One thing about those elbow-length gloves is that people will finish working with them, then reach inside their left glove with their contaminated right glove and gunk up the inside of it pulling it off. Keep your own pair, or if they're in a shared work area like a makerspace teach people how to use them properly.
They're disposable, and I always remove them by pulling from the fingers.
Yeah me too.. but some people don't because they don't understand what the point of gloves is.
Like when you're in a fast food restaurant and they spend five minutes awkwardly putting on gloves before making your sandwich, and then use their gloved hands to open the cash register and hand you your change.
Simple solution to the fast food thing: gloves on, make food and serve, ring out next person with gloves on, remove gloves, new gloves on, repeat.
I'm not a doctor, but I've seen this before.
It looks like Contact Dermatitis to me.
Back in my days as darkroom tech I'd work with a lot of different chemicals for developing film and paper. Some people could dunk their hands in the chemicals with no apparent effects. Others could get a few drops or touch equipment used in processing and develop a rash. Sometimes people would develop a sensitivity over time based on exposure.
I've gotten resin on my hands accidentally with zero noticeable effect. I try to minimize exposure of course, but a little counter goes off in my head every time it happens. I've developed chemical sensitivity over time. Eventually with B&W paper fixer if I got any on my hands, I'd immediately taste it in my mouth.
Edit: After closer reading - How can you make sure this was due to fume inhalation and not touching a surface that was contaminated by a small amount of resin? We'd have to clean the lab like mad to make sure people didn't pick up trace amounts of chemicals.
You've gotten it on your hands without effect because photopolymer resins are a cumulative toxin. With enough exposure, practically everyone will become sensitized. I can confirm I didn't have skin contact because I wore my PPE for the entire duration of work- collected them from outside the work area, removed them outside the work area. The only contact I had was any seepage around my mask (no mask is perfect), plus inhaling the fumes coming off my gloves while I removed my PPE.
photopolymer resins are a cumulative toxin
I'm curious on your sources around the toxicity of these resins?
All the research i've done on it has suggested its not a significant risk.
edit: asking for a source shouldn't be downvoted imo, its just ignorance to take a positive assertion of something as fact without asking. Common sense suggests its ok to ask, no? Should we just live based purely on the posts of redditors being taken as factual?
You've done pretty poor research, then. Even the resin manufacturers list significant risks in their health data sheets. I'm at work, but I'll post some sources tonight.
Right.
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0183/2285/files/MSDS_v7.pdf
Stuff like that.
Which doesn't exactly carry the insane level of warnings this reddit has.
Even with companies generally being on the side of caution...
Respiratory Protection: Respirators are generally not needed under normal conditions of use
Its also still on the level of "just wash" rather than "seek medical assitance" etc
Skin Contact: Remove contaminated clothing and rinse contact area thoroughly with soap and water.
Like I get it, i'm not telling people to just throw it around and not care but the level of "don't ever get near it whatsoever" or "cumulative toxicity" just isn't reflected in any reports or studies I can find online at all.
Theres nothing actually saying, in any of the reports I can find, that the toxicity builds up and causes a stronger reaction over time or anything.
Its all just reddit posts and scare posts.
Yes, its an irritant and you shouldn't -try- to get it on yourself.
So is Isopropyl which carries all the same warnings about ingestion/contact/eyes/skin/etc
You can say I've done pretty poor research once you can show the reports.
"significant risks" needs to be understood for what it is.
Isopropyl has caused some huge issues itself...
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+116
Keeping that in mind, show me the reports once you have them, i'm super interested in actual studies that show the health risks so I can understand what i'm working with. As anyone should be.
edit: 11 hours later no sources, hoping OP forgot or got busy. It happens.
People blindly upvote these posts and its causing a ton of FUD and "Guess i'll never get resin printers" stuff. I don't care because I care if the market gets it sales but more because people are not being critical or willing to question something.
Sources for this stuff is super important. I've looked quite a lot and generally its "yeah don't get it on yourself" but same ratings as isopropyl or cleaning chemicals that people have zero real worries about.
I'm not trying to be a dick. The evidence just isn't there for this level of concern.
edit2: Been a couple days almost. Still no source or info posted. This has been standard for these assertions. People claim that i've failed to do research and its super easy to find and then provide absolutely nothing.
https://www.elegoo.com/tutorial/Elegoo%20Photopolymer%20Resin%20MSDS%20Repor%2020180831.pdf
This is another study which shows that its not super healthy and all but its rated about the same as a TON of cleaning chemicals people use in a household without ANY concerns.
OP has been called out before for these accusations too but continues to spread fear over it AND refuses to back up any of it with studies.
