I'm a combat vet. I'm filling out my CCW application for the Bay Area. The application is requiring all of my information concerning my service connected disability that will reveal information that doesn't look good, ie, drug use, hyper vigilance, ptsd.. all of which were past issues I've worked on for the past 20 years.
I'm inclined to not disclose this information. How serious is this?
Exactly!
Simple but elegant... Bravo, fine sir
I just got my CCW in the bay area ca, I was honest in my initial interview with the Sheriff about smoking weed in my teens. I figured it’s best to be honest I also figured if I lied and said I never did, they wouldn’t believe me considering how it’s so common for people to smoke weed especially in CA. I’m not telling you to lie or bend the truth but just stick to your story because I was asked the same questions more than once to see if I changed my story. (This happens after the psych eval as well same questions again to see if you change anything from the test) In my opinion it’s best to just be yourself and be honest like someone else said if you hold something back and it comes out later it will just look worse. Also check out r/CAguns or calguns.net you can get a lot of info there.
I was honest about everything, including using some drugs through my teens/ early twenties. Smoking pot is a federal crime. So you are currently using, it will disqualify you. Honestly really is the best policy,. Your asking to be trusted, so be trustworthy.
I don't need the government's trust to exercise my rights. When the fuck have they ever demonstrated they are trustworthy themselves?
Agreed 100%
I live in Texas where we have Constitutional carry but you can also obtain a license to carry if you wish. I've thought about doing it just so that I don't have to wait on background checks for gun purchases but I'm philosophically opposed to carrying a physical license for a God-given right. Plus I've only ever had 1 background check take more than about half an hour so whatever.
I plan on moving to Texas eventually from NH, which is also a constitutional carry state. Is Texas still only open carry without permit, or is concealed allowed too now?
Yup Constitutional carry open and concealed
Psych eval?!
Shit man, I wish they gave a psych eval to idiots before they voted. Holy hell Batman!
This is where, IMO, these type of applications need time limits. It's like the 4473 form that asks about marijuana use.... If a 52 year old smoked a single joint when they were 16, they have to say they "use" weed ? It asks if you're a "user" and if it's been measured in years as to how long ago it was, that's not a "user".
That's not how it's written and hasn't been for at least 15 years. It asks if you're addicted to or an unlawful user over... Not have you ever, but are you. Like are you using right now. If you stopped yesterday, you can honestly answer no to that question.
The question on the current and previous forms. The one before that just didn't have the statement that even if legal in your state it's not legal federally,
"Yes No
f. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized
for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside"
There are many people, including in this subreddit, that insist that "user" = "used" and say it doesn't matter when you last used. You must answer "yes". Look in this thread alone. It's not an issue for me but strictly speaking, I'd argue that if you used it in the past - doesn't matter if it was 15 years ago or 15 days ago - you're no longer a "user".
There are many people, including in this subreddit, that insist that "user" = "used" and say it doesn't matter when you last used.
That's one take, sure. An equally valid take would be that "Are you" indicates present-tense only. So, barring a lit joint or packed bong in your support hand as you fill out the 4473, you are perfectly in your rights to answer "no."
IANAL, but that's my take on it too.
I agree with you. The way I see it, if they meant "have you ever used" then they would word the question that way in plain language.
I just filled that out for the first time 2 days ago, I didn’t think it’s a confusing question at all, I smoked in high school and havnt for years but answered no right away. I don’t get how people can’t understand basic grammar lol
Doesn't the US v Bruen decision kind of weigh on this as well?
I was a user 20 minutes ago before I left to buy this gun, and I’ll be a user 20 minutes after buying the gun, but currently as I fill this form out, I can honestly say no, I’m not currently at this moment a user.
That’s my interpretation 🤷🏻♂️
😂 It is a grey area and as I said in my earlier post, maybe a time limit is appropriate. "Have you used in the past XX months?".
Remember kids, one puff of a marijuana cigarette will make you permanently insane.
Scarily accurate. I took one puff of pot and instantly thought of homoerotic acts with men. It's truly a much more dangerous substance than people give credit for!
There are many people, including in this subreddit, that insist that "user" = "used" and say it doesn't matter when you last used. You must answer "yes".
