They did it. They finally beat me.

I was just denied my bar certification even though I passed the exam.

Applied to law school one year, got rejected from every one. Didn't give up.

Retook the LSAT and reapplied, got into a top 20 school. Started school during covid, failed two classes. Didn't give up.

Near the end of my 3L year, I couldn't afford to feed myself. Didn't give up.

Moved back in with my parents in a shitass small town to study for the bar. Worked three jobs before I started studying. Didn't give up.

Took the bar, got over 300 on my first try. Top 0.7 percentile for Crim Law. Told my character and Fitness exam needed further inquiry because of an arrest at a protest. Didn't give up.

Just found out today that my certification was denied because I turned in an exam 10 minutes late on accident and forgot to mention it. I give up.

in LawSchoolby Ok_Neighborhood7838

1.5K

91%

1mo

TitosandDeebos

654

1mo

Was the 10 min late mentioned by the school beforehand? Like did you get in trouble for it at the time?

Asking for a friend because I’ve never even heard of that being an issue. And wondering how the C&F would know about it.

Underboss572

316

Attorney

1mo

OP likely got some informal academic conduct inquiry, even something as simple as being called to a dean's office.

That got into a file somewhere and sent to the bar. Some of the dean's certifications also have a line(S) asking the dean if they know of any issues.

So once it was reported to the bar, and OP didn't disclose they were in trouble. Had they not been arrested, it probably would have ended at a show cause hearing or supplemental information request. But with their history, they probably didn't have any more grace. It is a tough break for sure, but when you already have a conduct issue, you need to dot every I and cross every T.

Edit here is TNs which I had to get filled out when I applied https://www.tnble.org/wp-content/uploads/2023/02/NON-US-LAW-DEGREE-VERIFICATION-AND-DEANS-CERTIFICATION-1.2023-fillable.pdf

LowBand5474

1mo

TNBLE is absolutely brutal.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

133

1mo

Dotted every i and crossed every t, but I forgot about every j and f

Ok_Neighborhood7838

303

1mo

The 10 min late was mentioned by the school. It was an Honor Code Violation. I was 100% told that I needed to tell the bar, but I just...forgot. I'm not a liar, just an idiot. Maybe I deserve this, I don't know. Not the school's fault in the slightest. The Character and Fitness Application said that I should mention Honor Code Violations, and I just failed to do so. It's my fault.

joejoexx

494

1mo

Request to have a hearing before the Board by appealing the decision. Hire an attorney. Get character and fitness witnesses and have people write letters on your behalf. Show them you’re a good person that just made a mistake. Plenty of people do much worse. Show them you’re better than what they think they see on paper based on an honest mistake. Good luck and don’t give up!

JurisDrew

100

1mo

I concur with this wholeheartedly OP. The tenacity and perseverance you've demonstrated will serve you well in this profession, and there are plenty of successful lawyers with much, much worse transgressions in their histories. Own up to your mistake and fight for your place at the bar, you are human and one lapse does not a career make.

United_Football4902

224

1mo

This profession is such dogshit

spooner248

30d

Right? We have to be held to super high standards cause the lawyers before us were unethical.

joshlittle333

30d

And it doesn’t seem to result in more ethical lawyers, just smarter ones. If you’re ethical but make an administrative mistake (like op) you get denied. Meanwhile, the immoral ones, still slip through by avoiding getting caught.

spooner248

30d

I mean the entire purpose of this organization is to gatekeep. That’s why we keep getting rich, entitled attorneys, because they’re generally the ones that can afford all of this! I’d argue that anyone that can read and handle abuse can be an attorney. But only those that can afford the crushing debt and all the fees along the way can get the title

Scared-End6288

30d

Or the rich ones. I was filling out some stuff the other day because of tax issues I had in the past. It wasn’t intentional, but a mistake I corrected but still have to report to the bar. And I was thinking, some of my classmates have accountants filing their taxes because their parents are rich. They are not gonna have any issues on their records. Same for loans too. Kids of rich parents ain’t gonna have loans that’s gonna become a problem.

Whend6796

30d

I am sorry that these power tripping people get off on the power they have over others lives.

thepulloutmethod

Esq.

1mo

It really is.

Historical-Shark77

30d

This is the comment. Don’t give up OP, it’s ok to feel like you’re feeling right now, but once you’re done feeling all the feelings, rise up, friend. The profession needs you!

Somnisixsmith

1mo

This

therealusernamehere

30d

You are too close not to consult with a character and fitness attorney in your state. There has been licensed attorneys with much worse records. Get someone that knows the system and let them tell you what you need to do.

Theistus

1mo

Dude... That 100% sucks ass, but DO NOT give up.

A friend of mine was denied on moral character grounds because she had a prior arson charge in undergrad. It was a bullshit charge to begin with, it was a party and they had a fire in the backyard, and in typical frat house fashion they were burning all kinds of shit, including their own back door (yeah, I know frats are dumb).

Party is obviously rowdy as hell. Cops get called and they do what cops do. She's the only one sober so she's talking to them, they see the door in the fire and the long and short of it is "either somebody confesses or we arrest everyone here" so she that's one for the team. It's only later that she realizes she's being charged with a FELONY and she's too broke for a lawyer, and she gets convinced by the PD to plead it out. Turns out this is considered a "crime of moral turpitude" and she was flatly DENIED entry.

