You'd think he has done more than enough to ascend so it's just kind of confusing that he either has chosen not to or hasn't been granted the right.
To a degree yes.
The Chaos Gods like to have 'chosen' pawns to do their shit in the 'real universe' and Daemon Princes kinda.... can't.
The 4 Daemon Primarchs of their gods were never their God's chosen Champions. They were *trophies and playing pieces*
Slaanesh chose Lucius
Nurgle chose Typhon (Who enjoys rubbing that in his Fathers face)
Khorne chose Kharn
and Tzeentch chose Ahriman (Though he may have recently 'lost' him)
Abaddon is the 'chosen' champion of the Four. They don't *want* him to ascend to a Daemon Prince coz that'd remove him from the game, and make him into a new playing piece, or worse, a new player.
What happened to Ahriman? Or where can I read it please?
He's somehow 'severed' himself from Tzeentch iirc.
Means Tzeentch can no longer 'control's destiny (Tzeentch loved getting Ahriman within fingers reach of his goal and yanking it away)
I'm not sure in what book or books it occurs in
I believe it was Magnus that did it.
The Ahriman series have the Changeling give the order to Magnus to have Ahriman made into Void.
Whatever his body looks like there is a Void that screams where his head is according Iskandar Khayon.
Khayon is a Psyker so he would see the Warp Aspect of Ahriman while Mortals would see the Physical Aspect which looks normal.
Ahriman was gifted with freedom through the ultimate change into a screaming Void in the Warp. He now embodies the concept of Nothingness.
Goals ending in Vain, Hollow Victories, Hungering Desire, Vanity over appearance... He embodies the concept of Nothingness now which means that the echoes of Nothingness will go to him not Slaanesh! Tzeentch's great triumph over the Dark Prince.
The moment a great triumph of the Imperium falls into Nothingness all the power from that event will go to Ahriman. The moment Sigvald decides to grace the Imperium with his presence the power from his preening will go to Ahriman leaving Slaanesh with Sigvald's debauchery to Slaanesh's chagrin.
Magnus did nothing.
Wrong?
I read the entire Ahriman series, and it didn't happen there. When do you think this happened? Modern 40k?
If its Khayon who described him that way would it be the Black Legion series? From what i remember Khayon narrated those books.
I still haven't read those, just started the audiobook but got pulled away with some other series.
Thank you for the reply. I really need to get caught up on the lore.
Plus...as a marine.. and mortal. He not bound by the much more restricted rules on demaon Princes and greater demaons etc.
He is very powerful, without the rule limits and downsides that the demaon Prince, greater and primarchs have to.play by.
He also would have to give up to be under God's direct control.
Right now he has powerful boons bit also more agency than the deamon variants.
That's simply not true. Each God has tempted him to choose them, or to give him the same power as Horus to claim him altogether. But he has promised himself that he will always be the one in control, never the one to be controlled. He accepts their gifts, but will never give of himself the thing that would allow them to own him altogether, as daemonhood does.
But that's the entire point of his character, that's why Abaddon is interesting in the Heresy imo. His entire character is a giant contradiction, he wants so badly to do exactly what the chaos gods want without doing what the chaos gods want. He may not be under direct control of them, just like Horus wasn't. But to say he isn't under the spell of chaos undivided just because he himself said he wasn't is silly.
Like if you didn't give a shit about what the chaos gods wanted you wouldn't, for example, use them to tempt someone like Talos to join you. Accepting their gifts but not aligning to them is what the gods want, they want pawns as powerful as Horus and Abaddon that think they have ultimate control because if they feel they don't have that, they give up their gifts and what the gods don't want to happen happens, ala Horus fight with the Emperor being fucked up by Loken, the one thing that could shake Horus.
Anyone who fights for Chaos is ultimately doomed, there is no eternal escape from its clutches. He doesn't want what the Gods want, he simply wants his vengeance. He has no desire to see Mankind extinguished, merely conquered.
Horus absolutely was under their direct control, evident in the End and the Death Vol 3 in his fight with the Emperor, as Horus learns at the very end of the fight.