Your warning is in the document you are linking to. The MSDS you found uses the old DPD system to classify the product. Unlike the new CLP system, DPD does not warn against chronic effects well, and that is in part why DPD is being phased out now. On top of that, this MSDS is also poorly made. However, you can deduce from part 2 of the MSDS that the product is classified with R43. Ie the whole product is classified with R43, and not just the individual ingredients. I work with chemical OHS and this is a big warning sign for me. I would very much follow up on whether my colleagues are using the product correctly and whether the product is needed at all.
The problem with these monomers is that the allergy can develop after a short exposure. It's not like nickel allergy where you can handle nickel products without risk, but should not use nickel jewelry. Allergy to resin may in som cases occur after a short exposure. Therefore, many countries, at least in the part of the world in which I live, have strict rules for the professional use of similar types of products, and the use is being monitored.
It is regrettable that OP has handled the product in an inappropriate way, but good that he shares his experience.
R43
Perhaps my understanding is much more rudimentary to yours however I have a follow up.
The R43 classification seems to be the focus to some degree.
That same classification is applicable to https://www.amazon.com/Pink-Stuff-Miracle-Purpose-Cleaner/dp/B00DU5SRIY as per https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/cdn.webfactore.co.uk/sr_392478.pdf
Not regarded as a health or environmental hazard under current legislation
I'm curious on why thats a concern that the whole product is listed.
Completely separate second part...
The CLP/DPD system stuff, fair point. Some looking into it explains why I saw vastly different MSDS when researching myself. I wasn't aware of the vastly different and updated system.
The key difference, in this instance, is the H317 part.
(found in this report https://cdn-3d.niceshops.com/upload/file/PHOTOCENTRIC-3D-RESIN-DLP-FIRM-MSDS-English.pdf and various others)
For those who likely don't know...
H317 May cause an allergic skin reaction.
Bingo you'd think!
Except looking into what H317 is and what other things have that same Warning.
https://chemhat.org/en/chemical/5989-27-5/d-limonene?inline=true#sources-chronic
d-Limonene. Fun little thing that rang a bell so I looked into it more.
https://www.amazon.com/Jarrow-Formulas-D-Limonene-Stimulates-Detoxifying/dp/B0025PX4JC?th=1
Turns out its this stuff (among a bunch of others) which I found quite interesting to read into.
I just want to say, right now, i'm not trying to be a dick. I'm genuinly trying to learn what I should and shouldn't do and will always take evidence into account when evaluating that opinion. New evidence = new evaluation = sometimes new opinion.
I feel like theres something i'm simply not understanding though. Theres no big warning signs or labels coming out of any of these studies that suggests this level of FUD is realistic or acceptable for general use.
Please don't take this as some attack. Its simply an attempt to understand if i'm missing something obvious.
edit: throwing upvotes at you though. I love the info you've given me and the fact you're addressing my concerns rather than just parroting generics. Genuinely love it, its creating a discussion and hopefully an understanding between two completely separate people and that shit is what the internet is about
I also want to make it clear that I am not advocating against this type of printer and you are definitely not a dick about it. :-) I understand your confusion about the classification, and you are heading down a rabbit hole of strange rules that will often make you ask, can it really be legal.
Let me start by addressing why I am interested in whether the entire product is rated R43/H317. When a Product is rated R43/H317 it means there is a probability, not an absolute certainty, of it being allergenic. Often this probability is not high and many times it is low, but for R43 to be there it must be significant. The classification is structured in such a way that if the concentration of a ingredient with R43 is low enough, the product wil not be classifyed R43/H317, and the probability of the overall product being allergenic will not be significant anymore. At the university, we often said "dilution is the solution to pollution" for fun. However, in my workplace we are also interested in the classification of the ingredients, and usually remove products containing allergenic ingredients, despite the fact that the total product is not classified with R43 / H317. It's a choice we've made, and our supplier does not always understand it.
When you look at the risk of a product, you combine the probability with the consequence. Consequences of allergies are often considered high, and with a significant probability, the risk will be high enough to investigate the use of the product. Of course, the easiest way to change the risk is to remove it completely, but if you can't, you can modify one of the parameters. Here, the easiest parameter is the probability, as one can use personal protective equipment to lower the probability so it is not significant, thereby reducing the risk.
My point is that you should first look at the value of using the product, and if it is high enough, you must minimize the risk by using personal protective equipment.
With regard to limonene, it is completely true that it is allergenic. However, it is often used in such small quantities that the risk is very low. This also means that the total product is not classified R43 / H317. In my workplace we avoid all products with limonene as it is only used as perfume, and therefore not necessary.