She worked her ass off for years after that, and kept reapplying and repetitioning and appealing. Finally, after 5 years I think? (this was about a year after I met her through volunteer work), I and several other lawyers she had met along the way, (one of whom is basically the top employment law defense attorney) employers, basically anybody who's anybody, wrote letters of recommendation, talking about the injustice of the system, our personal knowledge of her good character and hard work.... And they finally RELENTED.

She is now a kick ass immigration attorney making bank.

I know this sucks right now. But pick yourself up and just keep living your best life. She ended up just randomly falling in with a volunteer group that happens to attract a fair number of lawyers (it's not a legal volunteer thing, we're just weird), and because she was awesome we all went to bat for her.

Unless you are dead or in jail, there's always hope. So keep being awesome. Keep showing that work ethic. And keep at it until they give it to you out of sheer annoyance.

tpotts16

1mo

You don’t deserve that for such a minor set of mistakes.

BKachur

Esq.

30d

What the other guy said. Lawyer up appeal it ,get a free friends to give you good recs if your character. I had a friend that told me he was reporting a dumb ass due he got while on a golf cart on campus in undergrad. He told thr bar but it didnt make it to his law shool app. Yjree years and a bar exam later, denied by c&f and had to get a Lawyer and fight it. I ended up being a character witness and gave on thr phone testimony at a heaing. He's a successful attorney today.

This socks bur your not a villian, you'll get over it. It's just gonna be a pain. Be humble and own the mistake. Gonna go a long way.

Einbrecher

Attorney

1mo

Sorry to be blunt, but how the hell do you forget that? With as much doom and gloom that gets assigned C&F applications, an honor code violation isn't something I'd lump under "forgettable experiences."

I mean, I agree with everyone here that the honor code violation itself isn't a reason to keep your license from you, and I definitely 2nd/3rd/etc. recommendations to talk to a C&F lawyer - because this is fixable.

But it is still a little concerning that, when specifically prompted for it, your answer was a flat "no" for something that couldn't have happened more than a year and a half earlier.

Woahhhski34

1mo

Nah you’ve come to far and worked too hard for this. You got it OP keep up the grind

Reasonable-Crazy-132

30d

Dude, I'm so sorry. As if this could somehow be reflective of poor integrity as an attorney... it often sounds like the system is just designed to make future lawyers nervous and screw over those like you, not actually weed out shady folks.

ChrissyBeTalking

1mo

🤯🤯🤯

lazarusl1972

30d

How was turning in an exam 10 minutes late an honor code violation?

Ok_Neighborhood7838

30d

In the University of Minnesota's honor code's current form, the rule against taking extra time on an exam is Article II, Section 2.01(h).

ItsGivingLies

30d

I’m sorry but what in the actual fuck. You turned in an exam late. Why is that even on your permanent record? And how could all of your hard work be tossed out FOR THAT??

There has to be something you can do??

caveat_emptor817

30d

Yeah it’s weird that it’s an honor code violation instead of just a zero. I feel like my school would have just not accepted it and given me an F on the exam.

HuckleberryNo99

30d

Sit in any crim class in law school, and you have this perpetrator as victim focus, innuendo that prosecutors use the law to restrict marginalized people from thriving, etc.

But stand before the bar, and it’s back to elitism.

this_is_not_the_cia

460

Esq.

1mo

Get an attorney that specializes in C&F issues and have them handle this for you. It's worth every penny so you can get your license.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

279

1mo

Not sure I want it at this point. Tired of the struggle, and I haven't even started.

Edit: I'm allowed to be bitter and dramatic about this, stop downvoting me

TheNerdyFratGuy

227

1mo

I refuse your conclusion. You’re allowed to be bitter and dramatic only if you get back up. Those who stay down cannot complain. Life is hard but you are harder. Go read David Goggins first book or mans search for meaning by Victor Frankel. You can, you will, and you must. Have the courage to live a big life.

morganmce

142

1mo

You’re allowed to be upset and feel your emotions, but as my therapist told me, you don’t want to live there.

GirlsLikeStatus

30d

Oh, I’m going to steal this one.

ChrissyBeTalking

1mo

Struggle sucks. Be mad! Then Meditate,and get the lawyer. You shouldn’t have to go through this but you are. There is no reason that you shouldn’t be able to join the bar after passing the bar exam and not being a felon. I actually know a ex-felon who is an attorney.

There was a time in my life where it seemed like everything was hard for some reason. Nothing could just flow. Now, everything is easier. I know you won’t believe me because you’ll be a lawyer when you straighten this out, and my answer is fluffy.

But since you’re writing this and I’m procrastinating from writing a complaint, I’ll tell you. Now, this was not overnight for me. It took YEARS and I’m only thinking about it because of what you wrote.

Anyway, I was catching the bus to this interview. My car wasn’t working because such was my life at the time. So the bus was supposed to come at 6:30p. I got there at 6:28 pm. Just in time to see the last bus leaving the area. So I went home and this tv show came on and the theme of the show was rewriting the script of your life.

