you see on TV. You just feel well off.

SadMacaroon9897

My brain knows these are horizonal bars, but my eyes see vertical bars

SendMeNoodsNotNudes

The vertical bars represent the total number of people that posted that income. So you see the bars being longer at 100k, 200k, 300k.

It shows that many Redditors are just rounding up.

mexicandiaper

Welp i'll see myself out :( poverty finance it is.

motorboat_mcgee

I've long felt too poor for middle class finance and personal finance, and too wealthy for poverty finance 🙃

wheremypp

Me too, so I tried just going outside instead of spending time on reddit.

Obviously it's not working but maybe one day

Automatic-Arm-532

No, it's just most people here don't know about r/rich, so they like to boast here.

Windlas54

Being rich and being a high earner are very different things. Which is why subs like r/Henryfinance exist.

Also the r/rich sub is a joke, r/FATFire is a much better community or if you're serious (and legitimately rich as they check) Long Angle is an actual online community for rich people.

0000110011

No, you just think not being broke means you're "rich".

Automatic-Arm-532

No, I make $50k in a HCOL area. My partner and make around $100k combined and we're not broke. We're middle class. $140k for a single person is rich.

User deleted comment

Smartypants4

100k household in HCOL is middle class. Single incomes don't really matter.

Beneficial-Tax3597

I may be misunderstanding, but why the comment about single incomes not mattering? Or is that directed at the commenter with a partner? My understanding is the number of single person households has been on a steady rise. I would think single incomes are more important than ever. Though I’d agree if you have a partner your single income doesn’t matter.

Smartypants4

They asked how 50k in HCOL is middle class. My point is that they aren't making 50k, they are making 100k combined so its not a valid question to ask why they consider 50k in HCOL middle class because they in my opinion never made that statement.

What I was trying to say is that in a combined household, single incomes don't matter. Whether its a 50%/50% split, 100%/0% or anywhere in between, if you have a combined income you shouldn't look at a single income to determine which class they may fall in.

Quomise

That's because you have a partner.

Since housing is the biggest cost for HCOL, you're not really 50k, you're effectively pretending to be 100k.

100k vs 140k salary is not the dividing line between middle class and rich. The dividing line is something like 3-5 mil in assets.

And even then it's not "rich" rich, it's just the bottom floor of rich where you can live like middle class without having to work.

You don't get private jet level of rich until like, idk, 30-100 mil.

red_knight11

As someone who’s been browsing this sub for years and years, this checks out.

me047

I think it’s interesting because mathematically the median range is the middle class. However, socially what we think of as middle class, and what you should be able to afford, the median in the USA is closer to working class. The Reddit amount is closer to middle class social expectations like being able to qualify for and afford a median priced home. Being able to afford daycare/private school, or a new car, vacations etc.

The middle class the way we once knew it is now unattainable for the average American. Middle class is now just renting and living paycheck to paycheck hoping you don’t run into a financial emergency.

Due-Set5398

This is a good point. 140k with kids isn’t poor but it ain’t rich. 140k is a good living if you don’t have kids or expensive debt though.

Putrid_Ad_7842

Had to scroll too far for this.

Middle class ≠ median income.

Middle class means being able to afford a mortgage, childcare, healthcare and vacations while also saving for retirement.

Important-Money-5636

It's not the middle class as we once knew it. It's the middle class as advertised in the media. I've seen people complaining on Reddit that they can't have their middle class Home Alone house when that family was in the 1% when the movie was made.

me047

Were they really in the top 1% when they had so many people in the house and kids that they forgot one?

But I get your point. Same with Full House, Friends, etc. We were shown upper class and told it was middle class. Even Al Bundy had a middle class life on a minimum wage job.

akablacktherapper

Supposedly, a lot of these people are living paycheck-to-paycheck, which is nuts.

0000110011

Because a lot of people, regardless of income level, have a major spending problem.

FoST2015

A lot of people also include savings in their paycheck to paycheck calculations.