Sorry to jump on this train so late, hopefully you guys still use Reddit and can respond… I’ve been using FDM printers for a while now and I’m making some serious considerations about getting a resin printer that will allow me to make highly detailed DnD minis and other such prints with fine detail. That being said, I want to make sure I go about this the correct way and take all the proper precautions and setup necessary to achieve results and to do so safely…especially after reading through this post….
That being said, one of the printers I am considering buying is the Elegoo Mars 3. I don’t really have a price point set in stone…still at the stage of gauging what I can get for what price, if I need post processing equipment and, if so, how much that will cost me. Recommendations for other systems are welcome! I think my main concern is quality/resolution (I believe the Mars 3 has a resolution of 35 microns), ease of leveling/use (I’ve spent an hr leveling a stubborn fdm machine with a feeler gauge only to find out it was too close to the print bed…), and safety of use.
I am concerned about my printing space too…this printer would be located on a table in an upstairs loft space with a door. About 4-6ft from where it would be located is where I normally sit at my desk to use my computer. I would LIKE to be able to run prints and use my computer at the same time, but I’d also really like to not have any allergic reactions because of it. Does this sound like something that may be possible? Would I need to ensure the door stays open while printing and that would be good enough? Can I keep the door closed if I wear some kind of mask or something in the room? Are there lingering effects if I start a print, close the door (to keep cats out), and remain out of the room until the print finishes? What about post processing? Are there any concerns there I should be aware of? How necessary IS post processing and are there any recommendations for equipment/procedures I should know of?
What is PPE?
Great question, acronyms suck! Personal protection equipment. Gloves, mask, goggles, face shield, work coat etc.
User deleted comment
4.8y
He's on dat sticky icky
.... near UV resin.
I liked Resin when it first came out but the few times I've tried it it wasn't as good. Something definitely changed at the production side and it's never as clean as it once was.
Think I'll stick with FDM for now
Thanks so much for this info. All too many people don't take my warnings seriously when I talk about venting fumes etc.
It will be good to have something to link to.
Would you might if I add your post to the resin page on the subreddit wiki?
Sure, happy to be an itchy martyr if it keeps others from making the same mistakes.
Haha! Thank you so much! For your candor and humour. :)
Moderator removed comment
4.8y
Can you expand upon your thoughts?
I'd love to get a deeper understanding, and some examples of what you mean by lack of moderation, mismoderation, praising trolls and being past the point of return.
This doesn't seem in line with the bulk of the feedback I've observed about the community and our mod team, so I'd like to better understand what your see as the pain points in the community and your ideas for their resolution.
I don't feel like expanding, especially to one who bullied me here with false bullying accusation.
Double especially because I've just pointed out the biggest problem of this subreddit.
Are you referring to when I removed the comment where you were shaming a guy for wearing blue nail polish?
Nothing false about that accusation, and it's not bullying to tell someone to stop bullying.
It was a very short interaction, I removed your comment and replied "This comment has been removed. Bullying is not tolerated here".
It's unfortunate you've sat on this so long, because clearly it's been on your mind. I would have been happy to explain it at the time, also happy to do so now if you like, if you want clarity on anything about it.
I'd also still be keen to hear how this fits into your complaints about lack of moderation, praising trolls, encouraging consumerism and being past the point of return.
Along with your suggestions for improvement.
So you've removed my message with false accusation and now you're just telling more lies to cover yourself.
How nice and so very expected.
Also, I really am still keen to better understand what you mean by lack of moderation, praising trolls, encouraging consumerism and being past the point of return. As well as your suggestions for improvement.
Nothing false about the accusation, and no lies.
Here's a screenshot of your comment: https://i.imgur.com/s2JGVLO.png
And here's my reply, still up: https://www.reddit.com/r/3Dprinting/comments/clo0er/my_hangprinter_for_clay_me_for_scale/evx6i7j/
Note the extremely heavy downvotes, many people thought it was inapropriate.
It's rare for me to see blue nails on a guy, not that I'm against it, and I thought for a second it had something to do with injury related (cover up) to craft (painting) or something else, I'm pretty sure he wasn't shaming him.
Maybe the OP would have responded like this:
Comment guy: Why are your nails blue?
-OP:I painted them blue
-Comment guy: Oh I see :)
Especially since the pic isn't very clear, looked glitched.
"Note the extremely heavy downvotes, many people thought it was inapropriate."So the downvotes (probably by some trolls as the nature of most reddit users) changed the context by downvoting = the context of humilation, other downvotes followed along misunderstanding the initial downvote and it snowballed.