The guy on the show said that I had to start taking full accountability for every single thing in my life and stop blaming people. I didn’t think I blamed people, but he had the audacity to use as a freaking example, supposed you arrive on time for the bus and you see it leaving 5 minutes early. The natural inclination is to get angry at the driver. But the only person you can control is you. You should have gotten there earlier. Of course I bussed out crying and I was pissed because it wasn’t my fault that the bus left early! (As a lawyer, I would defend the F out of my client for this) However, I was crying because I had to admit that I could have gotten to the bus stop earlier and it was really hard for me not to blame the people who contributed to my jams, but I had to admit that I could have made better choices. I decided to take responsibility for every aspect of my life to rewrite the script of who I was as a person. And whenever anything happened, I would think, how did I contribute to this?

I don’t know the science behind it, but I know that taking responsibility for my stuff, not blaming anyone else and changing my mindset about what I deserved, slowly but surely changed my life in terms of always getting the short end of the stick.

Also, part of me changing my perspective became asking myself what I’ve learned from the calamities.

Our minds are more powerful than we know. You believe you are smart enough to be an attorney, but I think you also believe that there is a system set up to keep you from your goals. You have to let go of that latter belief. I have no facts to support this. Only intuition. I’ll leave the practical advice to the others.

I’m sorry this happened to you. I know if you don’t give up. It will work out. I only know because I read those PR cases. Remember the guy who got denied because he had too many parking tickets? He’s been a lawyer in Chicago for 20 years. The one where the guy practiced law without a license because he was a cop. He’s also a lawyer.

This too shall pass.

Smooth-Screen-5250

30d

On the flip side … sometimes, you just get fucked over and nothing goes right no matter what you do. You have a lot of control in setting up the circumstances in a way that will make you most likely to succeed, but sometimes that’s just not what’s in store for you. Doesn’t mean “give up,” but it does mean you shouldn’t beat yourself up for it. OP got fucked over, regardless of whatever technicality justified the decision. They did their best knowing what they knew. And now they know more, and so they should roll the dice again after adjusting the circumstances.

There’s a big benefit to self-criticism and asking oneself for their personal contribution to failures. Personal responsibility is important, and like you said — the only person you have any control over is yourself. But there’s also the massive confidence hit that comes along with it. Sometimes, things just go wrong and there’s nothing you could’ve done about it. That doesn’t mean you can’t get back up and try again, it means that you tried your best knowing what you did and you shouldn’t beat yourself up that you drew a shit hand.

I dunno. I agree finding room for self-improvement is important. But for me, that became a problem, especially once I found myself in a toxic relationship. My partner was abusing me and I was too focused on my own “contributions” to it that I hadn’t bothered to think “no, actually I don’t deserve to be abused and it’s not my fault that my partner is cruel.”

BunnyInTheM00n

1mo

Get your shit together and call the appropriate people to have your case heard. You did not study all these years to come this far just to be told no.

No, go to sleep, get up early make those calls, and stop being a pussy and talking about giving up .

mind_mischief_89

30d

I'm assuming you have student loans? Speaking as a lawyer, there was no way I was NOT going to practice law for as long as it took to get out from under my loans. I imagine you feel the same way.

staywithme26

Attorney

1mo

But logically, what else are you going to do? You worked this hard already and are almost there. Just get over the last hurdle

Towels95

30d

I get that you’re tired and you can’t see the light at the end of the tunnel but I promise you: we can. You’re on the last couple miles of this marathon.

Lentex

1mo

Oh Jesus, give me a break man

CarelessClementine

1mo

Omg I’m so sorry. What Jx?

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

Pennsylvania.

KantianLion

1mo

Just transfer your ube score to another jurisdiction (DC C&F wasn't too bad). Then when you apply, be sure to mention this fact on your character and fitness investigation. I'm sure that the 10-minute late test is not the problem, it was the lack of transparency about it.

It's okay to feel defeated for a little bit. But to give up completely after all the effort seems like a waste.

I had a friend who passed everything but failed the character in fitness due to his many juvenile arrests. He had to lawyer up and fight back, pointing out that he grew up in an area that was over policed and that none of those arrests ever resulted in any kind of conviction.

I mean, why give up now?

IsNotACleverMan

NYU Shill

30d

Just transfer your ube score to another jurisdiction (DC C&F wasn't too bad). Then when you apply, be sure to mention this fact on your character and fitness investigation.

Pretty sure he'll have to disclose being denied admission to the bar even if he applies in a new jurisdiction. I don't think that solves anything.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

30d

You're exactly right

KantianLion

30d

A prior denial is not determinative of the outcome. It's merely a factor. Maybe try applying to Washington State. They famously approved Shon Hopwood, the jailhouse- lawyer-now-turned Georgetown professor , who did 12 years for robbing multiple banks. If that can pass character and fitness, so can a 10-minute late test.

All that being said, if you want to walk away from this career, you definitely can. I'd like to think most folks on here are just trying to be encouraging, not commanding. At the end of the day, I just want you to be happy, however that may look for you.

I've had plenty of colleagues decide it wasn't the industry for them whether it was during, after, or long after law school. And there's plenty of JD advantage jobs that exist as well, which don't require a bar license.

I apologize that I jumped to offering suggestions, when maybe all you needed was an ear. I know for me venting helps, so if that's all you need, I respect it.

lazarusl1972

30d

Yeah, I've applied to a couple of state bars in the past year and they all ask that question.

Celeste_BarMax

30d

I was thinking this. YES, they will ask if you were denied in another jurisdiction, but it's not an automatic "no."