Then those people are freaks for sucking their mom's nipples.
See I feel like if I quit about 30 seconds before going in to make a purchase, that is also an honest "no"
The part where I started again after the paperwork went through is neither here nor there
Edit: this is all hypothetical, of course.
... right?
right. they ask "Have you ever"... One question was, "Whats the fastest speed you've ever driven a car and where were you?"
technically speaking weed is still illegal in amsterdam.
They ask how fast you've driven a car?????
Jesus
“Have you ever tried sugar, or PCP?”
I smoke weed every day and I just said I didn't on the form. The ATF has no way to prove that is not true. Even if they could find receipts from me using my debit card to buy weed, that isn't proof I used it.
I don’t even read what I’m checking off. All are “No” except for 11a.
Meh I'm just going to go out on a limb and say a habitual user of Marijuana or alcohol, shouldn't be barred from getting they're ccw and the laws and issuance regulations should reflect.
Yup!!!
Tell them everything they can find out
Thats the thing, They shouldn't be able to access medical records, unless of course down the line if I ever had to discharge my firearm, its possible they could subpoena my records...
In this hypothetical situation of where you “needed” to fire your weapon. Would you rather have to fire your weapon, and have lied on your CCW? Or have to fire the weapon you weren’t carrying because you told the truth on your ccw.
Is it possible that part of the application is a privacy waiver type thing? Like a hipaa release form?
I don't think so, I didn't agree to any release of medical records. This portion is for the psych evaluation portion
I just went thru a CA state psych test for something else, your fine, omit away.
POG vet with no combat trauma, signing off lol.
No
I’m not sure how CA is but there are some states (i.e. NY) where you sign a release.
And there in lies the bad part. If they subpoena your records and in discovery they see you lied, or attempted to obscure the truth, they'll crucify you, and you'll get your CCW denied.
Be completely honest. As an Army Vet....they'll find out.
When the sheriff finds out that you omitted information you’ll get denied, full stop. The background check is very thorough not some surface level check.
If I'm not mistaken, the background check is finished, this portion is the psychological evaluation which is being done by a third party
I mean I’m not a lawyer but if they can’t use a lie detector and you don’t have an arrest record relating to any of the questions then how would they know if you’ve ever used drugs unless you tell them? I guess if they really wanted to they can look through your social media so it’s up to you to decide. I doubt they go that far though. That’s a lot of work to do for every applicant.
Ur ccw permit needs a psych evaluation? Oh didnt read it was California. Ofc it does.
Ig thats not a horrible thing to need for a ccw but i doubt its for the good of the ppl.
Yea my county required too. It was some really odd questions with some being about bestiality.
Yup, they asked if I fuck at work and if I fuck animals
Right? I actually agree this is a good thing (in theory) but… I would never trust a governmental body to implement it correctly. It will inevitably just be used to keep well-rounded, law-abiding citizens from purchasing firearms.
It depends on the county. Luckily mine doesn't and is very 2a friendly.
I took a class from someone in san Mateo and they have psych eval. They said it was super easy, I mean you really need to be a not job to fail it as long as you are consistent and use common sense. I know someone fairly well who got his ccw through SF, he had to actually sit down with someone for the psych interview. He's in a similar position as you are, he said the shrink kept trying to push him to admitting he shouldn't carry but he was consistent and passed the test.
I got a question for you though, if you're saying the background check is finished, what are you worried about not disclosing on the application? If there is a record that the IA could uncover, you should definitely disclose it cause they can find out.
Is it anything greater than a level 2? As long as you haven’t been fingerprinted by the police then you won’t pop up on a level 2
You can be as vague as possible while still being truthful and not volunteering any information that isnt explicitly asked for.
The government employee with a room temperature IQ who is reviewing your application isn't likely to put in the effort to look any deeper into it
Lmfaoooo that username
This application isn't requiring names or contact information, its just asking if I've seen a therapist, how many times and for what...
"Saw the chaplain a few times for moral/spiritual dvice"
It's like talking to a cop. Anything you say will be used against you.
Which is why no one should ever talk to cops.
As a recovering alcoholic I disclosed my abuse and behavior. I was up front with the guy, he just shrugged and asked if it was a problem today, Nope. Life went on. But it's also part of my 12-Step program to disclose and let it go.