You can tell when someone hasn't read the Black Legion trilogy because anyone who does, who reads Ezekyle's story knows his chief concern has always about maintaining control and remaining himself, which he has successfully done for 10,000 years. It's not because he was gifted by the gods that he commands the 9 Traitor Legions, but by his sheer skill alone.
bro re read the beginning of what you just said, and how that agrees with me saying that's ultimately how the chaos gods are controlling him lol. That's what they did with Horus, he wasn't under their direct control, he was poisoned by their power and influence to do their bidding and willingly gave that up when he was convinced to, that's the entire tragedy of the whole thing because they were all like "oh fuck he just did that" and tried to quickly assume direct control before the Emperor could finish him. Yeah sure Abaddon might be mega skilled and he might be the greatest big bad guy mankind had seen, but that at the end of the day is what chaos demands of him.
The tricky thing about the chaos gods is they use someones willpower to avoid them as a tool, sometimes subtly sometimes overtly, but at the end of the day its all their scheming to get certain things like Abaddon in power to fuel their schemes. You see that happening with the Iron Warriors and Perty until he finally gives into it.
That said, you're right I haven't read those and most of my knowledge of Abaddon specifically comes via the Heresy books, the Night Lords trilogy and osmosis just from being a fan for years (I started the recent Fall of Cadia as well but haven't made much progress), thanks for the recommendation cuz I wasn't aware of the Black Legion books :)
Abaddon - Nuh uh I'm not doing what Chaos wants, I'm doing what I want. I'm like the only one willing to organise the armies of Chaos, and it's to serve MY goals of conquering the enemy of Chaos, the Imperium. Just like I always wanted!
Literally anyone who knew this dude - Wait, when did you even start wanting to conquer the Imperium!? Was it when dad and the entire legion turned to Chaos? You're doing exactly what Chaos wants, while all juiced up on Chaos power, and you have a Chaos logo on your crotch.
Abaddon - Golly gosh, that is a big coincidence. But no I really came to my conclusions independently. I'm not weak, refuse to bow, all that, and other such Chaosy stuff.
I think Abaddon is just a loyalist that hasn't found the right moment to slip out yet, there's been a lot of eyes on him.
I know you haven't read them. Because had you, you'd not be of this opinion.
I'm no Chaos fan boi, I'm team golden banana boyz and gurlz ftw, and even I can admit that Abaddon is an exception. He's in control. Horus was not, at any point, in control post Davin. Horus was entirely a puppet.
The whole modern schtick of Abaddon since his novels and the Siege series, is that unlike his father, Abaddon remains in total control of what he's doing. He uses Chaos, not the other way around. It's what sets him apart from literally every other Traitor in the setting, and what thusly, makes him so dangerous. Would that it were he be under the sway of Chaos, it would be better for us all. But alas, he is not, and thus are we doomed.
Horus was mostly controlled but he defied the gods a few times during the final fight.
The Gods wanted E dead. Horus wanted to spare him. Even though he was talking about it as punishment It leans pretty heavily that he didn’t want to kill his father. The gods were not happy.
He also was able to give up the power. He regretted it but he made the choice to defy them to prove he was not their slave.
And yet he specifically remarked, when wanting the power back after he saw the trap, that the Gods were not so readily willing to give it back and in that moment realized too late, that he had been their slave and puppet all along.
Right. I’m not saying he wasn’t mostly a slave but he was still able to make decisions that were his own and ran against what the old 4 wanted. Sparing the Emperor in any capacity had the raging out.
CONTROL. NOT CONTROLLED.
Dude you argue with has clearly not read “black legion”. The entire beginning chapter has a portion about how the chaos gods desperately want abaddon but can’t have him, and so they will spitefully work against his ultimate victory. Like this isn’t conjecture lol. Other dude has no idea
Yes. You are right
Yes, exactly. He’s more useful to the Gods in his current form. He basically fulfills their wishes in the Materium, while Demon Princes cannot, at least nowhere near to the same degree. I think Abaddon would choose this way as well. He is basically juiced up by Chaos as much as is humanly possible or necessary, while remaining in control of himself.
This yes, but Typhon is actively seeking Daemonhood so Nurgle is gonna have to make a clear decision at some point and I can’t imagine Typhon will be happy if it’s a no
Other way around. The daemon primarchs are the ones playing the great game, they have seniority over their heralds. The heralds function outside of it since they aren't granted daemonhood.
Ahriman is still a slave to Tzeentch, thinking he can cure his legion brings Tzeentch amusement.
Kharn does not listen to Angron and Angron actively wants him dead at times for 'usurping' his role as Khornes Champion.