Obviously: you turned in an exam 10 minutes late, your school cleared you in the process but of course it was an (accused?) AC violation, you are mortified that you didn't think to report it last time, very apologetic, contrite, acknowledging responsibility etc etc.

Talking to a C&F lawyer might help you have an idea the places likely to be more circumspect under those circumstances. Get licensed SOMEWHERE. Darn it you've earned it.

joejoexx

30d

If you need resources of who to go to or what to do for Pennsylvania in this situation, please don’t hesitate to DM. It’s worth fighting it.

Realistic_Gear_8633

1mo

Or go to NY!

channi_nisha

118

1mo

I think you can appeal that decision.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

I can, not sure I want to.

Edit: I'm allowed to say that I don't want to keep going down this career path, why are you guys downvoting me

channi_nisha

1mo

Don’t give up. You’ve come so far

Edit: I don’t understand why people are downvoting OP. They’re going through a tough time, don’t be an AH

mathiustus

1mo

It’s simple brosef, you’re in your feelings and stuck in a defeatist mindset. People upvote posts they like or agree with and downvote ones they don’t like or disagree with.

Your posts don’t read like, I’m down and I feel hopeless but I’m gonna keep going. They just read, I failed, it’s too hard, and I think I’m justified in quitting.

The downvotes are boos that you’re surrendering. The people in this sub cannot and should not be nor encourage quitters because law school is rough. You actually finished it. You’re this close and it sounds like you’re gonna let it snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

In summary, booooooooooooooooooo.

mbfunke

1mo

[GIF]

Friendly_Rub_8095

1mo

They’re downvoting you giving up because they don’t want to see you fail at the last. It’s not a bad thing.

Lighten up and remember you came here and posted. Take comments on the chin instead of sticking that chin out with triggered indignation every time

Unhappy_Cicada7754

1mo

Pick your ass up

ChrissyBeTalking

1mo

I got downvoted for saying DK didn’t snitch on Young Thug in the rico trial. Not on this forum. I’m just trying to be relatable. 😂

thisisbacchus

3LOL

1mo

No one knows what that means. Anywhere, ever.

ChrissyBeTalking

30d

😂😂

If you are taking CivPro or got anything less than an A in CivPro and you’re not watching this trial, you’re doing yourself a disservice. It’s insane! But it makes you want to re-read the fre & frcp like they are a novel!

https://www.reddit.com/r/YoungThug/s/PGcEiP4w9W

IllustriousApple4629

1mo

Don’t you give up, you worked so hard for this. You get back up and fight you hear me.

BenEsq

1mo

The interesting part is that I'm sure every attorney I know (myself included) has filed something at least 10 minutes late, mostly without repercussions.

Sorry you're dealing with this. I'd hire a C&F attorney to see if an appeal is possible without reapplying.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

Nervous that I can't really afford an attorney, especially if that attorney needs to be from the particular jurisdiction in question

RollDamnTide16

Esq.

30d

Your attorney would need to be from PA. Many will do a free initial phone call, so when you’re ready to start exploring your options, it might be worthwhile to call a few attorneys, explain your situation and hear what they have to say.

Goingbacktoboston

1mo

Is this a troll post or for real?

AnonLawStudent22

148

1mo

Their comment history shows some indication of gong to law school and studying for the bar. But I find it a bit hard to believe a top 20 school failed someone twice during Covid. And the exam thing seems very weird without more details.

epicbackground

1mo

He does mention what school he goes to in his previous comments on other posts. It seems like a fairly believable story, I am surprised the bar people at his school didn’t mention that he would have to disclose the academic problem on the bar though. But that’s school administration I suppose

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

The school did mention that I was supposed to disclose the academic problem. It isn't their fault, only mine. Like I said on a different comment: I'm not a liar, just an idiot.

wstdtmflms

Attorney

1mo

I'm having trouble finding a C&F problem, though. OP turned in an exam ten minutes late once. Okay. So what? Did OP try to bribe the professor? Did OP try to sneak the test into a pile of Bluebooks to avoid getting caught?

If the professor took it upon themself to grade the exam, whether they gave full credit or docked points, I don't understand how failure to report one late assignment rises to the level of a C&F red flag. Without more, it's a grading issue - not a student disciplinary issue. Either the board of examiners is going out of their way to inquire into why bar applicants got the law school grades that they got, or there's something else going on here. It just doesn't add up.

Einbrecher

Attorney

1mo

From other comments, it looks like OP got an honor code violation for the exam thing but never reported it on their C&F application. Since part of C&F also includes asking the school for any conduct issues, the school would have reported it.

The failure to disclose + previous arrest are likely why they got denied.

Had OP disclosed, they'd likely have gotten a stern warning along with an approval.

wstdtmflms

Attorney

30d

Interesting. Feels weird that it's an honor code violation to turn work in late. Bad practice if you want to do well and graduate on time. But not sure how it relates to some kind of cheating or dishonesty that is usually the subject matter of such policies. Maybe the school's just weird.

Einbrecher

Attorney

30d

Wildly guessing here, but the exam software likely flagged it automatically as being past some threshold.

Insofar that cheating is giving yourself an unfair advantage over other test takers that you're being competitively graded against, I'd say going a whole 10 minutes over time definitely qualifies.

If it were just a few minutes, then they'd have likely been fine.

epicbackground

1mo

That's beyond the scope of my knowledge lol. idk how C&F works tbh

sportstvandnova

Esq.