Im happy to hear about your recovery
f. Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance? Warning: The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medicinal or recreational purposes in the state where you reside.
g. Have you ever been adjudicated as a mental defective OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution?
Sectiom f asks about current use, not past use. Section g asks about the law determining you mentally incompetent, unable to manage your own affairs or committed to an institution.
I would NOT recommend lying on the form, as doing so is a conviction thay will permanently strip you of your rights.
From what I gather, so long as you don't currently use, are not legally deemed mentally incompetent and you were not committed to an institution...you have nothing to worry about and can check the "no" boxes in full honesty
You remember talking to the people at MEPS?
Just do that again.
How honest has the government been with us?
Lol fill it out however you want. Just accept the consequences, which might be not getting your ccw.
If they're asking, you should answer honestly. Never ever lie.
There's also a difference between "lying" and just not going into excruciating detail.
Yea, I hear you. There's "lying" and there is "not disclosing"... I don't think my medical records are anyone's business.
well, if you live in washington state, they believe they are, and you agree to a waiver by applying for a CPL, so, I hope you aren't here.
I'm in CA
I want to up vote this comment for accuracy, but it feels too much like up voting living in CA
You're telling me, CA has so many restrictions
All adolescents know that the truth is very powerful, very hazardous, and often inimical to our best interests. The truth should only be used sparingly, in tiny increments, with great discretion and appreciation of its power and value. If the authors of these applications sought the truth, they wouldn’t be asking us to fill them out ourselves.
Same here. I’m 70% on the PTSD which is all they’ll give you. Been picked up a couple times after someone rang the crisis line. I’ve since learned how to avoid that and conduct myself so that I will not lose this particular right. I don’t disclose it.
You should never be completely honest on any application ever.
I remember my recruiter stopping me as I flipped a page of the entry paperwork, putting his finger down next to a block of questions and saying "you cannot lie on this paperwork, having said that, if you put down that you have EVER tried ANY illicit substance, you are immediately and permanently disqualified from being a combat medic. DO YOU UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM TELLING YOU?". Guess who understood the assignment and got to be a combat medic.
Anyway your VA disability and treatment information is privileged (falls under HIPAA) so you'd either need to release it to them or they'd need a subpoena to get access to it.
In CA it’s far closer to Shall Always Infringe
I’m not familiar with CA law but if you did lie, and they caught you, could they do anything besides denied your CCW? I don’t think they could pursue legal action.
The government didn’t and will never give a fuck about your safety. It sounds like they got theirs, go and get yours bro
If there is no documentation of any of that the government can get its hands on, don't say shit.
If it’s something they can’t verify through any sort of system, then why mention it. It’s your right regardless of your past.
Keep your mouth shut and delete this post
In my experience (and it probably depends on the state), lying on something like that is perjury. That being said, you don't have to volunteer information they don't ask for.
Read over everything you have signed and will sign multiple times. If you have a lawyer, let them do it. If you didn't sign a HIPPA release, they can get fucked. With it being service related, i have no idea how easy that info would be for then to get. Read that fine print.
California is very favorable to civil rights, ada, and medical discrimination lawsuits. If you get denied over your service related issues, you could always bring a lawsuit against the state and take it as far as you can. If you get luck, it will set a legal president and become case law.
Sounds like they're begging for a lawsuit. I'd contact the big 2A organizations before proceeding
Would you mind elaborating on this?
Second Amendment Foundation (SAF), Gun Owners of America (GOA), Firearms Policy Coalition (FPC), and even the NRA are all on the lookout for plaintiffs to setup cases to strike down gun control laws. They have funding for lawyers, they need people who are strictly impacted by gun control laws in order to establish Standing for a lawsuit.
Demanding these types of records could be a Constitutional violation if there isn't a historical traditional (circa late 1700s) of denying gun rights to disabled veterans. And they might be able to leverage that violation into a broad attack on the permitting process in general, by showing that the State is overreaching (again).