Magnus and Ahriman didn't get along for 10k years qnd only recently started to again once Ahriman got 'released' from Tzeentch.
Lucius does not listen to Fulgrim at all and just goes around doing his own thing. Hell his Champion status could even be contested by Fabius.
And Typhus and Mortarion not only hate eachother, but Typhus outright fights Mortarion for control if his Legion and is considered by many to be the true master of the Death Guard. (Even The Khan threw this in Mortarions face during the Siege)
The Heralds do their own things in real space because the daemon primarchs are too busy with the great game. But the one thing that unifies these fragmented traitor legions are their primarchs.
That.... is entirely untrue.
The World Eaters are super fragmented, with the two largest being under Kharn and Angron. Hell most the time Angron doesn't have any WE with him at all but a bunch of Daemons.
The Thousand Sons are weird coz there's so few 'sentient' TS. Many of them follow Ahriman (Blue), many follow Magnus (Red). And many went to other people.
The Emperors Children are so fragmented they basically don't have many big Warbands.
And the Death Guard are a Legion but split mostly in half
When the daemon primarchs call, their legions will answer. Kharne answered Angrons call. The Heralds have their own warbands but they don't have more influence then their respective primarchs.
When Fulgrim gets a 40k model and the EC finally get a model range, they will rally around their primarch in real space until Fulgrim departs again to play the great game.
And a Black Legion Thousand Son Sorceror forced Magnus to Kneel before Abaddon
What happens when a god calls a Daemon Primarch to war is different to how they handle every other day of the year.
The Black Legion is the principal traitor legion due to the fact that it isn't subject to infighting and focuses its collective efforts in real space. But this is also a strawman arguement.
The god specific heralds don't unite their respective legions in real space. They only command their respective warbands. It isn't until their daemon primarchs deploy to real space that we see their unity.
Yeah but they're still very much pieces in their gods game. They have a bit more free will obviously but its made very clear they're trophies and lost a lot of their souls and will
I've always laughed when people talk about Bile as if he is free of Slaanesh cause like his central obsession is the same as Lucius and Fulgrim, perfection.
He thinks he has at least...Chaos is like oh noooo you're totally doing it you're totally rejecting ussss and staying independent but also thanks for doing what we want
I keep seeing people say this, where does it say abaddon is a pawn of the gods? Every bit of GW lore has told us that he has his free will, and is actually the one using the gods because hes making them fight for him (which IS whats happening).
But then I keep seeing people go “Oh but hes a unwiling pawn! stupid abaddon!”
as if to dismiss his character and prove a point or something. Is it wrong to have a powerful chaos character that is actually smart about the usage of chaos, and found a “loophole” of sorts?
I am genuinely interested if this is something i missed though, if theres any excerpts anyone has where the lore genuinely states that abaddon is a pawn, and it isnt some imperium character saying so.
The fact that everyone who believes he’s mastered Chaos fails.
what? again this still feels like headcanon, other people have tried, but other people arent Abaddon, Warmaster of Chaos, the literal MAIN villain of the setting.
I think he has a few more qualifications than random marines/sorcerers you see in stories try to master chaos.
And even then he isnt “mastering” chaos, he just recognizes that none of the gods will stop giving him power because it means the other gods will just feed him more, thus meaning those gods will become more empowered from abaddons deeds.
Its an endless cycle that the chaos gods cant escape, and Abaddon can now do what he wishes, which is to destroy the imperium, without any outside tampering from the gods.
100%. Abaddon is playing the most dangerous game. To ascend is to lose his purpose, so he doesn’t. But he also knows that he’s basically going to get juiced to hell by all the gods, so needs to not do too good—since he will turn into Horus, who had basically lost his marbles—and also do well enough that the gods don’t withdraw their favor.
That Abaddon has managed this game for 10k years is to his credit. But it’s a constantly played game with deadly consequences.
He's the 40k equivalent of the guy who doesn't want to do his job too well because he doesn't want more responsibilities, but also does just well enough to still get a raise every review
It's written into the essence of the setting.
Of course he is a pawn, he thinks he is going to tear the false emperor off the golden throne and take his place as the true ruler of humanity.
What actually will happen is he will destroy the divide between realspace at the warp and allow chaos to reign.
I keep seeing people say this, where does it say abaddon is a pawn of the gods? Every bit of GW lore has told us that he has his free will, and is actually the one using the gods because hes making them fight for him (which IS whats happening).