1mo

This might be ignorant on my part but do some states give you a.) your score and b.) a breakdown of it??? Virginia doesn’t give you but a “pass,” “pass but you’re on list B so you’ve gotta get some shit together and then you’re good,” or a “lol you’re not on either list, try again.”

dwaynetheaakjohnson

1mo

Some states indeed do, including the exact subject and how much you need to improve

sportstvandnova

Esq.

1mo

Huh. Must be nice. I’m always envious of those ppl on LinkedIn who are like “I PASSED THE BAR WITH A HIGH ENOUGH SCORE TO PRACTICE ANYWHERE!!!” and meanwhile I was like “I passed Virginia! Yayyy!” lol

wstdtmflms

Attorney

1mo

In Kansas and California, the policy is not to publish scores or ranks for those passing. A pass is a pass is a pass. They only provide them to exam takers who do not pass to provide a frame of reference for re-taking or appealing.

bofoshow51

1mo

PA gives both score and a subject by subject essay by essay breakdown with percentiles.

[deleted]

1mo

It's probably "real" insofar as he is a person that exists, and these outcomes did occur, but not exclusively for the reasons he's claiming.

Terrible_Stranger339

1mo

There should be another solution you are pretty damn close don't give up

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

I can appeal the decision, try a different state, or pick a different career. I need a day or two to decide.

GreatExpectations65

30d

I am not in Pennsylvania. But I do character and fitness proceedings in other states.

You f’ed up my man. Right now it looks like you intentionally lied to C&F which is the biggest transgression you can make. You can appeal and you’ll eventually win but you need to hire a lawyer and you need to grovel. You’ll get there but it’s going to take some time, energy, and money. You’re going to need to convince them that you truly forgot and that you’re incredibly incredibly sorry for that.

No_Complex92

1mo

And what’s the other side of the story?

Internetstranger800

1mo

One side of the story is enough for me to make a rash judgement and share it with others as if it were fact.

What’s your problem Mr “I want both sides of the story” man?

GroundbreakingIron42

1mo

Right? Like who needs both sides of the story its the internet im here to fight injustice by commenting on subreddits. Stop killing my vibe

chert925

1mo

PA is UBE. 300 on UBE you can still take your score and apply to another state and this time disclose your issue with explanation in C&F. After couple years you can waive back into PA.

If you wana…

Professional-Book973

1mo

Please keep trying. You can appeal a C&F I'm pretty sure. I know that one of my classmates had several DUIs and grand theft on his record and he still passed C&F. It took a long ass time and he had to go to hearings and shit, but he did it. Don't stop.

PsychLegalMind

1mo

You cannot give up without a real fight. Must appeal the determination. In any event, plenty of jobs in the interim with people having a JD. Including companies with H.R. as well as law offices where you can render services as a paralegal.

Federal, state and local governments that render administrative services such as workmen's compensation, those that address labor laws, as in discrimination. Medicare related services such as CMS and U.S. Health Department and social security offices as well as VA.

bundangjam

1mo

Guys, just let OP rant and breathe... It takes time to digest this event and everyone constantly suggesting things instead of hearing OP is what is triggering OP (imo -- OP you can correct me if I'm wrong)

Plastic_Shrimp

1mo

You seem like a fighter with a shit ton of grit, fight it. Go through the hearing process. You put in the hard work. Don't stop now.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

Thanks, that was kind.

myeyesarecircles94

1mo

Given how much you've been though to get this far, show yourself the love and compassion to seek justice on your own behalf. It's what we will do for our clients, it's what you should do for yourself too. I know that entry to this profession is just bar to entry after bar to entry, over and over again -- and that is SO frustrating. But once you're there, you're there, and maybe you can help others on their journey. Or at least be an example to others that the fight they're fighting will be worth it! From one internet stranger to another, I'm very impressed with all that you've gone through to get to where you are- keep fighting for your happy ending. :)

Agreeable_Daikon_686

1mo

Pretty sure Jose baez didn’t pass the bar character thing for a long time. Know he’s not loved but there’s world famous attorneys that didn’t get through the first time

Pompsy

Attorney

1mo

I totally read that as Javy Baez and I thought I learned something about the shortstop today.

Agreeable_Daikon_686

1mo

How do you think the Astros got off Scott free for cheating?

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

Should I post the letter I got from the PA Board of Bar Examiners? Or is that crazy?

bleucheez

1mo

Can you try a different state? And then get a federal job?

MadTownMich

1mo

Hire an attorney to appeal. This is not the kind of thing that should keep you out of the bar. Keep going.

lickedurine

1mo

JD advantage instead of bar seems like a solid redirect if you don't want to fight this seemingly minor set back. You've dealt with and overcome so much more in the past 3 years.

But it's your life. Some of us empathize and others don't. I hope everything works out for you becoming an attorney, but you can use that JD to your benefit without needing bar passage.

Defiant-Medicine-785

Adjunct Professor

1mo

That’s insane. A friend of mine forgot to submit her electronic MEE answers to the fucking bar exam and the state bar let her submit them the next day.

slyfoley

1mo

[GIF]

get back up one more time playa ☝️

SuperLoris

JD+PhD

30d

Get a character and fitness attorney. Don’t give up.

Crispus_Attukus

1mo

Ngl this sounds like a troll. You are not just denied. You have to appear before a board in most states; they don’t just say fuckoff. If I am wrong, please school me.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

Here I am, schooling you. You're wrong.