After contributing 2k a month to a retirement they have nothing left.

hikingjupiter

This is something I've noticed, too. When working class/blue collar folks say they are living paycheck to paycheck- they match the definition I think of. Which is like - when you get to the end of the month, you are out of money and need to wait for the next paycheck to do anything.

Some middle-class folks include emergency savings, college savings, and retirement in paycheck to paycheck. Usually, it's pretty base level, though. They have an emergency fund to maybe swing new tires or replace an appliance or something. Closer to upper income, they might have enough in an emergency fund to cover some lost wages or do a roof repair, maybe afford to cover more of college and have a little nicer retirement.

Some upper income folks I've seen use "we are living paycheck to paycheck" have an emergency fund to cover a year+ of unemployment plus some, a college fund so their kid could go to expensive private schools for undergraduate and graduate school, plus they have enough they are setting aside to retire early. While cashflowing expensive private school, a large home and luxury cars.

DD_equals_doodoo

I have a BiL/SiL that probably make ~$200K. They have a rule that they refuse to keep more than $10K in savings (yes including retirement) and if they hit $10K they will clean out their accounts with a shopping spree. They are always on travel/partying and also always complain about not having money. They are nice people, but man they are completely oblivious with finances.

akablacktherapper

That is indeed what I was referring to.

d0mini0nicco

The lifestyle creep is very real.

Quomise

Paycheck to paycheck data is nonsense, because the survey doesn't include stock investments.

After I invest a billion dollars into stock market my bank account has nothing remaining. Doesn't mean I'm poor.

The real number of paycheck to paycheck with zero stocks/401k is closer to 10-20%.

ept_engr

The articles about people not being able to afford a $1000 expense or whatever are mostly click-bait garbage. The original study they are based on treated "pay using a credit card" as "unable to afford" regardless of whether the person would pay it off in full when the bill was due. Many people use credit cards for day-to-day expenses for practicality and to earn points, then pay them off in full every month.

chibinoi

Lifestyle creep is one heck of a “drug”.

MostlyH2O

I assume this is a cumulative distribution function but it's really hard to read. You should label your y axis. Also making it a bar graph is weird. Typically this will be a scatter plot or a line scatter plot.

Interesting info but presented in a bit of a strange way that makes it hard to interpret.

Formal_Marsupial_817

Am I the only one who thinks the numbers on the x axis should be on the y axis?

Also, income above 550 was excluded for visibility of what? The chart goes to 600.

cheeze_whizard

Yes, it would make much more sense to do this, or you could leave the salary on the x-axis and use vertical bars to indicate the total count for each salary on the y-axis.

Reasonable_Power_970

This is one of the worst graphs I've ever seen

Formal_Marsupial_817

I like your suggestion better.

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ButtonDifferent3528

It the “at most” that always gets me.

Hagridsbuttcrack66

A lot of people point to consumerism as a dividing factor in what they consider middle class and I completely understand. There's lots of people spending to that last dime.

But a big one is also retirement. You hear wealthier people talk like it doesn't exist. And I know for spending conversations/in your brain it doesn't, but it's disingenuous for conversation. And honestly it is a tell for me for people who grew up thinking "maxing out retirement" is its own given. Like of course I max my Roth, like most people would say of course I pay my mortgage.

So off the top there's a lot of people pretending 30K a year doesn't exist. I remember taking 10K out of my retirement accounts when I was going through a rough patch (unemployed) when I was like 31. And everyone saying this was "the worst financial decision I could ever make in my life".

Like how out of touch with the regular person are you? If taking 10K out of a pool of 150K when I'm 31 is the WORST financial decision I ever make in my life, what a privileged life i lead! Like yeah it wasn't good, but six years later, I'm doing great and it won't make any difference in my future at all. Having a pool of "untouchable" money to draw from sure beats having nothing like my parents!