It's more that without the support from the Gods, Abaddon's support for his armies and raids would be falling apart due to the lack of the "operational glue" that makes it tick.
Abaddon's main motivation and drive is the continuation of the main grievance from the old heresy which is being sidelined and having mere humans order around space marines still exists but it still needs the demonic glue to keep everything ducted taped together like the Orks need the WAAAAAGH! field.
That being said, his deals with Vashtorr has opened up a lot of story drama as Vashtorr is less.. fickle than the Gods.
Thank You! The lore is 100% on Abaddon's side here. From the End and the Death to old Codex lore to new Codex lore to The Fall of Cadia.
Abaddon is simply right and the haters are wrong. They haven't a scrap of source material but will simply believe it anyway.
Why though? Is it because he cares more about destroying the Imperium than he cares about enacting the will of the Chaos Gods?
He doesn't care about the Chaos Gods at all. He doesn't want to become a puppet like Horus, he wants to maintain control of his own destiny.
Control, not controlled
Ha!
Abaddon wants to destroy the Imperium, and he knows that by becoming a Daemon prince, he's giving in to their influence. Horus by the end was just a slave of chaos, a tool the gods puppeted around. Abaddon wants to do things on his own terms, a Daemon prince would be the absolute last thing he'd ever want to be since he'd be an immortal slave of the gods at that point.
Plus abbadon witnessed what giving in fully to chaos does to the overall plan. Chaos itself cannot fully enact its will because if it did I believe it’d destroy itself so it basically gets to the cusp then implodes on itself. Siege of Terra the traitors barely holding on to the original plan only made it so far because of independent primarchs. Albeit a lot of help from chaos but it wouldn’t have gotten as far without the balance of “sober” minds.
Partially due to the little bit we get of Horuss time in his warp sleep, you’ll see any number of possibilities. So I feel it kinda makes you drunk in a way to where you can’t see what your original intention was and steers you to literal chaos.
I’m beginning to feel like chaos needs the imperium just as badly as it would see it destroyed. It’s just in chaos’s nature to want to destroy or at the very least control it. Which is why it’s bound to the warp and unable to fully breach into the galaxy. Almost as if chaos fully breaks through it’ll just reset the galaxy
Almost as if chaos fully breaks through it’ll just reset the galaxy
That was The Cabal's plan, was it not?
Yea but even then there’s no guarantee chaos will even be able to fully do it on its own because it would essentially be killing itself. I think it needs a catalyst to push it over the edge.
Even then there’s no telling it would actually reset and we’d just have a chaos infested galaxy that would eventually burn itself out but not at great Cost.
Like a dog chasing a car?
A big thing with Abbadon is that he has goals and views everything as a weapon to be wielded and mastered in pursuit of those goals.
Some people will talk about how he only thinks he's independent, but is actually being manipulated by Chaos, but that isn't definitively true. It's meant to be ambiguous. Is he actually a smarter Horus, or is he just as deluded in his own way?
Pretty much. He's a true, ride or die, anti-Imperialist. One of the few alive to have seen the Great Crusads. But this also means he watched Horus' fall from grace and submission to Chaos. By the end, he watched Horus turn into nothing more than a quivering, Resident Evil style monster, completely given over to the will of Chaos.
Abandon simply decided he didn't need God to destroy the Imperium. He saw what happens when you prey to those gods.
Chaos gets what they want, and Abaddon gets what he wants, either way. Why rock the boat?
because his vindicta is too strong to submit himself fully to the four
Yes.
The gods thirst for his allegiance. They whisper deals and temptations to him constantly, desperately trying to pull him towards one or the other of them, and he listens not. He hates the gods.
TBH it's why he's so powerful. The Gods of Chaos don't use Abbadon, Abbadon uses the gods. Nobody else has or does or can.
Abaddon thinks that's the case, anyway. But for someone who is using them rather than being used, they're sure getting a lot more out of the deal than he is.
Why do people say he thinks thats the case? Has lore in codexes or books ever said otherwise? Because as it stands every piece of lore on Abaddon clearly just states he is making them fight for him, thats kinda the whole point of his character. His intelligent usage of chaos is what makes him the character he is. Its how hes in power of the strongest chaos legion.
Everyone keeps saying he is the one actually being used, but i havent actually seen anything stating this in lore other than peoples headcanons.