Edit: A few more details because people don't seem to believe me. I have 30 days to appeal. I am not required to travel to PA to appear before the board. You are actually quite wrong.

lazarusl1972

30d

I don't think you're a troll but I do think you're selectively providing information. Turning in an exam 10 minutes late isn't an honor code violation - there must be more to the story than that. You posted seeking sympathy, not advice, and you knew if you told the true story you wouldn't get any sympathy.

Is that better or worse than being a troll?

GroundbreakingIron42

1mo

Not sure about “have to” but as to the rest i can confirm you are not wrong

Souledin3000

1mo

I already expect to be denied first time and expect to work an extra year to get in. You're almost at the finish line.

Crispus_Attukus

1mo

For what reason and which Jx?

IsNotACleverMan

NYU Shill

30d

What did you do?

excitedidiot

Esq.

1mo

Dude... Talk to an ethics attorney. This is so fixable.

"I never give up, but I give up." Pull your fucking pants up and problem solve. You can do this.

boxlifter

1mo

That sucks. I got arrested 7 times and had a host of other documented prior issues. I passed character and fitness, but it was hell. Had to fly to San Fran at state bar HQ and get grilled round table style. Though my raw honesty about everything is what got me through. I remember walking out assuming I was completely fucked and my life was over. At that point I didn’t even know if I had passed the bar exam (I did). Things work out eventually. Keep pushing

phishphood17

30d

Take a few days to be pissed off as hell. Get your anger out however you need to. And then appeal. You are SO CLOSE!

holygrail313

30d

Sunk cost fallacy OP. You don’t have to do anything if you don’t want. Fight the power!

random_account6721

30d

what are you smoking. Finish the certs and make the money wtf.

Admirable_Fun_8100

30d

Appeal that

Responsible_Comb_884

1mo

You will not give up

TemporarilyFerret

1mo

You're going to let some fussy administrator turn you down on a technicality?

Fuck that person, fuck that shit, they only get to turn you away here if you let them.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

No, let's try not to blame any one person. Just an annoying system that is justifiably designed to keep about bad characters. I just happen to think that they kept out the wrong person.

TemporarilyFerret

30d

I'm glad you think so, I was just trying to pump you up; I can get heated about how intransigent the administrators of these professional bodies can be, I experienced nearly a 6 month delay in getting my certification (not in law, but in another profession) due to a careless error I made on my graduation date on a form. I swapped the day and month, putting my graduation date in the future, and my correction of this error took it's sweet time working it's way through the bureaucratic tubes. This was compounded by COVID, with the delay resulting in a missed deadline for an exam registration, further delaying my credentialing.

I know the frustration, and I at many times in the process thought "maybe I should just learn programming and transition to some low meaning, high wage job at a tech firm". It can be tempting, but is it what you really want?

potnia_theron

1mo

At least now you can file lots of petty pro se lawsuits against the school without repercussion.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

It isn't the school's fault. They told me what I was supposed to do, I just failed to get it right.

potnia_theron

1mo

Real non-lawyer energy there.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

What do you mean? Not sure I understand you here

Squirrel009

1mo

Orher than making absolutely sure you never get accepted

trollerdudeguy

Attorney

1mo

What protest

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

A protest in Uptown Minneapolis after the death of Daunte Wright.

trollerdudeguy

Attorney

1mo

Definitely appeal about the exam. My friend got a DUI the week before he submitted his bar app and got officially certified 2 years later. Don't give up

msnicole17

1mo

I am so sorry. I know it seems like a lot to appeal, but please consider it. I would hate for you to regret appealing in a year or two and it being too late. You deserve to be admitted - even if you decide another career path, admission to the Bar opens doors and gives you some options. Good luck, and hang in there!

AgeGold309

1mo

Nobody deserves this horrific nonsense, please fight it with a C&F lawyer. The bar needs to be completely reformed if not abolished, the current racket is a joke designed to screw specific already screwed people.

Funny-Zookeepergame1

1mo

You only lose if you give up. Don't! There's plenty of great advice here to get you what you want. After all of the struggle and adversity that you have faced, to throw in the towel at this point is a disservice to yourself and your family. Don't let this be the end. If you do, you will live with the regret of doing so for the rest of your life. Some battles are worth fighting, and this is surely one of them.

15stripepurplebelt

1mo

Set up a gofundme and appeal.

elcoopgguod

30d

Just happened to see this and not even being sarcastic. Y’all smart motherfuckers stay getting fucked I’ve noticed sounds like ya work hard and they fuck yea so I’m sorry y’all put so much into this shit to maybe even defend a loser like me one day just to get fucked by ten minutes. Y’all rock we need you

niceworkbonedaddy

30d

Please don’t give up. They don’t win until you stop fighting.

monroypalacio

1mo

What exam did you turn in late?

BiaggioSklutas

30d

Is that the real reason?

Ok_Neighborhood7838

30d

Yes

Top_Anything5077

1mo

Are you trolling? Bc you keep criticizing people for downvoting you, and that’s a matter of opinion

vac2672

30d

Arrested at a protest? What law were you breaking? Sounds like more to the story here

Ok_Neighborhood7838

30d

I was filming someone else's arrest and was standing too close. The cops asked me to step back, but I kinda just stood there. I was being cocky. I was in the wrong.