Like I can play this up and tell all of you I only have $3.1K to get by per month. Wow, she's living pretty meager once you take out rent. Okay. But I make a choice to max out a Roth and give 20% to my 401K. Most people in the lower middle class aren't giving you numbers that secretly subtract two grand a month.

trilled7

This is actually so true. People put away $30k a year and act like they’re paycheck to paycheck 😂😂 like if you’re struggling so much then decrease your retirement contributions. It’s not gonna end your life

Ohey-throwaway

LABEL YOUR Y AXIS

NumerousAd6421

$550k is not middle class 🤣🤣🤣

leeezer13

YES I’M MEDIAN!

we-could-be-heros

How do ppl make 140k as a median income in this economy 🤔 am I a loser for making less ?

1776_MDCCLXXVI

Most veteran UPS drivers (big rig division) make $140,000+ and we do it with no college loans - downside is it’s like working a full time job and a part time job - so horrible work life balance. 11-14 hour days.

You’re not a loser for making less. Times are very tough right now. A lot of my friends who are the sole providers are still having to rent and have no hope to buy a home even making $140,000+ right now - the ones who have bought small homes in the ghetto are legit trying to get out and go back to renting.

we-could-be-heros

The housing market alone is another issue idk for how long can this keep on going rents are skyrocketing and mortgages are not cheap either and all properties are out of reach I remember like only 5 years ago it was half of this price if not less idk what happened suddenly that flipped everything upside down

1776_MDCCLXXVI

Housing is insane right now. In New Zealand. In Canada. Here in Bay Area and I’m sure everywhere else. My friend bought his 900 sq ft house and is paying $3500 a month mortgage and $600 for utilities.

He’s now trying to sell to just go rent an apartment for $2,000 because it just makes more financial sense and he can invest the leftover $2,000 in a Roth IRA / Mutual fund

0000110011

How did I do it?

Get a bachelors degree while taking out loans and working shit jobs part time
Get a masters degree while taking out more loans and working a shit job full time
Spend a decade slowly working my way up (promotions and changing companies).

It's not something that you can reasonably expect to get right out of school (though some people are lucky with it), it's something that takes several years and a lot of effort to prove yourself.

Main-Combination3549

Because when I check out /r/HENRYfinance it’s clear to me that I’m not even scratching the median there, which is closer to $400k.

Problems here are a lot more relatable, which makes sense given that I’m way closer to this subs median than that sub.

vdday

Been doing IT for over 10 years, gross 150k and net just over 100k. It's not something most people just wake up and start making. With lot of little steps and constantly improving yourself, eventually you too can make that kind of money. That being said 150k today feels a hell of a lot like 50k 10 years ago.

0000110011

That being said 150k today feels a hell of a lot like 50k 10 years ago.

Hardly. I made $52k a decade ago and make $150k now, my quality of life and ability to save is lightyears beyond what I could do scraping by on $52k at the time (with student loan payments and car payment).

MaoAsadaStan

If someone is in a high paying field (medicine, tech, law, etc.) and continue to improve and move up the ladder then $100k is reachable in 5 years minimum.

1776_MDCCLXXVI

Yes. I do well and I’m grateful for making $130,000 at UPS, but I still had to watch my bank account and be very careful with money until I started investing. Thankfully I can be a lot more relaxed now but it wasn’t as easy as I thought it would be making mid 100,000+. Also area matters alot, the Bay Area is so expensive

vdday

Area has a lot to do with how well off you feel. $150,000 in the Bay Area feels much different than $150,000 in Idaho.

D3ADFAC3

Depends where in Idaho man. I live in Sandpoint and everything here is ridiculously expensive.

vdday

True, I live in Twin Falls where the median income is around $50,000.

iammollyweasley

Yeah, that is not a good living in any of the more mountainous areas anymore. It's definitely not enough for a home in Teton County or Coeur d'Alene, and even in Ada County it doesn't go as far as one would think. In my rural county 5 years ago a 4-5 bed 2000 sq ft house could easily be purchased under 200k, now you're looking at 300k minimum for the same thing. My very basic starter home is worth 50k more than we paid for it 3 years ago.