Because for someone who is using them rather than being used, they're sure getting a lot more out of the deal than he is.
i mean a solid 70/30 deal isn't too bad, especially when you're dealing with literal gods and your name is not the emperor of mankind
Abaddon has gotten a large amount from this though? He is the most powerful non primarch marine in the galaxy, and using his sword he definitely reaches a primarch in strength.
Abaddon has gained the contracts of countless daemons to assault the imperium with, and untold power to destroy his enemies.
Meanwhile the gods fight for his favour trying to keep him wholly to themselves. Yes the gods get things from this deal but Abaddon doesnt care. He has free will to do whatever he wants and the gods cant do anything about it.
Because if he displeases a god, and they stop feeding him their power, then he simply will gain power from the other gods, and those gods in turn will grow more powerful from his and his legions actions.
So none of the gods can take their power from him, meanwhile abaddon can do whatever he wants.
Chaos by its very definition is uncontrollable, while i see your point of view we must always go back to the fact that Chaos can't be controlled so either he's been riding a wave of uncertainty for 10k years or he's actually being manipulated to believe he's in control of his own destiny
I don't like making Abbie a patsy for the ruinous Gods, I give him the respect that he fights the manipulation of the Gods but truthfully i know deep down they pull the strings
I think the end and the death goes into his state of mind a bit. He never really loved chaos, he loved Horus and as an extension hates the imperium. You should read it, Not gonna spoil it for you.
He was pretty mortified to see what the Chaos Gods did to his genesire. In the Siege of Terra novels this gets brought up pretty specifically.
Question, if he isn't a chaos marine. How is he still alive all this time? Because he lives in the eye of terror? i have only read the Horus Heresy and am extremely happy he isn't a demon prince since he always hated the chaos gods
He is a chaos marine, he just doesn't belong to any one god, he is still heavily blessed by all four of them, and yes you are correct time in the eye of terra is wonky af.
I think it must be the Eye of Terror, yeah. Time is weird in there.
Space Marines live for ages, potentially forever, for one, and yes, the time-warping effect of the various warp storms that Chaotic forces hide in is a big reason why there's so many heresy-era Traitors kicking around.
Becoming a daemon prince inherently comes with losing your free will in one way or another. Abbadon values his free will over the potential power it would give.
Be'lakor has challenged the Gods before so surely someone with a strong enough will and sense of self could become a Daemon Prince and still retain all of their free will
Still a slave but with another type of leash
The best slave is the one who thinks he's free.
In addition to what others have said, Be’lakor was a special case as he was the first ever daemon prince and the gods made his leash far too loose. Undoubtedly, any deal Abaddon could make for ascension would be much more restrictive.
Issue is with Be'lakor is he doesn't have free will. Hie challenge to the Gods was an orchestrated ploy. That is the funny part is he thinks he has free will when in the end he is a puppet and if he didn't the Gods would have destroyed him by now for being a pest.
Canon is a bit confused about this, I think. There is a source that does say that Be'lakor doesn't actually have free will, but canon is also pretty unequivocal that Be'lakor was a mistake on the part of the Gods, that he tricked the Gods, was hard to control and that's why they don't like to create daemon princes of chaos undivided.
Be'lakor is able to challenge the Gods because the Gods give him enough independence to do so, followed swiftly by turning that independence into enough rope to hang himself with. They think its funny, and so they allow it. It doesnt mean he has free will though, quite the opposite.
The Gods find amusement in Be'lakor's delusion that he is able to determine his own fate. If any of the Gods snapped their fingers and ordered Be'lakor to jump, he'd have no choice but to ask 'How high?' He's still a slave, just one with an immense ego and even more immense case of self-deception.
Belakor advances their cause, directly or indirectly, and was the first one to actually become a Daemon Prince of Undivided. He has all the bugs they ironed out for 2.0 like “Free Will”.
Bro really said they had to update the "End User License Agreement" and "Terms of Service"
Gods have complete control over their daemons. You have more agency as Undivided, but they can still do as they please with you if they decide on something.
The thing with Undivided Princes is there are 4 votes at the table and the gods never agree so you get... pretty much free reign
Also, when your a being of the warp it is hard to launch nalck crusades. He would need the warp to enter the material plane.
Being a mortal champion means he can be anywhere he wants without the need for the warp.
Nope.