It wouldn't cost anything to reach out to them and see if they are interested. And their lawyers might prefer you to fill out the forms a certain way if they are interested. Lawyers tend to prefer to control the information put out from as early as possible, rather than wishing you had/hadn't said something a certain way on the paperwork
He'd really only have a case if he gets denied first
Yes, but setting up the paperwork to be favorable is something the lawyers may want to be involved with from the start
In my County in upstate NYS, the head of the Pistol Permit section told us to be completely honest with what happened in our pasts, because if you are, they take that as a sign that you have cleaned up your past life and moved on to be a better person. They are GOING to find out anyway, so if you’re honest about your past, they take it well. It’s always worked for me.
You are over thinking this, answer the questions in short. Let them ask follow up questions and or do their own due diligence.
Allegedly I have a checkered past and did things that would disqualify me if true to my self now but are not me now.
My therapist reported to my life insurance that I use marijauana, I said “I tried edibles and it helped twice but was to much work, risk, paranoia for me to use to sleep”
As an ex addict who was diagnosed SMI(severely mentally ill) I am able to purchase guns legally background check and all. It just takes some time the first couple times. I’m sure when getting a CCW they do a thorough background check(same as when purchasing a firearm) so they will see the information. As long as you are currently healthy happy and sober you have nothing to worry about.
They're looking for a criminal record primarily and it happens during the background check and interview.
A friend of mine was 65 when he finally applied for his ccw and he thought that his arrest record from 40 years ago didn't exist as he forgot about it since he didn't think it was a big deal for petty fights, and multiple times he was asked if he was sure there was nothing, to which he said "nope, nothing".
He was denied because of several arrests from 40 years in the past, but he would have gotten it if he admitted to them, as they ARE long enough ago that the police chief was willing to consider him safe until he lied to his face. I know because I'm also friends with the police chief of his town
They weren't looking for why the fights happened (he started them and was the aggressor). If you can keep a story straight then they can only fact check you about your mental health, really.
Damn. I was worried about the same thing in CO, but the background check is way less invasive. What’s the fastest you’ve ever gone in a car??
I went to treatment for ptsd and aud voluntarily which is the key word, at least here. Not sure if they have a packet of info that came with the form, but ours is pretty clear that they’re concerned about involuntary things like having to be picked up by the cops or dragged into rehab by family. Neither of which happened to me… and because it was voluntary I keep 100% of my rights and it is not on any legal records.
BUT you’re in an area that’s a lot more strict about things for law abiding Americans and easier on criminals, but we’re heading that direction too. God, I hope this place doesn’t get as crazy as CA about guns.
Just ask yourself: “ How do I feel about spending time in Federal prison?”
If the answer is none… be honest on the form.
Definitely disclose. Lying and them finding out later is bad news. Lying and them not finding out, But you have to use your ccw and go to court, you just gave a big ol red flag to the DA. More than likely they will not deny you your ccp because you've had issues in the past. But they will deny you for lying.
Well, for one thing is California and they’re trying to find any excuse to not let you have one. But also, I don’t know what sort of information they have access to. They do an in-depth background check into you in if you served in the military and you went to a military doctor they’re gonna be able to see that you had PTSD anyways so being truthful might actually be better.
You should ALWAYS be truthful. They WILL find out and if they don’t it’s not a good thing. If it doesn’t work out, it doesn’t but you will have told the truth.
You never did anything that wasn’t lawful in the eyes of the feds wink wink
ie, drug use, hyper vigilance, ptsd
Hmm? What drug use? What hyper vigilance? What ptsd? Never met ‘er.
Nice try ;)
The fact that you have to do all this shit in California for a right is ridiculous. Again, the above mentioned issues don’t need to exist on your application.
While interviewing for a job with the DoD I filled out a form and was honest about everything. The woman read through the form and said, “is any of this on record?” “No,” I replied… she gave me another form and said, “Fill it out again.” I got her point.
She hooked you up. My concern is information being “on record” that can easily be pulled up compared to sealed medical records that could be pulled by the courts if something went down.
Personally I’d show my cards for anything find-able. If I didn’t have a wife and kid maybe I’d feel otherwise…
Leave California. This is the only answer.
Dont say a damn thing. It's shitty enough they hardly issue them out there. I hope you get it so you can feel safe. I hate going back because I cant carry mine with me legally
If they find out he lied, he'll get denied.
Don't say shit about fuck