FuelzPerGallon

Is it driving anyone else absolutely insane there’s no y-axis tick marks?

sunmaiden

In this thread: people who don’t know the difference between median and middle, income and class. In America these things are correlated but not the same. You can be broke and middle or upper class (many college students are in this bucket). You can be a working class person with a great income (your plumbing business is going great, you make 250k but you’re still breaking your back literally dealing with other people’s shit). Class is about your lifestyle and comfort level, not a mathematical formula.

JustJennE11

The middle class is defined as 3/4 of the median income to 2x the median income by pew research. I think this reflects that huge spread. Your median reported income is technically middle class.

Chiggadup

What is this graph even? Am I missing somthing, or is it just completely missing a label of what the Y axis shows?

RabidRomulus

I'm pretty sure it's just 500 "bars" of income stacked from smallest to largest

Maybe they could've added percentiles or something on the Y

Suck_Mah_Wang

I was also rather confused but I think you're correct. A simple histogram with proportions on the Y-axis would present the relevant information in a more interpretable format. This also solves the issue of jumps at the 10k/100k intervals and allows for a "500k+" bin to collect the handful of outliers.

Meant as constructive criticism of course—thanks for putting this together OP! I like the annotated comparisons of the medians, they do a good job of elucidating some of the selection bias (or embellishments) present in this community.

TemporaryOrdinary747

but muh HCOL

everyone making $200k thinking they are middle class

WealthyCPA

$150k is on the upper end of middle class but it is still middle class. Also income completely depends on where you live. A lot of people with high incomes assume they are middle class because they live paycheck to paycheck.

Automatic-Arm-532

So the average "Middle Class Finance" Redditer is actually rich.

Splittinghairs7

A big reason is prob due to a higher proportion of redditors living in high COL or medium COL areas where $140k can be considered middle class.

Pirating_Ninja

Going to push back on this a little. Choosing to live in a HCOL area (or medium) is a lifestyle choice in most cases. Someone making 140k in a HCOL area could likely take a 30% pay cut (at most) to live somewhere that would reduce their CoL by 50% (at least).

I make about 20% less than what I would make in person in a HCOL city, but all of my expenses (including rent, car insurance, utilities, food, etc.) come out to be about half of what my rent alone would be in that HCOL city.

The reason people don't is because the HCOL area has more to offer. They are choosing to pay more. Nothing wrong with that, but as someone well aware that I am middle class and will likely be upper middle later in my career, it is cringy seeing people that make 4x as much as me hem and haw about how they are solid middle class because of how much it costs to live in one of the most desirable places to live in the country with the best weather, food, schools, etc. To be facetious for a second, are we then proposing that a millionaire who buys a private island - which their salary can barely cover - is also "middle class". If not, where is the arbitrary line? I'm pretty sure that most people would roll their eyes at me if I started claiming I was living pay check to pay check after taking out a loan I could barely afford on a Ferrari.

Living somewhere has a cost, just like driving a nicer car or owning a bigger house. Just because that cost prohibits you from other things, does not magically make your lifestyle equal to someone with the same money left over but living in a shittier area. It just means that after spending all this extra money living somewhere nicer, the rest of your paycheck is the same as someone living somewhere else.

MindlessOrdinary5556

I get you; I left San Francisco for Indiana, taking a 20% paycut ($85k->$70k).

But I'll also push back a little. It's not easy to move. Large numbers of people were born and/or raised in HCOL areas. Said folks' friends and families are there.

Moving also depends on the employer. Want to do tech? The Bay Area is still the main hub. Pharmaceutical research? California and Boston are the places to go. There are other options, of course, but there are far fewer positions. And of course, employers don't like paying relocation. These two factors make it far harder to apply for out of state jobs than in-state jobs.

Quomise

If not, where is the arbitrary line?

Your comparison is unfair because the high salary is tied to the location. Most people don't get a HCOL salary if unless you pay the HCOL prices, therefore HCOL housing is a necessary expense.

Your imaginary millionaire can just choose to not buy a private island or ferrari, they're not necessary expenses.

BamsMovingScreens

I object to the idea that people working jobs in HCOL places should see moving to LCOL places as a completely acceptable thing on a large scale

That drives up the local cost of living, and people can’t compete with transplants working a job with a different baseline of pay.