See the emote after the question?
Have you seen beardmans previous dealings with anyone slightly different?
Context matters. It wasn't a simple question.
I browsed through all his history nothing seems personal or insulting (?!) , hope you don't take this seriously, just saying.
You're politically correct about the emote, I didn't take it that way, not everyone means that bad, I'm not defending him, I'm just sad to see such sensitivity on this sub and sjw (not you or anyone in this context) I'd rather pretend he meant good UNTIL he does or says something that puts him in context clear as the sun. Makes me feel uncomfortable next time I would be typing a comment.
This is the definition of lies to cover lies.
It was you and them who was shaming him, not me.
Yet, instead of doing anything about this hostility, you've decided to just blame me for asking but a harmless question.
It's really good you hate it here so much, so I don't feel as bad about removing you. Who am I kidding? I don't feel bad at all! You've been reported like 20 times, and are one of the most obnoxious, toxic people here that has a rep with some of the other assholes on the same list as being "helpful," so we've given you a pass for a few of your more douchey indiscretions. But, that's over. Don't let the door hit your ass, alright?
Do me a favor and don't try to play lawyer in modmail to appeal this later, ok? This has been a long time coming, I'm just finally sick of your shit.
I'm glad mods and admin are tolerant, although this is adding slight toxicity to the sub, its good to know that there is no abuse of power.
This is the definition of lies to cover lies.
I'm sorry, at this point I'm extremely confused.
I've provided screenshots and links to verify everything I've said.
Yet, instead of doing anything about this hostility,
I did do something about the hostility. I removed your comment.
you've decided to just blame me for asking but a harmless question.
It wasn't a harmless question. It was clearly inapropriate, and many people believed so. Again, it was severely downvoted. So much so it doesn't even have a controversial tag.
It was you and them who was shaming him, not me.
Can you provide evidence to back up this claim? I literally have no idea what you're talking about.
These are my only replies to the OP of that thread:
1 :
Woah! So cool! Have you got any pics of things you've made with it?
2 (this one was guilded btw):
That's so so cool!
Are the plans open source?
I know a potter with a degenerative neural disorder, and I know shes been dabbling with the idea of getting a clay printer so she can continue her work.
I'd love to help her build something like this.
:D thank you so so much! This is wonderful
I'm having a hard time seeing how any of my comments could be misconstrued as "shaming him".
The fact you're getting downvoted by the same toxic people who pretend not to be is beautifully poetic to me.
100% agree with this statement, sadly. This subreddit is a shitpile for actual value in 3DPrinting tech
Have to agree, my first post related to leadscrew upgrade before/after for an old printer got around -5 downvotes before getting up to ~+8 after a week, i was confused so now they're just useless numbers to me.
Though the subreddit isn't so shit all the time, pretty rare but it happens like most subs, blame reddit's infra not the sub.
Lol now some people are browsing my history and downvoting that post! :DWas 10 now 8, yay
Uwa its up again
What you're seeing with the numbers jumping around is called vote fuzzing. Reddit does it to help stop brigading as it makes it harder for shadow banned accounts to tell when they have been shadowbanned.
This isn't a user issue, it's the normal functioning of the site.
I see thanks, how much would it jump? would it go under 0 like it did?
Not if it was entirely upvoted, but if you got one downvote early on then yes, it could.
Ah I got it, thank you for all the effort on making the sub better for no return beforehand.
Oh, I get plenty of return.
I get to help folk achieve the things they want to achieve using the tech I adore.
That's very rewarding to me. :)
I've had the same experiences. People complain about reddit being a circlejerk sometimes, but holy fuck this sub is utterly insane. If you say anything that can even be misconstrued as negative, you will get brigaded fucking HARD. And people hold a grudge since the community is relatively small.
Even formal posts and comments are not tolerated without being heavily sugar coated.
"Can you show us the profile settings?" (-2) "Wow nice print, cant believe how good this printer is, can you post the profile settings?" (8) Those 8 upvotes are probably e.g:Ender 3 circle jerks.
Functional print sub: "Care to post your profile?" (4) Complete opposite.
One could say this thread is as toxic as resin. :D :D :D
Oh those downvotes are probably due to lack of an emote, I fixed it Hint: its a joke.
You think everyone is after karma? nope. Get down on it.
That resin gets to ya, gets even worse if you get the same spot again
Wasn't even skin contact! Posted a detailed description comment just after you replied, this is a systemic reaction from brief respiratory contact. Once you're sensitized, you're basically permafucked if you want to keep working with SLA. PPE is serious business.