Bel is also the very first daemon prince. They may have been still working out the kinks lol
I'd imagine the problem is you're stuck in the warp as a daemon prince and require immense effort to be brought out of it.
There is a reason they don’t really do undivided daemon princes anymore. Be’lakor was and is a problem for the chaos gods.
All daemon princes are slaves, the difference is that Be'Lakor can see his leash.
Be'lakor is a special case though.
He's so powerful and uncontrollable that the Pantheon vowed to never make another being like him again.
Because he cannot enter real space whenever he wants if he became a Demon Prince.
Isn't the big deal with Demon Princes that because they were originally mortal they have greater freedom of movement in the Materium than with a normal Greater Demon?
Nurgle expend a lot of his power extending his influence in Ghoul Stars to allow for the invasion of Ultramar. Once again, Abbadon could just hop on Vengeful Spirit and get into real space without any extra work.
Yes, I'm aware that mortals have zero problem with going into the Materium, but I never really went hard into Deamon Prince lore/novels containing it and was under the impression that one of the reasons they're among the most favored servants of their chosen God is that they have an easier time crossing over than demons of equivalent power.
Greater yes, but they are still inherently creatures of the warp now.
Well, Magnus can.
Ehhh, not rlly? If ur in the Eye of Terror and come out as a Daemon Prince, then ur in Realspace
Not to mention you can have your cultists summon you from across the galaxy
Demon require a lot of work to stay in real space. The higher level the demon, the more sacrifice and summoning. If Abaddon wants to get into real space next Tuesday, he hop on The Vengeful Spirit and fly in. Magnus will need to have his cultists in real space perform sacrifice and ritual to summon him.
Daemon Princes are still perfectly capable of boarding a ship and using its warp drives to enter realspace... this has been shown in lore.
And subsequently they get sucked back into the warp once they hit true realspace, because none of the rituals or rites have been done to sufficiently weaken the barrier with the warp in order for them to be able to stay.
Getting 'out' of the warp and into realspace isn't necessarily the tough part, the problem is staying there. Daemons are fundamentally incompatible with the material universe so it takes a lot of work to keep them there.
He doesn't want to be a daemon prince.
He uses chaos to further his aims. He has no desire to become a slave to chaos.
this is a core misunderstanding of Abaddon as a character.
Abaddon does not wish to be a slave to Chaos. In a way, he hates the Chaos Gods. He hates them for how they destroyed Horus, and how Horus became their puppet.
He uses Chaos as a tool to see the fall of the Imperium of Mankind so that he may put his transhuman Empire into power.
Additionally being a Daemon Prince means it's going to be a lot harder to do anything in Real Space/the Materium without warp storms and etc.
"Control, not controlled."
Both Abaddon and Ahriman are quite similar in this way in the sense that they are constantly trying to use rather than work for chaos. Both of them also are in a lot of denial about how corrupted by chaos they are and how often Chaos gets the leg up on them.
Exactly, they're lying to themselves.
There's a nice line in the Black Legion books where the narrator mentions that Ahriman likes to claim that he's not corrupted by chaos... except that he conveniently ignores the fact that beneath his helmet, there's nothing but a blue burning skull.
All these guys are long gone by this point, and they're living in denial if they think they're independent.
The chaos gods never give their gifts without getting something in return.
Abaddon wants to destroy the Imperium. He retains some suspicion against the Chaos Gods, especially because they failed Horus. Did they fail because they were weaker than the Emperor, or is it because the destruction of the Imperium isn't actually their end goal?
Since becoming a Demon Prince means losing ones Free Will to some extent, Abaddon refuses to be a Demon Prince on the off chance that his agenda and that of the Chaos Gods are not one and the same.
Abaddon watched Chaos consume Horus. He watched his father and the War he started disappear into Pacts and Rituals and magics. As much as he loved him, he thought he was a fool for letting himself be consumed by Chaos and swore it would never happen to himself. Ever the pragmatist though, he knows that he'll never win without that same power.
Once you become a Daemon Prince, that's it. You're done. You will forever just be another piece in the great game. The Daemon Primarchs of the Old Four are deluding themselves that they are independent and despite what that line in Godblight might imply, there has never been someone who has returned to Normal Form. You're forever just another piece on the table (Ha!).
Abaddon doesn't want that. He hates Chaos. He hates the Gods who turned his Father into a sockpuppet. He despises them. He wants to use their power but he also wants them at arm's length. He remains himself and to become a Daemon would be to lose himself utterly.