0000110011

$140k is middle class in virtually all of the country. There are just a lot of poor people living in denial insisting they're really middle class (because who wants to be called poor?) and consider middle class incomes as "rich".

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Putrid_Ad_7842

Reddit skews towards coastal cities and tech jobs

thesouthdotcom

I got laughed at and called a boomer on this sub when I suggested that budgeting and saving on the little things (I.e. buying store brand, cooking/making coffee at home, not buying the “nice versions of things,” etc.) can add up to a consequential amount. Seeing the median income of this sub makes a lot of sense given that.

infantsonestrogen

lol at people making over $550k/yr thinking they are middle class. Shows how out of touch they are.

LillianWigglewater

Probably the best fine print I've ever seen in a graph posted on reddit.

WhoDat847

Me thinks $140K isn’t a middle class income for an individual. Now if you have a family and that’s the household income then that’s a potentially different story.

-bad_neighbor-

Where I live, HUD lists a family of 2 making under $78,360.00 gross as a low enough income to qualify for social benefits programs. After taxes here that’s about $56,420.00. To live “comfortably” in my area as a single person you need at least $130,000.00 gross. A one bedroom is around $2,800.00 a month without including utilities… so it would be fair to say “middle class” for a single person in my area is around $150,000.00 a year.

Mountain-Captain-396

I knew this sub wasn't for me as soon as people were talking about yearly Disney vacations or taking 2-3 trips per year :/

yumechan357

This is amazing!! I've always been curious what everyone together in the subreddit looked like on one graph/chart, so thank you for making this!!

beerwolf1066

This thread should be pinned to the top of the subreddit.

Vosslen

You guys really need to do a better job understanding data.

Any survey you run will be highly skewed by who you are surveying. If your audience consists 100% of people who do things like follow finance subs in their spare time, odds are they're going to be more financially responsible and have higher incomes than say people who get drunk and pass out in front of the TV for a hobby.

This is not surprising in the least.

TA-MajestyPalm

That was really the point of my post - to show/remind people that this subreddit isn't representative of the overall population.

Arkhamman367

I also want to argue that most people using this Reddit probably live in coastal or major cities where the middle class income floor would increase to be around 100k dollars.

capitalsfan08

I'm in Seattle where the median household income is about $125k. Can you explain why you think you need $50k more than that to qualify as middle class?

nowei-nohow

tfw you're 17 and took your first stats class now you gotta come to reddit with your smugness

New-Act4377

I make $300k and still get drunk and pass out in front of the TV for a hobby. Touché.

Vosslen

You got me. The model has failed.

PerfectEmployer4995

Who are you talking to specifically? Obviously you didn’t read a comment that justified making a point like this or you just would have left it there.

You are pretending to be making an insightful point when everybody already knows this.

markd315

Middle class just means you have disposable income but have to work for a living because you don't own the means of production. It's kind of a bad term to use period, but that is the only sensible definition.

Someone who is a worker, usually salaried but not always, that can afford vacations luxuries homes etc. Not a specific amount of them, or less than a specific amount of them.

I make $175k and my gf makes $130k in HCOL. This is middle class, so is $70k for a family of 3 in HCOL

Stop worrying about what the median is.

Mrbumboleh

Based on lies people tell for internet points

Big-Preference-2331

I guess it all depends on what age bracket/education level you’re in too. I’m 45 with an MBA and most of my friends are all making over 200k with wife’s that make 200k. So, in my head I’m on the lower end. I make 200k but I am married to a social worker who makes 28k.

However, we do have a lot more cool shit because we bought our house at an optimal time. A lot of our friend are house poor while we are the opposite.

BeautifulSinner72

What. Does American middle class begin at $59k?

Novamoda

Best to consider median household income in your specific county.

TA-MajestyPalm

Yup it really varies a lot locally.

I did make a map for that too 😉

introspective_pisces

Kind of tired of people taking “middle class” as “exact middle quintile” or whatever. Guys, middle class never meant that.

Coolizhious

wait you guys are making income??

debrocker