Damn I thought the chemical rash I got on my finger was bad, but this being just through respiratory contact is crazy.
I'm gonna start making stickers that say WEAR A MASK ASSHOLE and stick them on every SLA printer I encounter.
I'd definitely put them on any that are inside, whole reason I set mine up in my leantoo so I could vent that stuff out
Yep, good call there.
Is there a formal test for SLA resin allergy (like with food allergies)?
I have that, but FAR worse on my elbows, and I work in an office that has three SLA printers operating with no external ventilation (fume-hood or otherwise). It's got me thinking that the fumes are circulating through the AC, and maybe this could be the cause? For reference: I have changed my diet, to little effect.
Jesus, that's a serious OSHA violation in the US. I would not be surprised if the printers are causing your issue. Unfortunately the only test I know of is to end exposure for ~1wk and see if condition improves. I would definitely talk to whoever is responsible for the printers being used in such a way, and remember that you have the right to file a complaint against your employer if they don't make changes.
Edit: the above assumes you're in the US, but similar codes apply in the EU and most industrialized nations.
I am in the US.
If there's a formal test I can run beforehand: I'd like to do that; anything that provides something a bit more concrete than: "the 3D printers in a separate department down the hall are kicking off fumes that might be making me ill" would be nice to have going into such a conversation.
Not sure regarding tests, but definitely worth looking into before starting a conversation. You can also find safety data sheets for the resins / printers as another useful resource. There are also plenty of studies regarding toxicity of photopolymer resins and other single-part epoxies.
I got that and I'm still waiting for my 3D printer to be delivered... It's fall and air is getting dryer...
I don't want to downplay this post in any way because it's super important to protect yourself from exposure to uncured sla resin and fumes (and solvents in general), but it is important to understand that you may never be sure what the real cause of a rash is for sure.
Then if you work with this all day, there are laws protecting you and very clear laws that should oblige your employer to provide proper air quality.
If your employer doesn't take this seriously, you may want to change his mind because long term exposure may also lead to cancer and him getting fined by the government (if you hopefully live in a country that protects workers)
Damn. I just recently acquired a used Nobel 1.0 and have been loving the print quality, but not the smell and mess of post processing. Have been FDM printing for years with beloved PLA. After seeing this and other posts on the topic it makes me a bit worried, since my printer is in a small enclosed workshop with no active ventilation unless I open the door (with 110F plus temps, it is not often during the summer). Thinking I might fabricate an active system to vent fumes from the enclosure to the outside of the shop and keep the cover over the resin/print area at all times, then don the old mask and open the door when removing for post. I already wear the mask and gloves when handling prints pre-cure, so I am good there.
Absolutely build or purchase a ventilation setup.
Is it safe after it’s cured?
Depends on the resin, but theoretically it's pretty safe. By "cured", I don't mean straight off the printer. Parts should be cured fully in sunlight or under a UV lamp after printing. The dust is still harmful if sanding or doing other post-processing though.
Yikes! I had no idea! Thanks for the PSA. Don’t think I’ll be going sla any time soon.
I like the quality I get from resin but the fumes, mess and clean up just put me off using it.
Haven't touched my resin printer in over a year.
It has its own uses where fdm cannot replace tho.
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http://imgur.com/gallery/35J964O more images, rash is plenty of other places but I'd prefer not to show y'all those.
For those not familiar: the photopolymer resins used in SLA printers (especially those used in cheap printers like Anycubic, sparkmaker, elegoo etc) where the lower intensity UV requires more aggressively reactive resins) are cumulative toxins. That means (simplified) that for the vast majority of people, enough exposure will make you allergic to the resin. This can manifest both through skin reactions and systemic reactions (what you see here- a rash in all high bloodflow areas of the body, caused by fume exposure).
I got this rash from working on an anycubic photon while wearing elbow-length nitrile gloves, a face shield, goggles and a hybrid vapors mask. It happened because when I was young and stupid, I didn't wear that gear. These days, if the resin is bad enough even the brief microexposure that comes from breathing the fumes coming off my gloves while removing PPE is enough to cause a reaction. If you want to be easily able to keep using resin printers (or any epoxy resin) by the ripe old age of 22, please invest in some good PPE and ventilation when you get your first resin printer. Trust me, it's not worth the time/money saved upfront.
ALSO, since I know there are plenty of people in the 3d printing industry that peruse this sub, please don't market your resins as "safe" to appeal to family buyers. Looking at you, elegoo. It's not only irresponsible, it's a crime and if enough people end up like me you will find yourself facing a serious lawsuit. Once again, consequences are not worth the upfront "benefits" for your companies or the industry.