Control, not Controlled.
Precisely!
The Chaos Gods are selfish and capricious. There's nothing fair or consistent about them, hence the name 'Chaos Gods'. Everything is done according to their personal whims and their needs in The Great Game, and apparently they need Abaddon on the ground in real-space, dealing the Imperium its worst defeats since the Heresy.
Cus he has too much swag. He would lose what made him the warmaster. Horus was a great leader and planner until he was possessed then he become far less than he was . Abby saw this and was like nah I don’t want that
Here's the thing. I think he is, but he's in denial. Abaddon thinks that he can fool Chaos into supporting him and stay uncorrupted. We all know that can't be true. As Jaghatai Khan has indicated, the warp corrupts. You have to just sip from that cup and put it away.
Abaddon is a Daemon Prince, IMO.
Abaddon is a narcissist. By becoming a Demon Prince, he sees himself as becoming slaved to their wills. He isn’t wrong.
But he’s delusional to think he isn’t already.
He truly thinks he’s going to get one over on the Chaos Gods. They all do, at first.
Ask Be’lakor how that tends to go.
The way I read it is that Be'lakor is the what if, what awaits Abaddon if he loses control. He's walking a razorblade, all four gods essentially counterbalance each other giving him free will. If he hesitates for a second or wavers that's it he's done, either he's a pawn to all of them or a pawn to one of them.
The implication being he's managed to play the 4 against each other for 10,000 years but they know eventually he will hesitate and in that moment they will have him. To them time is irrelevant. The despair he will feel after "winning" against them for 10,000 years when the moment of weakness comes is much more their style.
They also just don't make Undivided Princes (anymore), he'd have to pick one and why have one when you can have 4?
Just finished book 2 of the Siege. Unless his motives have changed, he states he doesn’t really give a shit about the pantheon and just wants to see the Emperor/Imperium in ruins and in flames
He is what I considered “in a situationship”
Pretty much a relationship without the label. Ultimately too pussy to admit the reality or too scared to assume the responsibilities
Abbadon has seen Horus' fate and doesn't wish to repeat it. He has been very careful with taking the gifts from the gods, constantly trying to keep himself free. Of course the gods propably still have him firmly in their grip, that's just how Chaos works, but he would have far less personal agenda if he had become a daemon prince.
I honestly think the chaos gods want this too (him having more autonomy in real space) but by their nature they can’t help but try and sway him one way or another.
It's also the matter of Daemon princes being a thing of the warp. It limits their ability to act in realspace. Abbadon leads the chaos forces in part because he doesn't need to be summoned into realspace, he just go and do as he pleases
Because he doesn't want to be one.
I think you answered your own question
Both he and the gods don't want to have him ascend. He hates chaos and believes he's using chaos instead of the other way around.
For the gods, they have a useful pawn that can enter real space whenever he wants. Being a daemon means it's harder to enter and stay in the materium.
Belakor is the only true deamon prince of chaos undivided in every warhammer setting, in the sense that he is the only one who was ever given power by all 4 gods. Lorgar and Perturabo are outright stated to have obtained ascension through "other means", presumably through their own knowledge of the warp and ability to manipulate its power to their own ends.
The gods only came together give give a mortal their shared power the once, and Belakor was deemed a failure do to his inherent free will and desire to not be used as a puppet, something only possible because he had no single god controlling him.
Chaos champions such as Horus, Abaddon, and Archaon all work on borrowed power rather than anything outright given to them.
Because if he does, then the Black Legion's successes would be victories for the chaos gods and it would be their army. He wants it to be a human victory and his army.
Can you even consciously decide against ascending?
I mean I can’t decide to not become it-what-can’t-be-named so why would this be any different?
With all the lore available I cannot fathom how anyone can swallow Abaddon's delusions of independence.
The one decision Abby has made correctly.
Because he thinks it's icky
He is a puppet, but the gods go to lengths to ensure this puppet doesn't see the strings. Besides, he can be present and effective in realspace in a way the primarchs can't
Isn’t this Be’lakors story?
Be'lakor is essentially the what if, he shows what would happen to Abbie if he did become a daemon prince. He becomes a piece in the great game.