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

Anyway, what's the best JD Advantage job out there?

Salty-Caregiver-6553

1mo

KPMG! If you’re okay with consulting work for a little they usually start at 6 figs for ppl with a JD.

Also, if you want to open your field do an LLM in tax, this would open up a lot of tax opportunities that would start you at 6 figures or high 5 figures.

Sad this has happened to you, but you an also hire a PR attorney to help you appeal your bar admissions (I recommend this! This happened to a student at my school and they won the appeal and were admitted into NY)

self-chiller

1mo

How realistic is it for a grad who has been practicing for a while to get a job at KPMG? Asking for uhhh a friend.

Salty-Caregiver-6553

1mo

I’ve heard for KPMG you need an internal referral, so potentially cold emailing /linkedin would help? PWC seems to be cold applying or internal referral works, personally I don’t have knowledge of this but have heard these route lead to success!

User deleted comment

1mo

Ok_Neighborhood7838

1mo

That's it.

EnvironmentPrize9950

1mo

bro this is fucking ridiculous! I am applying to the CA bar and was informed it routinely allows convicted felons practice law in our state as long as the criminal conduct was DISCLOSED on the C&F. In CA you can appeal a denial within 30 days. This may be an option for you, if not when can you reapply?

Acrobatic-Baker-5259

1mo

You worked so hard. Please don't give up. I have faith in you.

ElHanko

Esq.

1mo

Take a day or two, do whatever you need to do to blow off steam and feel your feelings. Then pick yourself up, work with a C&F attorney, and keep fighting. This sucks now, and yeah there’s no promise of a good outcome. But you’ve already proven that you have the ability to take body blows then get back up and keep fighting until you win. You can do so again. And someday, when someone else needs help through a nadir, you’ll be there lighting the path, because you’ve seen the way out of the darkness yourself. Hang in there.

Fortepopov

1mo

Nowhere near your position but I am finishing 1L under the assumption that the VA would cover costs. They granted benefits, then negates right before I started. I'm not a great student but I have a solid career. Regardless, I was reliant on their initial entitlement and now I'm fucked and may just eat useless 1L year.

Everyone has their own story, including yourself. You're near the end. Weigh the cost to benefits. You'll make the right decision.

rotundifoliate

1mo

Be a jury consultant

Ok-Cap9541

1mo

You’re almost there , you worked so hard to be at this point , don’t just give up. I’ve seen so many people avoid success just when they’re about to accomplish it. Never give up

CombCultural5907

1mo

When you consider the shady crap that lots of lawyers actually pull, you’d think a few dings on the old record would be an advantage!

sifaka1423

30d

DONT GIVE UP ! Something worth struggling for is worth struggling a little more for!

PhilistineAu

30d

Give it a few days. Let it settle. Then appeal.

lekinick

30d

Don’t give up now

Old-Whole-7126

30d

Hey, I admire your tenacity (OP). I struggle myself as an older student (100% disabled on SSI). I am not the greatest student in the class, but I show up everyday. It is an ordeal. Lots of schools told me to piss off bc I didn't a great LSAT score, you did, it shows you are smart, plus you got into a top 20 school. That would have be a dream enough for me. You totally kicked ass on the BAR exam which for me, all I want to do is pass the BAR. I could give a rats ass about LR, Moot Court, Honor Society. I just want to pass the bar so I can pay back these loans.

If you think you got fucked by the Certification folks, after all this! Then you need to fight it, your were tenacious and driven before fight for what you feel is right. However, if you purposely neglected to mention issues that could have an effect on your future then that is something you'll have to figure out on your own as to why you did what you did. Try to learn from this experience either way by fighting for yourself because it truly was a mistake or owning up to it on your own time. You have been through a lot. Whatever you chose, if what you said in this post about yourself (struggles, tenacity etc.) is true, you will land on your feet with whatever decision you chose to pursue. I'm doing this LS now. It's hard, I totally get it I'm living the dream now (LOL), you kicked ass. The mission isn't over, move forward. Whatever the case, you sound like a younger person you have your whole life ahead over you. You will make something happen, chose your direction wisely.

Carrotcake7890

30d

Don’t give up. You’ve worked way too hard to not fight this. DO IT. Dust yourself off and do what you have to. Your future self will thank you.

Goochbaloon

30d

I am not surprised - they do this sometimes. Lawyer up, prepare to invest even more money into this. Remember, there are plenty of jobs/opportunities for a T1 Law Grad that do not require a bar card. You can do this OP

Tomsb02

30d

Go to court. That’d be badass.

GoobieRilloBillo

30d

Apply somewhere else and transfer your score. Or do some community service and try again in a few months with an appeal

Caa3098

30d

I would have given up at like obstacle #1 lol

No resiliency/perseverance gang represent!

WeirEverywhere802

30d

This screams North Carolina

Shanna2023

30d

So sorry to hear this. Do not let anyone beat you down. I know it’s not ideal, but can you apply for a new certification?

ConvictedGaribaldi

30d

Apply to a different state bar?

