Advice for zone 2/easy runs?

We have all heard how important slow, zone 2 runs are for training. I truly get this and don't have a problem with the concept. But I am finding it hard to slow down more than 90 seconds from my standard MP. I do most of my runs around 9:20-9:30 pace and am targeting an 8:10 marathon pace (3:35).

My issue is that the slower I go, the harder it feels, especially on hills. And it sometimes physically hurts. I have a neuroma in my foot and have been cleared to run/train, but I notice the symptoms act up if I go much slower than 9:45 pace. It isn't a one-time issue either — I have been experimenting with various shoes, inserts and it's always the same. I slow down to 10 or even 11 minute miles and the nerve starts hurting. Then I speed up to my "normal" pace and the pain is magically gone.

I'm currently part of a summer training group and our coach is saying that we all need to slow down so that no one's HR goes above 139 during the bulk of our runs. We live in a humid/hilly area, which makes a low HR pretty challenging in summer. My HR (based on the watch) is usually in the 140s and I'm able to hold conversations, but am starting to second guess myself on whether I am "overdoing" it based on our coach's feedback.

What is everyone's advice for zone 2 training? How do you make slower running more comfortable? Does anyone else notice it feels worse than "regular" runs?

in Marathon_Trainingby SidneyTheGrey

100%

Silly-Resist8306

It’s old school, but just run at a pace where you can hold a conversation. If you can do this, you will be fine.

Oli99uk

The runners benefitting from Z2 are running significantly faster in Z2 than they do on their Easy runs. Zone 2 is pushing their aerobic system just below threshold, where fatigue dramatically increases.

Managing fatigue is important for these runners because they have already maxed out on volume and intensity and are probably running over 8 hours a week.

New runners in contrast have Z2 slower than an easy, efficient gait because their delivery system is not developed. They train less than 5 hours a week and at a lower strain. They don't need to manage fatigue in the same way some running 70-100mpw does.

The new runner will get all the aerobic benefit AND threshold AND running economy by not worrying about being in Z3 or even drifting into Z4. Yes, there is more fatigue but until they are running 6+ hours a week, they won't really need to consider that.

They cam circle back to being more measured in hard / easy runs once they have been consistently running for 4-6 months and able to tolerate 60 minutes a day without issue. They will be significantly faster and more efficient with it than someone who has been shuffling along trying to keep heart rate down.

~2p

FantasticAd1251

I don't know if I full agree with this take. If you are doing 30-40 mpw you can still benefit from z2 running and most marathon training paces (Daniel's and Pfitz) suggest an easy pace around where Z2 would occur. Pfitz suggests at least 3 days recovery between another Threshold / speed run and at least 2 days between long runs. If you only run a couple times a week, sure do more z4/z3 runs but if you are pushing 4+ days a week you will want to polarize your training more. Why push into Z3 constantly when you can get a wider stimulus doing more z4/z2 split and be ready for harder training later.

Also Z2 should be around LT1, but not around Lactate Threshold 2 (anaerobic lactate threshold).

But I do agree, most of the benefits of z2 take a lot of time in z2 that lower time/week probably won't hit.

purodurangoalv

-1

My running changed dramatically after learning of zone 2 , from experience it worked for me. Never looked back since. He could be spitting facts but it worked for me 🤷🏽‍♂️

Immovable89

I agree with this wholeheartedly and just had this conversation running with my little brother this morning. We were running at a 10:10 pace and my HR was 128 and his was 158. I’ve been running and racing marathons for a few years, he’s going to do his first half this fall. We talked the entire time, he felt good, but he’s just so new to running as a 220 lb muscular guy that his HR will spike no matter what, same thing happened to me 4 years ago when I was way heavier. I think he’d do more harm than good trying to run 2 mins slower per mile (his HR will elevate into a higher zone either way) and compromise his gait and actual form. As he gets in shape over time it’ll start to lower and eventually then he can start to focus more on zone based running vs effort

Oli99uk

Thanks for the support. Exactly!!

I thought maybe what I wrote wasn't clear as the wrongx1000, seems to have taken it completely out of context.

For the doubters - yes you will progresss in Z2 with volume but if you are not running high enough volume and intensity that you need to manage fatigue, your fitness and efficiency will progress a LOT faster if you have more intensity. Still run hard / easy but easy should aim to be what feels efficient.

Good luck on the Marathon. Your little brother has the advantage of someone with experience guiding him. He should have a good outcome 💪

WrongX1000

-1

This is nonsense. Citations?

Oli99uk

What part is nonses and why? Do explain.

This is very easy to observe or even A:B with the next cohort you coach or run with at your club.

I explain managing straining stimulus and fatigue- it's basics of endurance training.

WrongX1000

-2

The idea that only experienced runners benefit from zone 2 training, and that beginner runners should just run faster than that, is nonsense.

musicistabarista

The only reasons for running in zone 1 and 2 are fat adaptation and avoiding injury/fatigue. Your risk of overtraining and injury obviously increase the more running you do, so these very easy runs become more critical the higher your training load.

People sometimes like to suggest that the second you start training in zone 3 or 4, that you lose all the benefits of zone 2 training for mitochondrial/capillary development etc. The reality is that any kind of aerobic exercise (including VO2 max workouts) shifts your entire exercise physiology along. So eventually, your fatmax, LT1, LT2, VO2 max etc. will respond to stimulus at any particular point along that physiological spectrum.

Zone 3 running should in theory help you build fitness faster than zone 2 running, as it's a bigger training stress. This is why base building phases often include a lot of steady running, while an athlete isn't doing marathon training length long runs or hard workouts. There's no reason why newer runners shouldn't do this, either. In fact, being able to keep your heart rate low is quite often an indicator of being fit, as much as it is a method of achieving fitness.