Everyone says that he doesn't want to and they are right but besides him not wanting too, neither the chaos gods wants to, they all want Abaddon for themselves and after Belakor, they know better than to make another daemon prince of chaos undivided (which leaves Lorgar and Perturabo in a weird spot)
But Lorgar makes the most sense because all he wants to do is spread the will of the Chaos Gods (even though he told everyone to fuck off to do some eternal meditative ✨self-care✨)
I mean that should once again show the chaos gods that making undivided princes is a poor idea
Because Dear Abby is a special precious edgelord who refuses to submit that far to Chaos.... while leading big ol' Chaos forces that shred the boundaries between Warp and Realspace.
But since Abaddon sees himself as using Chaos rather than the other way around, going daemon prince is a step too far.
I find it simultaneously stupid and delightful. It's nice to see that the Imperium doesn't have a monopoly on consequence-blind tunnel vision.
Its like being sold a car. Before you buy it you get all these sweet deals and guarentees, even snacks and drinks! Once you buy it they dont care and start making demands of the product you now use.
Same thing with chaos, super enticing but once you become a demon, that is it. Now you are permanently a object that the gods cant care about anymore.
“Control. Not controlled.”
He doesn't wanna
Control, not controlled
He's chosen not to. Also, for Chaos having a (relatively) sane servant who always has access to the mortal world is useful.
I believe it's both that he doesn't want to, and the Gods wouldn't want to give him that much power to their enemy who is already stronger than most Primarchs.
Because he don't want to. .
He saw Horus turn from the best leader of the Imperium in a puppet.
He want to choose his own path.
But he will fail in the end. There is no true independence for those who align themselves with Chaos.
He chooses not to because he knows that he'd then be a true slave of Chaos.
Belakor was the last one since he caused such a MASSIVE issue because he wasn’t beholden to any of the gods
He saw what happened to Horus and how Horus was not truly in control any more and said screw that.
In 40K there is tons of use in being “mortal” and enjoying some benefits from the big 4. For one, Daemon Princes can be banished just by using their real name. The Grey Knights do it all the time.
Daemon prince: Foolish grey Knight i have bested you this time!
Grey knight: pffft whatever Steve!
Steve: Wait, what?! (Sucked back into warp)
he's the Horus parallel of the contemporary 40k setting. Horus was never a demon prince like half the traitor primarchs were by the siege and all the survivors would be eventually, yet he's still buffed by them heavily. Psykers near him can see the influence of chaos . One of the big reasons chaos can't convert every high performer into a daemon is that their versatility goes down, not the least of which is they become incurably insane. Also, daemons can't really lead long-term ventures into the materium without very heavy lifting by cultists and other mortals. Abaddon has to have the highest level control over black legion's realspace and warp assets, which he can't do if he's out of comission most of the time. The daemon primarchs are well known for not doing very much in 10k years.
He just doesn't want to be.
He doesn’t and to ascend because he doesn’t want to actually serve chaos
The Chaos gods don’t want to ascend him because then it’s harder for him to work in the material universe
He's more useful on the ground and doesn't want to be one.
a puppet of the gods all the same,
He denies daemonhood.
He's actively refused to become a Daemon Prince because he wants to be able to move and act freely outside of the Eye of Terror.
Abaddon kind of hate chaos for what it is, he always prefer to led a non-chaotic legion ..so he was just using chaos to get what he want and also being one of the few that actually use chaos without being consume by it.
He wouldn't be nearly half as amusing to them if he Ascended.
Because he doesn't want to be.
Cause hes a BITCH, huron blackheart should be leading csm
Abaddon hopes to learn from his father mistakes and not succumb to Chaos as he saw what Chaos done to Horus.
But that's old lore...
But even in the new lore, Horus was still a puppet of Chaos, the murder of Sanguinius and Ollanius Persson taught as that much...
Being a wish.com Horus means he needs to get in and out of the warp whenever he feels like it. Becoming a demon prince would require cultists to know he exists in the first place, summoning him and once he appears racing against the clock to accomplish his objectives before he fades back into the warp.
Power wise it would be a pretty hefty boost for him but otherwise its more of a hindrance then a benefit.
I think you have to understand what ascension means.
The chaos gods are slaves to their nature. The fundamental issue when you take in enough of your chosen patron’s warp power and ascend is that you become a slave to that same nature (see Urkanthos at the moment of his apotheosis, for example).
Abbadon refuses that level of power because it inherently comes with shackles.
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You're right, he has chosen not to