SimpleCraving

30d

Why were you arrested at a protest?

lawmandan81

30d

After all that, that's what beat you........ maybe just feeling defested rightfully so but you're only beat if you absolutely quit and don't get up

importantverbs

30d

I am so sorry this happened to you. You sound like just the tenacious sort who'd make an excellent lawyer. I can imagine you applying that dogged perseverance to your clients and sincerely hope you are given the chance to practice someday. However, I want to stress that you are still a champion for everything you've accomplished so far and its perfectly valid and OK to not want to put any additional time, money, or energy into pursuing bar admittance. Remember there are still plenty of really cool JD advantage jobs. Your law school career center could point you in the right direction. In fact, your story would probably make you especially attractive to some organizations "This is the guy who was denied being a lawyer because he deigned to peacefully protest!"

This post COVID world is weird. When I was in law school it would be actually impossible to turn an exam in late because the software would have automatically closed and submitted it when time ran out. I hate that your school didn't have that same system of exams.

PangolinSea4995

30d

What state? DM me

Alternative-Craft958

30d

Don't give up.

Available_Damage_870

30d

Why bother? In ten years, AI will do away with lawyers. Find a profession that doesn't eat you alive and kill your spirit. Or you can sue them you should know how to do it.

JalfeJDLLM

30d

It seems as if minor transgressions and mistakes on application are treated more harshly than criminal records. I know a guy who did a 90 stint in county for a 5th DWI, and was initially denied, then won his appeal. I was denied because I made several mistakes on my application for minor things that were 15+ years old (couldn't even find records) and they denied me for candor - never mind I had no criminal record, and had multiple federal securities licenses.

owns_dirt

30d

Bro we know you aren't giving up. Take the day off - you earned it - and come back to it tomorrow.

strappednotclapped

30d

Idk like I hope you eventually get in but I kinda see where they’re coming from… the 10 minutes late exam was mentioned by the school and you were instructed to report it but you “forgot” about . Idk it kinda seems like OP tried to slip it under the rug, that’s a pretty big detail to forget on C&F

PerspectiveBubbly691

30d

Just wondering.. what were your stats when you got rejected the first round?

Late-Ideal2557

29d

Practicing attorney here. Take the weekend to dust yourself off and call an attorney on Monday who handles C&F appeals.

Take solace in knowing that the state bar association is usually staffed by idiots who have never practiced law a day in their lives.

legalzoom411

29d

1st time hearing of an experience like this and glad I did… Sorry this happened

PhillyPILawyer

29d

This is the bullshit that is our profession. C&F spend time and resources pulling this nonsense. All the while, neither the bar, endless ethics committees do a single thing to protect us from all these non-lawyers encroaching into areas that should exclusively be handled by attorneys.

OP - what you are experiencing is, unfortunately, typical with C&F. Don’t let this last hurdle trump all of the great things you’ve accomplished.

lawblawg

29d

If you can transfer your score to another jurisdiction and apply there, do it. I took the bar last July in MD, but I’d had a nasty spat with a former employer (office drama, nothing actually of significance) and reported as much. MD is still “investigating” eight months later. Meanwhile I got my passing score in October, transferred it into DC and applied there in November, and got admitted in DC in March.

Morbidhanson

28d

Fuck that. Fight it. Nobody remembers every single thing. If you told them about a freaking arrest, why wouldn’t you have told them about turning in an exam 10 minutes late? Obviously it’s because you didn’t remember to.

shellyd79

28d

OP, what state are you in? This almost happened to me because I forgot to report a speeding ticket I had received when I was 17. Did not appear on my driving record and I had totally forgotten about it. Someone went to bat for me and I’m happy to return the favor if I can.

RossTheDivorce4ce

27d

You're so close and you've worked really really hard. Don't give up now

zeldahalfsleeve

26d

Life is hard, I worked hard to get what I wanted, then it got hard, so I gave up but only after making an easily avoidable mistake.

TooYoung825

23d

Please don’t give up if it’s what you really want. NEVER work hard to accomplish something and let the system beat you. “If at first you don’t succeed try and try again.” Criminal Law is intense, after you beat the system you’ll be an outstanding criminal lawyer. Chin up

HumberGrumb

23d

Meanwhile, there is this.

SolutionEither64

21d

Fwiw — I got flagged in VA for a number of arrests. One of them way too late to be brushed off as youthful indiscretion. My app had a pink cover. The rest of the giant stack was blue. I was asked if I knew what that meant and I said prob not good. We talked about it. She admitted me. This may not be useful at all but maybe it means VA is less strict. Fwiw also. — seemed to help that I had a public service job lined up

isla_inchoate

16d

You can absolutely appeal this, don’t give up now. You’ve shown perseverance that most people could never possess. I truly think a hearing with some appropriate mea culpa from you will fix this.

Curious-A--

16d

Don’t give up man. You’ve come this far.

NoRegrets-518

14d

It would be worth it to get that license. I know this from experience on anothertypeof situation. So just write a list of what you have to do, then have a zen attitude. Do something on your list, then put it on the drawer until you next scheduled time to work on it. Money spent on a lawyer is just like a moderately risky investment- risk but high reward.

Continue for five years, but don't bother about it unless you're actively working on it. If you don't invest a lot of emotion in it, its not that big a deal. If you fail, so what? Its only a bit of time and some money.

The rest of your time, just live your life the same as you, would otherwise. Bad things happening usually turn out good in the end. Trust me on this.

Even_Yogurtcloset_55

no way, i don’t know much abt law school but u CANNOT give up after everything you have been through for this. You will regret it so much if u don’t fight back

coulometer

Don’t give up. Law deserves you.