WrongX1000

Mitochondria development does a lot more for running fitness than just “fat adaptation.”

The base building phases that you’re advocating are largely done in zone 2 for largely that reason. You can do a shitload more volume with more frequency if it’s lower intensity, and for most runners, and especially for most beginners, that’s going to build up running fitness much faster than running harder but less volume.

If someone is actually time constrained, sure more intensity might make sense. Your point that every pace contributes to aerobic fitness is a good one.

Oli99uk

That's not at all what I wrote though. Read the post again.

Username checks out

Funny_Shake_5510

I never go by pace when it comes to zone running. If you mean Zone 2 heart rate, which is beneficial, then your pace would vary depending on the day, current conditions, etc... I don't buy into the 90 seconds slower than goal marathon pace. That seems like it would only work for certain range of race paces. Better is to go by heart rate and level of effort and try and stay in Zone 2 regardless of conditions, etc... For me sometimes I can stay sub 8 min/mile in Zone 2 when it's cool out and I'm well rested, other days in this stupid heat and humidity I'm lucky to stay in Zone 2 at 9:00-9:30 min/mile. Either way I'm getting the full benefit of running in Zone 2 regardless of pace on that day. Caveat is you need reliable heart rate monitor like chest or arm strap device, optical wrist HRM are notoriously unreliable (for most of us). Another caveat is that your heart rate zones need to be set up correctly, i.e. using Heart Rate Reserve with good estimate of resting and maximum heart rate. Some of the default watch or app set heart rate zones are WAY too conservative; ran into this very issue with a couple of my athletes I coach.

No-Captain-4814

Yup. When I first got my garmin, zone 2 was way too low. I was able to have full conversation up till zone 3. It wasn’t until I changed to HRR that the zones matched up with my RPE.

AXDEFOPI

That’s because garmin MHR Z3 is the colloquial Z2

No-Captain-4814

Yes. It can get confusing for new users with the way zone 2 is typically used currently.

purodurangoalv

-1

I train by minutes not distance so for me it’s better to just adapt to whatever my heart rate is saying since no matter what I’m gonna have to be out there an hour no matter how fast I run so might as well run slow

Funny_Shake_5510

Training by distance or time is irrelevant the point is to train at proper level of effort for the prescribed workout.

WrongX1000

our coach is saying that we all need to slow down so that no one's HR goes above 139 during the bulk of our runs

This is, um, absolute horse shit. HR zones are hugely individual. I’m 45, 139 is comfortably within zone 1 for me. Just under 170 is where I transition from zone 2 to zone 3.

All that said, I ran a lot of training miles slower than 9:30 when I ran 3:18. Idk your weekly mileage, but running a shit ton of slow miles is a pretty good way to train for the marathon.

GrandNegasWorf

How did you determine your HR zones?

WrongX1000

This article has some links: https://evokeendurance.com/setting-your-hear-rate-zones/

GrandNegasWorf

Okay cool. So you’re using the 4 Zone system and did some of the aerobic and anaerobic threshold tests. Which ones did you use? There were a few methods for top of Zone 2 and couldn’t find the method for top of Zone 1.

WrongX1000

There’s not really a good test for top of zone 1 AFAIK. I think maybe some of the lab tests might determine how your energy systems shift, but I’ve never done them and I dont think you need a precise zone 1 estimate for training. I normally just plug in 10% lower than zone 2.

I’ve done the heart rate drift test — pick a pace, run for an hour on a track, and if your hr goes up by more than 5% it was too fast. If not, your zone 2 is at least as high as your hr for the first 30 minutes or so. You may need to do it a few times if you guess wrong at first.

Top of zone 3 I usually take from a 10k.

Max HR… run really hard uphill a few times until you feel like you’re going to die and see where the HR maxes out. Fortunately this doesn’t really change with training. The other thresholds do, so you may need to be a little flexible as your fitness changes.

HTH

TRun_1

Depending on your age and max HR it's entirely possible that a HR in the 140s is Zone 2 for you.

Zone 2 aside, if you have access to a PT or similar it's probably worth looking into what specifically about running slower causes the discomfort.

Complete_Tonight_568

I have only been running for a few months. My "zone 2“ runs are done at 140bpm with a max HR of 188bpm...so technically I am in zone 3. But I con hold a conversation and my recovery has been fine so I just stick with it and it's been working. For me to be legit zone 2, like 130bpm I would have to run/walk or run so slow it almost wouldn't be running at all.

purodurangoalv

-1

The only difference between zone 2&3 is that at zone 3 your body starts to use a bit of carbs for energy, yes it’s still using fat but not as efficiently. The whole point of zone 2 training is to teach your body to use fat as fuel for as long as possible to be efficient and save energy . The body has an unlimited amount of fat to use as energy but only about 90 minutes of stored carbs. So even if you run/walk it doesn’t matter because you’re specifically training for that zone. Who cares what the pace is that’s why and how you build an aerobic base. My zone 2 pace rn is around the 8:30 min/mile but when I started it was around 10 min miles, it didn’t start to change until I got disciplined in running slow just like I was in running fast.

rnr_

Blanket heart rate zones for an entire group have no basis in reality. If it hurts to run slow, run a little faster. As long as you can hold a conversation while running, your pace is fine (eg, in zone 2 per what your coach seems to be trying to do).

FantasticAd1251

What is it about your gait that changes that makes slower paces hurt compared to faster? Are you significantly changing your stride length or cadence? I noticed I used to have shin splint issues when I ran around 160spm but if I force myself to shorten my stride and focus on not over striding at 170+spm at 10m/mi it tends to cause less impact, but does almost feel like shuffling.

Worst case you could always try cross training to get your zone 2 in.

hli29

Nasal breathing is what I am trying now

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